Preliminary Homework Guideline Suggestions

This is a good approach, and some responders already try to act this way. One can always ask an apparent student what he or she already know about the problem, the definitions of its terms, etc. Or if they are familiar with prerequisite or related topics. Avoid spoon-feeding, but try to guide the thinking process toward an engineering or scientific mentality. If a question is poorly worded or misconceived, ask the questioner for a better version of the question.

I applaud the clamp-down on homework questions. I recently noticed several threads on the instrumentation forum that were clearly homework questions which were "closed". Way to go!

As to the assertion that those posting homework questions do not have access to resources such as "classmate, teaching assistant or teacher", maybe so. But, if they have internet access that enables them to post to this forum, they have access to a vastly superior resource, a multitude of internet sites and search engines, that I never even dreamed of as a student. It's apparent, too, that many of the homework questions are repeat questions, indicating the posting student is too lazy to not even search the forum for answers. Why tolerate such laziness? It only cheapens the forum.

For those questions that might or might not be homework, my approach is yours, I ask for clarification. Those who are in a work situation will typically reply with more data, the lazy homework answer thieves don't even bother to reply.

Both of you, and many others here, already help those who come here and say, simply, " I am a student and I need help.

I've been intolerant of students (and others) for asking us to think for them.

I'll go along with whatever the outcome is. I don't think the present system is broken.

I agree that the present system is not broken, but I do recognize that the present system has no posted guidelines at all. It's the lack of defined guidelines that caused some homework assistance requests to be prematurely closed by the new moderators along with some members to spoon feed answers to students.

While I clearly like the kudos I've gotten so far about how members should respond to a student's homework question, I still think that some homework solving questions should be closed and sometimes removed by a moderator so that members cannot respond.

My goal is for us through our discussion, to provide the moderators a guideline and method (besides just throwing a switch in the database) for stopping a question to be answered.

Our forum covers the full gamut of all engineering disciplines. The moderators cannot be familiar with all of these disciplines sufficiently to prevent a student from academic or physical harm.

For an extreme example, many months back I recognized that a possibly innocent looking homework like question if answered could make the use of an improvised explosive device (IED) more effective. I posted my concerns on the thread and reported the thread to the administration. This thread did disappear unanswered. If my memory is correct the original question was not from a "guest" but a low entry member.

Now I may have over reacted, but my concerns were up front and posted. I'm certain the extreme nature of my concerns prompted my sole report to shutdown this thread. But what should a moderator do that gets a sole "homework" report to a thread question "What does it mean that the matrix has a three twice repeated eigen values?" Should the moderator shut this down as a homework problem. Should the moderator ignore this report because it doesn't sound like an engineering question? (My apologies to the many moderators that do know about eigen values and matrix theory. ) Should the moderator post on the thread that this seems like a homework problem and has been reported as such?

Moderators can only work with us if we tell them how we want others to be moderated.

I'd like to expand on lynlynch's comment. I would suggest that after one or two "HW" hits from members the thread automatically get a carefully worded posting from the server. At times I and other members have been a bit rude with what we fire back to what appears to be a homework question. I felt bad once when the OP responded with a reply that made it obvious it was not a homework question. A carefully worded automatic posting would let the OP know our helpful but "tough love" standing on homework. It would also help to remind us not to be too rude and not to be too nice (it doesn't help them to give them what they ask for).

I'm in the position of having to relearn a lot of things due to years off for medical reasons. I sometimes ask for help, but I'm not answer shopping, just want pointers to where the material that might help me is.

If a student comes here asking for an answer, ignore them if you think they just want an answer. If, however, they want to learn, then the Socratic meathod is the very best way to help. In a good Socratic question, you can hint or point to where the information may be found, and allow learning.

Not sure this fits here, but it's simple and I love simplicity.

Bill

I think this fits in perfectly.

Should you ever need help in electronics (my field I believe I'm qualified to assist) I'll be glad to help.

Being a student, I fully support a section on homework. Being a non-traditional student returning to school after 12 years working I appreciate this forum and when I come up with a problem that I need help with I will ask; but I will always state it as a school related question or not.

I am not a lazy student, because my goal is to learn, not to just put correct answers in a block. I would prefer help discovering my solution but if someone lets the cat out of the bag it is up to the student to make sure they learn anyway.

I have informed some of my fellow engineering students about this site and encouraged them to visit and follow topics that interest them because I have learned much just by participating in developing discussions.

I say Let the Classroom be opened!

Drew

Hi redfred,

I am with you on everything except:

By replying to the student's question with a question and then evaluating the level of understanding the student has we can then help the student to solve the problem themselves. Should this become an accepted practice here, I would expect that eventually some students will learn to pose their questions with the information of how much they already understand.

The ratio of "guests" to "homework question askers" is, I believe, quite high. Unless they register and become a returning member, they cannot "learn" anything. That being said, I believe it is still worth it to focus on teaching rather than just giving answers, as you have so eloquently outlined.

Since you arrived here, I could see that you have the heart of a teacher. Lots of people have told me that I should be a teacher, but somehow I never got there professionally. However, I do enjoy informal instruction on math and science to anyone who wants to learn.

Good Post!

A bit more here - I believe it is vital that teaching continues for those that want to learn. With the US educational system's current state, students need all the help they can get. Those that seek extracurricular understanding are particularly deserving of directed help.

Best answer yet, please sign in or join.

Thanks for the compliment.

I agree that a high percentage of "guests" are and will continue to be single incident homework questioners. _{(That phrase just looks ugly, but I think my convoluted idea comes across.)} But I expect that some of these students will read a few already answered homework threads, notice that the best way to get a quick useful response will be to point out what they already grasp along with their question.

I think it's pretty easy...
1. Don't respond if you don't want to.
2. Never just give a simple numerical answer or a full working through of a 'home work' question.
Answers should point in the general direction, assist or
...show whats wrong with the method already tried...
And there's the rub...some of 'em havn't even tried engaging the brain.
Mind that applies to plenty of non homework Qs too.
Oh I'm such a cruel hard hearted kitty.
Bottom line is it's ok to help, but not ok to just do it for 'em on this forum (do you like the petite jokette there?)
Impending Brevquot overflow alert...must get tea and toast.
Del

I like this idea.

Those who don't wish to deal with student questions can now easily avoid them. I wonder if this could be a conditional flag setting to any question? This way the existing categories would not change and if a question was deemed to be an unidentified homework question the flag could be set by a moderator. The question would still exist for those who wish to appropriately help and can be avoid by those who don't wish to be bothered.

It would certainly depend on the forum's software capability, but this could mimic the Off Topic format we have now.

One danger that lerks is the unintentional consequences. While all those responding to a homework problem may not want to give the student the answer, if we are not careful we may inadvertantly do so as we respond to subsequent posts and discuss the methodology to arrive at a solution.

Maybe we should ship KrisDel^TM 'Explodisplay' exploding monitors and remotely detonate any used by homework question posters?
Del
Kris

I suggested in the precursor thread to this one. That a "Homework" Section should be available, perhaps in the General section. Maybe a Homework section on each of the disciplines?

Further to that would be a caveat that in order to post in the Homework section that the original poster should be registered and logged in to do so.

CR4 is the only forum site that I am aware of that allows a "Guest" to originate or post on threads. I've noticed a fair bit of "trolling" as a result.

Now for the homework question, I feel its important that the thread is "owned" by the originating poster (as such). Registering is not arduous or expensive(costs nothing)

As for how the questions are answered that's up to the respondents..

I agree that homework threads must be originated by a member. I feel that it lends a sense of responsibility that 'guests' don't have.

On the other hand, I feel that our moderators are up to the task of eliminating trolls who visit our forum. I like that guests are welcome here. I have been frequently frustrated when searching the web for information and find a forum that obviously knows the answer but I have to register to ask it. Then I have to worry about getting involved in another forum; is it going to spam my email account, is it going to sell my email address.

I really liked the try it before you sign on the line aspect to CR4.

Drew

I like the "homework question" indication for those posts.

We should help students and knowing that the question comes from a student should help us to answer in a better way. We would not simply give the answer but explain the context a little more to the inexperienced student. More general answers providing depth and practical examples to their study. We can make it interesting!

The needs of a student discovering a field of study are different from those who have been toiling with an idea or equipment. The latter doesn't (usually) need to be placed into context, the student does.

I wish I had a forum like this when I was in college 50+ years ago. There are good teachers and bad teachers. Not to say they are bad, but they have shortcomings in their ability to communicate effectively. I had a calculus teacher and he could have been talking in Swahili or some other language. I went through a semester and learned squat about calculus. I found a friend 3 days before finals who gave me a crash course. I ended up with a B+.

So very true. I had the same difficulty. Retired Army Colonel who couldn't relate to teenagers.

The talent pool here is amazing. And willing to help.

I think we all had good and bad teachers.

We had a very poor instructor in college, that every review the students did, he would be called to respond, he never showed up, because there was really nothing that could be done, BUT, he taught myself to look at things at a very different angle. I saw I learned a very valuable lesson from him, and that is its up to oneself to get and verify the answer, he taught me that in school, which gave me a very great advantage, after I graduated.

I never really complained, except when he was teaching fundamentals, and as he was copying out of his notebook, (which was several years old) and writing (actually transcribing) onto the board, about 5 minutes before the class ended, it was not working out. And then he would declare, oh, I screwed up.

Guress he was teaching then too, on not to do it. I had very little confidence in him.

p911

And now, my admonishment.

We frequently have animated discussions with differing opinions as to the "correct" answer to a question.

Some might even characterize these discussions as bickering. Even petty bickering.

This would inhibit the learning experience.

"This would inhibit the learning experience."

This depends IMHO on the context - by which I mean on both the level (for want of a better word) of the student, and the question asked.

If a beginner in a classical mechanics course asks for help with a problem about a lever, or a cylinder rolling down a slope (and I trust no-one would start chiming in with "what about the rolling friction?" or whatever), I'd hope that they got pointed in the right direction, and (unless a respondent made a silly mistake) there would be little argument.

If, however, a student on a more advanced course asked about something that led to contention in coming to the answer^[1], I think the student could benefit from following the ensuing discussion/shouting match.

[1] I'm holding back from offering an example, because A) I'm a thick git, and 3) I don't want to start a slanging session lot of bickering over a hypothetical unasked question .

JohnDG,

Isn't the static friction why the cylinder rolls instead of slides. Oops, I wasn't supposed to bicker, sorry.

OK! Fine. You two are both instigators and I'm telling.

Now look what you've done! Is there such a thing as "rolling friction" ?

Told you I was a thick git.

_{^{bicker bicker bicker bicker bicker - you haven't been talking to my ex, have you?}}

Well, that depends on the compressibility of the slope in question, or that of the cylinder. If it was compressible like an almost flat tire it might just slide as much as it rolls bringing in even more forces on the system.

Guest

_{(antagonizing guest post simulated by: Drew)}

I disagree.

It is in the disagreements that we get to test the knowledge, ideas, facts, and bases for the claims.

Male lions are too big to catch antelope. Female lions catch antelope. Femalle lions are to light to tear apart an antelope carcass so no meat gets wasted and the cubs can eat.

Thats what the males are for- they fight over the carcass, making all parts of the kill available to the entire pride. By fighting.

Science is made in these gaps.

Newton V Goethe: Corpuscular vs wave theory of light.

Goethe was more correct, but newton got more albums sold (Dark side of the moon) with his defective analysis.

As to the Socratic method, asking questions back is fine, if one has the time to commit to a "tennis match."

Otherwise, give some key facts /assumptions (they seldom tell you all you need to answer as in this post : http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/53834/What-is-the-885-F-Embrittlement) because I'm only going to see it once.

Had I failed to give clarity means someone else who doesn't know about the stainless brittleness will submit a blue brittleness answer and then I'd feel obligated to correct.

My approach is I try to prevent malpractice, mostly, in my field.

And contribute where else if I can.

milo

OK. That's fine. That's why we're here. You and I can have heated discussions that are just that. Discussions. A lot of that has to do with mutual respect. I'm not suggesting that we inhibit any genuine interchanges, just suggesting the we keep it on a professional level, as much as possible, given the cats, squirrels, aliens and grimlins that lurk about here.

I'm more concerned about the discussions that turn into personal slander matches. We've all wirnessed them.

Anyway, as usual, your point is well presented and well taken.

Cheers.

I don't recall any heated discussions.

I think that we both have always remembered that the object of the act is to provide assistance. Isn't it?

To help others. Not, as was said, "to spoon feed." But to offer help when one see's that one can, and that it is appropriate.

Frankly, I get abit tired of some of the snotty attitudes from (usually) guests.[p} And I resent the Arrogant expectation that an answer is demanded when insufficient facts are provided.

I agree that respect is the real issue. And when posters fail to even attempt to use uper lower case, standard sentence structure, and provide what, why, where, how info its tough to spot them any respect, but my posts "crap would be" in most other languages .

Have you seen the gremlin lately?

milo"I ask for clemency for typos due to presbyopia"

You and I have never vehemently disagreed on any subject. My point is that we could, and still be civil.

"Have you seen the gremlin lately?" Nor heard from. Some seem to ebb and flow.

I hope he is still with us.

Cheers.

Do you think the post you linked was homework - or are you talking more generally?

I couldn't tell.

Suspect so, based on request for 'please reply in detail' but the lack of any set up made it seem less student and more "in deep water" practitioner/practitioner to be.

milo

I was more inclined to think the latter - but I guess that's one of the things the discussions in this thread may resolve - i.e. identifying homework.

As far as I can see, any solution will still depend on the questioner being straight about it, and not (if they're devious enough) trying to pose as someone in the latter category in the hope of getting a full answer gratis.

I disagree with what you say. It is IMPORTANT to give the RIGHT support and not all of us are aware of the fact that they give wrong answers which could bring the student even in a bad situation. It happened several times so that the critical consideration of an answer MUST be continued. If we take the responsibility to help we must be sure of the answer pertinence and quality.

Sorry.

Disregard everything I said. I did not convey the thought properly.

Pretend I was never here and go on with the discussion.

Up until "The Change" [moderation]

homework question flew below the radar, no matter what he rules were

& were handled by the community, mostly in a way that leads to answers, not providing answers.

I treat post & replies by guests with the respect they have earned

Apothicus,

Thank You for responding to this thread because I had you specifically in mind when I started this thread but could not remember your handle.

I would put your questions and your work as perpetually on that line that wanders back and forth into and out of the realm of "homework." One of my goals in starting this thread is to make it clear that regardless of which side of that line your immediate question lies upon that it should be answered by somebody at CR4 and not just abruptly closed for discussion as a homework problem.

You also provided me also exactly a suitable question that demonstrates an already knowledgeable student that needs just a little bit of clarifying information to complete their task. Exactly the scenario I proposed earlier that should not require the give and take of a Socratic dialog.

A pyrometer is one of the variety of instruments used for measuring temperature. The difference between a pyrometer and a thermometer though is that the thermometer must be in contact with the object to measure its temperature, a pyrometer does not. A thermometer to accurately measure a temperature must have the thermally sensitive part come to a thermal equilibrium with the item that it is measuring for the thermometer actually displays the temperature this part of the thermometer is at. A pyrometer measures temperature indirectly by measuring the level of infrared energy being emitted on a surface. This does directly correlate to the temperature of the object and gets converted to the scale range that is useful for the user.

Hi Apothicus,

I recall some snarky remarks I made early on to you when I couldn't figure your intentions. But, once you explained what you were up I was OK with it.

Now, I do not hesitate to help you, or Wingman1985, with your questions. He's a Chinese translator. One of the reasons is that you don't come with uninteresting problems.

I don't consider what you are doing as homework, rather colleagues looking for a little help with a problem.

Cheers.

Thanks Lynlynch, I too remmeber that exchange, and fondly too.

What I learned from that is it is a good idea to explain in my original post why I need what ever info I am searching for. That usually saves a post or two before people take my question seriously. That maybe good advice for anyone who has a question where it is not immediately clear why they are asking.

Nice to hear from you again

I certainly responded to at least one of your questions - and (as far as I can remember) I didn't consider them to be "homework" types (and I hope I didn't dis you along the way - (A) it's sometimes difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, (B) my memory's not what it used to be and (C) I'm a Grumpy Old Man).

I think you couched the questions very well; having said that, had they been posted by "Guest", my response may have been different.

IMO, this points to the need for some determinant for distinguishing "HW" from "Help!". The fact that you were a registered member (and had a few posts in your basket) certainly swayed me - the last of which doesn't help first-time posters.

_{^{Burble burble burble ...}}

Quite often one feels intuitively who is who. Sometimes indicating an approach and leaving it to the student to fill it out seems to work. If they are unable to solve they usually come back.

I do agree that replying with a probing question is good strategy.

I just wanted to take a minute to thank each and every one of you that posted and gave suggestions that could further improve the way that moderators handle homework. Suggestions such as a homework blog, rating threads as 'homework', and having such threads only submitted by a member are all quality responses. Right now, moderators do not know what kind of website support they are going to get, so whether these changes will be made soon or not really does not depend on the moderators.

To comply with some previous suggestions on how to deal with homework, moderators have been leaving the threads open to discussion but not promoting them on the daily digest. Thank you again for your suggestions.

As redfred stated in one of his prior posts, moderators don't know exactly how to approach homework questions unless members of CR4 give opinions on what they want.