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Education

02/21/2008 11:21 PM

I think today we people (engineering student) are wasting 4 yrs in the name of education without learning things practically. Am i right?

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#1

Re: Education

02/21/2008 11:53 PM

Yes, you are correct in a way. IMO, university studies is a "rite of passage" where at the students get a degree at the end. University graduates spend 4/5years time are uni doing finsihing their degrees, a lot of them will never use the theoritcal skills they learnt at uni and use them when they graudate.

Some universities though do offer internship programs...

I am currently a 5th Year student at the University of Technology, Sydney. Our course consists of 4 year study + 1 year work experience (internships). This internship is broken up into 2 x 6 months internships where students learn something "practical".

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:02 AM

That's good but most of the people in developing and developed countries won't think that marks never decides the skill of a person.Even if i want to do my higher studies in USA i was forced to study english in detail rather i'll be away from my field for certain months. So very few universities are like that which u say. so students must have practical knowledge rather than theory knowledge which we can refer from books.

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#9
In reply to #1

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:40 AM

Dont you think it'd be great if the internship is spread through the 4 years by nipping off class time by 15 minutes, which can be accumulated to make up time for the internship?

It will build efficiency into the Lecturing process and also save a year.Students will be able to better corelate theory to practice and come out as WELL MADE,READILY EMPLOYABLE ENGINEERS-CONTRIBUTING THE LATEST CAPABILITIES TO INDUSTRY!

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:46 AM

s

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#74
In reply to #9

Re: Education

02/24/2008 2:14 AM

Perhaps you need to transfer to another college or university.

I went to high school and part of college at Don Bosco Technical College. We had at least, two hours of "laboratory" (practical practice, in other words) every week for each subject. Since I am in electronics, this means that I am learning not just the theories of how radios, multi-testers, calculators worked, we also learned how to build them.

In technical english class, we wrote application letters, resum├ęs, reports, delivered presentations, speeches, and other stuff required to function in the working world.

This was all well and good and you might say that it gave us a distinct advantage when we finally graduated. However, I still learned a lot more at work than I did in school.

In them olden days, a person learned to be something by becoming an apprentice. Theory and practical use was taught hand-in-hand. Unfortunately, you only learned to become what your teacher already was. It also limited the number of students that a teacher could handle since one-on-one only works if the teacher is not overwhelmed with the numbers.

You can try something:

Get a group of like-minded teachers like you and put up your own school. It will be a long uphill climb but if you really believe in what you're saying, you'll find a way.

Don't be a complainer. Complainers do just that, complain. They never amount to anything. If you take action, you'll eliminate that problem you're complaining about and you'll be a much happier man.

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#2

Re: Education

02/21/2008 11:57 PM

If you think you are wasting 4 years on education, you probably are. Drop engineering now please for the safety of society...

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:05 AM

Hoo do u have that much care about society? if so tell me the duty of the engineers let me check whether our studies satisfies it or not?

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#7
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Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:32 AM

What about all those that thought like Ragavan but went through with "engineering" never the less, for its brag value and are already a menace to society?

How about taking away their "Degrees" and "PhDs"?

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#33
In reply to #7

Re: Education

02/22/2008 11:37 PM

hoo r u talking about? Can u give sum examples? Oops - sorry, I was talking like ragavan.

What I mean to say, in plain English (since this is an English forum) is:

Who are you talking about? Can you give some examples; you know - give names?

Mike

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#42
In reply to #33

Re: Education

02/23/2008 4:33 AM

i'm talking abt most of the freshers who are coming iut as engineers with 20% of therotical knowledge and 2% practical knowledge. but that is not required for the company and the society too.

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#5

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:22 AM

Welcome! YOU ARE 100% RIGHT!!

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:25 AM

THANKS A LOT SIR

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#8

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:35 AM

Ragavan...with all due respect... Son, relax and understand WHY you are going to school. You are not going to school for practical knowledge, experience, or skill. You are going to school for education. Pay attention, study hard, and apply yourself. 10 - 20 years from now... when and if you are experienced and skilled...you'll understand why. If not...at least you'll have an education.

Look around you...the world is full of idiots. You have an opportunity while you are young, if you are intelligent, to establish a solid base to BEGIN a career with...if you understand and focus on the really important things.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:43 AM

Mr.switchman i didn't say that i hate studying engineering for 4 years. The system which i study is really foolish. i'll never apply this knowledge in the industry (In sense i can have this from book also whenever i need). but i'll have a image that i know engineering i'll act as a engineer but i dono engineering this is wat the problem faced by most of the engineer.

MR.L.S.RAGAVAN is far far better than PRETENDING Er.L.S.RAGAVAN.

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#83
In reply to #10

Re: Education

02/25/2008 3:27 AM

Dear Mr. Ragavan,

I am very disappointed in your statements about education. May I know which Engineering discipline you studied? And which college you passed out? Don't say blindly about our education system. If you say improve / updating in our education system, I will vote for you. But don't say as "foolish" system. No one is ready to give employment for "foolish" engineering scholars. Please mind your words. It is irritating to many readers.

When I was working in "Detergent chemicals", I thought (like as you) that our engineering courses are foolish. I have no chance to apply Heat Power Engineering, Thermo dynamics, Engineering Mechanics..etc. Because either I am not fully involving or not having logic mind for compare with studied engineering subjects. When I enter the "Tool Room" industries, Engineering Mechanics, Production technology & workshop technologies are helped me. When I am leading the project team, I too understand the value of "Engineering Mechanics". Then I shifted to "Steel" Industries, I am valuating the Fluid Mechanics & Industrial management.

I ever never agree your statement that our education system is "foolish". Change is unchangeable. We should update the system in all areas. Don't use hard / irritating word about our education or society. Criticizing is very easy. If you have any idea about improving the existing education system, it is appreciated that publish in this forum and send to Indian Education Department. Please think as positively. Sometimes if you're facing the negative things, try to handle in positive way.

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:58 AM

Was EINSTEIN an idiot because he lacked an "Education"? How about Thomas Alva Edison? In fact "Education" takes away your precious "Common Sense" and makes you an idiot, by killing creativity and original thinking.Education combined with Training makes for a HOLISTIC Learned person!!

"...and apply yourself.". How's the way to "APPLY" oneself with the "education" received without practical corelation to reality?

"10-20 years from now..."- How about the interim period- shall we endanger society until we "understand" what we have learnt?

"....at least you'll have an education."- of what use is this kind of education that cannot enable you to earn your bread?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Education

02/22/2008 1:14 AM

s i was worried abt my juniors i can't be a good engineer because of my educational system . let my juniors be a good engineers by changing the system

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Education

02/22/2008 1:31 AM

So you are a student right. Have you ever practiced engineering? What makes a good engineer in your opinion?

I have practiced engineering for 24 years. I have received professional licenses and certifications, I have taught others, I am very very sucessful in monetary terms, and I have been published in symposia and engineering journals 12 times. I am in my own humble opinion, a very good engineer.

I really think you need to get back to your schooling and prove that you can learn to think like an engineer before you jump off and assume that your engineering education is not worth your time. And again, if you really consider it foolishness, then go study something else!

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Education

02/22/2008 1:38 AM

s i'm a student ur saying that u r a good engineer after practicing it for past 24 years i agree but can't anyone do wat u did within 24 years?


i also practicing engineering 3 years and presented 5 papers and 3 projects i can say that i'm a good engineer but wat my education says? only marks marks marks is it healthy way for a fresh engineer>??

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#17
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Re: Education

02/22/2008 1:57 AM

Ok, I see where you are confused…

Studying engineering in school does not make you a good engineer. Even your professors recognize that.

Studying engineering in school teaches you the basic skills of a good engineer and how to think like a good engineer.

If you don't have those basic skills (maths, physics, etc), and if you have not learned to think like a good engineer, you will never be one.

A good engineer is someone who uses the basic skills he learned in school, is dedicated to always learn more, and is willing to teach others as he gains experience himself.

Every journey begins with a first step, and the journey will be what you make of it. School is the first step in the journey toward being a good engineer. Make the most of it…

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Education

02/22/2008 2:04 AM

when these schools where established? ur saying that people who studied in school are engineers . But i don think that is right because before these schools were established there were so many good engineers and they invented so many things without going to school. don't say "good engineer should know the basics like physics, maths, etc he should know only the concept which he is going to proceed.so don't simply argue analyse and ask today's engineers

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#73
In reply to #18

Re: Education

02/24/2008 1:28 AM

You know, you really are an argumentative little pest! And no one really cares what you think. The system is the way it is, perhaps you just don't get it. And if you really don't like it, then leave! Make room for someone else who'll make good use of it.

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: Education

02/22/2008 2:44 AM

"....and how to think like a good engineer..."

This is where Ragavan has the difficulty. The education he gets does not permit him to THINK in the first place, let alone THINK LIKE A GOOD ENGINEER. This could happen only if PRACTICING PRFESSIONALS (who have to live by good engineering or they starve) ARE THE FACULTY AND NOT ACADEMICALLY ACCOMPLISHED PROFESSORS BORN OUT OF THE SAME NAUSEATING SYSTEM.The education system is very happy with VOMITING (puking out) of stuff learnt by ROTE- sans UNDERSTANDING!! He gets top marks and is considered a "Good Engineer" by his Professors. IS THIS THE RIGHT WAY OF BECOMING AN ENGINEER, IN THE FIRST PLACE??

IN ANY CASE, MOST OF THE STUFF TAUGHT IS NEVER GOING TO BE USED IN PRACTICAL CAREER.THE SYLLABUS IS TOO VAST AND OBSOLETE TO BE OF ANY USE IN THIS FAST CHANGING WORLD! There is no corelation whatsoever to REALITY in the TEACHING process as the Professors have never practiced ENGINEERING themselves and have achieved NOTHING except acquiring a PhD through a waiting period of six years and putting out theses based on NET SURFING!!

The reason why a majority of Indian "Graduate" Engineers are into "Software" rather than HARD CORE engineering is because they are NOT equipped to be "Engineers"!!

How can someone who has never tasted ICE CREAM, describe what it is to have one?

"Studying engineering in school does not make you a good engineer. Even your professors recognize that."- Do we need to say more?

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#40
In reply to #20

Re: Education

02/23/2008 2:31 AM

Dear D. RAMAKRISHNA NAIDU

I agree with most of what you said but itwas all so loud. You see, not only engineering is in this state of the "know alls" rule. The one with the most certificates. It's

the same problem where ever you look, in what ever field of expertise. You

will end up with the interested,the gifted,or people like us which have not completely found their limits in our range of capabilities.

NAUSEATING SYSTEM

Again, where ever you look, things seem not in the best shape (to put it mildly). I trust that there are many engineers that have their work cut out, not by some system, but by daily demand for their skills. They are doing the best they can and only a few make life hard for them selves and create new things or methods or politics or whatever. It is hard ball being played and only the truly determined will be able to breathe the thin air that is present when decisions are made. In what ever discipline and since ever.

Teach calmly. Thank you. Ky.

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#41
In reply to #20

Re: Education

02/23/2008 2:37 AM

You sir, have a very jaundiced view of the world, particularly engineering . Please go and have another ice cream! As well, please avoid expressing your views to young, impressionable engineers because they could be influenced by your silly diatribe. Sorry to be so blunt, but you deserve it...in spades!

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#44
In reply to #41

Re: Education

02/23/2008 5:08 AM

me too didn't complete my engg so give me like this worst and silly answers

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#53
In reply to #17

Re: Education

02/23/2008 7:52 AM

I think you are missing his point.

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#199
In reply to #12

Re: Education

03/10/2008 1:48 PM

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Einstein graduated in 1900 from ETH Zurich with a degree in physics. In any case, the existence of a few (and notice the word few) notable people who have succeeded in highly technical fields without a formal education does not make a case for 'dissing education (as the statisticians like to say, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data").

As for the statement

"Education" takes away your precious "Common Sense" and makes you an idiot, by killing creativity and original thinking."

This is just a silly sweeping generalization. If you'd like to see what "creativity and original thinking" unfettered by the bounds of education is like, I invite you to look over any of many "perpetual motion" web sites (e.g., http://www.zpenergy.com/). Here, self-taught "inventors" come up with idiotic perpetual motion machines that any "educated" person fresh out of university will tell you cannot work.

The process of education accomplishes several things.

First, it brings you up to speed on thousands of years human knowledge, painfully acquired by many people, about a subject, so you're not trying to rediscover it all by yourself. Society has seen fit to distill it into a textbook and provide it to you.

Second, while you may not use the theory, knowing the theoretical foundations of a subject allows you to extend your knowledge beyond the "cookbook" stage, and gives you a sense of what will and will not work.

Third, education teaches you a disciplined way of thinking and of approaching problems that, over time, has been shown to be very successful. This is the part that you're not even aware that you're learning, because it isn't about the subject matter per se.

I'm sure there are more, but I think I hit the big ones

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#15

Re: Education

02/22/2008 1:33 AM

Ragavan,

Having done things "arse about" (i.e. back-to-front), I would say yes and No.

Those who become professional students and study just to get extra letters around their name never really gain the benefit of thier education.

I have found that some people go to education institutes and destroy any vestige of "Common Sense" or practicality. Then ignore advice when offered and make the sorts of mistakes that get themselves or someone else killed or injured.

Because they know Everything!!!

They are the "Yes" variety.

Some come out the other side of thier education and continue learing from the guys with all the experience.

They are the guys I allow to look after the Data Centre!!

Then there are those who work in related fields without much training and when they do go for training: -

They understand what they are learning and make some of the best engineers I have met!

One day I hope to be of the later types of engineer.

Regards,
Sapper.

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: Education

02/22/2008 2:07 AM

thanks i think u got my point.

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#21

Re: Education

02/22/2008 4:12 AM

You should be learning to play snooker/pool/table football. And looking for a good woman (or a naughty one ).

Broadly speaking the education isn't a waste, but it is important to recognise it as a start, not an end.

Some stuff you wnot learn from experience... say statistical analysis for example.

If the course is the right one for you you should make the most of it and learn what you can. If it is the wrong course... leave and get on with your life.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Education

02/22/2008 5:05 AM

Statitistical analysis is VOCATIONAL Training and not part of Engineering education-unfortunately!!

"And Looking for a good woman"- advice to an undergraduate? There can be nothing more suicidal abetment. A very good way of going astray in a society that is "Joint family", "arranged marriage" oriented.

Going to a Co-Ed Engineering college is distraction enough!!

NO, thank you.Please spare us of these values and help us keep whatever little sanity we have despite the effect of negative influences from the "Developed" world.

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Education

02/22/2008 5:37 AM

I suggest you undertake some vocational training on 'humour recognition' , having first dissmouted from that high horse you appear to be on.

It's ok for you to dismiss 4 years of education as waste (post #5) but obviously not ok for me to comment.

Del

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Education

02/22/2008 6:06 AM

Anyhow...Ragavan doesn't say where he is or what nationality.

You are making assumptions based on his name (ok. The assumption is backed up by later posts), but you don't actually know his culture beliefs or situation.

Anyhow I digress.

Generally I agee with your sentiments and am a great believer in the practical and empirical, sandwich courses where the student spends alternate periods in industry and education seem ideal to me.

The point I was trying to make (however badly) was that, it is better to recognise if you are truly wasting your time and move onto a different subject of study, or work hard to get the best from your education.

Either study hard or move on....

I'm sorry if we seem to have antagonised each other...

Best regards

Del

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#43
In reply to #26

Re: Education

02/23/2008 4:44 AM

halo i'm from india and i'm the student of D.ramakrishna naidu and our cultures are same

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#46
In reply to #43

Re: Education

02/23/2008 5:14 AM

Thanks...

Although we suspected this we didn't know it, and that is why I was irritated by certain previous comments.

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#23

Re: Education

02/22/2008 5:34 AM

Schooling rarely involves learning the practical side of learning. I agree that is sorely lacking. However, I wouldn't go so far as to call the entire four years as a waste.

I had the huge benefit of studying in a technical college where the practical side of learning went hand-in-hand with theory. As electronics students, we learned Ohm's Law plus how it is used in real life. I never forgot it.

Not all colleges are created equal, unfortunately.

Some people I know, however, have no inkling about how to use the theories they learned in college! Sometimes, I'd explain something to them and their eyes would go wide and say, "Yeah! That's what our instructors said! Now, I understand!"

I had my share of useless lessons, however. One that comes to mind is Spanish 101 which was compulsory in my time. Never used it. In fact, I've forgotten a lot of it.

Again, let me say, not all of the four years is a waste. You've got theory, which is a lot better than nothing at all.

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#45
In reply to #23

Re: Education

02/23/2008 5:14 AM

s but 4 years of studying gives only very very few amount of engg that few amount might be learnt seperately within 1 year

USELESS > USEFULL IN NOWADAYS ENGG STUDIES

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#51
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Re: Education

02/23/2008 7:38 AM

4 years of studying gives only very very few amount of engg

Wow, which college is that?! I went to engineering college and, I can assure you, more than 95% of my time in class was devoted to engineering skills (physics, chemistry, trigonometry, logic, technical english, etc.). Sure, maybe I had no need for calculating gravitational forces between the planets or determining the half-life of uranium 235, but my instructors had no idea what discipline I might eventually get into after college.

I think that is where your problem lies.

Colleges teach everyone. You may all be, say, electrical engineers. However, some of you will probably work in diesel power plants, some in nuclear power plants, some in wind farms, and some in some tall building with a standby generator. A few might even become astronauts working on the power module of the International Space Station.

Some of you will use everything you were taught. Most of you will use only some of it. In a lot of cases, you may just come to a conversation or a forum like CR4 and be able to shed some light or knowledge to someone who needs it. Maybe what you shared was useless to you but you retained it in your mind for some reason and then you found an outlet for it. In these cases, useless wasn't really useless after all.

You're still young ragavan. Don't tell yourself that everything you've been taught up to this point is useless. If you want to, use it. Find a way to use it. That way, it doesn't end up useless.

An old teacher once told us:

"We only teach you the skills you might need. Whether you use them or not, is up to you."

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#25

Re: Education

02/22/2008 6:04 AM

I agree with the comment of DEL the Cat -"Broadly speaking the education is not a waste,but it is important to recognise it as a start, not the end."

It is impossible to get complete knowledge of engineering in 4/5 years,but at least it directs you how to start solving practical engineering problems.You need to study for four years to achieve this useful level.

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#47
In reply to #25

Re: Education

02/23/2008 5:17 AM

s i agree 200% Mr.ratnagiri That 4/5 years of education can't give full knowledge but can guides to solve the practical problems.

But that was the lack in today's education and i'm talking only about that lack

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#27

Re: Education

02/22/2008 8:23 AM

I worked in engineering for 6 years and taught myself fluid mechanics. Now I'm studying mechanical engineering and I've just done a module in fluid mechanics. The way I was doing it at work was much harder than the way they taught at uni so in this instance I have gained from being at uni but I do agree there are some subjects which are useless.

When you are studying then you do need some time off to relax and I would say get yourself a woman. My girlfriend has ways to relax me which no engineer could ever do!!!

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#28

Re: Education

02/22/2008 12:24 PM

That could be completely true.

However, I submit to you that this is completely up to the student.

What you get out of education, like life, is what you put into it.

No education program can teach you everything you will learn in life, but you should learn enough to get your training wheels off. Part of the process is learning how to learn (as well as think).

So, while it may seem frustrating, maybe you should take a step back and see how you might make the system better work for you so that you have the advantage over the masses of other students that you will join on the job market pool.

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#29

Re: Education

02/22/2008 1:09 PM

You need both education and practical experience. Once upon a time (OMG, here we go again!), engineering graduates spent a couple years in the drafting room, the machine shop, and wherever before being allowed to do designs. But, that's no longer the case, so you have to take it on yourself to learn the practical if you're book-heavy or to learn the theory if you're experience-heavy. The world needs both kinds of people - theorists and hands-on guys - and anybody that can mix the two will always be handy to have around.

So, in theory class, you might learn how to calculate weld size. Then, on the shop floor you might learn how the weld is actually produced. Then you're a good weld designer. But, you need both.

(Then after 40 some years you wind up like me - I know how to calculate welds and I know how to make them. I just can't remember why I would want one. )

BTW, Einstein had a good education. Where'd that come from?

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Education

02/22/2008 6:31 PM

I agree. I am not an engineer, but I have had to work up prototypes, Nothing is so exasperating, than to get a design you can not build. You would have liked for the engineer to know something about how things actually work or that one doesn't have three hands and sometime there is no fixture that can be built to assist. Quite often this engineer has had a long career. If his career has been mostly theoretical, his practical ability is practically nil. I think there are not many people that can visualize without actually having had their hands on an object.

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#50
In reply to #30

Re: Education

02/23/2008 7:31 AM

vrbarnett: u got the point . people won't touch the job but they'll design it this is wat the problem.

ENGINEERS NEED ONLY TOP DOWN APPROACH NOT BOTTOM UP APPROACH

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#31

Re: Education

02/22/2008 11:23 PM

Dear Student,

You are probably right in part;the greatest hinderance that I have witnessed spanning a 30+ year career, is the growing numbers of "engineers" who once they were exposed to the field or plant floor environment, could not pour water out of a boot, if the instructions were on the bottom. Yes, you most certainly lose valuable knowledge by not being exposed to the real world; but the engineering profession is like all others.....it is the degree status that they seek mostly today, for that is what gathers the attention of business and manufacturing. Do not get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the profession, but we must be candid, it is the "prestige" of being the big fish in the little pond that most relish in. You will learn, that in order to gain the "good" position, you have to play their game. My late father was an Electrical
Engineer (he built Georgia-Pacific's first fully automated plant years ago); but in his later years often told me that he yearned for the old days when he worked as an electrician with his tools. I myself have spent 30+ years in manufacturing and Industrial Construction; have taught hydraulics and pneumatics at a Department of Energy Project, taught robotics, automation, I am a licensed Electrical Contractor and have designed and built custom "one off" washer systems for the nuclear industry. And in all of this..........I am not an engineer, have never even been enrolled in a college anywhere. Do I regret it? in some ways I do....not having the degree has kept me out of some good job offerings. But, I would not trade what I have learned on the shop floor, for a free education at any of the major engineering schools. I hate to sound critical of the profession, but the professors (most of them) only want to make tenure and retire.....there are no more "Frank Lloyd Wright's" I'm afraid. If, I could close with one bit of advice, it is this...NEVER fail to learn something new today that you did not know yesterday; and NEVER fail to listen to those around you (with or without formal education, they can teach you, if you are teachable). I am a huge fan of the Toyota Quality Control Process (DNA); and I remember one time, when asked how they kept their processes so efficient, a company spokesperson replied that when all of the engineers had taken a process as far as they deemed it effective; they then assigned it to the "laziest" employee they could find in the plant, and he would by his character, make it more effective and efficient. Two things here that American Companies need to learn....EVERY employee is a valuable part of the process, and if you are willing to learn, then you can learn from anyone.

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#32

Re: Education

02/22/2008 11:27 PM

I do not think 4 yrs studing in engineering is waste, please look at from following perspective

1) When any one joins after their HSC he / she do not know, nither he/she including their family member is capable nor he /she sure of which field of engineering he/she is going work as professional , in absence of this university has to keep all subjects. If we see first two years it is basic which useful is to build your analysis, hypothesis, invention,inovation , problem solving & part of it for smooth understanding of complicated subject.

2) When some one makes comment based on few example of scietist in past , they forget today, we want masses to become user/practioner of science & technology & not few .So we can not go by chance

3) Also we are confused with invention & engineering.Engineering is application of science for common people,to make their life easy interms of efforts, saving time, improve health, produce commodity/goods at affordable price & requird volume.etc.

4) I think those who do not wants to study & tax their brain make such comments & corrupt common people mind.Or they are not aware this system to very grate extent give equal opprtunity to all to make an attempt become good engineer/scientist, without affecting/ taking risk of remaining unemployed.

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#52
In reply to #32

Re: Education

02/23/2008 7:49 AM

SIR I CAN UNDERSTAND WAT UR COMING TO TELL . BUT UR THINKING THAT WE UNDERSTAND BASICS IN FIRST TWO YEARS AND SHOWING OUR TALENT BY TAKING MARKS.

I'LL TELL U THE TRUTH NOBODY WILL TEACH LIKE THE STUDENT UNDERSTAND'S EVEN THEY DONO WAT THEY ARE COMING TO TELL. SO WE ARE ONLY TO GET MARKS NOT FOR KNOWLEDGE

WAT U SAY FOR THIS?

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#34

Re: Education

02/23/2008 12:00 AM

To All, A very wise elderly woman once told me that the reason I should go to college was "Not to learn to be a chemical engineer, but to learn how to learn". And of course she was right .

It was not what I learned in College that made me who I am, but the methods of learning. Of course, not everyone is as lucky as I am. But everyone is as lucky and wise and skilled as they are.

Cordially Dragon

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Education

02/23/2008 12:18 AM

Hi Dragonsfarm,

Re: "but to learn how to learn".

That is precisely it! I have not benefitted so much by the CONTENT of what I've learned as much as the way I go about learning.

Thanks for your comment.

Mike

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#35

Re: Education

02/23/2008 12:11 AM

ragavan,

In my experience, I don't think you are right. Now, I don't know what year you are in and, as I look back on my years on school, we didn't do any hands-on stuff until our junior year. I'm talking about our ChemE lab where we had: (1) a pilot-scale distillation column, (2) a 2-effect evaporator, and various other smaller pieces of equipment. Our task in the lab was to run the process equipment and explain why or why not the equipment performed like we calculated that it would.

I'm just going to say this and then I'll leave:

Just as it is difficult to understand theory without physical models involved, the inverse is also true. What I mean is that BOTH school (theory) and practical understanding are ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for a COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of any subject. They are inseparable in the same way that faith and works are inseparable for it to really "work".

You are in school right now. Be patient! The time will come for you to put some of your knowlege to work. It has for me. Not particularly in the ways I envisioned or would have even liked, but it has come. Sometimes I wish I was back in school!

You seem very troubled and I will pray for you.

Blessings,

Mike

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#37

Re: Education

02/23/2008 12:34 AM

The premise of education has to be established. Of course you speaking of formal education, but education begins at birth and never ends. The formal educational process is not about learning one's 'ABCs', but instead is foundational, and the primary things learned are not the facts and equations, but how to act, react, and gather and process information ... the educational process is not about learning, so to speak, but, instead, it is about the process of discovery.

Such is rarely learned from institutions, but from individuals whose heats are those of mentors, who come 'along side' those with the hunger for more ability, so the educational process may or may not stumble depending on the character of the educators within. Still, without judgement, one can learn.

Also, my dear friend, please remember that all education is a two-way street. One can not be taught anything if they are unwilling to learn. In whatever environment you are ... in school, in the workplace, or with others ... if you want to learn, you will learn.

Education in any venue is never a waste of time, unless you choose to waste the time.

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#94
In reply to #37

Re: Education

02/26/2008 9:03 AM

halo all of u

U PEOPLE ARE MISTAKEN ME UR THINKING THAT I HATE STUDYING ENGINEERING BUT THATS NOT THE TRUTH AND THATS NOT MY POINT MY POINT IS STUDY IT WITH FULL MEANS .

FOR UR INFORMATION : I'M DOING MY THIRD YEAR ENGG AND DID 4 PROJECTS

2 PUBLISHED IN PAPER

OF THAT 2 ONE IS APPLIED FOR PATENT

ONE CAME IN MARKET NOW WHICH I DID BEFORE THREE YEARS


DON'T I HAVE INTRESTED IN MECHANICAL AS WELL AS ENGG?

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#97
In reply to #94

Re: Education

02/26/2008 2:11 PM

how about a link to the papers published, they must be in the public sector

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#38

Re: Education

02/23/2008 1:14 AM

I earned my degree 1995. Got my licensed a year after. Now looking back, I regret I did not study harder on English, laplace, fourier, differential equations, calculus now I'm just flipping burgers!(just kidding,mindyou the burger part is one similar line in a commercial I heard).Seriously 13 yrs later I appreciate the beauty of these disciplines. For example,in using anritsu test set to test RF cables or antenna you would really admire those engineers/programmers who would made it possible to see things in real world in just in a push of a button i.e.you switch view from time or some units to frequency domain, bam! there's your invisible RF-that's fourier at work!. If you appreciate the learning smallest details it will blow your mind to think how engineers do or invent things like that--Things that seems unthinkable made to life by engineers! ( many engineers achieved that)

These may sound like a cliche its like,you learnhow to crawl before you walk ,you walk before you run. Man! it's your foundation learn as much as you can probably you might not go to regular university again and your parents no longer paying for it (I 'm speaking to some one in general). Its like mental exercise and gaining skills so be fit! I'm bless for those 5 years!

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#39

Re: Education

02/23/2008 1:41 AM

Mr Ragavan, Don't be offended but it seems you are too negative. What do you see depends on what do you want to see, isn't it? IMHO, university is for getting fundamental knowledge about everything, developing skills of understanding and accomplish the duties... You learn about yourself, learn how to deal with tasks, become mature. Practical skills come with time and nobody will blame a student for lack of practice. Every single company will offer a course or give enough time for a newly hired young employee. If one is dumb then even lifetime practice won't make successful engineer. Don't underestimate the role of theoretical education!!! Cheers! Ali G

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#48

Re: Education

02/23/2008 5:21 AM

Yes, You are right. However, you should be aware of the purpose and why the educational system works the way it does and why it generally works as well as it does.

Firstly, you need to recognize that your teachers seldom have a grasp on the world of work because they are products of other teachers. As one engineer with whom I have worked for over forty years once remarked," An advanced degree is good for obtaining a job teaching or working for the government". ... He had a masters in chemical engineering and had built several plants. Another remark he once made that struck me...... He said," I have never needed to use calculus, Have you ever needed it?....Supprisingly, I could only remember needing it once over a thirty five year period after working in hundreds of industrial plants.

REMEMBER THIS

A good education organizes your mind to think rationally and it puts you on equal footing with others who can think!! Poor grammer and poor reasoning are products of those who are poorly educated and these traits permanently mark people as being ignorant-- regardless of their other qualities!!!!!!!!!

As the dean of men in one of the top USA Universities once told me," A degree only tells others how high you have jumped. It does not tell how high you can jump!!!

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#103
In reply to #48

Re: Education

02/27/2008 5:48 AM

I have not had even one occasion to use Calculus in an Enginering career spanning 43 years over a hundred and odd projects of even complex nature nor in my Inventions and development works!!

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#105
In reply to #103

Re: Education

02/27/2008 6:11 AM

That depends on your area of work. If you will reveal that, perhaps we will understand why you haven't needed to use this particular tool. Obviously, it's horses for courses - some problems are best solved analytically (this can use a range of analytical techniques - not necessarily calculus); in others a good enough solution can be reached more rapidly based on experience and experimentation; a good engineering course should acknowledge this and provide opportunities to experience both types of problem (and no, I am not aware of a perfect course existing, any more than a perfect student or engineer or anything else).

Anyone using CAD to design bridges, or to analyse air flow or circuit behaviour (inter aliter) is using calculus, whether or not they are aware of it. And, whether it be a chisel or CAD, it remains dangerous to use a tool when you are not aware of its characteristics and limitations. And, of course, if you use the volume of a sphere or cone, or the area of a circle, you are already using results based on calculus.

For what it is worth - about a third of my revenue-generating patents would not have been arrived at without explicit use of calculus.
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#49

Re: Education

02/23/2008 7:24 AM

Am i right?

No.

Because the academic (theoretical, principals, fundamentals, ... etc.) stage of education in university is mandatory before practical. And my professor told me -more than 30 years ago when I was a student- that this stage of education is just to help you to open the door of life & engineering house a very little opening, and opening the full door shall be accomplished at practical life and depending on your participation, activity and doing your best.

Now, and after more than 30 years of experience, I have to increase my acknowledgment specially in mechanical engineering field by reading 3 hours per day at least.

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#54
In reply to #49

Re: Education

02/23/2008 8:18 AM

I bet you were able to use a screwdriver before embarking on an education and career in Mechanical Engineering.

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#69
In reply to #54

Re: Education

02/23/2008 6:19 PM

Faculties of engineering will not learn you all the engineering, only fundamentals and principals just to help you to open the door and you have to get in.

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#80
In reply to #69

Re: Education

02/24/2008 7:01 PM

But the faculties can't able give some realtme examples which we can understand easily because they were not yet went or worked in industries. After finishing their master degree they are coming directly to teach. Is this the way to guide?

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Education

02/24/2008 9:27 PM

honestly, you should be debating this with your classmates, ....we used to be able to solve all the worlds problems...........

i was happy when i had a degreed professional teaching, instead of a grad student.............

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#95
In reply to #49

Re: Education

02/26/2008 9:05 AM

halo all of u

U PEOPLE ARE MISTAKEN ME UR THINKING THAT I HATE STUDYING ENGINEERING BUT THATS NOT THE TRUTH AND THATS NOT MY POINT MY POINT IS STUDY IT WITH FULL MEANS .

FOR UR INFORMATION : I'M DOING MY THIRD YEAR ENGG AND DID 4 PROJECTS

2 PUBLISHED IN PAPER

OF THAT 2 ONE IS APPLIED FOR PATENT

ONE CAME IN MARKET NOW. WHICH I DID BEFORE THREE YEARS


DON'T I HAVE INTRESTED IN MECHANICAL AS WELL AS ENGG?

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#98
In reply to #95

Re: Education

02/26/2008 2:21 PM

It looks as if you were so busy, you forgot to attend your English classes.

Do it, and maybe than we shall all be able to understand what you really trying to say with this non-sense thread.

Wangito.

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#104
In reply to #98

Re: Education

02/27/2008 6:01 AM

u read the discussion fully and talk with some sense k i know to go for english class so u mind ur work

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#127
In reply to #104

Re: Education

02/28/2008 2:33 AM
  • u read the discussion fully and talk with some sense k i know to go for english class so u mind ur work

It might also be helpful if you learnt how to use the shift key, inserted the occasional punctuation mark and ceased the use of those lazy and particularly annoying abbreviations.

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#102
In reply to #95

Re: Education

02/27/2008 1:54 AM

You really don't get it, and that's too bad. If you only learn engineering, you are of no use as either an engineer or a person... People are multi-dimensional. It seems as though you feel comfortable living an existence as a one-dimensional program.

If you don't suck up other knowledge while at college, it'll leave you an illiterate idiot that asks ignorant questions such as "What is Greenwich Mean Time?" and "Does the Equator go through Greenwich?" These are such BONE HEADED questions, I can't imagine anyone at college-level ever asked them.

You, my boy, have one hell of a lot to learn before you can even consider yourself a well rounded, educated person. You're nothing more than a stupid, programmed calculator - I can buy one of those at my local electronics store for way less than I'd ever hire you for! Just bend over and show me where the batteries go, and I'll shove them in.

What does it take to get through your own ignorant, incorrect, closed, self-serving ideas and open your minuscule mind to the fact that you don't know everything about world around you. AND THAT AN ENGINEER NEEDS TO BE AWARE OF THE WORLD AROUND THEM -You really are quite a stubborn, little moron, and that's too bad!!!

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#106
In reply to #102

Re: Education

02/27/2008 6:12 AM

thanks for ur comment according to we had 4 golden years and equator is passing thro greenwich. NOW IS IT OK FOR U ?

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#107
In reply to #106

Re: Education

02/27/2008 6:46 AM

Are you pretending that you don't know the difference between the meridian and the equator, or is it just your sloppy English?

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#108
In reply to #107

Re: Education

02/27/2008 8:41 AM

Ok, dear Members, can we close this thread at this juncture.

I believe the information generated has served its purpose.

No need descending from the sublime to the ridiculous.

Cheers,

ethobil

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#109
In reply to #108

Re: Education

02/27/2008 10:07 AM

Yea, can't we all just get along!

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#110
In reply to #108

Re: Education

02/27/2008 12:19 PM

You could always unsubscribe from this one.

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#111
In reply to #110

Re: Education

02/27/2008 12:25 PM

You missed the point, Pal.

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#112
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Re: Education

02/27/2008 12:38 PM

....then explain it.

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#113
In reply to #111

Re: Education

02/27/2008 12:50 PM

So please explain your point?

Threads sometimes ebb & flow, Ragavan is freaking out & blurting out unintelligible text speak. So I guess english would be his second language once removed.

You are free to leave @ any time!

Taunt us again & I shall post a silly picture!

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#114
In reply to #113

Re: Education

02/27/2008 1:03 PM

Let see this silly picture for this silly thread!

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#115
In reply to #114

Re: Education

02/27/2008 1:30 PM

Ok Kris

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#116
In reply to #115

Re: Education

02/27/2008 1:45 PM

The top one is very silly. The bottom one is just a bit silly.

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#117
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Re: Education

02/27/2008 2:29 PM
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#118
In reply to #117

Re: Education

02/27/2008 2:46 PM

You are now moving into the realm of seriously silly! The CR4 Department of Silly Photographs will consider these along with other entries for our Annual Silly Photo Contest. Winners will be announced before the Ides of March.

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#119
In reply to #118

Re: Education

02/27/2008 3:09 PM

There's more over here http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/18001?frmtrk=cr4sd#newcomments

Including my favorite

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#120
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Re: Education

02/27/2008 3:58 PM

These look like real winners!

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#125
In reply to #117

Re: Education

02/28/2008 1:04 AM

Now you're getting repetative, they all look a bit of a tit. Say, they missed "When do we want it ? ". " With our meds" would be my best guess.

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#124
In reply to #115

Re: Education

02/28/2008 12:56 AM

The Langaroo is good, but the other is scary ! Just a btw, but #14 wasn't me, I've not posted as Guest. Somebody is farting around.

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#55

Re: Education

02/23/2008 9:57 AM

Study of engineering subjects will give you "Forma mentis". This is most important as it will train you to think in an analytical way.

Get it?


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#56

Re: Education

02/23/2008 10:22 AM

Please review this site for "ON EDUCATION". I am 75 years old and my major in college was physics/chemistry double major. I had to leave college in my senior year when I ran out of money. After college, I worked in civil, structural and mechanical engineering and retired from the engineering field and found that "If it is true we learn from our mistakes then I must be among the most learned, however, I find I am still learning.". Thank God I had enough education in engineering and communication skills to reach the level of a "Principle Mechanical Designer". Never, ever, regret any of your education, regardless of how it is obtained. Sooner or later, it will be the most cherished tool you have.

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#57

Re: Education

02/23/2008 10:42 AM

The objection set out in a couple different ways in this thread is that engineers come out of school without practical experience.

My response is so what? School is not the place to gain practical experience. School is the place to learn basic skills. Work is the place to gain practical experience, guided and trained by others with more experience.

But that does not remove the need to learn the basics, and if the basics are learned in school it saves time teaching the basics when a person starts to work!

No offense, but I really don't want someone who has never even taken basic statics much less calculus, designing bridges.

At the same time I really don't want a kid right out of civil engineering school doing it either, he has to gain that experience under the supervision of an experienced engineer.

Vertexoem said:

"the greatest hindrance that I have witnessed spanning a 30+ year career, is the growing numbers of "engineers" who once they were exposed to the field or plant floor environment, could not pour water out of a boot, if the instructions were on the bottom."

And all I can think is, Ok if that is the case, you really want someone with only a high school education on the plant floor? They are going to be better at pouring water out of a boot some how? A new engineer must be trained, and given a chance to gain experience, just like anyone else.

Bottom line, ragavan if you are not interested in learing the basics of engineering, you will never be an engineer. Get back to your school work, and learn it well. In response to your OP, you are wrong! You are not right.

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#70
In reply to #57

Re: Education

02/23/2008 7:14 PM

Why not? One thing you assume is that an engineer is going to get that niche job, where he would only be required to design in his field. In small companies, engineers have to well be rounded and they do not always have techs to save their behinds. There may be no one there to train them or be willing to show them, especially from the bottom up.

Some people go into engineering, because it is thought it is a good job, or its just choosing a major. They are not innate tinkerers, but are smart enough to do the work. There is no creativity there. Knowing concepts with no concept of application, can not make for a good engineer. I am not against college or engineering degrees, which I think some here think; but I see no reason that a shop course, mechanical drawing course (not CAD) or wiring the circuits one designs, would be such a low brow thing to learn in college.

I imagine that civil engineering is quite different, but wouldn't building scale models be helpful in learning about bridges? You see, I would see that as getting practical experience.

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#58

Re: Education

02/23/2008 10:52 AM

In my opinion, the worst time to begin college or university (at least in the USA) is immediately following graduation from high school because the majority of students have no idea why they are attending (other than it is expected, parents paying, friends, athletics, parties, etc.). That's one of the reasons, majors are usually not declared until after the sophomore (second) year. It is rare for an incoming student to clearly know what they hope to achieve.

The best engineering students and by far the best instructors are those who have practical experience in industry or elsewhere because they already know, or have some idea of how the theoretical knowledge learned in the classroom can be applied.

The engineering degree is usually important in order to get your foot in the door but, nobody is an engineer right out of college or university. One acquires the degree or diploma then goes out into industry or elsewhere and learns how to become an engineer.

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#59

Re: Education

02/23/2008 11:53 AM

My initial understanding of ragayan"s statement question, didn't question the necessity of a college education, but only what was to be gained during that four years. Engineering is not a theoretical science. Even when students are learning science they perform experiments, learning the different between theory and reality.

I did not think the idea of learning things practically was contradictory to higher education. It has only been about 60 years since engineering has been strictly considered an academic result. I know we no longer use the term Radio Engineer or Railroad Engineer, but when the term engineer came into being, it basically meant someone who could make things work. Engineering has always been the extension of the mind from the hand, build a better machine to expand the capability of our physical body. We have philosophy and mathematics to expand our minds. To divorce engineering from the hand is ludicrous.

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#60

Re: Education

02/23/2008 12:14 PM

You are right in fact there have been great inventions over time that were made by people that did not have an engineering degree. Some of these people spent a life time educating themselves by trial and error in math, physics and chemistry. They practiced in the unknown. What an education is providing is just a small part of the combined knowledge these men learned in their life times combined. This gives you base of knowledge to start from. With out it you may have to spend years as they did at trial and error.

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#61

Re: Education

02/23/2008 2:43 PM

I can understand your feeling that way , but the education is required for most people to at least give them a starting point.

The problem that I see in the educational system to day, at least in the U.S. is that the professors are almost all well "educated idiots" , by this I mean that they have absolutely no "real world " knowledge at all. They went to collage and went to collage and went and taught at collage , and even then went to collage to "further their education" instructed by who? Some less knowledgeable? or more of the same education only types.

I had this brought home to me in a unique fashion, Our local university needed input for their "practical experience" program in engineering , and they approached me for a "real world" application problem to solve.

It was a relatively simple problem of 6 variables and rather straight forward physical values, (gee no imaginary numbers) in any case I was returned 30 solutions 4 of which the professors involved considered the top solutions to the problem.

The result was that not one of the 4 "top solutions" even addressed the problem!

There where 3 professors and the "Dean of Engineering" involved in this exorcise ,now I may have not been clear as to the desired result/solution , but 9 of the papers solved the problem as stated, 11 more came very close with some rather unique twists.

I do not believe that my definition of the problem was at fault, the most interesting out come of this was that the papers that best addressed the problem were the least favored by the professors judging the papers.

I get the rather dubious privilege of interviewing the newly graduated "engineers" for jobs, and frankly I do at times wonder what these kids are being taught. Most have little or no "fire" for the work , believe that they will start at 80K+ for a relaxed 7 hr day,most seem to be more interested in how soon they can do their PE.

With Things the way they are today I figure I will be able to keep 1 in 7 that I hire , and that it will generally take 8 to 16 months for the new hire to show even the slightest profit.

No the university of which I speak is not a low end type it is the second best engineering collage in Washington , Oregon ,and Idaho (my opinion).

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Education

02/23/2008 2:58 PM

You kept one in seven and I got to keep only one in ten. I guess you were more lucky than I or had better screening in the first place. But remember, the best supervisors are the best teachers, too.

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: Education

02/23/2008 3:00 PM

Amen to that Tank!

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#65
In reply to #62

Re: Education

02/23/2008 3:39 PM

CH:

You mite say I was lucky --- or not! the two universities are less that 10 miles away from my shop (no I don't own it except in my head).

More than any thing I have an ugly screening process "Like man you have to have an interest in what we do man".

The most damning is that I ask my newbies to spend a min of 2 hrs at night at home reading professional pubs, I require 1hr twice a week after work to discuss the work, and 1 Saturday a month for review and training. They agree to that up front or Nada.

The other thing is as a teacher I figure that why be just a butt when with just a little more work you can be a real A$$! It is my free time it had best be appreciated!

But it can get disheartening in that the big 4 love to buy my "graduates" away, what a loss!

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: Education

02/23/2008 4:40 PM

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink. You can try and teach a student but you cannot make him learn!

When I say that a good supervisor is a good teacher it has many implications. One is that all of us, from company owners to managers to supervisors to new employees have to have the same goal; to advance their careers. This means, then that a pyramid is formed. From the top, the owner of CEO has several managers (vice presidents, etc) who manage several department manages, who assign several supervisors who, finally, supervise several employees. For a supervisor to rise to manager level means he must stand on the shoulders of his employees, training them to replace himself at the manage level, just as a ship must depend on water for it to float. This same continues right up the pyramid to the owner (CEO), If the water is drained from under each, then the ship sinks, if new managers are not trained, then there is no way for the old manager to float upward to the next level. It is important that training continue so that each of the employees have the opportunity to advance his own career. This is done with teamwork, not by being an ASS or a strict disciplinarian. I did have the good fortune in my career of having some very good supervisors who were good teachers and I did "ace" my sociology courses, specializing in worker relations. It all helps. This is all plain and simply the fact that learning begins with birth (perhaps before birth) and continues to death (perhaps beyond death). One can never know it all nor can one ever know enough.

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#243
In reply to #61

Re: Education

05/07/2015 6:47 AM

Education is a thing which can't be taken from any one. An educated person can understand the right ways he can do work and get a opportunity in world. An uneducated can't understand the real aim of life they can't understand how to do work and get a opportunity of respect in era. They can't understand the modern era. They just know that we are a labour and we have to do hard work.

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