German Technology

They also seemed to have a program that eliminated a significant portion of that brain trust - some were fortunate to "migrate" to US and Russia and greatly advanced both rocket and atomic science programs (e.g. Einstein) - others remained under lock and key to work in Germany - and some were gassed out of existance. To be sure, this represented a portion of the brain trust, but in answer to your question, at least of porion of the intellect was driven away or murdered, never to return. Israel, for such a small country, has a lot of innovation in technology?

Einstein is your worst example. Don't get me started on this. The moron had no idea what he discovered.

The moron here is someone who called Einstein a moron!!!!

Unbelieveable!!!

Please, do start. To which Einstein discovery are you referring? The photoelectric effect? General relativity? Be specific.

or the reason the majority of the US torpedoes were duds. The US hired Einstein to find out.

Some peole get your point though....the list is long, I just threw that into it..

Hello JoltinJoe,

After WWII most not migrated to Russia. The liberators are took them to Russian University and Labs to continue to work on the same or close to same objectives. Hitler and Stalin used others' brains for the same purpose, domination. The American were welcomed them before and after WWII (know the people worked on the Manhattan Project with only one American, Oppenheimer came earlier to US soils) to improve life and things in this continent.

Israel is different and the same. Same than Germany was before WWII. Clemenceau and company punished Germans after WWI. No colonies (except Namibia with no natural resources except sand), without oil and other raw materials. They have to work innovatively to survive and progress. Samething in Isreal. Today, they have to survive and progress with people and religions around with other opinions and objectives.

Everywhere, when you are obligated to succeed, have positive life-goals, you do miraculous things. Again, there is no genes and DNA, its courage, guts, and hard work that make changes in positive direction. Look around the world and you see who does things well and who doesn't.

I am not Jewish, I am not believer in any religion. Again, look around and where the religion dominates misery, famin, and other oppressions appear. I wanted to add my comment on the distribution of knowledge before and after WWII. Respect for any opinion, Gil.

Appreciate your thoughts very much. And note that I had migrate in quotes, to cover Russian "migration". Necessity is mother of invention, worthy maxim. But in the face of necessity (history is rife with necessity) , certain cultures seem to foster invention, others do not - expectation that rational God created orderly universe has been backdrop to much scientific discovery. There is a long list of science acheivement associated with this belief -- perhaps not 100 per cent, but do study and list the great minds that founded fields of science (if Einstein is poor example, perhaps Newton, Michaelson, Galileo, etc.) Other cultures appear to have less discovery and application of science principles.

Where they ahead of their time or was everyone else just that far behind?

True, they had an agenda.

On the darker side is the knowledge that was pick up from human experiments.....then lost.

It was not only the Germans, the Japanese had a super Submarine that the US sunk so none of it would fall into the Russian hands.

And the Hiroshima/Nagasaki, unfortunately it is US who won the war, so there was nobody to expose their dark side.

The losers always are the villains, and that is the historical fact.

(Saddam is still the villain, though now it seems he never made the WMD- and look at the result of that exercise)

Let us not digress into politics when we are on the subject of science/tech.

OP has started a discussion not on politics.

"Let us not digress into politics when we are on the subject of science/tech."

It seems that's exactly what you are doing, with your comments.

thank you

Hi Guest,

Politics and science work together. In every states, government with or without religious involvement promotes or eliminates science. German innovations was the state head opinion and he promoted. The Manhattan Project project was not initiated by scientific people, the US government decided to win the war and this was the way they see the final success. People follow the leader(s) all the time. Individual follows her/his personal opinion. If you disagree or you want to correct me, please do it and I will appreaciate it, Gil.

Of all places, this is were I saw the Jap Super Sub .......

Is the term Jap, P.C. or racist?

p911

Hello Phoenix911,

I aggree on mathematics and humour but don't forget the most important. Relationship bitween man and woman. I hope I will be not burnt as was Giordano Bruno for words someone don't let tell to no one. If the third, my proposal, doesn't exist we are not here to talk about. Wow! What life will be without our contacts on the internet? No mathematics, no humour, and no box with other lettres! So, the next time when you tel to us there are two universal languages, don't forget the third, please! Have a good reorganization of your affirmations, Gil.

I hope I will be not burnt as was Giordano Bruno for words someone don't let tell to no one.

and

So, the next time when you tel to us there are two universal languages, don't forget the third, please!

No one expects the Spanish Roman Inquiston.

Because there is one thing to it. Surprise and swiftness...no 2 things Surprise, Swiftness and blessing of the pope emperor....nnoo, no, no 3 things, yes 3 things ..Surprise, swiftness, blessing and red uniforms......dam 4 things surprise, swiftness.......

p911

ps, I hope you get my point...... in a humorous way.

Fantastic Phoenix911,

One my responses, I told that India could progress but the religious problems can slow down or eventually stop the evolution and progression of this nation. They are smart but people, everyone needs to release the old ties to step in the new era.

Germans did because they were believers in the cause and also they were teached to do so.

Japaneses understood after WWII that the solution is to lissen and do the ways they - DEming, Juran, Cosby and Co - told to do.

Those commitments are hard to obtain from everyone and we have examples where is worked and where isn't. And today, we have poor and rich countries, more poor than rich because unity and volonty to do the right things are not together for everyone.

Thanks for your sweet words, and have an enjoyable day, Gil.

Hi TcmTech,

You are right that very few people exploit the knowledge creators products. Why? First, interest of dominating people. Second, religions not allowing to use what is created by those knowledgeable people (scientists in general). Third, we are, the majourity of human population refusing to accept those new opinions.

I don't see easy solutions. Look around your family. Everyone has different interests, objectives in life. Try to unify ideas and objectives. You are in front of Mt-Everest. Your wife wants something and you don't, you cannot ask her some nightly favours. If you tell your child not to do certain things, she/he will do behind you anyway.

To exploit knowledge at highest level, need a country with strong leaders and lots of challanges to succeed. I am Canadian, and in my country every other government has positive or negative monetary procedures. Once we are in the black and another and the most often time, hiddenly we turn into red. My revenue and taxes stay closely the same during those variations from one to another. How come? One government cares about people and the other cares about only themselves. This is the way operates everything. Leaders direct and the majority follows. Brains work hard when someone encourages brains to work! It's like business. When you have a solution to a problem you are in business. When you don't have solution, close the doors. This is for this morning, Gil.

Ja wohl, Hahn and Strassman in Berlin were the first to split the atom, discovering fission in 1939. But it was the Americans who ran with it, leading up to the Manhattan Project, and the rest... is a cliche.

and Wernher von Braun developed the V2 rocket but became a U.S. citizen after the war and helped develop the Saturn V.

Sue! Bite your tongue!! And go stand in the corner. You left out Lise Meitner.

_{Es tut mir leid.}

I never learned to say that when I was there. When I got off the plane at Frankfurt, an old sargeant told me all I needed to know was, "Ein bier, bitte". I don't know if that was true, but I never seemed to mind not knowing anything else.

You can add "noch ein Bier, bitte" to that!

and Wernher von Braun developed the V2 rocket but became a U.S. citizen after the war and helped develop the Saturn V.

He was the chief designer and manager .......without him, the US would not have made it into space, at least not in the time frame that was achieved through him!!

The down side is that he was also a top Nazi, which the USA kindly forgave him for!! And he was not alone either......many Nazis made it to the USA IF they had information that the USA wanted to use. Read about "Operation Paperclip", second link below, the people concerned actually disobeyed President Truman!! Its not a pretty story......

In Russia it was the same, they simply became Communists!!!!

One needs to go and read a whole bundle of books to get the true story out!!!

Look here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Von_Braun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

The down side is that he was also a top Nazi, which the USA kindly forgave him for!!

von Braun interest was in space, and he was willing to do anything to accomplish this.

As far as forgiving, certain rules had to be set, and since people like von Braun had alot to give, these were overlooked.

I knew and talked to a few scientists from the Third Reich that made this country their own. They became citizens, voted and paid taxes and retired to California, and raised a garden.

p911

Then why did you Guys let hang Saddam Hussein?? Did he not know enough to be useful to keep alive maybe?

I bet there were also other Germans that were "forced" to become "top" Nazis that did not know enough useful infos to be worth keeping them out of jail after the war, also not moving them in a 1st class way into another country!!!!!

If you read the second link that I posted before fully through, you would also understand that people in the USA in 1945 did NOT follow President Truman's directions with regard to Nazis....that is tantamount to treason in most countries that I know of.....all in the name of science, unforgivable to my mind.

Dirty work and awful morals to my mind.....

You also trying to play down/allow a dirty period in world history does not stand you in good stead either to my mind......and thats my 2 cents worth!

think war is clean.

oh, so we did not play by our rules.....hell, these Nazis alot of them worked in our factories and fields to win the dam war. And were paid a good wage on top of it. Some even stay after the war.

As far as Sadam......I guess we found him unemployable.

If you read the second link that I posted before fully through, you would also understand that people in the USA in 1945 did NOT follow President Truman's directions with regard to Nazis....

Some of these nazis were relation, because of the US makeup. And after working with them, they were no different that you or I.

that is tantamount to treason in most countries that I know of.....all in the name of science, unforgivable to my mind.

Democracy sucks, ..... don't it.

p911

Hi Sue,

Yes, the "Manhattan Project" was American with only one American, Oppenheimer. There were more Hungarians than American. It's funny how the word tells you that the Americans invented and used the "first" the atomic bumb. Ok, they, the Americans gathered all competant people "en la matiere" and the think was done. We have to remember, many innovation was not exploited by the originator. 99.99% of human population knows that 3M invented the self-adhesive paper but less than 1% knows the name of the inventor. It was an American. With this few additions, I wish you a happy day, Gil.

99.99% of human population knows that 3M invented the self-adhesive paper but less than 1% knows the name of the inventor.

if by self-adhesive paper you mean post-it notes. how many knew that it was the inventor that also found the application for it when it was first thought of being a failure

Hello Gil,

The Internet is a wonderful resource, because it told me that Richard Gurley Drew was the inventor of masking tape, cellophane tape, and duct tape. Such tape is certainly a boon to mankind, and yes, we take such materials and their inventors for granted. But I can't put the creators of atomic weapons and Scotch tape on the same plane, although they all possess a creative genius that I do not have and that I admire.

A common gripe here on CR4 is that engineers are the invisible, unsung architects of everything that makes our lives possible, from the humble pencil and spork to the internal combustion engine to the fast breeder reactor. We can't remember or laud every inventor and engineer, but threads like this can be the occasional reminder of the fruits of international collaboration in the name of science.

I'll be quiet now.

Hi Sue,

Yes, the unsung authors of many things are among us. However, the world change. I understand that you are in Delaware? I was there in the early 70s and the early of this century. Tell me the changes are in Ocean View. Who is or are the people who, made the changes? Sorry to change the subject but there were German immigrants living and working to develop just the farmlands and have a peaceful life. Someone came there and changed everything. Atomic bumb and its consequences changed many things around the world which is our theme but no one talk about the changes at Ocean View. Let me know your opinion, Gil.

Sorry for the confusion, but Delaware Water Gap is on the Pennsylvania-New Jersey border. It is indeed a gap in the Appalachian Mountain range, formed by the Delaware River which separates the two states. This part of eastern Pennsylvania was historically settled by German farmers (the Pennsylvania Dutch), and many of the towns, landmarks, and long-time residents still bear their names.

No heavy industry or major scientific institutions here to speak of, with the exception of vaccine manufacturer Sanofi-Aventis. _{(Now someone will come out of the woodwork and tell me I forgot to mention something...)}

Hello Sue,

I am talking Ocean View, Delaware. This is a small village that was witout alcohol and every Sunday each house was a church where people get together. I was there many times a year and farmers disposed all veggies and fruits on a table with a glass jar close to the road but far from their houses selling items or small baskets for $ 0.10 to $ 0.25 but rarely for $ 0.50. Money accumulated to $ 10 to $ 20 at the end of the day. At that time the farmer find the money, the totality of the money inthe glass jar. A few years ago was there and talk with one of the farmers when I saw there are no tables outside: How come you don't sell any veggies and fruits today? Oh, today within 5 minutes we have no more veggies, no more fruits, and the table will be disappearing.

This change I talk about. A peaceful and very friendly area turned into an alcohol consuming but modern village. I cannot go there vacationing any more and they lost a good customer.

The world is changed for better just for a few and turned badly for many others.

German ideology and discipline, not necessarily technology made possible what was made during the post WWII. Wish to have the same ideology and discipline for another decades to come and with that we will can create a new and probably a better life. Still positive and hope every wishes will be reality and on that I wish you a fast visit at Ocean View and tell me your conclusions. Friendly, Gil.

[deafening sound of paneling ripping open] NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!! OUR CHIEF WEAPon is surpriz....."

[blushing profusely] "Oh! Hi Sue!! Sorry about that. Wrong skit!"

Uh..you said for someone to 'come out of the woodwork and tell you that you forgot something,' non? Well, here goes:

You forgot something.

Sorry 'bout the wall...

[quickly exits through tear in paneling...] Cardinal Fang??? CAR-DIN-AL FANG!!!

Such tape is certainly a boon to mankind, and yes, we take such materials and their inventors for granted. But I can't put the creators of atomic weapons and Scotch tape on the same plane,

How about Duct Tape, it help bring the Apollo 13 astronauts back to earth.

Ad it fits iin your lunch pail

Seems to me that all the "high end" automation, hydraulics, and pneumatics systems and components are predominantly German... IE Bosch Rexroth.

The "High end" cars are also mostly German...

I believe the Germans had/have some kind of engineering gene to give them super powers when it comes to mechanical things.

Too bad about all the history...

Germans are impressive Engineers and Scientists. I think it has something to do with their schooling system. Their schooling is extensive to say the least.

In Germany engineers are held in high esteem, paid well and encouraged.

What do our smart young people want to do? Law or accounting.

Everyone learns eventually the route to upper management is marketing, not accounting. Even in the engineering industry, in the US you quickly learn that PIC in corporate business model actually doesn't mean they have any technical knowledge at all but rather they are the marketing point of contact for the client. So young people who have the exposure learn it is easier to party, get a marketing degree with far less time and effort involved, and go into sales and/or management, then learn any engineering. They still get to make the final engineering decisions anyways as marketing and management decisions supercede, sometimes even fundamental, engineering design in the US. And before someone comments, we have many laws on the books to make sure these things don't happen when they are of risk to human health, environment, or public welfare, but we do not enforce them because it would adversekly impact the profit margins for the much greater majority who aren't well educated or skilled.

Hello RCE,

You are absolutely right. In North-America, I don't know if it's the same another part of the world, most of people want a degree MBA than other.

When you work in an industry, "Wall Street" dictate economic progress by telling to corporations to grow. Relantless growth is the ultimate goal of "Wall Street" and all our business is following this idea of growth.

And, there is a dilemma between scientists and accounting people. Accounants define the profitability of the company and scientists will put to execution following the numbers. Also, we have to understand that managers and owners like numbers and its producers, Gil.

Hello RCE,

Sorry for my last sentence! I want to said, we have to understand that managers and owners are the same as numbers and its producers. In the modern industry directed by continual and relantless growth promoted by Wall Street conduct us into economical disaster. Why? Because everyone in the industry looking after more sales more profits, which are only appearant effect of the business. Also, we have remember that accounting is the last who collect information and the only information someone can modify to looks good or viewed bad. Most of the glorious 500 best companies will disappear from the economical scene within two or before three years. Many others, no managed by Wall Street or they don't follow their principles survive well and doing good, honest, and profitable business.

Another point, GM's CEO gets millions in salary and more in perks but Toyota's CEO gets half of a million of salary and perks only on performace. GM's CEO without naming, did not performed well but he get paid fully with millions of perks and bonuses. GM's fired many workers without large compensations and the worker and its close people will vote for people to congress and other political positions to maintain the Wall Street process to work.

Investing people, you have to remember that your money is gone but croocked bank CEOs get compensation to screw many of us. Yes, they were compesated to screw millions of believing people in Wall Street honesty.

Wall Street promoted diversification of every big corporations. The results were, are, and will be devastating. Walt Disney a decade ago diversified and became non-profitable. Lucky to return to its origin, entertainment. PepsiCo became diversified and non-profitable in general and in particular at the fountain. And we could separate PepsiCo from Burger King because drinking Coke never go in B-K outlet. Also, Coca-Cola did the same. They diversified to entertainment and other non-sparkling liquid operations but rapidly trow away all other operations than making sweet, gaseous, and coloured water, and the company returned to profitability. When GM open its National car-renting business, they have hard time to sell a car to other, dominating Hertz, Avis, or Alamo. Never compete with your customers! In business, focus exists in the mind of the customer and it drives the business. Example, the big IBM early stubbornness for MS-DOS. Wall Street, PC World, and others promoted to "Product of the Year" status OS/2 Warp. Customers of computers bought Window 95! Intel is focused on one product, its puce, and improve it every year or so. Intel don't make computers or programs, they ONLY produce micro-chips. Andrew Grove sums up well: "I'd rather have all my eggs in one basket and spend my time worrying about whether that's the right basket, than try to put one egg in every basket".

Concentrate and focus is the most important in business and other part of life, Gil.

Hello Rvz717,

The world is not crazy. We recognize, add every individual together, that Japanese dominate the car industry, so they are the best. People don't want to buy garbage. They want the best of the best, OK? Think about and you will be on the same line than me or the remaining part of the world population. German cars are to but Japanese sell the most. Don't jump too high, sty on earth and accept my apology, Gil.

Seems to me that all the "high end" automation, hydraulics, and pneumatics systems and components are predominantly German... IE Bosch Rexroth.

We may be splitting hairs here or a matter of preference....SMC pnuematics (Japan) seem to be pretty good.

Back to the OP when the allied forces looked at the ME-109 they were very impressed by some of the mechanisms, ingenious to say the least.

Good morning Phoenix911,

You are absolutely right about the German creativity and innovation. I am talking about the present car market and that is dominated by the Japs. They make good cars because they learned how to do and incrementally improve them every day. But the high-end is still dominated by the German but is a small part of the total car business. However, the Japaneses try to bite in that niche market too. Look around and we can see more and more Lexus, Infinity, and Accura on the roads. I already told that the Japaneses, mainly the management, understood what to do to be good enough to dominate the business where they are in. And this is true from the first screw to the last coat of PU coating. This is my simple and personal explanation about the German creativity and innovation. This is my opinion and not necessarily the good or convenient for many, however, I stay to support my opinio, Gil.

This thread is really interesting, with Gil and Phoenix stealing the show!.

But I want to tell that we all are missing the pathetic situation we are facing today- of technological stagnation ! (Some gizmos and shape of new cars are not worth mentioning!) from even the Germans about whom the thread started!

There was no real invention or technological feat in the last 48 years, after Amstrong walked on moon!

I had always envied the generation of my grandfather

When he was born there were no automobiles or aero planes in the world, no radio and television, no camera or cinema. no electricity, no telephone!

But before he died at a ripe old age, not only he could see all these, but also he saw spacecrafts and the man on the moon; He saw the Atomic plants and Atom bomb, He saw antibiotic and organ transplant! The first computers were in place. Darwin came up with theory of Evolution and Einstein with Theory of Relativity. It is unbelievable that such mindboggling changes could happen in a single human life span! That was the most action packed century in the 6000 Yrs of human civilization.

He lived when some of the greatest scientists walked on earth like:

Louis Pasteur, Madam Curie, Lord Kelvin, Alexander Fleming Stephen Hawking, Joule, Faraday, Fermi, Graham Bell, Edison (Note there are only few Germans in this list!).

Now look at today's scenario. Can you tell me any, original, major scientific invention in this generation except some extension of the existing theories or some fancy Gizmos? The modern cars, jet planes or mobile phones, computers or even internet are just improved versions of the originals!

Hope this century will some produce some real 'quantum jump' in sceince and technology from Europe ,USA or somewhere else !!

OldyGoldy

Good point.... I for one have been saying this for years.

It seems that the major scientific advances are mainly made when a war starts... The last century we had more than our fair share of warfare.

Maybe what we all need is a common goal to aim for, such as a World wide operation to colonise the moon or Mars etc...

Let's hope that we don't have to wait for another war.

Hello Electroman,

First, the word war gives opportunities to governments to put money to help warfare. People are forced to work for their country and for the final victory. Motivation, money, and other additives help people to think, act, and succeed more rapidly than when unions slow than all productivity. It's simple and clear.

Second, war represent opportunities to get more money or other enriching things than during peaceful times.

Germans have both. They were excluded from the natural resources of the planet and they have not too much at home. So, war was the solution and Hitler understood very well.

Busch the second did the same with Iraq. Ben Laden was in Afganistan but Busch invaded Iraq for its oil. Afganistan has cocain but Busch did not want to sell or use it.

Common goals are dreams, big dreams. Wars are calculated necessities for some and specific purposes. Forget the specifics and stop to dream but accept my salut, Gil.,

I think you underestimate some of the modern advances, e.g. mapping the human genome, PC advancements, the internet, cell phone communications, etc.. along with all these advances came many discoveries such as epigenetics.

Also you should probably realize some of your list of scientist were not actually scientist in the true deifnition, they didn't practice science but rather made engineering discoveries, Edison and Bell are examples. On the other hand Heisenberg, Pauli, Einstien, Planck, etc. would be scientists in the true definitions of the practice.

Good post RCE:

think you underestimate some of the modern advances, e.g. mapping the human genome, PC advancements, the internet, cell phone communications, etc.. along with all these advances came many discoveries such as epigenetics.

I believe the reason things like internet, tele communication, and electronic advances, (not only PC's but faster PC's) are over looked is that it was integrated so quickly into the society, it is not even noticed.

Not to mention of things to come such as LHC. Or what will become of Virgin Galactic

Like always, when as its happening under our eye, it can get overlooked.

p911

I believe that is really at the heart of the issue here. It is not that substantial advances haven't occurred, but that they have become so rapid and ubiquitous that, with the exception of portions of Gen X and younger, the media and general public no longer notices as it is news today and outdated in a month. I addition, with politicians investing so much time and money sponsoring pseudosciences and proclaiming them fact that the lines are blurring for the general public between science and science-fiction, which leads to a certain amount of general public burnout regarding new discoveries.

Hi OldyGoldy,

I don't want steal of any show. However, like you said the world was drastically changed during the first half of the last century. You are right. We with our eyes and our fathers' eyes we discover many things as you mentioned and you can add more. However, all those apparently new inventions were not necessarily so new. The wheel was invented many thousands of years ago, we just hiddenly improved to the state where the next bstep is hard to find but one day it will come to another improvement. We can add to our discussion the airplane, helicopter, rocket, and others. In the right order you need to remember a certain greek 25 century before, Leonardo da Vinci, the Chinese about 1,000 years back. Probably, I just talk as a philosoph and I am not one, everything was already made but the forme, shape, size, colour, and many other aspects changed by incremental improvements or by hidden big jumps of some modification or innovation on the existing object or subject. The Greeks already know that the Earth was not the centre of the Univers and they know that the our Sun was the centre and the motor of our sky repeatedly made appearance every night. Finally, human beings are not stupids or ignorants, just they don't open their mouths because the authority of the time doesn't allow. Today, we do the opposity. We open our mouth more often than we supposed to do so.

CongFuTze (Confucius for others) said 25 century ago: "There are good people and there are bad people, nobody in between". Today, we have poor people and rich people, we have honests (poor) and croocks (most of the rich). Example: US, England, Canada and other developped countries are rich and se African, Asian, South-American countries poor. When an African politician open its mouth, a croock is talking.

There is no stagnation, just an appearant slow down in progress. Certain things are shown too early and come to reality later. Remember the ball-point story. They cannot find a seller because there were no customer at that time. Same story with the personal computer. Gestetner from IBM told: "No one individual is interested to buy a computer for himself. What he can do with it?" Later it became accepted. Also, Fleming went to jail because he invented the Pennicilin. Why? He should not save the world of all infections? Pasteur has troubles too.

Also, when Colombus come to discover America he was not the first, the Vikings came 500 or 600 years before in New-Foundland. Chineses went very far from there country for centuries. We have oranges in North-Africa and the Middle-East because they, Chineses leaved there and local people started to cultivate.

Human life was changing all the time, sometimes slowly, sometimes as fast that we cannot follow it. This is seen with the aborigens in Australia and Canada. They have the difficulties to recognize, to understand, and to use those changes. The same phenomenon happening with religions.

Today, we turn to Microscopic and develop the Nano-Technology or apply it for everything. I am curious to see within 10 years what we get out of it. Waterbourne non polluting resins, special medical discoveries, and I forget...

All scientific jumps made profit to certain people or nations but not to all humen. We get more selective and certain people get again richer than others. Many of us work on those new discoveries, believe me. And this will be probably somewhere else as you said. Wait for another innovations. It was nice to talk to you. And now, we are three on the show, Gil.

Hi, this is in answer to posts 63, 74 & 75

I used 'Stealing the show' as an Idiom, Mr. Gil (your posts were very interesting I meant!)

Just imagine- we still travel in the same cars (with an IC engine, 4 wheels, a steering, some gears). Of course the convenience are increased- and cost too. The same utility of an automobile is available from $2500 (TATA's Nano) to a Lamborghini Gallardo (Not German again!)which may cost $300000. When will have something different like the AD 1900s when human changed from Horse carriage to automobile. When we will have a Car-less City for example where movement are not on road but with atomic powered chairs with magnetic levitation?

Same case with aero plane- from 1930s- of course it is like a ship now, (we still do not have a supersonic transport- Concorde is dead!) but otherwise it is same. When will we have -----??(Leaving to your imagination)

We have not moved beyond Moon in the last 40 years! Remember our old veterans (The original prehistoic Afrikans who reached Australia, Vikings, Protugese and Dutch)

Computers and Internet have progressed and spread, so are the mobile phones. (I am using it from the mainframe Card punching to present I- phones and PDAs. But basically they are all same! You can talk and you can get information. But remember the speed transmission of data is same as when Queen Victoria send the first "tweet" to US president across Atlantic in the first telegraph message in AD 1858 (As I saw in a TED speech recently)

When can you transfer your thought across to your friend (or lover) through space in some brain generated frequencies, without others hearing it or 'phishing' it?

The cities have grown 100 times with worse traffic and pollution. When can we have a city of 1 million without any cars or bus and pollution? (I have a design, if you like!)

I still get thrilled by some stories of scientists of 1800 and 1900 risking their lives for pursuing their scientific interest. (In Europe, of course) But where are they all now?! In these times, no one listen to your ideas unless he is assured of quick money!

Nano Technology and some medical advances are ok. But for whom? Only for the rich? Find something as a cure for the centuries old diseases affecting the masses.

Of course the time will change. It is a cycle. The present boom in science and technology started with reformation and subsequent renaissance. As per me, it has ended in 2000. Next boom will come after another reformation and renaissance in some other part of the world, not in the distance future! Be satisfied with your (our) luxury gizmos to show off till that time!

Hello OldyGoldy,

Thanks for the good words about my note! Also, I agree with you about old discoverers, who were not recognized for and most of the time they were punished to breach the standard life. There were bag guys. Today, if your invention got a positive acceptance, you are an immediate success and you can turn from poor to rich, and the opposite could happen too. Wosniack was not accepted by, I think, Gestetner at IBM but was welcome with Steve Job and Marcula to start Apple, and we know the results.

Also, rich and powerful companies can protect their interest and eliminate all innovation. Example, GM electric car.

We made big cars, big boats, and many other big things. Most of them failed or turned into catastrophs but at that time, it was, each of them, a marvelous and extraordinary new thing.

We have to understand that our lap-top is coming from a long way, from Pascal, Babbach, and I probably forget a few. Today, I have admiration for choips. They became soo small and with incredible performance.

I have confidence in human that we will improve all things and also create new ones, which will amaze all of us. Let you digest the past, the presence, and the future, Gil.

I am not sure if its the schooling or more of a genetic predisposition to be fiercely competitive in what they do.

I am about half German by bloodline and I can say it is not my schooling (given my educational experiences some times I think I should be to dumb to even tie my shoes properly) that makes me fiercely competitive about learning how to design and build things to be better than what I perceive of the quality and capacities of what others build.

That near obsessive drive to be better than others is often what made German design so superior. Unfortunately the down side to having superior stuff is you start to feel you and your views are superior to all others and there for your way is the right and best way. Unfortunately as was shown in WWII and its pre war events that way of thinking can become the down side to its own self in many ways as well.

hi tcmtech,

your opinion is fairly objective.Although you have half German blood but you can rightly face the historical the warII events, which needs remarkable courage to admit .you not only analysted the reason why German Thchnology is advanced,but find the root of question as well.

hope you will have a good life.

Hello FourLoveQqq,

When you drive a modern car an you kill inadvertantly someone by entering into your garage, you are using something, your car to a very bad purpose. German, only certain of them, used certain theories for bad purpose. During life, everyone of us does something good and many things bad. Probaly, TcmTech does something bad but today and he/she cannot tell him/herself that she/he is a bad person. I defend nobody but we cannot accuse everyone of the same bad action. Please, think and tell less. I have probably less than many innocent people were killed with more than 50% of German blood. Again, think and judge less, and you will be a happier person. We talking science and people using science for human progress. Have a nice day, Gil.

Why not? It frequently gets blamed for everyones short comings!

If your fat it genetic.

If your lazy it genetic.

If your less intelligent its genetic.

If your _____ (fill in the blank ) its genetic.

So why not use it to justify a more positive trait from time to time.

Hello Roger

Rutherford worked in England, but I'm pretty sure he was from New Zealand.

Codey

There's no such thing as New Zealand. That's something Australians made up to confuse us "right-side-up" people.

Hello Roger Pink,

Don't forget S(z)emmelweiss. If you don't know him check a dictionary or encyclopedia. Also, don't forget Johannes Buttger who recreated Chinese porcelain for the modern world like we usually saying. So, the Chineses were modern before us? Finally, I aggree with you and the international collaboration made the world is today. Wish you a good day of reflexion, Gil.

The idea that the populace of Germany (or the decendants of the populace of Germany) have a common genetic trait which exprresses itself as a predisposition to excelling at engineering...is predisposed to making me chuckle and doubt the sincerety of a person making such a suggestion.

Germany is not and has not been genetically isolated to any great degree. the genetics of the Populace of Germany on whole is likely incredibly similar to that of Poland or France. Why do Poland and France not produce the 'highend motorcars'. certainly the population within the German border has not developed a genetic trait with significant effect that wouldn't have crossed some boarder...

Or perhaps the suggestion of a German engineering gene, is being proposed not as something found in all Germans, but some select (dare i say, superior) group of Germans... Seems like i remember hearing something along a similar line of logic previously....I wonder if all those with the engineering gene have blue eyes and blonde hair?

The thing is, being 'German' actually isn't even very well distinguished from being 'French' or 'Polish' by a range of genetics. Culture and community are distinguished, far less by genetics, than by other important group traits. Language is far more important.

??

'The world is made of words...when you know the words the world is made of, you make of it what you will'

the human brain doesn't contemplate, narrate, calculate, or speculate in a native base machine language. the brain can only use the languages it has learned: perhaps German, perhaps various math dialects, perhaps a language of aesthetic values.

Different languages have different strengths. Some languages are more effective at certain tasks than others. learning more languages provides more tools to solve problems (highly intellegent people might not necessarily have learned to speak multiple languages because they are so intellegent, but rather are so intellegent because the have learned so many languages)

The differences in German industry and French and Polish Industry are easier to explain through the vast differences in language than the insignificant differences in genetics on whole.

Benbenben

"i can prove it if anyone challenges this simple law of humanity"...

okay, i'll bite.

I challenge the 'simple law of humanity' you have proclaimed.

(....not so much because i doubt this 'law', but rather because i'm not clear on what 'law' you reference...and because i very much enjoy reviewing a good proof)

Benbenben

p.s. wouldn't 'where/when a person is born have significant correlation with the environment intowhich a person is born?

p.p.s. You state rather definitively that 'German Engineering Marvels', are a result of their 'zeal for mechanical and technical things'.....isn't that explanation just restating the question???? After all, aren't people most enthusiastic about the things they are good at....and best at the thing for which they have the most enthusiasm?

Hi, Thanks for the Challenge

(I am sorry I was away and hence the delay!)

Before that, Clarifications to your doubts:-

My statement was that special qualities are not genetic, but related to social environment, variable in space and time. I was telling that this happened in Germany after industrial revolution in last 2-3 centuries only. May be after 2-3 centuries it will change. It changed in ancient and modern civilizations in the last few millenniums as I indicated as happened in Greece, Rome, India, China, Turkey, Spain, Mayan empire etc.

Now my Challenge:

My pet project still in planning is:-

Make a school for the most backward class (The 'Scheduled class"- formerly "untouchables" in India deprived for centuries, now coming up very fast due to political power as a benefit of democracy. Give them the best education and community environment as the higher caste (Class) who have the benefit of generations of educated families exposed to modern ways of learning.

After 10-15 years, compare their performance in the highly competitive fields of science, engineering and IT (computer-based) professions.

I can bet that this group will perform better than those from the present higher caste students.

It is not happening now because, they are still living in the poor backward environment and cannot rise above that for the development of the special traits (like the technical affinity of Germans which is the subject of this 'thread')

Finally , I can foresee USA losing its position as the maximum Noble price winners due to their high standards of education, giving way to other countries since, as it happened in Rome and Greece and all big civilization which went into oblivion, they are also going into the habit of more greed, Enjoyment, and spending. Number of students who go for tough subjects of math and science and computer education in USA are reducing and they are joining more easy subjects of humanities like arts, social science, history etc or economic and finance to manage money without making it!

The pendulum will swing from Germany also soon! May be they start excelling in pure science from mere tinkering with metal and plastic! Or downhill to pleasure and easy life (They work only 35hrs a week now I understand!)

Thank you for the clarification.

I believe we are actually in agreement on our fundamental line of comment related to this subject. That being described by your statement:

>>>'...My statement was that special qualities are not genetic, but related to social environment,...'<<<

I believe this is an important point.

The OP posed the question of why Germany as a country has become known for technology...and by extention why any country becomes 'known' for some trait.

My suggestion is that a shared language is the dominant factor in defining a culture. Language is the dominant shared factor in social environment.

Language is what you propose to expand, enhance and leverage when you decide to provide the best education and community environment to formerly untouchables.

Benbenben

Hi OldyGoldy,

You are absolutely right! You are looking for something different, try to improve things, make life better for you or/and others is the consequence of what kind of conditions you grow up. Definitely! Before WWII, my father has money, send me to his retired friends house-former teacher-to learn to read. I was, after my mather, two years old. During the war, hiding and staying at the same place (bounker), I was turning pages of our encyclopedia's twenty volumes all the time. This habit stayed with me. I became to make better then others without malice. Later, I introduced latex semi-gloss to Canada, 1968 in Montreal, but success was just with two or three contractors. They were alone to understand faster dry, two coats within two hours to get the job done. Make waterbourne epoxies in the 70s but one big job was done and no salesman (owner of the company) promoted. This attitude of doing things differently, improving comes from wartime period. Who can get the same today. My son never accepted the idea of doing differenly, improve existing or creating new. He let do by others. Finally, life circumstances direct individuals in certain ways that a nation can be better than other in a certain time. Don't forget, Germany hosted many other people out of Germany because they gave them opportunities to do their ways. Forget genetics and other DNA related opinions. I come from a Ping-Pong leading country-before and after WWII. I was in China and started to play after 30 years absance from the sport. They told me they are the best by far. Within few months I never or very rarely lost a game. I realized that the circumtance of my origin give my chances and I handled well most of the time. You never forget what you knew before but it can be improved. I asked them: How many Gold Medals you need to win within one Olympiad to match 16 Golds for less than 10 million people in a small nation. There were no answer. I later discover that Mao Ze Tong called the world champion, an old Chinese told me, and gave him the position to teach Chinese ping-pong and he succeeded. Again, circumstance and opportunistic action creates new and different, sometimes extraordinary values. Again, forget genes and DNA and stay on Earth and do thing by yourself, Gil.

Excellent and very insightful reply. Yes, language is a big factor in society development. If I am correct, Turkey had to change its language in order to assimilate modern science in 1900's.

Not quite correct, if I may say so!

The Turkish language was not changed, but they changed from Arabic script to the Roman alphabet. Pushed through by Mustapha Kemal (Atatürk) in about 1930 (from a quick look on Wiki couldn't find exact year). Atatürk also brought in many other reforms and modernisations.

Cheers.........Codey

"I believe the Germans had/have some kind of engineering gene to give them super powers when it comes to mechanical things."

-That is what I said to get this whole genetics thing off the ground, whoops! If anyone actually took me seriously, they must be missing out on some other type of gene.

Cheers!

Genetics.......Do you remember a sports comentator named "Jimmy The Greek", he made a true statement (based on historical fact) but a political incorrect comment, and was fired for it.

Are you threatening to fire me?

No the name does not ring a bell for me.... My memory gene is malfunctioning.

See here.

Did he also say when a black running back broke loose...."Look at that monkey run"

ps too late, I wanted to post OT. sorry.

Even though this is on the lines of WWII German Genetics. They had a word for it, somethig on the lines of breeding for the Master Race but it escapes me at the moment.

Some may see this as offensive.

the word is eugenics, but it's an english word eugenik is the german

thank you

German how good it is you have to see the local trains in Mumbai India

They are supposed to be Stainless steel and it is RUSTED

The worst seats you find in them

They stop anywhere,

Always Rain coat in the trains when raining

There could be a worst example of local trains

Lets not forget the Kettenkrad from WWII, they built over 8,000 of these halftrack "motorcycles". It suffered rollover problems and was difficult to control at it's top speed. A strange replacement for the BMW's with sidecars that they were using.

True, but in hind sight, in many cases, the technology wasn't invented in Germany, but the Germans took developments and ran with them. England had early jet engines, but the government failed to back their development. For nuclear weapons, we may never know if it was an error, or some scientists deliverately falsified data for the neutron absorption, nuclear cross-section and slowing capacity of graphite and heavy water. Thus, the development of nuclear chain reactions and weapon's grade U-235 and Plutonium production were never "discovered" in Germany. Japan was slowly creaping up on developments, but their industrial capacity near the end of the war was in ruins. [More people were killed in the fire-bombings of Tokyo, etc than in either Hiroshina or Nagasaki]. Regardless, the development of nuclear weapons and energy was essentially shelved by the German leaders. von Braun was open to the fact that they took Goddard's rocket data and improved on it, solving many problems. The V-1 and V-2 (A-4) were simplicity in themselves. The propellants tanks were "light" weight and were pressurized by steam generated by trickling hydrogen peroxide over potassium permanganate. The guidance system was essentially the guts from a child's music box, set to operate the burn time (when due over London, etc), guidance etc. A major development was in the graphite fins which were in the rocket exhaust. We worked with V-2s at White Sands P.G. and I graduated from "von Braun's" rocket and missile school at Redstone Arsenal.

I find that this blog is getting offensive and I am therefore leaving it to the rest of you interested parties. I for one have no further interest.

Hello Ronseto again,

I am not German but have some blood from them due to my European origins. Yes, they made a big jump in science during the first 50 years of the last century. They did the same during the last 50 years of the last century but their innovations are diluted by the inventions of the rest of the world. Yes, before WWII they were alone or practically alone to work. After WWII everyone started to work. So, this be alone or be among others give us the impression what you say. This is just an appearance not the reality. However, there is thinking people and you have others. Look the world today. Some people do things and others ask others to do something. Remember, the Japanese learned to be what they are in manufacturing and its organization. They learned in the 50s from Americans who were rejected in their country. This is the reason Toyota replaced GM. Chinese will be the next. India could follow them but they have religious diversity and problems. Could they solve it? Chinese and the rest will copy Japanese and Americans. Who is in economic regression? Who owns money? We just made for decades me-too products in North-America and in Europe. Remenber, small wasn't good for VW, they dreamed to match American 5,000 lbs cars and many models. What is the percentage VW has in North-American imported cars? They fell from over 50 % to some 2% or 3%. When everything goes well you don't work and innovate. You just promote what is working, convenient, and more importantly profitable at the moment. I think Germany rest the same, a leader without really leading but solid economy because German knows that work produces money, necessary for better life. It's question of philosophy, and German phil;osophs already established what to do to be what you want. OOUUFF! This was good and I am now relaxed. Wish you a good day, Gil.

I think you have answered your own question Ron .

If you view some more history programs on T.V. you will see the way technology actually evolves , and it aint like most people think !

Try checking out the many excellent learning channels available and open your mind to things other than who danced the best this week and who got there tits in a twist on the latest " reality " show .

It seems there is some mistaken history here. At "P.O. Box 1142," a prisoner of war interrogation facility at Fort Hunt, it was revealed by one captured German that they were enriching uranium. "In August 1941, Houtermans completed The Question of Starting a Nuclear Chain Reaction, reporting that a reactor using natural uranium as a fuel could produce plutonium, which could then be removed by chemical means and used as an explosive." from Spying on the Bomb by Jeffrey T. Richelson, page 24.

Why did the Americans bomb the Auer plant in Oranienberg during the war? What did they make there? The Americans chose the DuPont company for their atomic project. The Germans chose the largest chemical company at the time, I.G. Farben.

Even after the attempts at denazification, many Germans returned to their former posts. The Russians released many of their captured German scientists in the 1950s.