Digitize Textbooks?

This brings to mind a Biblical saying that I won't quote, but paraphrase, "Be careful what you wish for."

The ability to do the deed is there. It's the conscience that's missing.

I have no answers. But, I know that you, I and others will still support the people who actually did the work.

Cheers!

I think there will always be a place for physical books, and a market for them. The cost involved in publishing and distributing is mainly the physical production and shipping of the books. Authors are paid very little for their work in the physical book scene. Many authors are happy to see their work distributed free on the internet, and others are unhappy to see that they are caught in the publisher trap, not having the rights to freely distribute their own work.

Electronically the cost of producing a book is reduced to a tiny fraction, cw physical books. But we still need hard copies in libraries, including our own private libraries. And a properly bound book is much better than a printout of a pdf, for the books you really want to have. Anyone who can afford the book will want the real thing, not a pdf. Should those who can't afford it, but need the information, be deprived of a copy that costs the publisher nothing?

Many students buy textbooks second hand, then sell them the next semester. There's no profit involved for the publisher, unless someone decides they want to keep the book in their own library. That's the real kicker. If you have access to a wonderful book electronically, you'll want to get your hands on a real copy if you can. In a sense, it's the best - or at least, fairest - promotion ever.

My sympathies do lie with those who can't afford the books. If it costs nothing to make them available, why not share the wealth of knowledge. The student out there who really wants to learn but doesn't have access or money for a hard copy, will have the chance to advance, learn, prosper from free access, hopefully to the point where those books can finally be afforded, bought, treasured.

Job 38:11.

Which was:-

"when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'?"

Bible often misattributed as source of saying. Above is one instance.

If there is a source that most could agree on, most likely it would be Aesop.

Interestingly, the coming new Disney release, with it's "first black princess" is a masterful example of the adage--the kiss hoped to turn the frog into a prince, instead turns the princess into a frog; in this case it's about who does the hoping, not necessarily who does the asking (i.e., the kissing).

You may be correct as to the original source, I only quoted the Bible entry in Job.......are you criticising the translation of whatß?? Your reasons appear totally unclear, so please elaborate further.....

A little research on the web brought this info from here:-

Name. Job, from its chief character, or hero, and means "Persecuted."

Date. Neither the date nor the author can be determined with certainty. I (author) incline to the theory of the Job authorship.

Connection with Other Books. It stands alone, being one of the so called wisdom books of the Bible. It nowhere alludes to the Mosaic law or the history of Israel.

Digital Text books are already being used. I am working on my MBA at Keller Graduate School (division of DeVry). We use digital text books for most courses. Checkout My Scribe at Follett. Cost about $80.

Hi RVZ,

I know it was Microsoft who have started copying the 'Tomes' of the British Library. I cannot comment on other libraries around the World.

As I understand it, and please forgive me for not having time to look yet, these amazing 'one offs of the really special and very old books from before the 15th C when Printing kind of how we know it now started, are so special some can hardly be moved and, when looked at white gloves are issued.

I will be looking but as of now I understand it is the really classic Iconic type books which cannot be seen by anyone unless they are copied. And, again, I think the copied books have no copyright on them that I know of. These copies are viewed at the British Library only. But, as they say, do not 'quote' me on that.

I agree the cost of Text books are often used for one or two terms and can cost several hundred Dollars. I do not think these are the type of books that are to be copied.

I have heard nothing with regard to China copying books against copyright Laws.

Take care.

Textbooks are expensive, but most teachers require students to purchase a particular textbook regardless of price; so students will always look for ways to avoid paying full price; the more expensive the book, the more people will be willing to forsake conscience and steal (let's not mince words, that's what copying is). The more people that steal a textbook the higher the price the publisher will charge so they can recoup the lost sales.

I'm not suggesting that publishers are responsible for making people commit crimes. However, having spent ten years in the printing industry I recognize things the publishers do which make textbooks unnecessarily expensive. Since the student has to get the book or fail the course, the publishers can set the price, rather than letting a free market economy determine the price based on relative value. So textbooks get printed on the finest paper, with multiple colors on every page, top-quality hardcover binding, etc. These things encourage teachers (who typically do not have to buy the textbook with their own money) to adopt a text, and the students have to pay the price. To top it off, the publishers issue a new edition every year or two, and often the only difference between editions is the order of chapters or some other minor change.

A typical 300-page engineering text might cost US$40-50 to print, so charging US$200 is, well, somewhat justifiable. However, publishers have the option of printing books more economically: use cheaper uncoated paper, softcover binding, single color ink (or sparing use of color). Might cost US$5 and sell for about US$25. Think "disposable textbook." Fewer students steal the book, fewer students resell the book, publisher moves more volume. Why doesn't this scenario work? Because teachers are choosing the expensive, pretty texts instead.

As long as teachers continue to require expensive textbooks, students will continue to find ways to minimize their own cash outlay, and illegal/immoral behavior will be alive and well.

A great revolution like what Gutenberg's press did for Europe in the 15th century is already under way. http://www.ondemandbooks.com says that they have pint book on demand called "Espresso Book Machine" which can print bind and deliver a paperback book printed direct from digital files in less time than it take to drink coffee!

This revolution will change the face of entire book industry for better in very near future.

Hi krishnan,

This sound like a good idea............! Especially if you want to have some specific pages only. Or perhaps a photographic album maybe?

A great revolution like what Gutenberg's press did for Europe in the 15th century is already under way. http://www.ondemandbooks.com says that they have pint book on demand called "Espresso Book Machine" which can print bind and deliver a paperback book printed direct from digital files in less time than it take to drink coffee!

Take care.

Yes!

Introduction of digital printing technology offers plenty of variations.

This machine aptly called ATM for books is certain to send the existing book industry technology to history.

http://www.ondemandbooks.com/hardware.htm indicates that on demand book machines " are located at the University of Alberta Bookstore in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada; the Internet Archive Office in San Francisco, California; the Northshire Bookstore in Manchester Center, Vermont; the Bibliotheca Alexandrina at Alexandria, Egypt; the New Orleans' Public Library in New Orleans, Louisiana; The University of Michigan Library in Ann Arbor, Michigan; Angus & Robertson Bookstore in Melbourne, Australia; McMaster University Bookstore in Hamilton, ON, Canada, and Newsstand Books in Canterbury, England. While the Version 1.5 was a limited production model, our commercial model, Version 2.0, is available now and locations include: the University of Waterloo Bookstore, Waterloo, Canada; Blackwell Bookstore, London, England; McGill University Library, Montreal, Canada, and more coming soon.

On Demand Books believes that the Espresso Book Machine will be of high value for educational institutions and libraries, public libraries, bookstores, self-publishing, multi-lingual environments and in many other global point of sale or point of need locations."

Exciting times are ahead for people hunting out of print books.

Actually, the practice of making textbooks available on line has been going on for quite some time- and I suspect the bulk of it is being done by frustrated (or just rebellious) students, especially where copyrights are being violated. There are a number of bit torrent sites where virtually any volume you can think of is available. Some of the sites are pretty good about weeding out copyrighted works, others not. It is unlikely that much of this effort is originating in Third World countries- for one thing, there is no way to make money at this, since the books are uploaded and downloaded with no fee attached. I have seen a site in India that offers engineering publications, but I believe all of these were legitimate copies. I have also seen sites that appear to originate in Europe. Try doing a search on "free text books"...

There are also any number of authors that freely share their work on the Internet- some college professors/textbook authors, among others. Unfortunately, these works are not likely to become the "required" texts for a given course (unless, of course, the professor for the course is the author). Of course, some of these free volumes are worth about what you paid for them, but that is not the issue here.

Now, let us say that I would like, for my personal reference, a copy of one of the older versions Roark's Stress and Strain. I do not particularly care for the latest version- the older ones have more information in a format with which I am familiar. Let us say that the version I am interested in is more than 17 years old. Let us also assume that I am unable to find this particular volume in my local used book store, or on offer on line. Is it unethical for me to download a copy of this volume from one of these sites, assuming I could find what I was looking for? The publisher of the current Roark's would not be pleased, but I, perhaps, am not pleased with what they have done to this classic text. I do not think there would be an ethics issue if no one had a commercial interest in the volume of interest (or its progeny). But, if the owner of the commercial interest is not interested in meeting my requirements, is it unethical for me to search out alternative sources?

About 20 years ago, I had belong to the Mcgraw-Hill Engineering Book club, Quite I bit of the books I recieved was because I was to busy to return them. Create I nice useful library.

I do not think that hard print will ever go out of fachion....at least hoping it would not. The PDF books I do have is difficult or at least un comfortable for me to search for items, plus I spend enough times on a computer. Might be an eyesight thing.

The most useful books in pdf I have is specifications such as USDA-3A spec's, or NFPA in pdf's. End off printing off pages, but the hard copy spec's that would be xerox'ed.

Leaving aside for the moment the moral part, its true that copyright holders only lose customers that WOULD actually pay for their product copy -repeat- copy but they don't because of choosing to get it in the ways you mention. My assumption is this percentage is very small and think companies know it too. Suppose there were rock solid ways to prevent it completely do you really think that they would use them?
I wouldn't.

Remind you the case of some company's DOS that dominated the market in its time BECAUSE it was fully unprotected

There are a few authors out there, apparently, that are of the belief that making their works available on line actually enhance their sales (I forget the names, but there was one popular fiction author that went this way not long ago, and the Times Technology writer has had some discussion of this approach, although he seems to be against it...). The idea is, if the book is really good, people who read it on line will want to add a copy to their permanent library.

Now, if you happen to be writing computer books, most likely your book will be outdated before it is even published (unless you happen to be Kernigan and Ritchie- did I spell that right?). I have a library full of useless computer books...very few that are worth toting about. And my favorite used book store has a LOT of old books (i.e., "DOS for Dummies") that have very, very limited value these days. So, we come back to my original question- if the owner of the copyright no longer has a valid commercial interest in the volume, is it still unethical to acquire a copy without paying for it? (By the way- Kernigan and Ritchie is available from various sources on line, and it is still valid today...)

Never said a word about the ethical part. But still not willing to pay copyright fees to the ancestors of the man that invented the wheel if of course he had copyrighted it

Ethically, if a copyright holder chooses not to allow you to acquire a copy of his work, that's his prerogative and the only ethical choose is to suck it up and do without. A lack of apparent commercial interest doesn't transfer copy rights to someone else. Is it okay to move into someone else's house because they haven't been home for a while?

Many authors and publishers are okay with you obtaining a copy of their out-of-print works if you ask them directly. In some cases, they may ask that you show proof that you have legitimately purchased a copy of the current edition. Let them know that you want a single copy for your own personal use, not for sale or transfer, you won't photocopy it for 200 students, etc., and they will often give you permission to make (download) a copy.

If you are unable to contact the author or publisher, and you have done due diligence, then you have a quandary: you could make a copy, nobody gets hurt, you'll probably never get caught. However, even due diligence does not absolve you of your responsibility to comply with the legal restrictions, so if you do get caught you won't have much of a leg to stand on.

At the core, though, it is their right; that's what "copyright" means and it isn't up to the consumer to decide when a copyright holder should no longer have control of his work. It is unquestionably unethical to take that right away from them for any reason.

Yes it is a bad thing in the long run. But the inflated prices of books are a self destruction of the industry.

I have spent close to to 7 years in college/university. I have obtained maybe 50% of books in the last 3 years in PDF files.. Or I would buy the textbook for 250$ (3 others would buy a book each) and then go photocopy 7-10 copies at the local staples... the first scan takes the longest but after that, the photocopies are auto fed and takes 2-5 minutes to copy a book.

Then get it binded, laminated cover page. And sell it for $100 each (40% the store price).

Lets just say buyign books actually turns into a profit. Especially if doing early before the semester begins so you have the time.

Same trason the CD will never come back.

It is an interesting and challenging question of how to achieve equity, especially for authors, and also all other members in the supply chain. Back in the days of recording LPs onto blank cassettes, I dreamed up an idea of a surcharge on blank tapes, with the proceeds distributed to authors/publishers in proportion to their regular sales. At the time, that would have been a record-keeping (pun not intended, but okay now that I've noticed it) nightmare, but how about now?

With the rise of print-on-demand and file-sharing, traditional hardbound publishing would surely diminish, but in principle traditional publishers could adopt such a model. I deplore piracy and freebie unauthorized copying, and on the other side over-lengthy copyrights and patents. This model could also adapt well to reprinting excerpts at proportionate prices.

The world seems to be drifting this direction, anyway, but clumsily and with little regard for fairness.

If the companies offered (much!) cheaper .pdf (or Word .Doc) versions, I am sure that they would sell more copies, hopefully the difference would result in larger profits and less work for the companies concerned.....

I was thinking of say $10-$20 for a .pdf download after registering for example......with a little bit of automated computer trickery, every copy could be watermarked with the registered buyers own name/identification....photographic copies would be then easily attributed to a particular person.....

.pdfs can be made fairly secure........but its not perfect, but it could still be better than what the book companies have at the moment and they would "pull the rug out" from under people profiteering from selling pirated .pdf copies at $100 a pop!!!

Basically, it would be in some ways similar to what the record companies are doing with some music they sell.....making the copies so cheap that illegal becomes a lot less interesting than it was before....

I was thinking of say $10-$20 for a .pdf download after registering for example....

You are comparing price of a text book with a best selling novel. A good thermals book will never make a best seller, and the publisher still has to make a profit.

What I do like about buying a pdf is that it gives a number of pages of as an example.

I have bought engineering books (McGraw-Hill engineering book club before it closed) if it just gave a hint for information I was seeking...even for just a paragraph of information, I bought it.

Problem is I did not find out until after I the book and was delivered. Barnes and Nobel did not carry it, and it was wait from the library to obtain it from its branches. I like my own reference library

If it did not have what I was looking form, but had other items I had a interests in, I did not return it and bought it. I think that was a marketing ploy from McGraw-Hill.

Basically, it would be in some ways similar to what the record companies are doing with some music they sell.....making the copies so cheap that illegal becomes a lot less interesting than it was before....

And go by volume.

IMHO the only problem I see is that the availability of this can flood a person with information......and......create counterfeit books from a book 'puppy' mill with false information. Now who would do such a thing.

p911

In the case you mention (not a lot of copies will be sold because of the content not appealing to a large number of people), I am sure that selling .pdf copies at even say $50 a pop (in the manner I suggested) would still sell more copies than at $240 a copy that someone (you?) mentioned for particular books.....

Plus the need to print and deliver to Book stores/Amazon etc. is gone.........that must save a huge amount of money alone. A $240 book will probably be sold to a bookstore for around 50% of the face value, maybe even less.....there is a large markup on many such items in general......though individual books may vary dramatically in this area.

As I mentioned earlier, finally the music industry is coming around in this sort of direction....and that is a very sceptical branch of business.....easily as big (if not even bigger) as the publishing business as a whole I feel......

It appears to me, rightly or wrongly, that the publishing business is still working back in the middle of the early 20 Century at best, traditions die hard!!!

Back in the '60s, in college, I would alot $80.00 per term for books, and today you can't buy one book for under $100.00.

Bill

We have been having this discussion in our office so it is interesting to see it here! We're working on a training project, and it's related to work I've done teaching at the College and University level here in Toronto.

There will, for the forseeable future, be a market for hard copy books. But how many of them really have new content? Certainly it is organized, written up and in some cases problem questions are created, but is there any new knowledge in them? For the most part, I suspect they are written based on old books or information, contextualized by experience, field testing etc. I may be wrong on this, but this is my experience in architecture and related building design disciplines (structural engineering, mechanical engineering, construction economics etc).

We are working on a new project to create content based in an editible, mostly open source platform (using Creative COmmons Licensing), with revenues generated by partner members membership fees (Universities, Colleges, Industry Associations etc) . Revenues would be used to fund research and writing by the trainers and professionals contextualizing and organizing content. Those people would also be available to give lectures, teach courses etc (for a fee). This way, the authors and contributors are professionals who are being rewarded for sharing knowledge while remaining in the field.

Our particular focus is on Building Sciences with a strong emphasis on ecological integration. This is coming from a stated need from numerous organizations struggling to develop this information.

Using electronic media, we have a much better chance at creating geographically relevant information (which is absent in architectural textbooks).

So I'm not too concerned about copyright infringement on textbooks - they've just repagkaged what is already there and the authors aren't making the big money - it's the executives who manage distribution and logistics - how is that fair or relevant work in the light of the new opportunities for publishing / disseminating information these days?

I have actually encountered a couple of "Wiki's" where this idea is being pursued. One that comes to mind is a basic electronics text that originated several years ago and has been available on line for some time- available here: http:/www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/.

Pretty good stuff for a non-sparky. Also, recently I have found a Wiki related to CAELinux, an open source multiphysics suite, which is an attempt to write a good user manual from on line contributions. This is still in it's infancy, consisting mostly of an outline, but showing promise. Unfortunately, I do not have a link to this- but, if interested, you should be able to find it by visitng the caelinux website.

There are other examples, with mixed results. The key seems to be to have a "champion" who is willing to dedicate a lot of time and effort to promoting and developing the work. From your description, I would say that you probably have the organizational aspects under control.

I would also suspect that traditional authors may be willing to contribute sections, or give you permission to include appropriately-annotated excerpts from their volumes, with the idea that a citation in the commons would enhance sales of traditional books...

Won't be able to stop the "digitising" process, but i personally prefer the mothball smelling paper between my fingers when referencing.

Yeah... There will always be something about that dusty musky library book smell... we will just have to synthesize it and spray it from the monitor while reading the PDF.

I prefer the undigitised books - hard copy, but the cost now I find is prohibitive. I have a good old collection from college days. There was a time in seventies and eighties, when it was possible to buy them with just a pinch. In India $ was about 7 Rupees or so, and Pound was about 12 INR.

I have a lot of the memorablia from that time from my Engineering books M G Say, Taylor , Cotton , Fitzgerald Kingsley, Kusko and so on. It was just affordable, though a lot of things could be bought for that money.

Now the things have changed, just the other day I bought Design of Machine Elements from CRC Press, a whopping 90 Pounds, that is on my card statement about 8000 INR, and that is the two months income for a lower class family in India (yes family)

The problem as I see is the Royalty and the profits over the 87 Pds may not be high in UK, but when it gets over to India or may be other countries, the purchasing power of the cost is unbelievable.

Tha McGraw Hills started the Indian edition , at affordable price, long back, called Tata McGraw Hills, similarly Prentice Hall had Indian editions, all these were clearly meant "For sale in India, Pakistan,..."

Just for another case- I booked for a book of $15 - quite affordable- but postage and handling of $104 is not.

These are the things which make average buyer- except the highly conscientious just think a bit - whether to Xerox from the library or get it legally .

In fact in my young age I had a portion of my salary for buying books - and that is what has filled my library- now the same purchasing equivalent will not get me even one of those books a month.

Some times I feel the book publishers are themselves forcing the copyright violation, but then it is catch-22 for them (yes i do have it too )