A well-intended reply, to be sure—but in that it paints everyone, and yet no one in particular, in non-specific terms and sweeping generalities, does it not commit the very offense it purposes to decry?

You stated:

Perhaps there will be no Olympics since no country can play fair?

Perhaps guests will not be allowed to post since they can not play fair?

But such a focus on fairness, if you think about it, misses the point completely in that fairness goes to the matter of trust. But the offense has nothing to do with violation of trust and everything to do with a willful failure--a willful refusal--to play by the rules. After all, it is just because trust is a social commodity that can be proferred for a price that rules are promulgated; it is out of mutual mistrust that all participants agree to abide by rules of the games. One need not search for a motivation or higher meaning in terms of trust because the rules of the games, known and consented to by all, obviates the need. Should those who play by the rules do so to their own detriment? Would it not be then, when the rules mean nothing, that the Olympic games and ideals are most at risk?

Recently in the US some high achieving athletes, including gold medal awardees from previous Olympiads have been forced to submit to punishment and shaming--and relinquishment of gold medals--as a price for not following the rules. Would we say that those rule breakers, by being held to account, were treated in an irrresponsible, bitter, and uncivil manner...and should be given their medals back?

Cheating is not about countries, race or sex. Its human.

Who doesn't cheat? Download MP3? Movies? Steal cable TV? Lied? I do all of the above so I won't be judging others. Its wrong but we all do it anyway. Why? To get that extra edge from others. So we can get ahead, even by that little bit.

Fair? Since when do we live in a "fair" world? Maybe even never. Do you think politicient and big business owners are successful because they're 100% honest and fair? Our world/society/culture don't reward honesty. The best cheater stay ahead of everyone else.

Where do we get best cheater/scammer? Poor countries where people will do anything to stay alive.

We used to call "cheating" "fair competition" until the "losers" change the "rules". Problem is there is only 1 winner and everyone else is loser. So the majority set the rules to "level" the playing field. They've all forgot a "leveled" playing field will have no winner.

Yes, it is sad and its human. We can't remove it from our life, so we'll have to learn to live with it.

"Do you think politicient and big business owners are successful because they're 100% honest and fair? Our world/society/culture don't reward honesty. The best cheater stay ahead of everyone else".

But when caught, nailed to the wall.

That's a fairly pessimistic world view there, Pineapple... Personally, I prefer to believe that dishonorable means are never justified, no matter how honorable the ends achieved.

I agree. It's hard to know every intimate detail of people's lives, but I know many, many business owners that have the highest scruples.

I'm not perfect, don't claim to be religious, but, Pineapple, I surely don't do the things you listed. I am guilty of often exceeding the speed limit. I get ahead by working harder.

In the end, I don't really care how far I get. I just want to know I did the best I can.

"We used to call "cheating" "fair competition" until the "losers" change the "rules"."

Huh?

It's about war...and hatred. We want to be loved. They don't care if they're hated. So we pay for them to have Olympics...an ultimate ritual display of warlike hatred concealed by a mask of brotherly love mutterings and rantings. So maybe some cheat? How else would you have it? It's Olympic (size) "games," after all.

No absolutly fair in the world, in the games.

so I think we'd better take easy, release to see the wonderful match other than useless arguement.

next olympic games will be hold in Britain. how and what will they do?

I hope the International Olympic Committee will look at the problems that arose in the 2008 games and try to eliminate any one and any country from having an unfair advantage. Will they stop all cheats? No. But they will try as hard as they can to make the rules fair, and apply them to all.

Will we consider country with lots of money to spend on athlete as "unfair advantage" to poor country? How about country with technology advantages? Are those "fair" or "unfair"?

We can keep adding/changing rules to make it "fair" but what's the point? Is Olympic about rules and regulation? Are we watching it to see who cheat and who's not? Are we here to dig up dirt to find athlete to disqualify?

Unless every athlete is allow access to same training facility, resource, technology, method, there will not be fair.

We've been getting further and further away from true Olympic spirit.

Just want to stir up the pot

pff, they should legalize steroids, robotic legs and arms and whatever else is illegal. At least then the games would be amazing to watch! Nothing like see someone run the 100 m in 2 seconds with a jet pack on his back.

I agree, it would stop all talk about cheating. But only if it is a free choice to ruin the athletes body with "enhancements"

Jamaica, one of the smaller, poorer, Carribbean island nations, is routinely kicking everyone else's hiney in track, so where does the advantage lie? Even the Kenyans can't keep up with them! Me, I LIKE it! (The competition, that is...)

what are they laugh?

Let me join and play...

I dont think most of you out there watched the instant of games.

I post some for your apprecialtion. In fact, you can also visit www.google.cn for more pics.

Cheers!

I ve got all man swimming items gold medals...

ha，the girl can lift so high thing

I win.

lost scores again!why?

816basebal

This is a wonderful sports, like shooting, no only have you muscularity(nearly 40kg for a woman and more strong for a man), but hve to concentrate all your mind to get the goal. dont perturb by sound arround you.

I like to watch this sport.

korea woman sporter was failed to the strain and presure. only one ring difference.

China has many archers scince ancient from 2000 years ago so far as I know . many chinese stories relate to it.

anyone out there also like this sport?

all you diffrent cnpowers are busy today not much real work being done.

cry? look at this, shoot you.

The Olympic Board has demanded that China produce Birth Certificates of the Chinese Gymnastics contestants.

Ya, and they can forge those too.

No way.

Chinese wouldn't do something like that.

I think the Certificates would be analized for forgery.

Are you being sarcastic here? The point of the original article is that the passports are altered. This would be very easy to do, after all, the state issues passports. Do you think a birth cert. would be any more difficult?

Yes, I was being sarcastic in my first two lines but I do place a little faith in the last line.

I would think the Chinese Government would much rather not get gold medals rather then face the humiliation of loosing face from cheating if it's proven.

"I would think the Chinese Government would much rather not get gold medals rather then face the humiliation of loosing face from cheating if it's proven."

If they did cheat, then they are already past the point of no return in that regard.

In my opinion , even if no further evidence is ever found, the 2008 Olympics will forever be remembered for the questionable ages of certain participants.

Forever is a long time. Most people can't even recall the last Olympics.

For that matter, lack of public recollection is the fuel for bad politics.

The only Olympics I recall are the 1976 Olympics.

The only other is when it was in North Korea and the Korean Judges weren't very impartial.

I tend to think that the 2008 Olympics will be remembered for the absolutely amazing opening and closing ceremonies.

But not about that which was in between?

Yes, of course. It will also be remembered by the records broken, including those of Mr. Bolt of Jamaica and Mr. Phelps of USA. But people tend to remember the atmosphere more than particular events and the atmosphere will likely be depicted on television screens showing the opening and closing ceremonies.

the easiest way to check what someone age is to make an X-ray and check the bones.

Hello Epke

Kind Regards....

Andy, you seem to lool like a politician rather than an engineer.

Look at your thread, dont you think you go so far away from the top thread topic?

everyone can doult every thing, its their right. not only was this topic discussed here, but appeared in our chinese web sites early in July. I found them after I know this thing form this place. although lots of such threads cannt be opened or quashed. its not very important things for the games.

our goverment does their best for the games. and spend lots of money. I think every athelet will satisfied with their visiting china. include those countless reporters, conrespondents, they have a good food to eat and can go a trip around bejing. if you have a friend in the delegation, you can ask them fro details.

Rules is made by man so it can be easily changed by man as well. what is Olympic games spirit? what is modern olympic games? it different from old one. Have you ever read in your papers? that J.A.samaranch led a group of grafters in his IOC? all is money playing a main role.

I think this time the IOC memebers may get many profit from our country than in other games in other countries.

you only have an old brain. and cannt keep up with new development in the new situation.

"Methinks that you doth protesteth too much!! (Saying in old English - almost!!)

That is a typical reply that you have given us, its the same way the Chinese Government tries to fix everything with blue flashes and talk of something else!!! Don't mind the people, aren't the trees great.....?

If either of us are politically minded, then its obviously you going by your riposte!! Its certainly not me ol' Buddy!!!

China is a country where free speech is simply not possible, where hundreds of people are shot every year for almost anything, usually a bullet in the back of the head, the same methods as used in the GDR for many years......

Here is the first part of a report from Amnesty International's web site:-

China Human Rights

Amnesty International has documented widespread human rights violations in China. An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial, and millions are unable to access the legal system to seek redress for their grievances. Harassment, surveillance, house arrest, and imprisonment of human rights defenders are on the rise, and censorship of the Internet and other media has grown. Repression of minority groups, including Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians, and of Falun Gong practitioners and Christians who practice their religion outside state-sanctioned churches continues. While the recent reinstatement of Supreme People's Court review of death penalty cases may result in lower numbers of executions, China remains the leading executioner in the world. Review our annual report on China human rights violations.

I would think that I need say no more about China, or its human rights record or Politics!!!! This says it all. Of course, you will not be able to look at that web site though CNpower......it will probably be blocked!! But just in case its not, here is the link.....

The article was taken a few minutes ago from:-

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-priorities/china/page.do?id=1011134&n1=3&n2=884

Andy,

I wouldn't judge the people for the government.

When we talk about issues like that to someone that is a citizen of that country they're going to take it personal.

All it does is open the door to have issues about our own countries thrown back at us. Then it's just a matter of opinion which is worse.

All the people of Chinese heritage that I've met have been nice people and I've met a lot.

The government consists of people in power and if you haven't heard this saying then I'll repeat it:

"Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Amen to this!

If all our Governments could relax a bit, humankind could amount to so much more.

I agree, Jan.

I love to travel, and go out of my way to speak the language, and to befriend locals, (fortunately, many people speak English much better than I speak their language).

The ubiquitous view is that "We like Americans, it's your government we dislike". That can be a 2 way street.

Never, on any thread here at CR4, have I heard a discouraging comment against any peoples of the world.

So any comment aimed against a country here, is in reference to the political ruling party. Everyone should chill out on this. CN is a good guy, he is honorable, honest and open. I hope CN, (or anyone else), realises any comments I've made here are not directed at him, or his people.

All of us here have more in common than not.

Well put, what you say goes for me too.

I dont mind if anyone like to attack me mineself. if he would has enough reason and excuses. for example my chinenglish, my wrong or stupid engineering answer which misguid elementary learner... you cn even make a fun to some sporters singers and film stars etc.

I really dont wish to see any words of attacking my country. hope you all understand.

However there is an engineering forum rather than political bbs.

I am not attacking you.

I am not attacking China.

I am posting unfavourable facts about China, verified by well respected International organizations.

I would be immensely concerned if such things were happening today in Europe. Luckily, since Hitler is dead, that has happened relatively few times since!

Ignoring these facts is just another form of condoning them, that I simply cannot and will not do. The more you or anyone from China does that, the stronger I feel about it.

You can either believe the facts I have brought up, or ignore them if you wish, but trying to in someway make them disappear or to just simply to disbelieve them is wrong wrong wrong.

I do realize that there is little you can do personally to change China, remember we all have that problem in common with one another.........China is simply too big to change easily.....but might is not always right!!!!

I hvnt yet written a word of you against me. anyone who is good at english can't found it from context. What I want to advice is don't paste any of such text. you are wasting your time. I have not capability to read it even under help of dictionaries. the speed of my learning English is far more behind that I forget them. I come here for no other than just amusement.

Another side, we know what has happened in recent China since 1919. I have learned chinese history and experienced some polical movements and almost chinese intelents known most of main events took place in fron of there since then. Students met together in front of Tienanmen on May 4th 1919. the 5.4 movement or called modern new cultural movement bring china into new era. in the great prole.c cultral revoltn. there were many events took place on the square. and anti-right before that time. and then workers got out ot work after and private enterprises occurred. etc. people can get news from various traces.not only by web net.

Now more and more foreigner investors torrent into chinese market. most of them earned much than in their own countries. ofcause a few of them not.

if anyone out there is coming to invest. I maybe help a little and not to such an extent as to unknown IC and Gauss filter. I'm enjoying watching new world records was broken by unknown name athelets while eating ice cream in front of TV set . but I don't like beer. haha.

ah, correct the word of above thread. mineself = myself.

not seem, certainly yes.

a group of teams, several wise knowledge bases,

that is why all of you cannt compete.

you are beated. and can say nothing.

My god, you are watching my every action and words in hide places. haha

haha, do you know 3 heads, 6 arms and 9 heads birds with 108 kinds of changes?

Andy,

I agree with you.

Now that the Olympics are over, no one can cheat in them anymore then they already have.

As the opening post states, if they are under age then Yes, they should be disqualified.

If the facts come out years later they they were under aged, they will have their gold medal status revoked.

"I really dont wish to see any words of attacking my country. hope you all understand."

I understand well, i'm very fond of my own country as well.

I often have discussions with my father (of the WW2 generation) about the necessity of holding any government to the highest standard, perfection, as the model. His view tends toward that if 'they' are 'bad', we're off the hook regarding ultimate standards. That anything required to stay on top is acceptable.

I can understand why he feels that way. I also believe it wrong. If we allow ourselves to engage in sub-human behaviour in response to heinous acts, we are, in the end, just sub-human.

Let us all attempt to RAISE the level of civilisation?

Those who experienced war and turbulance ages cherish peace and quiet living more than teenages.

I am not picking on anyone other than the government of China, but certain people here are seemingly either unaware of the true story, or are spreading propaganda, which is why I took the first paragraph of the page of Amnesty International as an example.....

The problem for us on CR4 is that there are people, actively working for the Chinese Government in reality, who are paid to go on websites and blogs around the world and try and give a completely inaccurate version of what goes on in China (Russia, GDR, Cuba etc etc.) It is completely impossible for us to be certain of "WHO IS WHO?".......

Anyone who wants to know and understand the true facts is hereby invited to look at AI's pages from time to time......

Remember, the most ignorant of all of such happenings are generally the people IN THAT COUNTRY!!! They are "protected" from "evil" Western News sources as a matter of course, but that does not mean that they should remain ignorant!

I visited the GDR many times before its demise and spoke with many of its citizens first hand, I know exactly how they get "protected!" I knew many STASI employees, before and after the wall came down. Did you know that around 14% of GDR citizens worked for the STASI???

Its the same in any of the countries I mentioned!!

I don't know what is human right. I m a realist. I'm able only to know if one works in a company industriously, but his boss pays him only a little unfairly or fire arbitrarily, this boss would be abused very much and would be punished. Do you think this is only a little things and can be ignored? My english is the worst, I cant read what you list so long text even under help of dictionary. but I can guess what you want to convey to us. As matter of fact, in our state TV station, we often see such issues asked by reporters. this is really difficult issue to answer, different ideology has different answers. no standard. What I cn reply you is if we have meal to eat, clothes to wear, house to live, that will be human right. I hvnt got a great capable and talent to answer your depth political problem. I can only live by work, hard work. maybe you neednt work as a politician. I wish to know who is propagandist and what contents is he spreading? who is listing this and that long text to others? I can say I work for my country. no suspicious. Dare you to say you don't work for your government and your country?

He's referring to things like the Government firing upon and killing college students who were holding a protest rally.

Much of the world feels that it is a basic human right to be able to speak up against a government that is doing something that the people disagree with.

btw, you may be afraid that if you dont attack china, you will be looked down upon by your colleagues and boss or higher-up?

I was told that some people or reporters have been stopped work because of their reports praise of china recently.

and some of media have to make an appology for their wrong reports about china? which they havnt made a clear and care investigation in advance and speak out or on air.

Do you know thiese?

Amnesty International is an organization that watches over civil rights, executions, unfair imprisonments and torture, to name but a few items, in most countries of the world.

You can be pretty sure that they UNDER estimate, rather than over........

China is the leading country in all of these areas......very sadly indeed.

To ignore it as a Briton, I just cannot, not even for you.

If I had been asked, I would NEVER have had the Olympics in China, as all the problems for the journalists and other visitors that we were worried about, came true - sadly.

I also realize that you are unable to read such things as the links will probably not work, so you then find it difficult to believe. That does not mean it is not true.....

Also I am not even thinking about the criminals that attacked and killed some tourists there, criminals are all over the world, that could have happened anywhere......one must be careful where one goes in any country.

oh, neednt sad so much.

I was told such organize on our tv, most of us who can watch tv know it. some of them do the wrost things. they look like off the direction to china.

everyone has different opinion to an event, its normal. just read my last thread, a story about football kicked out by thatfamous Backham(?) you will know it.

an american was killed by a chinese during olympic, its fact. I was read from media. I was also supprised at it. Its realy an occassionl event. you can certainly believe our chinese security measurement. every chinese trust the fact your foreigner's life is more expensive than our ordinary chinese. in fact you can get more good protect than us all in ouir land. its not dig.

every country has their own censorship system. so its not curious in China. we don't know why you pay so attention to china's that system?

I don't care about if the net is blocked. because most of them are useless for our tech. as matter of fact, block is hard done as people can use proxy severs to browse what they hope to see.

what made me surprise is almost of all web sites can be browse recently in china. it was told it owned to IOC. really?

I haven't even found I could browse Chinese wiki when I try to find a material of equation resolution from one net page hyperlink function. until I read the words this is Chinese wiki.

What interest is many people complained our mainland, they hope our official block this web site again, suddenly. because when it was opened there were lots of advertisements from businessmen pasted in the site, so that many useful messages were not appeared normally.

bbc, voa, etc, all can be browsed. many chinese give out their ideas there. but no new news there, in fact, many of them can be read more or less in chinese web sites.

I don't know how others are thinking, but I think browse these sites is only waste time. only politicians are interested in it.

I also wonder what massage you hope to transmit to us? what sites are normal?

different society has different system.

I wish to know if your company don't allow you to know some secrete, dare you to complain your boss? even if you dare to, there will be no use else. you are too naive,

btw, do you use anti spam software? why? I think all is the same.

Until I tasted ice cream, I did not know how good it could be. Please try to visit some other countries. Your passion for knowledge would enjoy the feast. Best wishes.

People spend more time looking at the faults of other countries and ignoring the faults in their own country. People in the United States are really bad about that. So much so that it comes across as being arrogant.

you are right, every country has their own fault.

all needs improvement.

If we spend too much effort defending ourselves, the change rarely happens.

Over the yars i've had the opportunity to work with & study with several China born individuals; they were smart, industrious, & pleasant. Couldnt ask for better.

China is already a great country; not to be percieved as having "special laws" should be of great value in its future.

Thank you for your understand. everyone will do it while he works with chinese.

It not my setting out to defend our faults, someone really mislead readers out there. most of their words are out of time and irrelevancy. we welcome anyone to criticise our faults. no problem. even our chinese ourself also comment on unnormal social problems after work break, in cafe room, on tea table etc.

I dont really know what those think about? and talk about?

another side, this is an engineering chat room. not other topics.

I only know some of algorithm. and interested in sports match

cnpower. You appear to be a very proud man. That is very good in my opinion. I would like to ask what you have learned about the political problems in the African country of Somalia in the past five years.

Also, what have you learned about the political problems Russia is having with the country of Georgia? This has happened only during the time that the Olympics were being held in China. best regards.

proud? where find ? pls show me the words in my threads. I think I just put some facts in the view of ordinary peple.

Speaking to africa history, to my great embarrassment, I know few. I had only read a little of a novals about negro " uncle tom's cabin" which is a famous story wrote by a famel writer. and a story, I forget the book's name, only remember it decribed a plantation in africa. a story about a white man and a black girl who has a lttle boodline, just like ombama.

I know from tv, thats an unstable area. but many people like to have a trip there for their vacation. I hvnt money, so I hvnt been there.

The last thing about the war during the olympic games is frequently occurring on tv program recently. of cause I know, but I dont know why? and now the war is over, even the west reporters have diffrenent opinions and viewpoint. only I know is, was there Stalin's hometown, who is famous in our country.

it s really that noval. I hve that simple book, its pity, it still aleep in my room somewere. I can only read a little. not whole.

Sparkstation,

you really dont know china. this book is very welcome by our chinese, almost every students know this noval. it was this book thta cause a great war in the america history.:south and north war. this book was translated into chinese many many years ago. I can tell you the chinese name is " black slaver call heaven record " haha, its chinenglish.

most of web sites were release and open to chinese during olympic, I said in above thread.

"I really dont wish to see any words of attacking my country. hope you all understand."

It is these words that show us how proud you are of your country.

The two countries that I mentioned were led by rulers that allowed few personal freedoms for the people that lived there. The people of Georgia are also proud of their country, but they did not want to be governed by the people that governed Russia.The people that live in Somalia are proud of who they are also. But they did not like the way their ruler was treating them. The people of Uganda, also in Africa were proud of their heritage but were being abused by their leader, Ediamin.

Those of us that are looking at your country from the outside, believe that your country's leaders are not treating the people there fairly.

Countries are made up of many good people. But if the few leaders are not concerned about their people, the good people suffer because of their leaders' decisions.

Ask the people of Cuba.

yes yes Im proud of my country.

every one like their country.

I know there are many people suffer from hungry in africa, and donation have been corrupted by a few. I dont knokw how to do, its out of my depth.

I think UN can buy a land in africa for plantation. and recruit african as workers, and the crop distribute to african after harvest, this should be independent realm. dont allow any voilent. and defended by un army.

africa has fertile soil for plants

"I reply all of your question, but haven't yet get answer what your west freedom is?"

He has responded to only the questions about African countries. Does anyone think the Georgia questions have been censored?

This should be replied by Andy, but you still grasp tightly at this spot.I have reply sparkstation above that many nets have been released , you seem not to read and pay attention to. However I can repeat again. in spite of I replied you once about the issue. This is not easy to answer, to be true, I'm not politician, nor understanding military affairs. I can orly say, that the government made a great mistake, they shot the first gun at extraordinary time, they underestimated situation and object power, they acted hurry without ehough consider. (just someone acts in this thread) these are also viewpoints from west reporters, journalists, interpreters. from you words, you seem a man come from this country, study or work in USA. thats why you so sad at hearing this news. and you can donate to your people, who si suffering from war, as much as you could. What we can do is to call them sitting back at negotiation desk. situation is complex at present, some people comment on this as cool war again. this may not be right. I think. Have you ever learned a essay: The last lesson, wroted by a French writer, Dude. Alsas, Rollin had been divided into Prussia (now germany) away from France. the little boy hated himself playing all day long and hadn't learned well his mothertougn, as well as villagers. but they could do nothing about it. they only regretted. I pray and bless people live a good life even in war runing and after war reconstruction. [btw, how about these two areas?]

Translation please.

is the Georgia metioned in the above thread one of usa states or one country of fore Russia publics, which located in south gaugasl, beside black sea?

I wish I should not have made a mistake.

"the last lession" is a famous essay wrote by a french writer. describe Pu_France war.

france was beated and had to cut these two regions to german(prussia).

I think Sparkstation will find out the books linking.

When this rule of Age 16 came in force. As I understand

British figure skater Cecilia Colledge took part in the 1932 Olympics at Lake Placid at the astonishingly young age of 11.

When this rule of age 16 came in force?

As I understand British figure skater Cecilia Colledge took part in the 1932 Olympics at Lake Placid at the astonishingly young age of 11.

Next station is London, how do they do with the next olympic games?

Will the Britain goverment like to throw a large number of money at this games and IOC?

I was told that america goverment didnt pay one cent for the OG and IOC. although they are rich.

in london 8 minutes performance, Backhanm kicked out a football, a young chinese grabed it. some people admired he make a pile, but others chinese abused him spineless and lost chinese faces. ah, different people has different idea. That is China. they have the most population in the world. They are not rich, but they dare to spend money.

The Government doesn't need to pay anything.

The majority of the events held in the United States are sponsored by companies who get the opportunity to promote their products.

I was told US goverment refuse tooffer any sponsor to that games under the situation of none counries dare to be a sponsor for the gaames. Olympic games was faced with broken.

However, its not others than american who saved the olympic games and successfully hold it. from this spot, IOG should thank usa very much. and of cause the games rules had been changed as well since then.

that s why so many corrupt official ocurred in that IOC and so many countries competed for it to be a sponsor.

modern olympic games has lost it original spirits. that is why naive people complained again and again, why allow prefessional teams to participate the games?

What we do it is only to see a wonderful performance. and maintain play fair as poossible as we could. becaue we are original people, not president.

olympic games now become symbol of commocial and fortune. not only sports.

"...olympic games now become symbol of commocial and fortune. not only sports...."

How true, and how sad! I for one regret that commercialism has reached the extent it has in the Olympic Games. True, at one time, athletes had to scrimp and save to afford equipment such as running shoes, and sponsorships seem to be a fair trade for providing equipment, but there should have been a line of some sort drawn, not to be crossed.

Remember how Jim Thorpe, one of the best all-around athletes of all time, had to return his gold medals because he had played a season or two of semi-professional baseball? Not even the major leagues! And baseball wasn't an Olympic event, so there could not possibly have been conflict. Now, professional hockey and basketball players are the norm. Yet the women's softball team (not professional) is too good, so the sport is to be dropped. There is something rotten in Denmark!

yes, that why say, both goverment and companies are all smart.

and olympic games has been promoped.

Is this thread able to be voted by someone? I wish its not done by yourself.

puppet? its naturally made us recall it at opening ceremony of this olympic. there was a scene, several men played puppets at the stage. most of us laughed at this stupid director. it would have made people in the world suddenly think that the games is controlled, chinese culture is controlled.as well as chinese histroy.

Did they wish to submit such idea, which had been said by a famous historian, whose name is Hu shi?,--

History is a girl who can be dressed up by everybody arbitrarily.

oh, its out of topic. back a bit.

what our ordinary people concerned is only unfair distribute for same contribution. some department or unit got very higher salary than others, for example, you can found it on our chinese net, if your friends can read chines: a worker don't will to retire, she was only a worker of copy number of electro-meter, but she can got nearly 200 thousands RMB. can you imagine this number? once she retired, she can got only about 10 thousands. thats why cry. haha. if you were she, how do you do?

needless to say those corrupt officials who took huge money to escaped abroad, such as USA and west world. but other lines will get less more. even more lower than you could image, thats one of a little reasons of why your west capital torrent to our market to earn huge benefits. I have to admit that most of large west companies paid fair salary to our people, which is even more higher than our state owned staffs.

thi ssituation is being. that may be your so called suppress. at this very spot, may you not be wrong completely. thats why so many people open back door to become official ( haha, chineglish, only our china has this words)

I wordier what my aim is? I think I'm only a worker, labour worker who has no good skill, but always dream of treasure all day long. maybe some day I suddenly pick up a gold or a diamond. now I can only get nearly one dollar per day. I'm certainly not able to travel abroad. who will be sponsors? answer is abandon, I can only hearing a voice that we certainly not to be your sponsors. very interest.

Chinese style? wonderful, if my old generation leaders who can read this words, they would regret that why not accept or promote the man as a member of the party by forces? its pity, our new generation leaders cannot read English, although government calls leaders would learn english. only a Little of them were trained in usa.

what is, a good school replaces and empty mind with an open one?

it seems you lived in east germany for a long time. have you ever been a party member? I know that wall. we call it Berlin wall, right?

Im not capable to call many people to come here to discuss, bucause there are not too many people in the forum and most of them are not interested in the topic.

Need I mention again, you seem to go far away from the top thread. if there are many interested, we can open anther one thread.

----You still have a lot to learn in this area..

what area? I think there are lots of area need me to learn. countless knowledge need to master. I can only learn them little by little , day by day. I m not a laze-bone.

I was told by west philosopher, knowledge is power.

I reply all of your question, but haven't yet get answer what your west freedom is?

from my side, it seems there are lots of limited as well. not everyone do as he want to do..

I'm not living in a virtual realm. but in a real society.

you seem to easy getting into lost temper, act just like a child.

I couldn't image how staffs work and live under your lead, suppose you would be a manager or CEO in company ? you may order them to do this or that all day long. haha.

I think if a man who want to plot to overthrow a government even in the west, he will be punished and of cause, will be arrested into ...he seems have no such freedom.

In the US, there is no reason to attempt to overthrow the government. If we don't like the political situation, we can run for office, and if enough people agree with our position, they will VOTE us into power.

Its two sides of the same coin, haha,

you speak an amusing words at last.