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Milo
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US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/16/2008 8:12 AM

I offer as proof of my claim that a scientifically trained mind is a dangerous weapon (sheesh!) the following story about "earth science majors" being considered security risks by US Dept. Of Homeland Security.

Maybe they were going to create an eartquake? Prove that there is/is not global warming? Now there is a threat!

Or perhaps we should consider this as proof that the "pro's" at DHS are reading- and Michael Crichton's "State of Fear" is the book that they are reading.

Here's the story:

Eight MIT graduate students with student visas were denied a key credential by the Department of Homeland Security. After their department appealed the decisions on their behalf, the DHS declared at least two of the students "security threats."
The troubles stem from a new homeland security program called the Transportation Worker Identification Credential, a plastic card which, like an MIT ID, contains personally identifying information and can be read wirelessly. Without the credential, the students will soon have a harder time boarding and leaving ships at U.S. ports, including the three research ships at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute, where the students work.
The situation was well-known to WHOI, but it only came to MIT's attention yesterday, when a German student forwarded to colleagues in the Earth, Atmosphere, and Planetary Sciences Department a letter from the Department of Homeland Security. The letter said in part: "I have personally reviewed the Initial Determination of Threat Assessment, your reply, accompanying information, and all other information and materials available to the TSA. Based upon this review, I have determined that you pose a security threat and you do not meet the eligibility requirements to hold a Transportation Worker Identification Credential (TWIC)." A British graduate student received a similar letter, said James A. Yoder, dean of WHOI.

Here's the link.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/13/washington/13tsa.html

milo

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dbdwoods
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#90
In reply to #79
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 3:22 PM

Was that what hit the Pentagon also?
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Kwetz
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#97
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 4:01 PM

Me, my family and.... did not particularly appreciate what these people (more likely animals) did on that day.

I think you can delete the suspension points and change it with the name of all CR4 members and most of this world people. And even change the did not particularly appreciate by "specially hate"

I can understand you maybe better than other people because I've had a direct family member killed by ETA terrorists bomb.

But I don't blame on all Basque people. I wouldn't just knowing a few.

The same with "muslims" or "americans" or "europeans" or... whoever you can imagine. As we say in Spain: "In all countries the beans grow"

Even understanding the feelings of terrorist victims and their relatives, How can a man who says he's an engineer (and that should mean he has a minimum critical sense) blame on a particular group of people because some of them were crazy?

Unfortunately, all human beings have our particular "dark side".

Everybody is free of thinking any foolish thing in extreme situations, but it's our mind/will who take the final decision and the mind/will must be well educated in some "human" principles. This will sure make the world a bit safer but THERE'S NO HUMAN WAY TO ELIMINATE CRIMINALS. THEY WILL JUST DISSAPEAR WITH HUMANKIND.

All these paranoid measures some governments are taking are just a way to justify their salary before common people but even if all nation budget were dedicated to safety measures, be sure the day some terrorist group put their hands on a nuke we will cry.

Kind regards

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user-deleted-9
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#98
In reply to #97

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 4:46 PM

Have you read "For Whom the Bell Tolls"?

Great book!

That Robert Jorden was a great engineer!!
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Kwetz
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#109
In reply to #98

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 7:30 AM

Yes, but in Spanish (I understand it better). In Spanish the title was right a direct translation: "Por Quién Doblan las Campanas".

I've read almost all Hemingway wrote. He loved Spain.

Cheers

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#110
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 8:18 AM

As well he should've.

Though this brings us full circle.

As i recall Espana has a rich History that includes a 'Muslim' chapter; with high culture, fine arts, rich education & great libraries as a result.

Then comes 'christianity' (notice the deliberate LC form; didn't want to confuse it with CHRISTianity), they brought the Inquisition & it's intolerance + torture, & ethnic cleansing. Sound like another taliban?

"Let those who are without sin cast the 1st stone"

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Kwetz
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#111
In reply to #110

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 9:02 AM

Yes, you're right but partially.

Spain was Christian before "Muslims" came. At the end of VII century, Muslims invaded Spain from the north of Africa where they have arrived coming from Middle East and they stay here for 800 years.

In the first times when they made Cordoba his capital city, Cordoba was the main European city and the summit of culture. At this time the Cordoba Mosque was used as temple by Muslims , Christians and Jews. It was that tolerant society that allowed the growing of culture and sciences.

Then we have a second Muslim invasion that take over the power, but in this case were a bit more "fundamentalists" and cut the tolerance. This was really the beginning of the end of Muslim domination in Spain.

Once Spanish recover the total country (in 1492 when they drove Granada kingdom down) and at the beginning of XVI century, Spain becomes an Empire. The actual relative freedom we have in western countries are due to the Spanish Emperor Charles I, who break the Turkish empire Wien siege and the subsequent Lepanto Battle which destroyed the Turkish Mediterranean navy stopping the Turkish empire to rule over the complete Europe. Otherwise we can all be now Muslims.

Of course I can't negate the Inquisition fact, but most of written was made by which were at that moment Spain natural enemies (French, english,..) Really Spanish Inquisition made horrible things, but much less than other countries Inquisitions.

Do you know the French Temple Order members were killed theoretically by Inquisition but really by the direct orders of France King who wanted the money of the Order? He convinced the Pope to forbid the Order. In Spain all members were judged by Inquisition and no one was guilty and even most of them became member of some other Orders.

As I'm tired to post in different threads, the evil is not in the Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddists,... It's just some people use religion (and everything they can use) to his own profit.

I'm proud of what first Muslims did, even not being one of them,

But you cannot blame a complete race, religion, profession or whichever group you want by the facts made by some stupid crazies.

P.D Where are the original US people? In Central and South America, (colonized by Spanish people) they still are a pretty percentage of population.

Cheers

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Ferris
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#119
In reply to #111

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 8:29 PM

Actually, the "original" people for the US came over the ice bridge from siberia or something along those lines thousands of years ago. Coming down from Alaska, Canada, the US and then into Mexico, Central America and lastly into South America. At least as we were taught here in school. It would sure make Forest Gumps run seem insignificant... if you take in the terrain and lack of roads, etc.

Ferris

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Kwetz
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#120
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 6:18 AM

Hi Ferris,

I was taught the same about the path of people from Asia to America. My question was just an answer to a previous post in which it seems Christians come to Spain to throw out the Muslims and some false "Spanish Inquisition Black legend", trying to make a comparison between the percentage of "original" population in the US and that of any "At the south of Rio Grande" country that were colonized by Spanish (and Portuguese) people.

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#122
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 7:23 AM

Hello Kwetz!

I think we're pretty much of the same mind here

Most of the human conflicts have been about 'power'; a "'them VS us' (after all, 'we' are better than 'they')" is an easy sell. The unhappy bit is that it is mostly wrong(beating back a conqueror is desirable; SHOULD BE UNNECESSARY!).

If the majority in a 60/40% split is unfair to their fellows; would it not be justifiable, when the demographics are reversed, for similar abuse to be meted out? I'll say not, that true justice should start prevailing, starting NOW! It will be hard, memories are long (particularly when an injustice has been done). As difficult as that might seem, it promises to be more speedy + sure than waiting for the other to move 1st.

Probably every group of humans have gone through a period when their behaviour was not particularly humane the sooner that every one of these are referred to in a past tense, the better!

For my part, i've read the Q'Uran (to see what it REALLY says); as a Protestant Christian, & feel quite surely that all who follow as written will follow quite closely the Judeo/Christian sense of morality!

If we try to paint "them" any other way, we are doing a major dis-service to our understanding of civilisation & morality.

to: Eriew: the most recent troubles in Sarajevo WERE a genocide attempt! We should not gloss over that. As a Christian, i'm appalled that those who proffess my same values would consider this acceptable

to Kwetz: Am ashamed that, in the past, my countrymen felt it necessary to readicate the American aboriginals. Can only hope that we have since learned better humaneness. Human is genetic; Humane adds civilisation +culture.

To Eriew: If we damn 100% to catch 2%, doesn't that add 98% to the list of those who curse us?

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user-deleted-9
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#131
In reply to #122

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 6:10 PM

If we damn 100% to catch 2%

Remember to try and stay focused or start a new thread on your particular topic of interest.

This topic concerns a perceived grievance by Milo caused when two foreign (one Brit and one German) students were denied TWIC according to James A. Yoder of Woods Hole O.I. Why so and is it fair or righteous or in the US or CR4 best interests to do so?

Then the tread drifted off in a thousand different directions having nothing whatsoever to do with the issue at hand.

We (in the USA) get this all the time since 9-11-2001 in the liberal media (New York Times, CNN, etc.). In each case, the story never mentions two key facts in the storyline. Consequently, in each case on talk radio, blogs, and those in the USA who consider themselves to be conservative, ask these two question knowing quite well that the liberals will never answer them but instead continue to spin, weave, and dance. The two questions always are:

1) Was the perpetrator/victim/aggrieved party (subject of the news story) an undocumented work (aka illegal alien)?

2) Was the British (or whatever) student of middle-eastern background?

We ask these question because in most cases one or the other are true and quite relevant to the matter at hand.

So, I ask the CR4 members who are so sure that Homeland Office has committed some great travesty, please answer questions 1 and 2 above before drifting off further into "moon-bat" village.

AFAIK, 2 people out (one Brit and one German "alleged students") out of 20 million (illegal guests) does not compute to 2%. That would be what Mr. Bush calls "fuzzy math".
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user-deleted-9
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#114
In reply to #110

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 10:14 AM

though this brings us full circle

No not really. You don't mention how another crazy muslim started the world war at Sarajevo.

This of course directly led to the second world war. Next will be the final one once they get their nukes.

This circle is still being drawn. Pause, I've got to go get my compass to draw some more circles.
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#115
In reply to #114

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 11:04 AM

Sarajevo has been in conflict much more recently than that.

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#116
In reply to #115

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 11:20 AM

True.

Remember what the focus of this thread started out to be: "de facto security threats to the USA".

By screening more carefully who we let in to the USA, we can avoid the problems that have plagued Europe for hundreds of years.

"Bring us you huddled masses........ yearning to be free..." go the words on Miss Liberty overlooking New York Harbor.

But this does not mean bring us those that want to kill us, steal technology from us for their brothers to use to kill us, etc, etc, etc.

We do not want to create another Sarajevo here in the US. Nor do we (I) want to return to the sixth century. That is the point.

If you can't play nice here you don't come. KISS (keep it simple stupid).

Now what part of this concept do you still not understand?
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sidevalveguru
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#117
In reply to #116

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 11:28 AM

What part of too broad a brush...?

Myself, i've been told that the Commonweath of Massachusetts is much to Liberal to be a useful part of the USA; Maybe we should start by restricting ALL of THEM?

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#118
In reply to #117

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 11:55 AM

broad brush

My brush is broad because I'm trying to stay on topic!!!

I deliberately left out the fact that Bill Clinton supported Kosovo before their cousins rewarded us by attacking New York.

You are a $%^$$#$$^$%(^& nice guy so let's continue to be friends.

we should start by restricting ALL of THEM

I don't know who "we" is, but I'm guessing I've been throw out of worse places than that. Quite proudly, I dare say. You do know that the New Hampshire state motto is "Live free or die". A great motto, never quite understood it, but it has a nice touch. Don't you think so?

Mass is liberal and not useful

Good. That settles the argument. The need to bring foreigners to Woods Hole, Massachusetts is mute, since Massachusetts is not useful. I will fire off a letter to the Governor immediately. This thread is now closed.

My avatar has advised me to stop typing and I have agreed.
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#112
In reply to #109

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 9:36 AM

Yes Spain is a great country. I have been to Barcelona. But not everyone there likes Madrid. Forever Catalonia it seems to be.
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#121
In reply to #112

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 6:27 AM

Hi eriew,

Yes, you're right. There are Catalonian people who doesn't like Madrid and vice-versa. But "nationalism" is a form of "fundamentalism". Remember Hitler was the head of the "National-Socialist Party". It's a pity, I have many catalonian friends and I've gone there for holidays a lot of years and even I can read catalonian language (speaking not too well).

Cheers

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#77
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 8:43 AM

Thanks Milo,

we need to know that US citizens will continue to value the freedoms that built and defined their country.

Simon

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#94
In reply to #77

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 3:48 PM

Just curious:

Where does this comment tie into the discussion. Our freedoms are being taken from us almost as fast as we can speak. How are they being supported also? I mean we still have the right to bear arms in most states. Killing ourselves seems a sacred right I guess. Meanwhile this posting will have all of the freedom lovers listed, tabulated, qualified as to threat level.

If we actually valued freedom so much, wouldn't we march in the streets like the Canadians, French, Argentineans?????

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#96
In reply to #94

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 3:58 PM

Or the Chinese in Tienanmen Square? I doubt that will be touted as a tourist attraction during the upcoming Olympic Games, but I for one would love to visit there. Probably not as impressive as Bunker Hill, but quite as significant, eh?

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#123
In reply to #96

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 7:46 AM

Very much stuff half-said in this one!

The "Battle of Bunker Hill" was fought @ Breed's Hill

The !st casualty of the American Revolution was 'Chrispus Attucks', a 'man of colour', in the "Boston Massacre".

Would dearly like to see the 'British version', in the popular press, of these events; am expecting terms like "insurgent", "rebel", & "enemy" would have appeared often.

As always: the winner writes the History.

BTW: the American Experiment has afforded many improvements that simply wouldn't've been possible in the classic British CASTE system; i'll vote an A+ for vision, & an A- for execution of the ideal.

Tienanmen: the most purely 'individual freedoms' demonstration i've ever witnessed; BRAVO to all participants! We must all pray that it works. Am fearing that this site will be 'off-limits'

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#124
In reply to #123

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 8:06 AM

'classic British CASTE system.'

??? Eh? What?

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Milo
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#127
In reply to #124

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 10:17 AM

Del, it is pretty well established over here that over there, the scottish fold, manx and cornish rex are held to be in a different status (Caste?)then the british shorthair and devon rex. Something to do with the schools they attend, etc. etc. etc.

We look forward to your report that says it isn't so...

milo

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#141
In reply to #127

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 11:16 AM

Obviously a case of mispropouncination - "cat" system heard as "caste" system...

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#126
In reply to #123

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 8:43 AM

What 'caste' system do we supposedly have then???

You must be mistaking the UK for India and their caste system.

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#128
In reply to #126

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 11:47 AM

My apologies; caste was a poor choice of word.

What i had in mind was in former times.

Land & political priviledge, & education as an inhehitance. Still happens, of course, but not so firmly entrenched in law as formerly.

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#129
In reply to #128

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 2:51 PM

Ohhhh.... you mean the class system of upper class, middle class and lower or working class...

I think that has almost been dispensed with, although there are still your snobs, suburbanites and your layabouts !!!!

John

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#130
In reply to #129

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 4:31 PM

I looked for the classic 'I know my place, I look up to them both' sketch from the Frost Report...but I couldn't find it as a stand alone piece...but hey ..we all know it anyhow!

Del

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#134
In reply to #126

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 6:30 PM

There is a caste system in the UK.

The lower class play football while the upper class play rugby (or at least that is what I am told).
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#132
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 6:23 PM

Since the American Revolution started after the Boston Massacre, any prior casualties including those at Bunker Hill don't count. The revolution officially began on July 4, 1776 when war was declared. Trouble began 10 years earlier when GB started to tax and bother the colonies because of their debt incurred during an earlier war with France.

Please start another thread to discuss the Chrispus Attucks affair and it's relevance to the CR4 engineering forum.

Please start your own thread on Tienanmen Sq.

Please start you own thread on all the other stuff that you seem to have saved up for this occasion.
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#135
In reply to #132

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/20/2008 9:14 PM

I just reported this post to the CR4 admins. I feel that an Off-Topic vote wasn't enough.

I stopped hanging out on another forum because of drama like this. CR4 is place for professionals, not....

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#136
In reply to #135

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 7:15 AM

Good for you.

I am also considering dropping out of the CR4 forums. I have similar concerns.

People can't stay focused and they bring "hidden" agendas.
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#137
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Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 7:45 AM

RAOFPMSL.....

It's easy...just don't join in the threads which aren't engineering..
Like this one... it was glaringly obvious from the start that this one would get political.

We all get the oportunity to air our prejudices, and of course some of us will disagree with eachother.
It doesn't do any harm to hear other views...

Some folk are rather parochial in their views and believe the world revolves around their nation, it does them no harm to hear a wider voice...but it is a free choice...just unsubscribe when you've had enough.
If anyone get abusive then report them (it rarely happens).

Del

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#104
In reply to #94

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 6:27 PM

dbdwoods, my comment was referring to Milo's very reasonable statement of personal beliefs,#74 i think, which i found impressive, and said so. I wasn't suggesting the issue which Milo originally raised isn't a serious infringement of freedom, just that Milo's specific statement was a pleasure to read.

Simon

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Steve S.
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#83
In reply to #74
 Find in discussion

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 10:24 AM

Amen! And a GA from me
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#84
In reply to #83

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 10:47 AM

Thanks. Your band is gonna miss you when you're out of town...

milo

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Steve S.
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#107
In reply to #84

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 7:27 PM

I will join a new one.. I am sure there will be opportunities in Malaysia to play, and I am bringing all my gear...
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#113
In reply to #107

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/19/2008 9:51 AM

Where there's music, there's laughter!

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#72

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/17/2008 11:59 PM

AFAIK means As Far As I Know IMHO ;)

Maybe the anger from outside comes from the fact that that the american (Government) always does things in the name of democracy, that they accuse the "evil" nations off.

Most of the problems in Africa and the middle east are caused by previous American (and European) influences.

We reap what we sow

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user-deleted-9
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#87

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/18/2008 12:02 PM

Well, here is one bloke we need not worry about for one year while he does some jail time.

threat sent to "Big House"

Maybe Muntasser can convert some of the other inmates to his cult religion.
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#138

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 7:50 AM

Hi, eriew and 3Doug,

Why are you obsessed with fighting?

Of course, CR4 is a forum in which professionals (mainly engineering ones) can exchange their knowledge, but I think also can exchange their points of view on some other things... and I bet my one year salary (and I use to win) that larger and most posted threads are just that which deals with something more that just a technical question. I've get into many of those and it rarely exceed 4 or 5 answers (one of the previous was already correct)

As an example, one recent thread on "idyllic images" overpassed 200 answers. I never saw such a lot of answers in a pure technical thread!!.

Moreover: the Milo's OP began with the phrase I offer as proof of my claim that a scientifically trained mind is a dangerous weapon and then told an US example. But this behaviour is not a "US property", unfortunately it's also normal on this complete planet.

The behaviour of US Dept. Of Homeland Security about this two people is just one part of the problem. I consider reasonable they have some doubts about one "Middle eastern man", but I think one of the main basis of our democratic system is that everybody is innocent unless it can be proved he's guilty. If those men cannot investigate deeper to determine if that people are really a threat or not, they have two options: clearing access or let their jobs to more efficient people.

A related example: yesterday, ETA terrorists explode some bombs on Santander province beaches, just where I will go for holidays on 10 days, but I will never accept some policeman or similar could forbid any Basque people to pass the borderline between Vizcaya and Santander provinces, just because ETA terrorists come from Basque country!!!!

Please, don't be angry.

Cheers

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Steve S.
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#139
In reply to #138

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 7:55 AM

Very well put, and a good answer!

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user-deleted-9
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#140
In reply to #138

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 8:09 AM

mr. sidevalveguru had been wearing on my nerves for about a week so I finally insulted him, 3doug decided to become the thought police (see "1984" by George Orwell for details) and reported me, CR4 Administrators edited my post, and

NOW YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY.

I did see a scroll go by on a cable news feed yesterday about Basque separatist problem and immediately thought of you. I did not get the details, but was sadden by it nevertheless, in part from increased awareness gained from this thread.
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3Doug
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#143
In reply to #140

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 11:42 PM

Thought police? Did I dispute your opinion on the issue or say you should not be allowed to state your opinion? Who's acting like thought police, now?

Again I reported you for your personal attack on me.

If I were you, I'd quit while I'm behind.

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user-deleted-9
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#145
In reply to #143

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/22/2008 7:24 AM

If I were you

But your not!

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3Doug
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#146
In reply to #145

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/22/2008 5:57 PM

I'm more glad of that than you are!

BTW, it's "you're", and not "your." "Your" is a possessive, "you're" is a contraction of "you are."

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#155
In reply to #145

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/25/2008 8:14 PM

Damnit, I am gone from this thread for a while and I come back and nany nany boo boo insults are being hurled back and forth. I do not quite understand how anyone could go on attacking anothers point of view... strange indeed. If you do not like what it is (the others' point of view) then leave the forum, or just 'man' up and let another mans opinion fly. There is enough shit going on in the world in this day and age that we need to put our minds to... School yard antics? Nah, leave 'em where they lie...

Ferris

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#156
In reply to #155

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/28/2008 6:24 AM

Oh, do calm down, they're just exercising their positions as security threats - by being insecure...

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Ferris
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#159
In reply to #156

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/28/2008 10:34 PM

knot bad for a bunch of bubbles with purtty calors ......

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#160
In reply to #159

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/29/2008 7:56 AM

Don't you recognize it? That's the stuff of life as we know it around here...caffeine!

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Ferris
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#161
In reply to #160

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/29/2008 7:04 PM

Oh, ok... that is what, my morning coca cola can be designated with

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3Doug
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#144
In reply to #138

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 11:55 PM

I was just responding to what I saw as a personal attack on another poster. Just because you don't agree with someone else's opinion, that is no reason to insult them.

I have seen insults on CR4 elsewhere, but they were made in jest. The insult I seen here was serious, and that does not belong on a forum for professionals.

All I could do was report it and let the CR4 admins decide how to handle the situation. If I had been wrong to report it, they would have done nothing.

Actually, I think the admins should lock down this thread.

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#148
In reply to #144

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/23/2008 8:56 AM

"Actually, I think the admins should lock down this thread."

3Doug, When I originally posted, I was concerned by what I saw as a creeping trend ("friction" or load ) making it more difficult for us to do scientific/ technical/ engineering work.

How Engineers/ scientists are "respected" in a society and by its security apparatus I thought to be worthy of consideration by those of us with a "skin in the game."

It does not take too long a view to see that travel rights could be "restricted" by those thought to have "special knowledge." In the case mentioned, access to ones legitimate worksite was made much more difficult.

Thinking people are never unarmed (if they have their brains along), and if "unarmed"or " not a danger" becomes a de facto requirement for free and unfettered travel, The technical community will be the one most affected.

I think this a worthy topic, but obviously one capable of pulling out strong passions.

milo

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#149
In reply to #148

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/23/2008 11:41 AM

Not many years ago, travel restrictions on the citizenry were a part of the "threat of the Red menace" from the cold-war USSR and a part of horror stories left over from NAZI-occupied Europe. Now it is just beginning to rear its ugly snout here in the "land of the free". We have no cause for concern. What we have is reason to panic! (Am I the ONLY one that thinks Michael Chertoff looks like a character out of Dr. Strangelove?)

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3Doug
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#153
In reply to #148

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/23/2008 7:57 PM

I can see your point about never being unarmed. When I was in the National Guard, I heard someone say that anything could be used as a weapon. All it takes is some imagination.

Later, when I was an emergency management volunteer, the leaders put us through the Emergency Response to Terrorism training. At the end of the course, I realized they gave us enough information that we could all become terrorists if we wanted to. The key phrase there is: if we wanted to.

When the gov't assesses a person for security reasons, they should look at the person's background, character, etc., anything that indicates the person might have a motive or motivation to act against the nation's interests. That, I believe should take precedence over external factors. Of course, look out for weapons, but consider the whole situation.

I made the comment about locking down the thread because I saw an unprofessional tone developing, and didn't want it to continue. It has stopped, and I imagine this thread will die down soon. I expect this issue will come up again in other threads. When it does, and if I decide to follow the thread, I will probably keep an eye on the tone of the comments.

Actually, any member of CR4 can report any comment or post they deem inappropiate. The CR4 admins are the ones who have to decide what is and isn't. They haven't posted any particular set of guidelines because of the global scope of CR4, so I presume they expect professionals should know how to act.

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#154
In reply to #153

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/23/2008 8:27 PM

3Doug i agree on you on many points but not on your "I will probably keep an eye on the tone of the comments."

You are not a moderator, you can make comments about.

I thought freedom of speech is also important. It exposes the nutjobs from the sane ones. discussing is an art. and too many people take comments too personal.

take the birds-view eye, then make a comment.

(i think i am sane but maybe i am one of the nutjobs )

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#142

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/21/2008 7:56 PM

It seems that some people cannot accept any view but their own, That is not called a discussion but a monolog.

It is same as those people that attack TV channels when there is something on that offends them. You have another zillion channels(or threads) with nothing on.

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#147
In reply to #142

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/23/2008 12:47 AM

They call those mindless attackers, "Right Wingers". Folks of that persuasion do the mindless attack thing real good you know.
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#150
In reply to #147

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/23/2008 11:43 AM

Yeah, but a well-thought attack is often harder to defeat...

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#157

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/28/2008 1:43 PM

Knowledge is power. If you have more than me you become a security threat.

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#158
In reply to #157

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/28/2008 7:50 PM

Stopped at the airport;

Sir, do you or do you know not, the playmates measurements of the last 50years?

we do not want this sensitive information fall into enemy hands!

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#162

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/30/2008 12:01 AM

To the paranoid security types, possessing knowledge of how to do harm automatically proves a person is a threat. Protesting that classification proves you are a threat and the reason you are a threat is a secret that you cannot be told, because you are a security threat. Good old Catch - 22 and circular reasoning. On top of that they were the most dreaded of knowledgeable types: foreigners.

It would only seem reasonable that MIT, WHOI and their respective governments should be informed of the exact nature of of their threat as well as the students involved. Since this action may affect their lives and careers it is only just that they be allowed this information and have a chance to challenge it in court.

As a strong Constitutional conservative I both support the DHS and the rights of the individual. The DHS should have that power, but it should be used openly and with the ability to be challenged. If DHS can prove they are a threat in open hearings, that is acceptable in the American sense of justice. If not, the DHS should give them the TWIC.

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#163
In reply to #162

Re: US science folks are de facto security threats?

07/30/2008 3:08 AM

Amen! and GA.

Just one foreigner comment: I'm not American but I've the same justice sense.

Kind regards

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