What Reading List Would Enable the Rebuilding of Civilization?

Well said...

I knew an aircraft mechanic who told me a story of using JB Weld to fill cracks in a busted boat motor cylinder so as to get back to port from the sea.

I knew a pilot who told me he found God, and was made a believer when a mechanic showed him the insides of engines on the Beech 18 he had been flying.

Knew a guy who spent 3 years in Attica who told me, "Civilization is Three meals thick." - he also advised, "Never fight with strangers, you don't know what they've got."

We know that Del the Cat will never starve since he can make a bow and arrow most any day.

Wonder if a CR4 Bookstore is a good idea?

I've not noticed that Globalspec carried books either.

I do think a good reading list is important, and feel as a community of friends we could come up with an important reading list.

I've certainly enjoyed CR4 enough over the past couple of years to look for ways it might be funded.

Sometimes I imagine the Onion model of online and print for science and engineering geeks.

You gottah admit some of the so far Reading Lists for enabling the rebuilding of Civilization are informed, and excellent.

Damn thing about books is that they are so heavy, and take up so much space.

A Kindle Loaded and powered by Solar with all the most important books might make the rebuilding of the great things possible more quickly, though books and scrolls are known to be of lives in the thousands.

I've never had even a great radio last a lifetime.

I am frightened by the fact that knowledge is as delicate as it is.

I think we could be proud of a really good Reading List, whether it made any of us any money, but think as well it would be good if CR4 made money to operate and expand from endorsements of important books.

I still think well of Jason Epstein's book, Book Business, Publishing Past Present and Future. The model of University Book Stores and Airport Magazine Stores that have no inventory, and print to demand by interest or assignment will long be workable.

The future is here, but it really is not here everywhere all the time.

Otherwise my prior paragraph would be false and no more of value over the next 5 to 7 years, which aint that long.

I nominate Chrisg288, Milo, Endigan, and whomever they want to work with to decide and codify the Reading List to Rebuild the Civilization that I hope will be the result, and set in stone, end of this thread.

I dont' know if anyone else has mentioned this, but I came across a magazine called Back Woods Home, and it is filled with self-reliance tips..

also, the classic Reader's Digest Do-It-Yourself encyclopedia was very good at teaching how to build..most anything.

Chris

Backwoods Home Magazine is an excellent source of self reliance and I would also suggest Lindsey Publishing. They are one of the few sources of books by Dave Gingery. Dave could build anything from nothing. Using his books one could build a complete machine shop from scrap. I know I've done it.

Regards Dragon

Good answer. Wish I had thought of it.

Dragon

simply awesome! GA

Emc c has pretty much summed up what had been written (with important additions). A GA of course.

Is there any reason why hardly anyone had paid attention to organisation? Wild competing families? Remnants of the dead civilization in the form of tribes with their chiefs? Lone predatory survivors?

Any optimal library could be meaningless without some specialisation, division of labour and lists of priorities.

An apocalyptic event that kills vital functions of our civilisation?

One of these functions may be semiconductor manufacturing.

But what event is likely to really kill this: worldwide distributed design and manufacturing available now?

Big meteorite: will kill all of us if really big. (Not really likely within the next 1 Myears)

Smaller meteorite. may flood half of Europe and/or North-America if hitting half-way between Acores and Iceland. (More abundant as the big ones but not likely to hit a vital point.)

Pandemic: (killing 30% of total population as the pest in medieval times): may not interfere this much in vital functions. (Very likely within the next 50 or 100 years but very likely vaccination can prevent the worst.)

Yellowstone volcano blowup: likely within the next 100 Kyears, south-Asian communities, Australia and South-Africa will survive. Will these countries be able to maintain an emergency-life until recovery?

So what really would be necessary is a compilation of vital functions: not only as stated above: "semiconductors" but the points where vulnerability is highest.

May be pure silicon manufacturing.?

So all these catastrophic scenarios do not yield any clue or arguing what really may happen and which grade of severity this event will impose on us.

That is why I am thinking something different will happen: slow decline, so slow that not easily to diagnose until too late.

The knowing people that are able to know and transmit the knowledge and if necessary demonstrate (may be not at masters level) seem to be rare today. As the sophisticated solutions grow there are fewer and fewer people able to build these without the help of a group of specialists.

The number of these essential people that transmit civilisation seems to be fading slowly until only so few are remaining that any minor event may trigger the crash.

This fading may be insufficient training at young times or may be the ever growing demand for highly skilled people. These people are producing goods that are intended to be used by everybody: not raising skills at all. But preventing adequate training between age 1 and 20.

So I expect that we (our civilisation) will fade into nonexistence by a simple side effect of this civilisation:

we act against nature, survival of the fittest is no longer existing.

So this will take centuries to work (Roman empire took from first signs of rotten rulers, Nero, to the first resigning to foreign troops (Huns in northern Italy) around 250 years and then additional 120 years to total breakdown.

Any generation will have its problems but only a very few will see the underlying principal problem.

So please post if you think we can correct this or preserve somewhere the (non-existing) knowledge how to build a community that is more natural.

RHABE

cwarner7_11,

you are a very good writer and thinker. (where is your book?)

I agree with what you are saying, and I believe that you are itemizing the list I gave earlier as to the hierarchy of needs. in descending priority.

Air
Water
Food
Clothing
Shelter
Energy
Transportation
Communication
Law
Government
Defense

There is of course so much more to this, but its a start. As to what a person needs at any given moment.. its a lazy susan, where what you need is raised to the top. (as given by the Value Formula - first term)

The other fear I have when it comes to the devolution of civilization is the subsequent rise of global fascism (which I think is the reason 'they' are doing this).. and then, as in Hitler's program, the elimination of intellectuals, and burning of books. The rise of the brown shirts was enabled by the fact that the Nazis were feeding them. I think this is a much more dangerous possiblity than a complete apocolyptic breakdown also. Remember Hitler came to power with more support than W, and on the ticket that he could fix things, and restore Germany to her 'rightful' position and greatness.

Chris

I forgot to link the Value Formula

Chris

nationalist pride... please consider this... German high command felt betrayed by the civilian government leading to Treaty of Versailles, the heavy punitive damages assessed them ( Germany ) after the defeat leading to an economic depression that was worse than the Crash of 29' in the us..

as in your earlier threads..

these conditions lead to massive civil unrest..idealogical prejudice, racial prejudice

the setting up of a " grass roots " swell of pride coming from such dire conditions , such as the most recent us presidential campaign ,.. imho : would only be the natural swing of the penduleum...

and don't forget .. the Brown shirts modeled many of their techniques after Capone' regime ..

" voter's were held hostage, kidnapped and murdered.. "

also committing acts of terrorism, then being the 1st ones to cry " foul "..

more food for thought..

Certainly Hitler doesn't recommend Democracy.

William James did point out earlier that Democracy was "delicate".

William Shirer in his book The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, did cause me to wonder if you could do as much good, as Hitler did bad, by using Hitler's political tactics and strategies.

Carried out, my last declaration of war was on Asteroids, which we know is stupid unless they are painted to look like evil M&Ms.

Now I do want to visit China because from what I know it is the longest running "civilization".

I would like to spend some time in a Chinese Library since the Chinese have no alphabet, and talk and write as they apparently decided to do for a longer time than any of the rest of us.

Certainly a book as a book,is useless if you can't read it.

I am allowing for the fact it may be useful if you are cold, to burn it.

books are valuable, and when I was thinking about value, I considered them as a type of currency..but I eventually came back to Water. I'm sure this will wander off topic but...

Water is, next to a human, probably the most valuable substance... really it should be valued much higher than gold. no life without it for us. no air, no food, no ice, no industrial processes, no steam engines, no grist mills, this list is damn long.

we use it for almost everything, and with its ability to transport and store energy (gravity, wave, flow, or heat), dissolve other materials, be split into hydrogen and oxygen, or combine with other materials, etc (ie concrete)... it should be near the core of our value system.. next to humans value of course.

It is involved in almost all the natural processes.. the hydrological cycle, erosion, (making soil), photosynthesis, not to mention the life giving solution that is the oceans and other bodies of water..

and for all we know, we have all the universe's supply. It could be finite, (not likely) as much as we are. Water is so valuable to us that it is nearly impossible to list all the factors in our existence in which water is involved.

so why not make water a unit of currency? The justification for fiat currency is supposedly that the currency is elastic, and that this allows it to be controlled and therby prevent severe depressions.. it is really a crock. It is used to enslave.. period. Water is plentiful, but is essentially inelastic. What makes it a potentially useful currency is that you can add energy to it, and remove energy from it. That means that the money has a direct link to energy, which has a direct association with standard of living.

The purity of water, as pertains to potability is also a factor that is of use, as it can be tied to human existence, as it is life supporting. (spend a couple of days on the ocean in a rowboat, and see what I mean) Water has natural inherent value that can be increased or decreased by energy and purity.

Water is also a renewable resource.. its cleanable and resusable.. not only that, but with a technology such as the SuperCritical Water Oxidation, you can heat water to supercritical steam, inject it into a chamber holding any organic substance, and then add pure oxygen, and the organic matter will be combusted to an atomic state... thus purifying the organic waste, and making recyclable the matter in it.

No matter what happens in the future, I personally guarantee water will play a central role. Water has really enabled us to get where we are. It will enable or disable our future.

Chris

Exactly why water should be exempted from consideration as a currency or who'd be the greater drug dealer?

and it leaks out of my pocket..

but it is at the core of life on earth, and is inherently valuable, especially to us.

The value I agree it is paramount to our existence

Good "food" (or drink) for thought.

Dragon

I think we are actually still in a Roman rut and change is what we're experiencing.

An I believe you're on the right track Chris

I'd be the last to say it wasn't possible.

Fear and hunger are very powerful tools.

anger is not a bad force in motivation , either...

Guys, we are all extremly resourcefull individuals, given any normal collapse i have no doubt we could survive, the problem is the vast multitude who are basicly sheep, that when hungry turn into wolves. So if you're really talking about surviving a collapse of civilization, doing it on your own is very difficult, you have to form aliances, for communities and build compounds, and then maintain them to hand down to decendants. The medievals knew about survival and providing for offspring. Larry Nivens book "Lucifers hammer" can give you a very good idea of how a civilization deals with colapse and given todays clueless society all the quicker the decent to anarchy and canibalism.

The sheep of today are very likely to run off a cliff and carry us with them, look at the political situation....

If the killer was a disease, with a high mortality rate, (russia made some with a 97% kill rate), then the anarchy would leave us at a level of the bow and arrow (when every thing runs out) and rebuilding would requir generations and centuries, then instead of books your talking about having basic instructions writen in granite on monuments, and kept in a dry rocky place (sand covers water erodes), with a language tutor.

I prefer to go about this a different way, being a reformed survivalist, (there are 13 steps), and understanding that in reality our society will rot at the core until we fall apart, the conclusion I come to is it would be better to not be here when the shit hits the fan. Where do we go? all the useable land is taken. We can start a civilization at sea and mine the wind, farm the sea. We can start one in antartica, under ground and mine the minerals. Ultimatly we could go to space and be free totally at last. Im not saying that any of these would be easy, but north America used to dream big and build the imposible, and we just havnt done that for forty years, since we sent men to the moon. We could build big again, this may be the forum to start it. Lynn aka SPACECANNON

i know of a really good place to launch from...

Do you know of an atoll on the equator?

Hi,

"you have to form alliances": only communities of 30 to 300 persons survived in early hunter-gatherer communities, but linked to their neighbours in alliances.

"The medievals knew about survival": any of the former times had their problems and how to survive in chaotic times.

"understanding that in reality our society will rot at the core until we fall apart": I think this will come sooner or more likely later. And if so, there will be ample of land available: nobody will take the risk to work on the land until foragers come and harvest what you cannot protect. You can start a new civilisation: buy a plot where this is cheap and start a new community. I have seen some trials but none really thriving and blossoming.

Above or below sea-level, Antarctica, space: good for fantasy-writers.

RHABE

"good for fantasy-writers" oh come on, they said that about going to the moon, and we did that in the 60's. Its this attitude that keeps us from doing anything great anymore. Rhabe, maybe europe is doing big engineering projects, but I don't see it in the U.S. and humanity needs to regularly dream the imposible, so we can acheive the improbable. Lynn

If we start now we can create hold-out communities, that are profitable, like the monks in the inthe middle age's

As far as Equatorial places for retreat and revival, a friend of mine says 50 miles off Ecuador the winds are near nothing, so it is a valuable place for eventual Space Elevator drop, construction.

I struggle now with the Babel Tower Problem, that we cannot adequately address to any meaningful solution without something more than a Reading List. Years ago in a book about Filmmaking, I think called Experimental Film, the swirl of electronic signals carrying information, new to humanity, was named the Noosphere.

It is one thing to make a Reading List, and another for that to be available.

In essence though I originally asked what list would enable the Rebuilding of Civilization, Civilization is in a constant state of building as a reality.

In my own life I have had decades where I seemed to have forgotten what I knew, learned something new, and then been setback, by what I apparently forgot.

Our list then is really charged to be "living", and as much for "building" -if not more, than for rebuilding.

Redundancy for critical systems is standard on aircraft.

They even carried sliderules on Apollo 13, for instance.

If we make a great list of really important books, recordings, and videos, to affect what we want, both the building and the rebuilding, we have to put it in the right places.

For a cache of books, and other semi delicate stuff, dry caves seem to be recommended.

What good is this place if you fear to tell everybody where it is?

We probably could build a satellite that would live for a long time and beam to a solar powered book and video receiver for a longtime, if we wanted to.

There are Hightech and Lowtech solutions to problems, and electronic books loaded, and capable of receiving the foundational knowledge that gives us tools to make civilization in the desert, or in the jungle, make sense when confronting loses due to The Babel Tower Effect, not possible to overcome with the written word, in some cases.

So then the thing to do is to make a list, put what is on the list in a number of safe places, put it on and in Kindles, or Power Books, and also have it put in orbit and beaming down to us.

This may be the best way to both build, while offering some hope of quick rebuilding, should the Apocalyptic Riot come to pass.

This kind of thing seems relevant. The main problem of knowledge stores is too much information. We already have a situation where everyone and their dog can upland information. If the 'big one' happens, and a person could access all that stuff, would they have time to sift it all for reliable information? I'm going to be pretty pissed off if I were to eventually discover I'd sown corn at the wrong time of year, just because completeanduttercrap.com, and a million others sites, had stashed useless info.