Weekly Voting?

Where is this Voting to take place ?

At cr4, for the most interesting Topic or Post, or are you referring to Political Voting ?

Way back in the 1950's, when I was "growing up", I realized there were major problems with the Society and World I lived in.

As the years have gone by, the "Jigsaw Puzzle"of life, started to make a picture.

As more information has come to hand, some quite difficult to locate and copy, the puzzle pieces have become easier to place.

Thus now, after much research, I can see the pattern, or most of it.

That is why I later decided not to vote in Political or Civic matters, not at all.

No Census papers filled out, and so on.

I discovered Income Tax in over 150 jurisdictions/Countries, is entirely voluntary - yes, that is absolutely true.

So looking at Society is like riding one's horse into an old "Western Town" on a movie set.

The place seems busy, Saloons, stables, and so on, are on each side of the road, the honkytonk piano is playing, people walk along the boardwalks on either side.

It all looks very OK, until you open a front door to a building, and look out.

What you see is prairie grass, to the horizon - it is all a front.

That's why I see that Society is in the grip of others, well out of my actually improving things, except in a small non-political way.

After all, I am only passing through.....

Welcome SS(sparkstation)

I can see you'll be loads of fun!, you just got here & you're tearing a wide swath.

I can hardly wait to see what you'll say next.

You'll be an informative & unpredictable.

Look forward to learning from you.

Hiding in plain sight is definitly a viable option.

I was refering to political voting.

In Oregon we vote by mail. No fuss, no muss, no hanging chads, NO DUBIOUS COMPUTERS, no looking for your polling place or standing in line just to be told that you are at the wrong polling place. You receive an uncomplicated ballot in the mail, you fill it out and you mail it back in. If it is too late to mail it, you drop it off at the clerk's office in a specified recepticle. Once a week or once a month I would not find this an onerous task...to participate in the democratic process in a more meaningful way. It's a good idea and one that should be implemented. If our representatives were held immediately accountable (rather than every four or six years) by their constituents perhaps there would be better representation for the people.

The only thing that would militate against this idea is the representatives themselves implementing it. If you are in a state that has initiatives to place propositions on the ballot...it may have a chance.

Patty-cakes

You may enjoy another political discussion

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/14144?frmtrk=cr4sd#newcomments

Please register Patty-cakes

come on in the waters fine

Voting every week, month or year - I Decline with a positive NO - It would not improve governance. However I do something equivalent!

In SA each piece of new law (Act, regulation, strategy etc) must be published in draft form and comments must be invited.

Commenting on these drafts is actually hard work because relevant law must be taken into account. For example - To comment on a 20 page draft to end up with about 200 pages of parts of the constitution and law.

Participation: Out of a population of ±45m the number of comments seems to be below 100, In the recent school security amendment we were 9, and there was cases where I were the sole commenter.

Success rate : 100% in at least 1 and never below 40%.

I think it is much stronger than a mere vote - It is more like a multiple choice vote ( Yes, No, no-no, Maybe, Yes but, Get a life, Ag plz, S**t . . . . )

Doesn't that give too much influence to those that comment?

Here it's claimed that 1 email or phone call = 10'000 constituents on a national level.

Making participation difficult, perpetuates the rule of the rich & powerful.

Don't we need more participation?

Hello Garthh

"Making participation difficult, perpetuates the rule of the rich & powerful.

Don't we need more participation?"

If we carry that idea to its logical conclusion,we should be Voting continually, 24 hours each day, 7 days each week and so on.....

Suggestions?

Or is the world the best it can be?

Very powerful indeed but

It is consistent with our Constitution an law.

The power of decision is vested in the state.

If I don't agree with the result I have to approach the Constitutional court for a ruling.

It is however a pity that more people do not comment.

The sending of an email or letter to the Minister (Secretary) more or less serves the same purpose. It forces them to deal with the issue officially. (Our law states that a written request deserves a written reply).

I'm sure if we had to vote on things every week, we would eventually become so numb to this constant barrage, that people would start to propose local laws in the hope that they could stuff the ballots by getting all their cronies to pass it. Things would really get silly.

I'm not sure it's a good idea either!

people would start to propose local laws in the hope that they could stuff the ballots by getting all their cronies to pass it. Things would really get silly.

We have this situation already here, They're called propositions, get something on the ballot & spend a bunch of pr dollars to obscure the issue & get it passed.

How can we use this form of communication to make positive changes?

The system of comments may rectify the problem. Any new law must be published for comments and everybody will have a chance of commenting. Every comment must be considered. It do not work on a count of "votes' basis.

How are decisions made about the validity of comments? Commitee's of legislators?

Here the comment happens @ public meetings, which can preclude interested parties. if you can't go to the meeting=no input. The rules can be fairly restrictive, depending on the government involved examples: questions must be submited in advance, limited time frame, switching agendas @ the last minute.....

The system you are describing, has some very promising aspects!

any links where I could learn more?

We also have public meetings, work shops, talk shops, and whatever - actually useless.

The decisions are made by the Ministers, Portfolio committees of parliament, and parliament.

You can try going to the site www.gov.za

Batho pele - is the name of the concept.

Under documents you will find

1) documents for public comment

2) Bills - look under drafts 2007 and bills 2007 at the different versions of the Educational law. B33 - B33D (some of my proposals are included)

3) Acts - under 2000 look for PAJA Act 3 of 2000 and PAIA Act 2 of 2000

The 2 acts describe much of the process.

I Will compile a selection of provisions from other acts.

I see you are from Ca - California? I believe their legislator is on the ball.

California is both very liberal & very conservative @ the same time. The large cities LA, sanfransisco & the coastal areas are liberal, the farming areas conservative. The legislature has a liberal majority, but not enough to overcome conservative opposition to budgets & other spending measures that require 2/3 or 3/4 majorities for passage.

Many important issues, end up being decided through the ballot initiative process, This process can be problematic. The deciding factor in many of these campaigns are decided by the amount of advertising dollars used to oppose or support the various issues.

I remember providing you with links several months pertaining to the disclousure of various potentially hazardous substances[prop65].

If you read my original post I'm not actually advocating legislatively binding elections weekly, I'm wondering how to make public input more meaningful.

The 1st line is badly worded

The 2nd line is my actual intent

The title is somewhat misleading & designed to get your attention.

Hi Garth

The situation in SA differs a lot from Ca and America. Law applications and requirements will be solar systems apart.

In SA the national government is stronger and the provincial (State) is weak with less legislative powers. (I even suggested for the removal of the second level of legislator and it seems that they may do just that). (we had 4 provinces now 9). It seems sort of absurd that laws may drastically change by crossing an artificial boundary.

I am not politically affiliated to any party. I would say the ConsLibPract party would do it for me. What i don't

I have lost the link to Prop65 and would appreciate if you supply it again.

If prop65 is taken as an example. In our system any citizen can challenge any provision or clause in the proposal. The submission however need to be motivated properly (scientific, practical, constitutional, consistency etc). The legislator then has the prerogative of doing whatever to verify the claim and make a decision. (procedure levels are assigned according to the constitution).We also have a council of provinces and a council of traditional leaders to consider).

PS The national legislator may provide for different law for different areas.

http://www.oehha.ca.gov/prop65.html

I'm not sure if this was the link?

here's the bigger selection

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GWYA_en___US231&q=prop65

I'm independant [non affiliated]

I would hope for a system run by qualified informed professionals, hopefully able to act in an impartial fashion.

I would imagine that many of the political structures are in a state of change in SA

I don't have a clear picture of the state of affairs.

Hendrik,

Fantastic posts dude. I am a proud South African, but had no idea how to comment (or even knew that I may comment). Thank you for the information. With more people like you (and hopefully me, from now on), we might even get to live in the country we believe exists under all the corruption and crime.

I listened to the RAW Christmas wish this morning and was again disgusted with the crime situation. For those of you who have no idea. Every year from late November to mid December a radio station here does a Christmas wish list. Every listener can send a wish for someone else, and they try to grant every wish entered. This morning a woman's sister sent in a wish to give her sister, whose daughter 20 year old sister was murdered, something that can help her to smile again. I was disgusted to think that these murderers have the right to take someone else's life and get virtually no punishment. I will do all that is in my power to make the lives for these people difficult and help the victims as far as I can.

Sorry for the tirade, but I needed a way to vent this anger, and it seemed like a good place. If you have any ideas how we as a society can help victims and make life difficult for offenders, e-mail me at tc@envirosteel.com.

Regards,

TC

Information about democracy in Switzerland would be most illuminating on this topic.

I think it would be a wonderful idea here in the USA, that is if the politicians ever paid any attention to what the electors wanted done. Unfortunately, I believe that many of them are too connected to the lobbyists to care.

I dont mean to digress about politics in the US, but a thought has been recurring in my mind recently and I thought that I would throw it out there for comments.

There is a lot of concern registered by those that follow politics about the poor turnout at the polls come election time. This concern arises after almost every election and no one yet has come up with an answer as to why this situation exists. Most countries holding free elections exhibit higher levels of voter turnout.

My contention is that the voters "en masse" have grown weary of the fact that the politicians from both major parties offer no real observed differences in programs, or problem solutions. The development of an alternative 3rd party CANNOT occur because of the costs of mounting a program. Therefore, many people see the US political process as a waste of time and money. So why vote?

Any thoughts?

Vote for the 3rd party candidate of your choice!

it may not make any difference in today's election.

#s count, don't vote for the lesser of 2 evils

say no to big budget special interest backed crooks!

Better to back a losing cause than have no opinion.

This is where use of the power to recall your representative would be appropriate. While it is a drastic measure, if a representative routinely flies in the face of the wishes of the majority of his/her constituents...his/her voting record will spell out what the people should do. We have been too docile in allowing our representatives to go their own way with no thought of what is best for the people or the nation. There is no honest debate of the issues and the people are mislead by slogans, jingles and sound bites. If we don't grow up and become responsible engaged adults we end up with a sorry mess on our hands wondering "What happened."

Meanwhile, the lobbyists stay well informed, on top of their game and grease the wheels. They represent specific, powerful interests and they direct the country where they want it to go...people be d*mned. Maybe that is how it always has been...but it does not always have to be. The question then is...who are the constituents...those who vote...or those who pay??

Patty-cakes

While I am in total agreement with you and my mode for voting or financially supporting the big two parties is NOT TO support them, the fact is that only the big money candidates can get into office because (1.) the lobbyists provide the $$$ necessary to buy media time, and (2.) few people are gutsy enough to follow after decent candidates because they realize it is basically a lost cause. [Case in point is Ross Perot. He was likely the one person who had enough $$$ and contacts to get into the presidency. Even that would not solve the problem, because the prez alone cant stop the system] This only makes the 2 major parties more bold and daring in the corrupt actions. Look at the criminal records of virtually any senator or congressman and you wouldnt want to live in the same neighborhood with them.

I agree that people should look at the voting records and act accordingly, but they dont. It is a sad state of affairs.

As an aside, I once almost got into an argument with a member of Prince Charles cabinet (obviously he is/was a royalist and well conneted). We were discussing government in the UK, and in particular the disposition of the taxes from the North Sea oil reserves. He was in opposition to a group that supported putting the taxes in the local Scottish treasury; rather they should go to the government in England. Anyway he commented that these "commoners" werent well informed and didnt know what was good for them. Being an American, you can imagine how that comment struck me; that galled me, but I held my tongue. Now I am not so sure he was wrong. Perhaps a government of wealthy people actually looking after the best interests of everyone, is better than a group of wanna be wealthy people basturdizing the system for their own gains.

I am often discouraged by the fact that within 5 seconds I can know how many errors were made by the center fielder of the Yankees in 1948, but cannot even find a directory of addresses in that amount of time for my area politicians. These men and women, as a majority, do not want to be held accountable, as far as I can see.

cr3

Americans and other - you think you have problems.

Consider this.

In SA you you don't vote for a representative but for a party. The seats in the national, provincial and local level legislator are then allocated on a proportional basis.

This situation is not the best but was workable. You could at least select a Representative to contact.

In 1994 (±><≈=??) the two biggest opposition parties decided to join and form a new party and they obtained permission to cross the floor by having a new law passed.

This was a fault.

The law was not repealed and now a period is allowed each year when representatives can chop and change as they wish without any liability of reporting to any voter.

Value of my vote = minus infinity!!!!

Count yourselves Lucky!

Sounds like the citizens in all the countries of the world have the same problem. People are corrupt and giving them power (whether democratically or otherwise ) does not make them less corrupt. Perhaps a revolution IS the only answer.