What is Wrong With Todays Workers?

Sorry. Bad news. You cannot get it back on track, it's the current way of the world. But what it does mean for the other kind who do turn in a good days work they always have employment. I have fought this for years and in reality there is nothing to be done. Sorry to sound so negative.

I refuse to think that nothing can be done, but I respect your opinion. I like to be at least somewhat optomistic and I think that it has to start somewhere. I guess the question is where?

Keep going. This is were I started and I haven't found a general answer yet that fits all. I have had a certain amount of success with individuals though.

This hasn't been my experience at all. The guys who work for me are motivated, talented and respectful of the workplace. I see what you're talking about everywhere else I go though.

I see where your coming from Del and I to see it here even in my own salary. I know companies are doing less when it comes to compensation and I am in the Management Sect of my company. I think that is more of an economy thing at the moment. However we do give better to those who work better and less to those who do less. Just a way of life.

I refer more to the just walked in the door attitude of "Ok I'm here now, I work for you now, what are you going to do to make me work harder. Because I'm gonna work harder when you pay me more."

This to me is an unacceptable attitude. You get paid more when you prove yourself to be worth more. You get paid more when you learn to do your job better. You get paid more when you leave the attitude at home.

Ther just seems to be no work ethic. What ever happened to being a craftsman and taking pride in your work?

Ther just seems to be no work ethic. What ever happened to being a craftsman and taking pride in your work?

To be honest I don't see enough youngsters to comment as I work in a small company.
I do know what you mean though...it seems rare to see enthusiasm and energy. Maybe the jobs aren't there, or the kids haven't yet found what turns them on...

How many of us started out in the right job full of enthusiasm?
I started in a HiFi/component/surplus store...I did the job but was most keen on learning about electronics from the other guys (radio hams and hi-fi builders) who worked there and the customers...I did put in a fair shift though and did become assistant manager before I left for a 'real' job.

Maybe we are just all old farts.

Hey ..I'm not writing anymore unless you give me a raise....

Del

I happened to catch Del after his sandwich

& for some reason I've been having trouble getting online.

Very true. I just saw an article on Fox news last night where a student beat up a teacher and the rest of the class just cheered her on.

Definately not raised right there. I was taught to respect teachers and if I had a problem with one I was to report it to my parents or school administrators.

But that was also a different time. A time when we were taught good values at home. I know my children are not like this. All of my children have introduced me to ther bosses and I have been taken aside when the kids were not around and told by ther respective bosses that I must have raised them right because they are the most respectful hard working employes thay have. This makes me feel great of course but still reitterates that proper upbringing is partially at fault.

I will say that Del ir right in his post about some of them not having found their place as yet. My children are no exception. With the exception of the oldest, none of them have yet found the job the are ready to spend a number of years at but work very hard to prove their worth at their current jobs. This is carried on to future employers in recommendations.

There is a risk of drifting off into a socialogical discussion.

Is the difference between our parents generation and us, bigger than the difference between our kid's generation and us?

No more 'save before you spend' .
No more job for life from a patriarchal big corporation.
No more stable family, one partner nuclear family.
No more walk into a new job tomorrow.
An increasingly ageing population...

Consumerism has encouraged people to borrow more than they can pay back in a life-time. No wonder there is a credit crunch...the system of constant growth fueld by credit is unsustainable.

The gap between rich and poor is increasing.

My Daughter has a fine art degree...works in London as a Library Manager, yet her salary isn't enough to finance a home or family. More people are not having children or settling down....at least the ones who are thinking.

Nature will of course have it's way and there are plenty of kids and parents who need two jobs each to finance them....

I have no answers...I'm just saying maybe we shouldn't judge because times have changed sooo much from when we were kids and could just walk into a job.

Heck maybe I'm just an old fart...maybe this isn't the right forum...but I feel that the consumer society whilst being fine in theory has been allowed to run riot.
(Don't shoot me as a Commie...they havn't got it right either....)

Del

Very true in all Del.

Society as a whole has changed and I guess until we reach critical mass things may not change.

One of the problems is that most parents are too lazy themselves. Another is that kids have been taught that any discipline from the parents is "child abuse". Another is that we had it easier than our parents and we make it easier for our kids.

The way I see it, if we want respect we have to earn it. If we tell our employees that from the start (as I do) and we tell our children the same thing then we get it. I am not saying we always get it. But those who fall by the wayside, (can't keep a job, don't contribute to society) eventually get "cut from the herd". Yeah, it's cold blooded but so is reality.

My two cents, Blue

Nothing is changed Basics are same as it used to be. New generations are coming with new ideas but they are rejected by one sentence "that is not a proven way of working, so please do as we do"

If employer can't change thinking style, how can employee?

You are right to some extent SP. I do however work for a company that allows free thinking amongst its employees and we are all for making a change if it will be beneficial to operations. I.E. Saving time, material, and reduce reruns. If it doesn't fit into a criteria that will introduce a new product line or improve the afore mentioned economic values then there is no need to pursue it. A lot of things have to be considered when new ideas arise and a lot of lower level employees sometimes don't understand the ramifications of things they submit. I mean it may affect the immediate situation but sometimes it is ill-advised for long term achievements.

This discussion is going well keep the feedback coming.

(a lot of lower level employees sometimes don't understand the ramifications of things they submit)

If "lower level employee" tag is removed and employee has given chance to involved 100% in design process, then my experience says it will work. After all " higher level employee" can not achieve anything without "lower level" and vise versa. It is all about team work. Then is it necessary to tag employees? I don't think so, because taging is same as creating "wall of ego".

It is all about how we "look at and understand things". Please no one should take personally.

We involve all employees involved in a decision from the machine operator to the CEO. I was trying to get across that when a decision goes against what the machine operator thought was great for instance that it didn't work well when all the numbers were put to it and the machine operator was disappointed.

Good Link very informative and well researched.

I can recognize a great many things that are reflected in my own workplace. I have just skimmed over it and read deeper in a few areas but have save it to my computer to review thoroughly and reflect upon.

I may even be reviewing it with my boss if he is interested.

Techno - I just reviewed your presentation and I have to say, it seems as though you're right on. Having worked in environments with distinct generational gaps, with your presentation, I am able to 'assign' names to each generation identifier and identify traits of those individuals. Having additional information such as this prior to entering such a generationally diverse environment would be helpful. Thanks for providing the info.

Cheers!
Kim

The young ones are all on ritilin or other drugs. No wonder there is no motivation or respect in them. (yes... a very cynical statement... )

It is a mixed bag. Some people are useless and some are far above average. Some management rewards extra effort and some do not. I have probably worked more places in my 71 years than many of you have ever seen. My take on it is that in small shops extra effort is rewarded by "atta boys", but not more money. In large places where top management doesn't know the workers personally extra effort isn't rewarded nearly as much as personality is.

For some reason nearly all employers resist giving raises. More than once I have seen exceptionally good workers quit because they could not get more money. Management would then hire someone they know nothing about for more than the first worker was making.

There is lots of blame to go around.

I think techno is on the right track with the culture of entitlement factor. Social promotion in schools, where a teacher passes a student who should be failed, is a symptom of this. What the child learns is that they don't have to study, to learn, to work in order to move ahead. If that doesn't foster an attitude of entitlement, I don't know what does.

This is probably due to a combination of parents, schools and media, with parents being more key than the other factors.

Parents don't want to invest the time in their kids, so they leave it up to the school, the TV, the Intenet, video games, etc. Teachers are overwhelmed with the number of students they have to teach, and so they are incapable (and even unwilling in some cases) to give each child the attention needed. On the TV they see too much violence and sex, even on the news, and receive no interaction with anyone. On the Internet, they do get some interaction, but mostly with other kids, and the adults they do interact with could turn out to be predators.

The best approach is to start with your own family. In the workplace, I believe mentoring could be the key. Don't force it, but do make the offer. Sometimes you just have to let people make mistakes for themselves so they will learn. The old saying is that experience is the best teacher, but I suspect that what that saying means is that pain is the best teacher.

I 100% agree with you. Good Post

That and the "I want it now and I want it all" attitude.

Long term planning, that's hard work, I'll have to think for myself.

And the idiot box has taught me that seven minutes is my maximum attention span.

But the Jones all have whistles and bells tennis shoes so I need them.

I was mentoring a kid (late 20's) and I explained how commercials work and he got mad at me because now the commercials were irritating not entertaining. Go figure, he wanted to know why I didn't bother to watch them.

Brad

....and they are the first ones to break those laws.

It seems business has no morals. So the problem is caused by the the fact that business (with its lack of morals) has too much influence on what was supposed to be a democratic government.

The brainwashing of a society into consumerism and dependance on products, has backfired, and created a society with incompetent workers!

I was unfortunate to have worked for several levels of government throughout my career if that is what it can be called, and I noticed that almost all the managers were people who screwed up in some way and continued to raise to their level of incompetence.

My first experience was with an electrical utility which in Ontario Canada is one level below the dog catcher, all the senior management had been caught doing something they were not supposed to or had screwed up and caused some massive outage. The finical side was run by something called certified management accountants, they needed to be certified, none of them could manage their way out of a wet paper bag and all managed through bullying those under them. I didn't get along well because I didn't put up with that sort of approach and called them on it. I left there over 10 years ago, early retirement sort of and took a position in the federal government more for something to do than anything. I made the big mistake of pointing out ways to gain efficiencies, wrong approach entirely, hard work and innovation in the government is punished, not rewarded. Those who get ahead are the ones who can write those silly tests that everyone has to write to move up.

<end rant mode>

Have a great weekend everyone

Discipline at home is one of the causes. Which some of the blame goes to our do gooders in government. With the enacting of some of the child protection laws they created doubt in the parents in disciplining their children. Too grey of an area as what is and isn't child abuse. Open for interpretation by a individual the social worker which can remove the child from the home.

So in order not to open that can of worms with a social worker you can't get rid of a lot of parents resort to doing nothing. Other resort to rewarding them for just being good with lavish gifts. That I believe there is were they lost their work ethic. What my generation would have to work hard as a child to receive they are given just for being good.

Hmmmm, my take on this is that the people doing the hiring are at fault (not bearing ALL of the fault, just some of it) the guidelines aren't as stringent as they used to be. Every business is (I am sure) tyring to keep the EEO (equal employment opportunity) thing up high so that they aren't hauled in to a court room somewhere and sued by some overzealous PC lawyer. Back in the "old days" a company could be more picky and choosy. Now it just doesn't seem to be the same. In my industry it is like that with the apprentices, get a few that shine and many that well are rough around the edges and then still more that do not last more than a semester or two. Gone are the days in my union of only hiring family and friends, hell I would not have been hired back in the day because: #1 I was TOO old, #2 I had face hair (and did not have a "military" hair cut... they really were striving to do something, what I do not know). I agree also that it is in the up bringing of the kids nowadays, parents do not make time to spend with their kids, lack of discipline, lack of pushing to strive. What else? I do not know ____________________________ fill in the blank

As for the respecting your elders - I totally agree with you. The younger people (well not all of them) just do not seem to respect the older fellows that are around that can teach them a thing or two. We have quite a few foremen in my local that have gotten rid of older journeymen because they "were not as fast" or treated them badly because of their age. I look forward to having a crew and getting an older guy and just picking at his brain... That is after all where a lot of knowledge can be found, not in a book or online (where, yes knowledge can be found) but real world learning and teaching beat the book and pc types of learning hands down.

Big corporations (read this as corporate America) want the younger "dumber" guys that are more impressionable in the office; eventually, getting a leadership type of a job and then told that if they want to keep said position and job that they need to break some backs and some A$$es. For less pay and with less of a benefits package. Read it as how the corporations are trying to get more for less and getting away with it!

Don't get me wrong, I think that there are some young guys (again, in my trade) that know their stuff and treat the older guys good. Just NOT ENOUGH OF THEM !

Well what a great subject. In Las Vegas there is so much "building trades" work that we get all types from all over the country. Alot of them are great old timers and too many are young knuckle heads that have not turned out yet and just dont get it. Too many young people do believe that the world owes them something. They are the same group that believe they owe their kids everything and the kids should not have guide lines. I am a grandpa that has more fun with the grandkids then with the kids, because the grandkids respond to what I say and the kids dont. My son works at my company and he tells people that he can do as he wants because of being a manager. The truth is I dont accept responsibility for him and I have informed my boss that my son needs to go as soon as he does not pull his weight.

In closing I submit a direct answer....Hire people from the midwest part of our country and if possible with prior military service. Day one first hour tell them "the game plan". Be a great coach and dont waiver from the plan. Tell everyone the new members job and require everyone to "help" them do it.

"Drop the bad ones find good ones strengthen the weak ones destroy your competition, give everyone more money" Wow just like old days.

just another old fart rant.

Sorry.

Dcad,

So much for the "stereotypical" cold, uncaring all business Chinese leader. I have never had the pleasure of speaking with anyone that was currently living in your country. Please accept my apology for my opening sentence it is only stated to show my ignorance.

I believe you gave a perfect grasp "the current issue with todays workers". I hope you continue to share your thoughts, I look forward to your wisdom in the future. What is the main focus in your work?

Respectfully.

Mike

AKA The American Fool LOL

Thank you for your insight. Not too long ago, I learned what it meant to be a "newbie". Quite frankly, I was struggling at work to understand why people would treat me the way they do (by the way, they are all much, much older than I am). I very much want to be good at what I do. And about three months ago and even a month ago considered giving it all up, or moving on to my next job. I was that frustrated. I have had to adjust my attitude and continue to re-align my attitude everyday. A great website for this self-focus is www.career-success-for-newbies.com.

I have learned:

1) Toleration

2) Personality quirks are not personal.

3) Your fellow colleagues have very different perspectives on how you work.

4) It is a pay check and you must listen to what they want.

5) Be assertive or else you're not being yourself.

6) Create personal goals.

I realize that even with this insight I may not fit in with my current company-maybe I don't like what they do. After all, if you have passion for what you do, can the way people treat you affect you, and by how much?

I think most of us have abused our 'newbie' colleagues, sometimes in playful teasing, sometimes relentlessly, often in the name of "they gotta pay their dues". What we forget is to balance that with an equal dose of honest encouragement. While it is true that some personalities will always seek to make themselves 'feel better' by stepping on others ... and you'll find this everywhere ... most is just the harmless, albeit annoying, jabs that are a part of life.

The 'newbies' we encounter do come with a lack of experience but high ideals, whereas some of the more seasoned 'oldies' have lots of experience, but maybe have lost the zeal of youth ... its possible that some of us are actually a little jealous. If you can endure, you can learn from their experience, and if you are lucky, some of your ambition just might rub off on them. For as long as possible ... and only you can judge how long that is ... don't give up.

There are indeed places where we may find we just don't fit ... companies have personalities too, and sometimes it's just not consistent with what we want to do, how we want to act, and where we want to go in our lives. But, when the frustrations come, try desperately not to make snap decisions, but instead 'sleep on it'. If you choose to leave, try not to make your decision on the basis of the personalities of your co-workers, because surely people are people, and every company has the same cast of characters. Try not to base your decision on general work conditions, because maybe the next place will be worse. It's possible you can just 'toughen up'.

Without a doubt, I have had jobs (some before my career, and some during) that I truly hated ... I couldn't sleep for thinking about my circumstance, and I dreaded going to work each day. Fortunately, there were only a couple of those, and eventually I did leave. Also, fortunately, most other jobs have had their balance of problems and personal rewards, and all have been an education.

We all face stressful situations, some horrible, and some routine, but it is true that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". No one ever learns from the good times, but it is the problems and pressures in life that make us grow. Try to take one day at a time, and remember to take care of yourself first ... I'm talking basics here ... eat, sleep. Try not to take all the 'jabs' personally ... most are just good fun. Where possible, avoid those who hurt you most, and as far as possible, don't allow their character rub off on you ... maintain your own personal standards. Remember, we are still in 'school', and if we do it right, we will be in 'school' for the rest of our lives.

(Thanks for the link ... I still need to learn more )

Take care.

Excellent response to a difficult situation we have all face at time in our lives.

While I have been at this company for almost 10 years now, because of the position I am in (Maintenance Manager), I get a lot of jabs and playful insults. Its one of those jobs that is always the focus of playful teasing. Sometimes it's rough but you get thick skin after a while at it.

I agree with you on trying not to take their comments to seriously and fully support being yourself in every situation. If you are enjoying the job you are doing and have the go getter attitude then go for it.

I do want to add one thing (well maybe a few things) that I have observed from some of the other old-timers I have worked with. Although I find it refreshing to see a young upstart full of energy and fervor for the new job, some of the other "old-timers" can be a bit put off by it. It does depend on their age though. The older they are the less tolerant they are of the new guy. If a person is 30-40 they might think "Here is another young buck trying to take my job" its quite common. If they are 40-50 they have more of a "Just tolerating you" type attitude. (I fall into that age group but not the attitude) Then you have the 50-60 year people. They are well rounded and have the mindset of "I need to pass on what I know to keep the tradition alive" (This is where I feel my attitude is)

The problem with the 50-60 group is that they want to teach you their way and the is no other way. I will tell you that if you want to learn you need to learn it their way and learn it well their way. After you have thoroughly learned it then you can go off on your own and try new things that might be a better ways. I stress might because until you try it get familiar with it and use it efficiently you don't know.

The main thing for most of these people in all age groups (including myself) is respect. We have taken a lot of time studying, learning, and educating ourselves either through school or experience. I personally love to pass on knowledge to younger guys or 'Newbies'. I enjoy teaching the intricacies of all aspects of my job. I am willing to listen if you have an idea and will tell you why I think it will or will not work. But you need to listen to the answers and ask questions about what you are being taught, not question why you are being taught this way. Some older people only know one way to get the job done and it works for them. They don't want some young, wet behind the ears, pup telling them that what they are doing is wrong. Really pisses them off. Trust me on this one.

Why is a good question though. When you ask it the right way.

"Why do you do it this way?" Good question.

"Why don't you do it this way?" Bad question unless preceded by the afore mentioned good question.

It's all in how you ask and the tone you ask it in.

Sorry don't mean for this to sound like a lecture but I guess it is. People of all ages want to be respected in their positions whether they be a "Newbie" or "Old-timer" or any of the "Tweeners" (I'm a Tweener). I still have a lot to learn, and conversely I have learned a lot so consequently have a lot to teach. There are those I will not teach and those I will gladly teach, but it depends on their attitude and sense of self responsibility.

As DCaD said

"Try to take one day at a time, and remember to take care of yourself first ... I'm talking basics here ... eat, sleep. Try not to take all the 'jabs' personally ... most are just good fun. Where possible, avoid those who hurt you most, and as far as possible, don't allow their character rub off on you"

That and everything else he said is good advice. Oh and congratulations on working hard at your job in spite of the adversity! (I mean that, no sarcasm implied or intended) Keep up the good work and good attitude and you will go far.

I have a question (hoping you answer)- how do you acheive a status of 'high performance'

High Performance, Creavivity, Innovation.... Are all very similar states

A combination experience, knowledge, training & conditions

Recreate the conditions of success!

some need quiet contemplation, planning, support

others deadlines, chaos & pressure

How do you get in the zone?

Remember it's all kindergarten rules and the next job will have another adjustment period. I'll assume you've read "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie?

It is everywhere. It creeps up into management, It is endemic in government. When the soft-hearted soft-heads began saying that every form of discipline was abuse everything went to pot. Now the zero-tolerance zero-thought rules being imposed everywhere are also making things worse. Someone can be the best and be brought down by something totally silly, therefore why try.

Many of them are just there for the money and they do as little as possible to get by. Cashiers let items go through unchecked and unpaid, then wonder why the store goes broke as they play with their friends.

I blame it on the idiots who push self-esteem and feel-good behavior on children and are horrified by strict discipline and corporal punishment.

You are experiencing the product or result of the edu-tainment systems we now subject children to instead of the previous form known as education in which thought and intelligence were entertained as a plausible mental exercise.

Perhaps the most important question to ask in any situation is "why". What I mean is, the average people never fully grasp the true reasons why something happens a certain way, how or why a component fails, and how to properly assess a problem to effectively troubleshoot. It's like a mechanic who replaces a part in your car, but never fixes the electrical problem that fried the relay in the first place. What failed, and "why". Complete knowledge (thorough understanding) on any subject is hard to come by these days.

That is exactly how I try and raise my kids to think..."Why" in every situation. I have 4 kids with a 5th on the way and since they were born, I've tried to get them to think in terms of "why". When there is discipline handed out, I want them to understand why and get them to think about their decision making process that led to their actions resulting in the discipline. Same thing for thier rewards. I troubleshoot stuff for a living so it is my mindset to get to the root cause...don't just keep solving issue "B", but figure out how the system as a whole operates and resolve issue "A" that is causing issue "B".

I think it all starts in the home with how the kids are raised. If they are just given "stuff" by thier parents to appease them, they will never develope a good work ethic and strive for more based on thier perfomance. My kids are rewarded based on the effort they put in. They now understand, that the more you put into something, the more you get out of it.

I hope I'm raising them right with this mentality, only time will tell.

What a great topic and excellent discussion.

When I first joined the work force, Dad told me "What ever you do, do the best that you can" and "Make them wonder how they would get along without you". I know that I have been successful in that regard. I am now working in the most challenging job ever - being a father. My kids will continue on the family tradition of honesty and hard work.

before anyone blames the current generation too much...ask who is reponsible for the society they are being brought up in.....It was us I'm afraid and the children of the 60's...hey man chill out.....

They are a product of their environment...just as were were a product of the post war era...

I still 'make do and mend' whereas the 've been brought up to 'consume'

Del

Agree " They are a product of their environment...just as were were a product of the post war era..."

And the environment is very much the product of the society where we live. Unfortunately democracy has changed from: "majority rules," to "Minority special interest groups that get in the media spotlight rules"

That is truly the base problem of everything.

Lets just hand everything over to the bleeding hearts out there that feel like everyone that has ever been slapped, jilted, laid off, made fun of, lazy, old, tired, overworked, fired, low income, bigoted, racist, religiously biased, to young, beaten, or any other thing that we can think of to get a bleeding heart on board with to make life easier for them.

The media is one thing a the heart of the problem and realistically why do all the people think its any of their business. I worked 3 jobs at one time just to make ends meet for 2 1/2 years. I worked my way up from the trenches only to slide right back down on occasion. But I don't complain about that don't feel as though I have anyone to blame but myself.

But if an employee doesn't feel as if they have been getting paid right they can take it to the media or a lawyer and a company could end up paying a garbage suit a crap load of money.

Sorry but I am getting tired of everything being someone Else's problem. If I don't make enough money doing what I do then its time to move on, get a second job, put the wife to work, improve my education, or start my own business. I don't feel the need to take it to the media, a lawyer, or get some dang special interest bleeding heart group to defend why I am not good enough as I am.

Take responsibility for your own actions and life choices.Thats what we need to get out.

Are we a product of our environment. I think I can disagree to some extent. As an example. How many of you have ever known a preachers son or daughter? How many times have you seen them being the bad kid? Hm? How many of you have seen a kid who's dad was a drunk? How many time have you seen that kid go to bat for a friend or defend them? Are they a product of their environment. Yes but not necessarily the product you would think.But its not about the environment but more so the choices they made within their environment.

We can all choose to blame it on someone else, society, or environment. But I thinks its more the choices you make that make you who you are.

>end rant<

agree "Sorry but I am getting tired of everything being someone Else's problem."

Here IS the root of the problem!

This is the result of a few famous psychiatrists.

Notably:

Sigmund Freud - it must be your parents fault

Maslow - you can't help it it is who you are and what you need

and a few others , I cannot remember,. The common theme of all these theorists is that it is never your fault, all are victims, and you are not responsible for your actions.

I suppose that is what you get when all you study is mentally ill people. Since these people have greatly influenced todays society, what you get, is a mentally ill society that does not accept responsibility for their actions.

Thanks for the vote of agreement techno, and other on this discussion for that matter.

In order to solve the problem we have to:

1. Recognize the problem.

2. Decide how to resolve the problem.

3. Then CHOOSE to resolve it.

I know that it will not be an immediate resolution but if more people choose not to accept the sociological norm at present as what your going to get, then society over the next 20 to 30 years will find it unacceptable behavior and the norm will become abnormal.

The "How to resolve it" is the big question. It is so imbedded in todays society, It is in all the schools, the media, everywhere.

I hoped we could exploit a branch of psychiatry that was on the right track, however, after researching all the theories listed on Wiki, I am sadly disappointed. With all the psychologists, scientists, etc.; none of them even come close to understanding a healthy mind. None talk about responsibility, or the fact that we can change or reprogram ourselves by simply changing our priorities.

I am at a loss as to where to start.

May be a little more touchy feely new age stuff.

Meditation

I'm no expert & this takes many forms: religion, martial arts, any thing that helps you learn disipline & improves your concentration.

On the employer side, employee's need to be part of the process, part of a team. Peer pressure needs to be a positive force. There needs to be defined expectations & nearly immediate feedback. The feedback should be in positive terms. Negative outcomes are learning experiences. In the worst case [say a serious safety violation] the employee would learn to work somewhere else!

Read this book review: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maverick_%28book%29

Expect adult behavior! Everyone will always look out for their best interests, when the interests aren't well defined..... the slope gets slippery fast.

The declining dollar & increasing transportation/energy costs will make outsourcing & the importation of goods less attractive.

Companies should never have been given the same legal status as individuals!

To best solve a problem I was taught to:

1: Recognize there is a problem.

2: Define the problem from as many perspectives as realistic.

3: Look for other symptoms from the problem.

4: Re-evaluate the problems root cause.

5: Once root cause is found then look for solutions- simple to creative.

6: Discern the best or most realistic fix and plan implementation.

7: implement.

For a problem this complex that is not easy. But not impossible.

The thing that always amazed me way how many other problems were resolved or disappeared when you got it right.

Brad

Sigmund Freud - From everything I been able to find not biased by his cult, Freud was a sex offender who wrote down his justifications that became psychoanalysis.

He slept with his students and most of the classical heavyweights of his era were his students.

Psychiatry like weather prediction has to have some fundamental foundation flaws, because the data has increased by magnitudes with very limited gains in predicting outcome.

The gains in behavior prediction I have seen are in marketing to overcome rational behavior to separate you from your money. And like our government that is not altruism.

Weather on the other hand has shown no statistical gain at prediction for 20 years.

As a general rule humans make no effort to discern the long term ramifications of their actions or justifications of those actions.

There has been some major breakthroughs in understanding the brain's workings and this will hopefully force a profound breakthrough in psychology.

I should glue my soap box to the ceiling so I can't get on it.

Brad

Right on! Most of the problem is those bleeding hearts who cry because someone is not a valuable enough worker to be paid more than minimum wage and the poor thing can't live in the manner the BH thnks they should. Instead of getting the education, training and work experience, it should just be given to them.

Labor is bartered for goods and services and both sides have to mutually agree on the value of each person's labor. Unskilled manual jobs are the same now in many cases as they were many years ago. The sandwich which cost an hour's wages in 1930 will still cost an hour's wage today. The high-school dropout busboy who works for one sandwich per hour can't support his teenage bride and 2 children, have a nice car, a plasma TV, etc. So the BH declares that not to be a living wage and says he must be paid the price of 1.5 sandwiches per hour by law with no increase in production as a busboy. The shop owner has to raise his prices, especially since EVERYONE wants to keep the same ratio of pay compared to everyone else and if costs go up at the bottom due to higher wages then everyone needs more money just to stay even. So within a short time the busboy is working for enough money to buy one sandwich for each hour worked and is right back where he started, not being able to live as well as the BH thinks he should.

You could raise the minimum wage to $100 per hr, $1000 per hr or $100,000 per hr and that sandwich would cost one hour of entry-level unskilled work by a busboy. All that is accomplished is huge inflation and devaluing of the dollar. [I know that this is simplified and doesn't take all factors into account, but it is generally correct.]

Well said.

I like the analogy.

But now I'm hungry back in a few after eating my 1/4 sandwich.

Success is a lousy teacher. We learn from our mistakes, and without mistakes we learn very little. Western civilization has been so successful for so long that it has been able ignore its mistakes, and is now almost clueless. We have hypotheses about politics and economics and religion and society and business and human nature that have never been tested in any real sense. But we chose to treat these hypotheses as theories, or worse yet as proven facts.

I think many of us now suspect that there may be a train wreck ahead. It is easy to blame the ignorant masses with poor work habits and attitudes for this, or to blame self-serving leadership, or to blame the shallowness of our entertainments, or our greedy businesses, or dumbed down education, or loss of family values, or religious bigotry, but it is really not about blame. In the west even our poor are fat and happy by world standards. Being fat and happy is great fun. And being fat and happy comes with a price. Think Paris Hilton or George W. Bush.

I could go on and on about which ideas I think are wrong (supply side economics, imperialism, political correctness, winner-take-all, dogmatic and puritanic religion, identity politics, anti-intellectualism, etc.), but in every case there will be a crowd of people who credit that particular idea for their success, and as they say, you can't argue with success.

Trial and error is the best teacher, and error means failure. Fortunately history and nature may be about to help us out of this dilemma. If so it's going to be a rough ride. Good luck, and hold on. There's going to be a lot of learning to catch up on.

The change over my lifetime has been that once you are seen in one position, that is the position you are seen in no matter how well you do, or are willing to take up responsiblity. Therefore I counsel youth to define themselves as they want to be, over what they are really capable of.

The change has come from a complete dependence by corporations on degrees and certifications since they are lazy beyond belief themselves.

The US is going down the tubes in great part because people in positions of power do not respect the working class who gain expertise by doing it. Surviving the job is an experience that many now in power have not really experienced.

Hence it is that I respect the "Slackers" who don't give more than they get.

I'm 55 and everytime I did more than I was paid for, I just got ripped off and insulted or someone else above me in the money chain insulted, or insults my contributions to their wealth.

My experience is in movie making and aviation in the streets, and in the corporations.

The last big corporation I worked for as an employeee was Piedmont, a dead company I hate. Freelance I really have a fondness for NBC.

They hired me non-union for a Saturday Night Live job, and paid me early when Fox was late so I could fix the filmtruck and work on some movie or something.

At anyrate I think the competent worker ought to get their money and go if they don't. There really is not any dependable ethic offered by the employer, so why give more than you are going to get?

If you want more from me, pay me more is the result, though there is the actual truth that those with that attitude do get paid more even when they know less, simply because they have a degree, and the attitude to go with it.

It also has to do with how people see themselves. Many people believe that since they are being hired, they are indispensable, that the company will suddenly stop working at their own will. But this is a lack of leadership by managers. I believe that middle management does not take the next step until their bosses tell them to. Where does proactiveness start or end? Where does self challenge and fulfillment of a well done job stand now? Younger generations believe that the only motivation for working is MONEY and not the satisfaction of finding the answer and putting their thoughts on the line and proving people that their point of view was correct after all.

Another problem many find is that they graduated HS and went to work, learned on the job and were promoted to a good position, then are dead ended because they don't have the college diploma. The company hires someone to be their boss who knows nothing about the business, so the HS graduate is called on to train the new boss so he can give the orders. The experienced person cannot be promoted because "policy" dictates that they must hire someone with a college diploma for the position, yet the experienced person is supposed to happily train the newbie, then take his stupid orders even knowing they are wrong.

If you do not promote from within, send your best out for more education as needed and value your employees, they will not value you or your company. The quickest way to ruin a company is to always hire the workers you can pay the least, the youngest, on the idiotic theory that a young employee will stay with the company longer.

We need a revival of the old values and behavior.

We need a revival of the old values and behavior.

Uh oh, what you mean, we're half way down this theoritical path, you saying we're going the wrong way? Well you could have a good case against fixing what wasn't broken, in fact.

I dunno I've tried talking realistically to folks whom were born in the MTV generation to no avail; virtues, values and ethics are not on the menu.

But you are correct...

This is a wall that I myself have run into on many occasions. Thankfully now I have a job with a boss that recognizes hard work and intellect without the diploma or degree.

I did finish high school and I did go to college for a time but I did not earn a degree. I have now in the 25 years of doing my job earned the knowledge that exceeds the degree. Still however I do not have that little piece of paper.

I am content with my job and enjoy what I do and the pay is not bad but I am sure had I gotten my degree in mechanical engineering I would have been paid more by now.

I will say this though. I would not trade my experience in the school of hard knocks for a day in a classroom. I have just learned to much from to many.

I would like to go back at some point and get my ME Degree though.

That's a good way to put it in a nut shell.

I try to exert influence and fulfil civic duty as an elected official; city councilman. We all should remit something or duty to society in whatever vein we are able.

And despite the bashing of religion I would rather hire someone who was bearably religious and who followed the teachings of his religion over some selfish hedonist who believed only in himself and what he wanted. If you hire a young Amish man to do some carpentry work, you can be fairly certain he will do it and not be watching adult movies on your TV. The same goes for most people who go to church and actually follow the teachings of Christianity. The same with Jewish people and many others.

A fundamentalist of any religion, even of atheism, can be a real pain because they are constantly preaching either for or against God and that causes friction. And that is not to say that an ethical atheist cannot be a good employee or that all religious people will be good employees. But a good, strong religious revival and a revival of the values of our ancestors attitude toward work is needed. Any course can be corrected either through training or tossing the bad navigators overboard, or some of both.

I was a teacher for a number of years and tried to impart more than the basic required knowledge which was becoming less and less every year. Then a class said, "We don't want to know those things. It's too hard to think." That's when I decided to leave teaching. Many children getting out of school undereducated have this attitude. They don't want to learn things, because that would require thinking and it's too hard to think. Entering the workforce they don't want to learn or think because it requires effort. I blame school administrators, the "feel-good" educators, the "not my little noodnik" parents, the "children's rights" advocates, child welfare softheads and stupid politicians for much of this, but most of all I have to blame all the group of people who know that this is the wrong way to go and are afraid to stand up and correct it. I am part of that group, as are probably most on this thread. I voted for the candidates to administer the schools, the sensible, the least objectionable, but they lost to the empty promisers. I don't know what else to do.

Interesting point. I never looked at it that way.

But you are correct and I give you a good answer based on your observance.

An issue is I believe that the entry level works are not truthfully given accurate information of what is expected of them nor how or what type performance will get them where they want to go. Remember these folks have been listening to a guidance counselor...

I think a lot of it has to do with each individual's life road map. It took me a while to figure out where I wanted to go. Was talking to my oldest boy (39 next month) yesterday. We were discussing his getting laid off from where he had worked for a little over 2 years, got slow, so they didn't need the night shift anymore. He was ready for that anyway, said climbing on that tall old rusty equipment dragging around welding leads was killing his knees. (Sand & gravel, blacktop outfit)

I think a very large part of the problem is money...the lack of it. Such a large percentage of employees today HAVE to work, and once they get a job they HAVE to stay there. The bills do not stop coming in every month. Doesn't matter if they are making $10 an hour or $100 an hour, if it is all getting spent every month, they are pretty well locked into that job.

I don't make much money, but I DO enjoy what I am doing. After managing the machine shop for over 25 years I finally got the chance to buy it a few years ago. There was one of our business cards lying there and I asked the boy, "How long do you think I waited for/wanted it to be mine?" He didn't really understand what I was talking about, so I explained to him I had wanted to buy the shop for over 25 years and finally got the chance.

He has worked about 5 jobs since high school and none of them were:Yes, I really like doing this. They were all about getting money to pay the bills and have a little extra to spend on toys.

At 39 years old, he STILL doesn't have an idea of what he wants to do in life.

I think that is the way it is with so many of the workers today. They work to pay the bills but their whole life is lived with money circumstances running where they go, what they do. I don't think the percentage is very high of the people who ENJOY what they do everyday, no matter what the money happens to be. Happiness in your job is big step in being happy in your life.

The people who have learned how to live on the money they make, plus enjoy what they are doing are the "lucky" ones.

And that is a lot of what is wrong with todays workers, they are working in a job that they aren't happy at, and it shows in what they produce and how they interact with others where they work.

No quick fix, and it just gets worse every year as the TV tells them to buy, buy, and buy more, get further in debt, locking them harder into that job they have that they don't enjoy. And after a few years it is dang hard to walk out the door and look for a different kind of work/different place to work. A very high percentage of Americans can't do that. Thus we have people in all kinds of different fields living miserable lives. We can't blame it all on the companies. We have to take responsibility. If you don't like the manager, then work harder, get the schooling you need to become the manager and take their place. And once you become the manager, are you going to be a better one? Treat the people below you better? Ah, we don't know.

I see from some of the posts we have people on here that are in that catagory. Those people know personally how hard it is to break out of the rut and start doing something they enjoy doing, even if it is for less money. If you can find a job for more money and enjoy what you are doing, you have found a win, win situation.

Ken

Spend too much time involved in drudgery and you may become a drudge (no relation to Matt Drudge) without realizing it...

All very good points and well described. I agree with you on the aspects of why we hang on to jobs we don't necessarily like.

The problem with that is how people handle it. Have i enjoyed every job I have ever had? Answer: No. Do I enjoy my current Job? Yes, most of the time. Do I make what I feel like I should based on what the average wage for my position is? Not even close. Is all this going to make me do a poor job? Emphatically No.

What The whole makeup of of this discussion is mostly personal attitude and teachings. People seems to think that since they don't like their job. Since they don't get paid enough, that their job performance should be below average. From this have developed the attitude that "If you pay me more I will work harder."

I have found over a long period of time that paying them more to get them to work harder is a lose-lose situation. I prefer to reward someone who exceeds their job expectation.

From the way you talk you are much like me in that you have never had things just handed to you and you have worked very hard to improve your situation. That is by your own choice, and the choices you have made, have in themselves made your life better. Not because you whined to someone and they had to hand it to you because a lawyer told them to.

This is the root problem. Choice. People are unwilling to make the choice to do for themselves and choose to make their life better. I too have been stuck in my own financial rut and I have had difficulty making ends meet. I did however take steps to correct it n my own. I held extra jobs for more income. I worked with banks to reduce payments. But I have never. I repeat NEVER gone to anyone but myself or maybe my parents to get things back on the right path. I have never told my boss that he needed to give me more money to get me to work harder. I have never thought that either. I am sure you have done a fine job of raising your children and taught them as I have mine that you earn what you make don't get paid more to do more.

I am 45 years old and still not sure what I want to do with my life. I do know this whatever I do and wherever I go I will do the best I can with what I have. I am working on something that I hope will be the job I have always wanted. It will be a partnership business with my best friend who lives in Scotland and we will be have our first business function in August. I will be traveling to Scotland and we will be playing host to 400 golfers.

Now thats a job I can live with.

I feel very much the same with my sentiments about the present-day workforce. Of course I can only speak for my life spent after arrival in the U.S.A..

And, I have to find some fault with myself for thinking the same way as did my father's generation-finish school, work hard, work well, be respectful yet firm, get a promotion occassionally and snag a deserved pay raise. And then get canned after a quarter-century of diligent work only to be replaced by a younger man.

Before I worked as an engineer, I served a toolmaker's apprenticeship where one had to be dutiful and respectful; lest one have his contract broken. And I was a European boy working for a European engineer, so the Old World ideology was there to some degree. But, that is all about me and not the subject at hand.

Towards what/who/when can I cast the blame? I do believe the source of blame has manifold origins. One could blame liberalist views towards education in general-i.e., our federal (and to some extent state-level) government thinks it is more important that a child pass and eventually graduate than to actually learn something useful. One can certainly blame some parents, for "stupid" usually begins at home.

One can blame the behaviour of corporate America, as we repeated read/watch the news about a CEO or other high-level corporate officer who manages/behaves poorly yet continues to receive a tremendous level of compensation and/or a golden parachute-and can be miraculously hired at another firm to squander and plunder. One can blame our institutions of higher learning, as they seem very preoccupied with building new sports stadiums and maintaining a path for university athletes to begin a professional sports career. The annual tuition hikes often seem to be a near parallel of the annual increases of healthcare costs. And for what is the money really spent? The sports teams or improvements/broadening of the education/training curriculum?

Past that it is really hard for me to say, as I am finally at an age where I am beginning to understand the word "nostalgia". Oh, don't get me started with subjects like this, for you will hear me rant. Life is different for younger people than it was when I was younger-no doubt there. There are many distractions now that did not exist in my youth; but one can say that about any comparison between generations.

So, I have no real answers-just my opinions. And while we think we know the solution; is the implementation possible?

Best Regards,

Ing. Robert Forbus