Can Man Create By Want & Desire Alone, Or Is The Stuff Already There?

Yes , in old mythological stories we used to hear stories how gods disapeared from one place and appeared on other place , today we talk of teleportation , actually it was mind that was travelling from one place to another and not the whole body explaining that drama .

Been thinking about your question. Seems related but it jumps the queue reality wise. The exploration here is one on the creation of what has been designed and plotted out by creating a place for it to be measured. That act of creating a place for it and by intense analytical process knowing how it is to be built.

Then by will / desire it dies indeed appear:

When seeking the light speed or tracking what is not there one will probably need a different thread to explore it. I have not thought of things much beyond my sphere of influence. Had an interesting reaction when doing the Universal exploration once though, but it's off topic.

My request here is rather humble, the existance of a subatomic partical. Can you think up a way to determine whether the Scientist put it together or just found it?

My own viewpoint looking from the subatomic level I could not quite get past the molecular level of inderstanding and see how things are put together. So I am not there yet.

You might try this site. It is one of the best for elementry understanding of particle physics.

Yes thanks, I have been down that rout when doing the atomic chart in Physics class. I also was into electronics so valences and conductivity is not a mystery.

I mis stated my understanding about that level. must have been thinking of something else.

But thanks anyway I will look it over.

OK. Time to get freaky on your ass! I'm assuming your cousin knows something you don't. Specifically, that being quantum physics.

Quantum physics is really, really weird! Much of quantum physics states that the observer actually affects the experiment. For example, Schroedinger's cat. Quantum physicists tend to agree that the cat actually exists in a state of "alive-deadness" until the box is opened and someone looks - at which point the state collapses into one and only one of two possibilities. There are many more examples like this one in the quantum world where reality seems to be based on observation. Now, let's turn the weirdness up to 11...

Consider the fact that the only object known that is based on quantum physics AND is aware of it, is the human brain. So, if the human brain is aware of its own quantum nature, and that thoughts are manufactured by quantum processes, is it possible that thoughts could possibly work in the opposite direction? In other words, can this organic, quantum, thinking machine affect another system that's based on quantum physics - that other system being reality.

So, here you have several individuals, like minded, and each possessing intimate, detailed mathematical knowledge about how the quantum world works. Each is thinking about not only the existence of a particular particle, but actually describing how it is constructed. Can it be that all that concentrated information works in reverse through the quantum thinking machine to bring that object into existence?

Furthermore, consider that these collective quantum thinking machines do not posses the raw energy to bring into existence, say, a coffee cup, for example. However, it would seem practical to me that they may be able to generate enough energy to create a subatomic particle whose lifetime is measured in the realm of 10^-20 seconds!

I believe it is something to at least think about. I think quantum physicists may think of it from time-to-time, as well. But, mind you, be careful of what you wish for. It may just come true!!!

Hi, Vermin...

"Quantum physicists tend to agree that the cat actually exists in a state of "alive-deadness" until the box is opened and someone looks - at which point the state collapses into one and only one of two possibilities."

What if a man is inside the box instead of a cat???... Is he "dead and alive" too (a kind of zombie I suppose)???... What if a cat opens the box and observe the state (of the other cat inside the box) instead of a man???... Does this state collapse when it is "observed" by the human's consciousness???... Or a cat's consciousness is enough to lead to the collapse???... What about the consciousness of a worm???... Is there just the need of a living creature in order to take place a collapse???... Or is this the privilege of a man (e.g. the human's consciousness)???...

My personal point of view is that there is no need for any kind of living creature or any kind of consciousness in order to have the collapse of a complex quantic state... I think that-maybe- is just a matter of scale... When a large number of paricles interact to each other (i.e. for the formation of an object) the complex state is breaking down making the "ghostly" particles more "real" and "clear" (concerning their properties)...

It's a very big issue for discussion though...

The issue may lye in who set up the experiment in the first place. If the box is somehow opened mechanically, the situation is still the same before someone takes a look*. This is an experiment. I do not doubt that all sorts of quantum activity occurs all by itself without humans being involved - If a tree falls in the forest... Yes, sound waves are produced. The argument is based on some ass*&%e philosopher determining that "Sound" is something that is intrinsically human. I think we would agree to kick his ass!

*This is all part of the Bohr-driven "Copenhagen Interpretation," which is dying a slow death since that bully Bohr and his disciples are dying. Check it out it's a historic story of scientific tragedy.

"This is all part of the Bohr-driven "Copenhagen Interpretation,"..."

I don't like it either... But, surprisingly, is the current "valid" interpretation... I thing it's convinient for the majority of physisists to accept this... They just feel relaxed and let themeselves to apply the equations of Quantum Physics without worring about the "inner explanation" of the quantic phenomena... It's so sad...

The interesting thing is that the Copenhagen Interpretation is really starting to die and make run for some very promising interpretations that may lead to new insights.

Good real Good:

From the perspective of the Cat "Who is my Daddy?" The act of opening the box displays me in all of my fine glory. Did I exist before the box was opened? You bet you sweet Bippy I existed. Some nut just placed me in the box, or I grew up there. By the way, the box can hold one and one only type of tabby, gender selected, neutered, with a flea collar, and a cute little bell.

The Box in this case being the Quantum Physics particle measuring / recording device mentioned earlier. So We now have the box and a camera hooked up to it and will takes a snapshot when the box opens.

Did the Box filter me out of all of that random probability of existence? Did the Engineering / Scientific team declare my existence by building the box?

Or was I already there and the box just happened to fit me when it was built? Also was my brothers and cousins and shirt tail cousins who came before me also blessed with the same introduction into this reality as I have been?

I Dun Know Quantum Physics, but I do know that a whole lot of thinking, and planning, followed up with a truck load "I can do this job" works wonders for me in my creative moments.

It's not that you came into existence within the box... You were purposefully put into the box with a device that had a 50/50 chance of killing you.

In quantum physics, before the box is opened again, you exist as a cat in a state of "alive-deadness." You are both alive and dead at the same time. This state does not collapse until someone opens the box and takes a peek. When that is done you then exist in one and only one of two possible states - either you lucked out and you're alive or you screwed the pooch and you're a goner!

My personal point of view is that there is no need for any kind of living creature or any kind of consciousness in order to have the collapse of a complex quantic state... I think that-maybe- is just a matter of scale... When a large number of paricles interact to each other (i.e. for the formation of an object) the complex state is breaking down making the "ghostly" particles more "real" and "clear" (concerning their properties)...

Exactly! There is a recent relevant article showing at which point a system departs form a quantum behavior to enter the good-old world of classical mechanics:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/31763

Thanks, Tkot... ... Very interesting article... The quantic state of an electron (in this "two splits" experiment) begin to collapse (transition to a classic state) by the presence of (and the interaction with) just one nearby electron... (it's even simpler and more amazing than I thought)...

Maybe, finally, we are close to the "inner" understanding of Quantum Physics... ...

"Can the will of man influence?"

Thought moves electrons and can influence.

" Can the will of man create?"

Not the elements. These are the tools. But yes he can create. After all we are made in the likeness of the "Creator"

"Can the will of man influence the appearance?"

Only if he looks and can see.

"Can the will of man influence the occurrence of matter or atomic objects"

well yah....everyting we are made up of and everything we do changes/ moves/ affects etc things(atoms objects)

Can the will of man influence the creation of matter that did not exist before the idea came to one of those geniuses???

Nope! It was already there. (They simply could not see). The only way they are geniuses is if they know that they don't know everything. To assume they know everything and think they are gods is the proof they cannot see.

The main problem with your premis is that the opposite must also be considered. We would be able to make an object become non-existent. In this case, all the nay sayers would have destroyed the universe by now.

I get your message, but the question was not about making it go away.

Just the act of creation, and you have a pretty good list of answers but pinning down the elusive creation of the sub-atomic partical, and the next one, and the next one, and the next one created and measured and recorded each and every time well I do not see that you have answerd the question.

Thanks for your opinions though. We all got opinions, I am full of em.

everyone knows the world is flat and rides on the back of a giant turtle. We all are assured that the earth is the center of the universe and the sun, stars, moon, all revolved about the earth, mankind set for dominion over all at God's command.

And the turtle is standing on a platform of some particle I just wished into existence!

Umm; Yeh:

I try to not get into that deep spiritual connection when thinking real world object stuff.

The discussion is about an observation of either very marvelous engineering, an act of creation / or movement, or just dumb luck. All this occurring in a very consistent repeatable manner.

I do not think anybody asked for belief, just an answer a guess is fine also.

I will interpret your response as a very sound "I Dun Know"

Thanks for your response to my posting. I never said I believed it either, "Just looking for the Facts Mam, Just the Facts".

Perhaps particles are infinite, just pick one?

Regards JD.

Indeed:

Once I pondered aliong that track, not having a foundation solid enough I could not take it to it's logical conclusion. Might you have some insite there?

No special insight or knowledge. Just thinking along the lines if particle are infinite ( a particle is made of smaller particles infinitum) then they can combine randomly to create a vast array of sub particles. Then survival becomes the name of the game, a bit like the creation of life forms? So I suppose that raises the question can we create a particle but it lacks the ability to survive?

Regards JD.

Cool theory:

The particals survuval might be questionable, but that is another discussion. I am still searching for that answer. You know that this discussion was started as an open ended one? But if this is possible then there is no real limit you know?

I mean if this is possible then that elusive complete control of all that we see and experience can be under the most humble persons complete control. Mabe there is real freedom is in our future after all???

Who knows the future?

"This is nothing new. You used to call it sorcery"

--Lawnmower Man

Hi there.

Could it be that I once heard of ants that were able to change their excrements to deal with sugar hidden inside a plastic container. They learnt how to adjust and made some thing up which hadn't existed before. Desolving the plasic and getting to the sugar in the end.

It should be imaginable (being on a higher level than ants) that we can create some atomic or subatomic particles if we really need to. Willpower has a lot to do with it. If ants get their sugar we can get what ever we can imagine. I know that ants create molecules and not subatomic matter but are we ants?

Sorry, I was too lazy to google.

Looks like something that should be supported. Very interesting. Ky.

"If ants get their sugar we can get what ever we can imagine."

And frequently do, to our woe!

Things were getting stale so I pumped it up again.

To my estimation this has been covered as good as it is going to get. Unless a Physics specalist has an observation and fact one way or the other. Actually since it was mentioned so many years ago and time has passed, it was a mental exercise

A fun one though, Other people do have opinions and it is quite interesting to see how facts ans opinions intertwine to make what our own distinct understandings are.

If ants get their sugar we can get what ever we can imagine.

I imagine something too, and I feel that if I think over it really hard it will eventually come true. So here it is:

I imagine a world where anybody else could NOT create just any conceivable particle out of the blue. This is dangerous stuff... I leave that privilege to myself only.

yaa , will power is what keeps us going , but these powers are created by / for humans only , correct me if this wrong , ants can go any where to have there bite of sugar , but not risk themselves if hurdles like liquid , heat or likes , this there basic programming done by nature they too change there bio-chemistry as required but that is a different theory of evolution , we humans do over ride natures laws sometimes to achieve something....... revolution perhaps

How do we know?! The population of the zoo of subatomic particles just reached our awareness within the later half of the last century (20th). Before that, we had no idea that they were there or how they behaved, and we're still counting.

I think that points to the fact that we really don't know squat about the structure of reality or our relationship to it.

we humans do over ride natures laws sometimes to achieve something

Now how are you going to do that? Over ruling natures laws. I have tried to keep to the aim of the original post and suddenly I find myself talking about sudden changes of natures laws. Me missus is ready to go. See Ya's. Ky.

Me too keeping original thread in mind am just ellobrating the example you set about ants , it is desire of human beings may you call curiosity ,aspire ,want that we decide with imagination and try to accompolish the task , about subatomic particles and quantum physics the ideas just poped up with more awarness about universe and its mystery we just don`t know how to detect it just quantative analysis , but we have to prove it it dosn`t exist either , we believe in extrateristrials somewhere in ocean of universe and spend handsome amount to track them or record signals ,than we hear on news or likes about somebody in remote place saw a flying soccer , okay that is a story talked and not proved ,but no one wants to believe absence of aliens and there superior technology to be non existant either , any way your are a sweet guy , now this is not anything to do with ants.......regards

it is desire of human beings may you call curiosity ,aspire ,want that we decide with imagination and try to accompolish the task ,

Hi vicas

This is all good but the need, the necessity is what makes new things. If you look at the metamorphoses of some Butterflies, to get away from the sugar ants for a moment, they go through all this to supply us with silk which we can't manufacture our selfs. For them, it is only supplying housing for the next Generation.

Us, being of a higher intelligence (not all of us, sorry) should and will be able to secure our seed and future to go on. I know the signs are not good which brings me back to the research that is been done in this area. They, depending on the need, will get hold of a Noble prize, but never be a creator. (Calm down vermin I didn't say The Creator.)

I strongly believe that we will not create but always be on the side of the discoverer. If you like, we could be the disturbed cat and the observer at the same time, sometimes.

Now to the Aliens. Mate, I sometimes dive and am that surprised about the abundance of Aliens I need not go outer space. Evolution has a speed of its own for every one and every thing any where. Let them look/search for subatomic matter, or what ever, and I will go out and find (every time) some other Alien. They too have developed molecules for their protection and in the case of some octopus create light and display patterns which could not be copied or imitated by humans. They must have a strong need to do this in just that way,shape or form. Watching them, in their environment, makes me feel me insignificant.

We are creating our own big next step. Just in time the change will come.

Vicas, I do have more pessimistic days so make of it what you will.

I think we should all be invited to see the hardware/software being used in the experiments on site to get a better understanding of methods and practices involved. Just for a week's seminar. Have a chat with the dudes. Hands on stuff.

Search and you will find. (sorry vermin)

Any one interested in paying for it? Have a good one. Ky.

I just got word from Bigfoot, Nessie, and all the people of Atlantis... Man! Are they pissed at you!!!

Kind of like those little gnat flys that can appear in a vacuum...?

Maybe Cavewomen (see below) thought "Damn I want these freaking Dinosaurs to be gone."

Perhaps Jesus thought he could feed a crowd of hundreds with a few fish and loafs of bread. I mean, I have been around a keg of beer at a golf tournament that I can guarantee no one wanted to run out....it seemed like it kept refilling itself.

Columbus really....I mean really, really, really wanted the world to be round...seriously. (even though the vikings probably already did that at some time or another)

Women's excuses for spending money, only problem with that theory is I can't ever seem to find anything of substance that justifies where the money went. It's like the reverse of the topic. Women think it and it dissappears!!!!

Men thought they could fly, walk on the moon, float underwater, catch lightening on a key, instant global communications, someone mentioned gardening, etc.

I am sure there is something behind the discussion topic (i.e paint fumes ) and sounds like the discoveries ongoing hold some potential. Now, if they could find/create the worm that is going to eat a hole in our dimension, we would be in business.

Just thought of this...!!!!!!

If they are creating new sensors and electronics and are finding what they are looking for all the time...

It sounds to me like their sensitive sensors/ receivers and pre-amps are wide open (maximum gain) and they are simply picking up spurrious noise generated by their own electronics.

That's a definite possibility...

On the other hand, the specific particles could be popping out of the noise and into existence!

Ya Think it could be?

I have never postulated that this is so. just asked the question as it was posed to me years ago.

The finely tuned test equipment must be tuned each time exactly to differentiate the particles with so similar properties.

So how come they hit it dead nuts on each and every time, no misses in their postulation that the particle should be there?

They need a valid comparison.

They should be able to cover the sensor and get zero readings for an extended period to eliminate the possibilities of equipment generated noise.

But if they did that, a whole new Universe of particles might fly out!!!

And their funding with it!

Well that just goes without saying...

"Alright, the scientists have had their chance. You lot, clear out of here! Tell the Druids that they're are up next!"