Oil Spill

I think BP knew immediately after the blow up how much oil was leaking. I think the fox was guarding the hen house.

We can't tolerate this massive leak, even though you seem to think it's a waste of time to try to plug it.

I have no solutions to offer, but we have to keep trying. Maybe a big, upside down funnel?

we've heard about an idea to put a "dome" over the leak(s) but :

1. how much wreckage is in the way at the bottom, over the leak or leaks
2. how much hp would be required to make and maintain a suction from 5,000 feet

the answers are:

1: Some, but that can be worked around.

2: Surprisingly little, because the oil, being more buoyant than the surrounding water will float to the top, the suction head required will at most be about 18-20 ft. and ESP's can be installed in the line to boost the flow so that the suction head can be even lower. All of the major oil supply companies make very large ESP's that could be used for the purpose.

Amen to that.

My family is deeply entrenched in the oilfield as well.

We all took the paychecks, lease money, the gasoline, deisel, the natural gas, ....the state's took the royalties and severence taxes.........

Our northern neighbors didn't say, "no thank you, I'll just freeeeze this winter".

Most ( or least most) are NOT prepared to do with out plastics and other petroleum baased products.

Unless the USA is ready to go back to horse and buggy days as well as abandon AC, jet plane travel,grocery store conveniences, etc . the oil industry is a necessary thing. We have all made a deal with the Devil. Only, its the GOM states that will have Hell to pay for it.

My fear, Ol' Texacan buddy is that when the wind slacks off and that Gulf Stream picks up its westard drift again, ALL of Louisiana and Texas clear on down to Corpus will have this stuff.

We may be looking at the end of seafood industry as we know ....as well as multiple species being put on the endangered list with USFWS and USDA.

You know its bad when Boots and Coots can't figure a solution .

So where is Bruce Willis and Ben Afleck now ??????

My thoughts with the families of the lost - and the ? hundreds of thousands who are to become lost (fishing & tourism - all jobs gone).

Occurs to me that (even if BP survives the expense of the clean-up) not many people are going to be investing much in off-shore oil in the near future.

Makes the search for new energy sources (or rather, better ways of exploiting the known ones) even more pressing.

John,

Leave it up to a fur-in-ner to bring home a point.

Those 11 guys were probably disintergrated by that initial blast. If they did hit the water they may not have survived the super heated air blast from the flame.

I am one whose business and way of life may take a really bad turn. My wife and kids are just now realizing what might happen to our income.

But you make an excellent point. Those 11 families are suffering still. Lawsuits and insurance money will pay bills, but family members can not be replaced and money does not bring the love and warmth of a father , son or husband.

sa va,

Netmaker

If I had something I believed in enough, I'd pray to it.

As it is I'll give a prayer to whoever (whomsoever?^[1]) may be listening for their folks and for you and your folks.

Hope it works out OK somehow.

fur-in-er John

[1] ER made me say that. "In" joke. Ignore it. But if you possibly can, try to find a funny side. _{^{(Jeez that sounds trite)}}.

John.....this is South Loozy-ana...we can make a joke or find something funny while we're sitting in an oak tree watching a CAT 4 take the house away like the Wizzard of Oz.........

Thank you for the ER.

Everybody here is going to be ok, because me and the BP ( Big Person) are usually on good terms.

Some super smart engineer type is right now laying plans for a fantastic Hollwood type heroic entrance. In his hands will be some blue prints for a Gulf Gizmo Guzzler that will fix this whole mess, long before it impacts me and my podna's.

I know it...I believe it.....it will happen soon.

sa va bien mon amis

By the seat of our britches, in the tree or under the tree, and not in a cube with non windows, youns or somebody else will redd up this mess.

netmaker

Some super smart engineer type is right now laying plans for a fantastic Hollwood type heroic entrance.

I hope you guy's are OK. I am truly troubled about all this. There is nothing I can do from here but to wish that all will be good, as soon as possible.

In another thread I said this (see below) and have received no flak and have not been ridiculed (yet), nor has my approach been disproved. I wish some one would put me in my place and I could stop chewing on it. Here goes:

How ever hard I try to understand the hard ware involve, I always come to the same conclusion.

Blast the thing to smithereens.

I mean Just take it all out. Create a shock wave and aim it down. "Tabula rasa", clean table, slate!!

There are dangers involved, but can it get any worse? Maybe the shock wave would travel to the next well and take that one out, for example. You see I don't even know were this next well is. I have no idea how shock waves travel in oil either. I am not an explosives expert.

I can't remember his name now but it was something with Red, just can't think of it at the moment, (Adair) the guy that blew out oil fires (yes I know, that was above ground). He and his son were hired and he just blew them out. Maybe not just but with a lot of experience. Why not put that to the experts in the field. If they say they could do, do it. What, not enough explosives? You have to be joking.

So, what are the dangers of blowing it all to whatsthename.

It would cave in, wouldn't it?

It would not create a tsunami would it?

It would not trigger an earthquake, would it?

It would kill and maim less wild life.

It would be as fast as one could say "lets clean up and get on with it", wouldn't it.

It would save the cradle of fisheries along thousands of miles of cost line.

If they have bunker busters, they should have something in their arsenal that could do the job. Just keep them coming, one after the other. Again, no, I am not an explosives expert, but have guided the things on computer games.

I mean really, has there ever been an earth quake which resulted in the earth opening up and spilling all the oil there is? Why does that not happen? You see I am not a geological expert either.

Were is that bloody panic button, Ky.

Well that was a few hours back and I am none the wiser. I thought CR4 would shoot crazy people down in no time at all!

Get a computer simulation up and running, put in the variables/data. They should know were they drilled and what the geology is like on site. That would take less time than what is on the table now.

OK, this will not make a Hollywood movie but it would get some hits on U tube. A $ a hit, all for a good course. Yeah, wattle I dream of next, just remove that bleeding ulcer, big time. Ky.

.

Ky, I'm sorry but what you propose has absolutely no chance of solving anything.

You've got a hole with a fluid coming out under a lot of pressure, making the hole bigger and destroying every bit of kit that has any hope at all of controlling the flow has absolutely no chance at solving the problem.

a shock wave can crush the stone formations. It may not stop the flow, but it should slow it down, depending on the strength of the shockwave.

I suspect it would depend more on the strength and porosity of the seabottom rocks. A shock wave might just create a giant pile of loose rubble, with oil percolating out everywhere. Three thumbs down on that concept...I think, but it's a bit of a guess.

I don't quite get the rectangular "dome" shape, but maybe it is meant to cover the whole BOP structure, rather than try to fit snugly over a possibly inaccessible pipe. If they can jam this enclosure into the seabed and funnel an outlet into a normal pipe, the whole idea would make sense. (Retroactive GA to post 1.)

I think when they jam it, it won't work. The oil pressure will simply lift it up. However once lifted, the water column will make it work. You need the differential pressure to not bring the spill down below. IMO.

Actually it HAS worked in the past at shallower depths, and the rectangular shape I suspect was chosen out of expediency more than anything.

It works because it is anchored to large concrete clump weights (as shown above) to hold it down. the suction head required is not going to be as much as you'd think simply because of the SG differential. they're not worried about sucking up water too. they'll separate it out at the surface.

You have no idea of the scale I am thinking of. I am talking huge amounts of explosives here, not just some bit and kit removal.

I wonder what he would have thought about it.

I agree Rorschach, it is a bit over the top but any little bit might help. Time is not on our side and all the stuff on the table is, well, just not going to be happening and with dubious results, if implemented. Just look at the beach protection tubes gathering in the surf. Desperate times need desperate measures.

Just say'n, Ky.

A little out of the scope of the well fire fighters, and I am sure if Red's son or Boots and Coots had any idea they would be right there. As daunting as land well fire is, this is much worse. Remember, it took months to put out all of the Kuwaiti fires.

The thoughts being kicked around and the attempts are what make me love the Petro Industry and the hands who man it. Sketches on napkins, no fancy computer or mathematical formulas, not cushy office but a on site office trailer, these hands are the last remnants of what made the US an industrial giant. Dirty and gritty blue, pink, and white collar workers.

35 years in this biz from the ditch to what I do now and I learn everyday from the pipeyards, mills, rig hands and all and it makes me proud to call myself part of this great industry. Considering how much activity is involved and the risk, name another industry who can compare in quality and safety. More and more of what we do is on the dark side of the moon, but we git it done. I have seen an idea tossed out, as you also have,and the fab damn near completed before the working drawings are done.

I got the theory, but quiet observation and talking to roustabouts and the like made me think out of the box and come up with solutions that are not in the books. Speaking of books, I could write one on the things I have seen and worked on that are theoretically impossible.

I agree with Rorschach. Even a large scale blast will likely have an extremely low chance of accomplishing a sealed well. If you disturb the formation too much you may create hydraulic pathways for the oil to move to the ocean floor away from the well head. Under that circumstance you would end up with multiple leaks. Also in the process you destroy the well further and possible destroy all options for sealing the well. Not a good idea at all. I am also assuming that BP is not thinking well recovery but is thinking well abandonment.

I have posted in a prior blog on the same subject. In that blog I tried to explain the importance of the annular space and maintaining its viability. If the annular space (the space between the bedrock open drilling formation and the casing) is breached then I do believe that the well needs to be abandoned. That may mean removing a string of tools and pumping equipment and getting a suitable grout mixture injected into the well to just above the oil producing formation and all the way to the top defined as the ocean floor. If BP et al are still thinking of well recovery this may not be the line of action currently being pursued. Placing the funnel contraption over the well head should be considered a temp fix. Eventually they must seal the well. No Blast.

My experience in well drilling is from the water well industry not oil wells. Some of the same issues just a difference of scale.

Thanks Kev

I understand how repulsive the ideas of an amateur can be. I have no experience in any of the technologies involved. I just really care and even if I lose face or, as it was mentioned, lose reputation, I don't care. Just because I could embarrass myself has never stopped me voicing an opinion.

A bit further above Rorschach mentioned that they are now drilling. If I understand correctly this is not only vertical but includes a stretch of (was it 300 feet) of horizontal line. I mean really, if they can do that, then drilling straight down for maybe two hundred feet, into the bed rock, should be a routine operation. Drill about 30 feet from the bore hole and then place the chargers. Now this is what I think will happen, with out any further leakage which could have happened after the single explosion. Contrary to my prior sketch, I have included a fourth charge.

1. The first explosion (down 200 feet) will be aimed at the encased bore hole and flatten it. At the same time loosening the bedrock above.

2. The second explosion (at 150 feet, 2.3 seconds later) will be more powerful (loosened bedrock) and hit the bore hole even harder by forcing it against the opposite side of the bed rock. (not so lose)

3. The third explosion (100feet, 1.2 seconds later) will just do the same as the others but seal the now created spaces bellow with bed rock powder or at least very fragmented bits of what ever.

4. The final explosion would be at the surface and give the whole thing a lid, 100 feet high and compacted by 5000 feet of water. Nailed and delivered.

With all the equipment in place this should not take too long and as far as I can see (You know, I can imagine things), It would work. I would be a poor defender if I just gave up because the opposition is just too strong or their quarterback has this cunning ability to be in the right place at the right time, all the time. Head down it is for me, what have I got to lose?

I have not heard an argument that explains why there are not catastrophic oil spills after earthquakes (bleeding through the broken crust). Has that to do with the water getting into the fissures faster and filling that space assisted by head/water pressure?

I think that some have just flown over my comments and have not taken them as they are meant: A work in progress, with the aim of shutting that bastard of a hemorrhage down as fast as possible and maybe have a way to do it like that in the future. Have a drill hole for the charges as part of every rig.

Yep, now I have gone completely over board and have made up my mind to make a drawing of what I am thinking of. A picture tells a thousand words. Maybe someone understands how I think this would work. So far I am not convinced it will not.

That drawing will not take long, I hope. I have a few bread and butter things on my desk but this is important enough for me to let things go for an hour and catch up later. I'll put a bit more flesh on my approach.

If it does not work, I'll be the one red faced, at least I tried, like so many others, just in a different way, Ky.

the problem ky is that if your attempt does not work (and it won't. trust me on this my friend, you are making yourself look like a fool and I know you are not one.) then you have no way at all of controlling the well and you will have wasted the 90 days it'll take to drill the borehole. you might as well have set off a freaking nuke in the well for all the good it would do you. this is neither the time nor the place to be trying hairbrained schemes with zero track record and iffy justifications.

the safest bet is to do exactly what Wild Well proposes, start drilling a conventional relief well while you work other possibilities in parallel to keep the time frame as short as possible with the best chance of success.

Thanks Rorschach, good to hear we are still friends. Maybe after this you will want a divorce.

Here is what I thought how it could be done. Sorry for being so persistent.

There is no scale to this nor is there a mention of pipe or concrete thickness. Choosing the correct charge will over come all that, he said and went back to his bread and butter job.

Just say'n and not wanting to interfere with the big boys and their hammers. At least it is off my chest and that helps me cope better with this incredible disaster.

Hope all goes well, no pun intended, Ky.

Is it now time to send the explosives experts in?

By now I would!

Lieber ein Ende mit Schrecken als ein Schrecken ohne Ende.

Translation:

Rather an end with shock then a shock with no end.

How much worse can it get?

Yep, the stubborn bastard from down under, Ky.

did you know.... 50 years ago, there was a very serious plan to use underground nukes to create reservoirs under Alberta's oil sands (1/5th of Alberta approx the size of florida)

I'm reading this book called "Stupid To The Last Drop" and the story is told there.

I actually don't think the nuke would do as much damage as letting the oil squirt for 90 days while they drill a new well. At least the damage will be finite, unlike oil hitting beaches and wiping out the food chain all over the gulf. A nuke would be localized.

Chris

Hi Chris

Maybe a nuke would be overkill. I have witnessed controlled explosions and admire the professionals who are skilled in the art. Like it was said before (forget who), charges can be set to do anything one wants them to do. If they would have started drilling that bore a while back, they could have pressed that button by now.

So, what if there is still a small leak? It has been explained here that nature, all over the planet, deals with that in its own elegant way. Gosh, somebody hold me back, why are they not investigating this and putting the explosives experts in charge. I mean, how bad will it get once the storm season sets in.

Blast the thing to the gates of hell and then close it once and for all. Think huge! Stop farting around! Do something somebody, were is that bloody panic button?

Chris, maybe we should create a computer simulation. It would be ready by the time the movie comes out in 2013. Russel could do the stuff he does best and I'll stay here and be the smart a*s, just for your own safety. You must know, me and explosives don't mix. Explosions need patience and I have problems even spelling that.

Hope all goes well! Again, no pun intended Ky

GA just for the sober common sense needed. You blast to make reservoirs or improve the transmission of water or oil. But to destroy the well and find out it still leaks...HELL NO WAY I agree.

Just read the details of my proposal and understand them, then comment and not just take the easy way out. I like your approach/solution though.

Any thing on offer?

With all due respect, Ky.

My familiarity with drilling is for water. I have an interesting story of a driller who drilled too deep into a saline aquifer. It was gushing over the well at a high rate and also flowing into an upper aquifer or fracture system that had fresh water albeit at low flow. The salty water was entering the fresh water zone and threatened nearby wells with salty water. The driller had ready access to cedar posts and without asking anyone he pounded these posts into the hole and sealed the well below the fresh zone. The wood swelled up and created the seal. The upper zone was cemented off. This use of fence posts is not conventional by any means. It worked.

I do fail to see how your blasting the well will work. However, I would also have pooed on the cedar posts.

I am reluctant to present my own idea and know how easy it is to criticize another"s idea. We only have our own experience to draw on. I do not know what debris and drill tools remain in the well and wondered if they could be removed or drilled out at least partially so that a plug could be put on the upper portion of the well. It could be mechanical like a packer (something like the cedar posts) or a BOP. I am of the opinion that the field people have racked their brains and would pack the well if possible if only temp till they could put the permanent cap on or drill the relief well. My knowledge of oil well drilling is limited but I do learn from this thread.

I can not say I like your approach to blast but keep thinking..sorry no offense intended.

Thanks kevinm

This may explain my thoughts a bit better. No need to drill as deep into the bed rock as you would to find oil or gas. If these explosions are at 50 feet apart from each other they would sure crimp any pipe, concrete casing or not and create the two seal off points (the green ones). I forgot to put one in but I think you get the drift.

I just don't have the time to start a new thread right now and ask the explosives experts about the idea, so I will leave it here and annoy you guys instead, for the time being.

Rorschach, were in my plan does gas and oil come into play, except in the damn well bore? Explosion 1. would only have to be at a depth of 250 feet. Here is a drawing that has encouraged me to think on these tracks. I can't remember who contributed that but thanks again, Ky.

The one use of a run away well that a well controlled explosive can help is in extinguishing a burning gusher. This spectacular scenario has been documented many times.

True, but just for extinguishing the flames - so you can get in to turn off the flow.

Dear Rorschach

Let me respond in my naive way.

Not no, but hell no! There are still several things that can be done that would be completely impossible if they were to attempt what you envision.

After understanding what caused the accident in the first place namely uncontrollable gas pockets, not present in most other wells, what is there left to do but to close the sucker down. once and for all. Why feed a dog that bites you? I understand they knew she was a difficult drill and had hit those pockets of gas before. I know it happens with most drills but this one was always a nasty piece of work. So I hear.

Secondly they would STILL NEED TO DRILL THE BOREHOLE which if they are going to do that, they might as well go ahead and drill into the casing and cement the well!

The borehole you are talking about is much more complicated than the one I am thinking about. For one, drilling horizontally will not be necessary at all. No concreting no huge bore diameter needed. There have been holes drilled through granite as far as I know. No pressure differentials have to be taken into account during this procedure either. Just steel on whatever the bed rock consists of.

The time differential between your idea and cementing the casing is probably only a couple of hours at best.

That I do not understand. I have no plans of cementing nor do I see a chance for them to cement anything. Not now and not later. That's how it all started now, wasn't it. I am just suggesting, now with more vigor, to include the explosives experts into this discussion. Unless I hear it from these Artists that it can not be done I will persist that it can be done. It will not be a job that any one of these guys has ever done by why should they not raise to the occasion?

Why do something that A: has a very small chance at working,

I think the chances of this working are close to being one hundred% (100%) and could be achieved faster than any thing else on the table. You just have to think big and start drilling now, not wait until all standard approaches have failed and the hurricane season is upon these poor people all along the coast.

You know what, this will lead to nothing, this collision between pro and con. I think I will start a new thread with the title "Any explosives experts who want to speculate on this?" Maybe they have not even thought of their potential involvement.

and B: could make things so very much worse

OK my friend, on a scale from 0 to 10, how much more 'worserer' can it get. Are we at 3 or 4 or are we at 10. In any case, will we ever get back to 0? Why would controlled blasting make it worse? You could blast a cavity at 300 feet in the rock bed and not have a bubble come out. Well, maybe, but that would be the last thing that would come out of this bore (hell hole). Yep, not only one but several, one after the other and then top it of with the mother of them all. Hold me back some one, hold me back.

when in a couple more hours you can completely stop the blowout the RIGHT WAY?

What are these couple of hours you keep referring to? I just don't get it.

I must remember to start that new thread, as if I had nothing else to do, like getting some butter on my bread.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

KY, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about here. you still have to drill 18000 ft. through essentially the same formation the first well was drilled through with the same gas pockets. the diameter is driven by the depth. You ABSOLUTELY have to cement the casing for those reasons.

How much worse can it get? on a scale of 1-10? 100!

Ky, I'm sorry but you really need to leave this to people who have a clue.

Not even Tim the Tool-man Taylor would want to put a nuke into a gassy under sea oil-well. Well maybe he'd want to but they won't let him near one.

_{Back to the shadows again,}

_{Out where an indian's your friend,}

_{Where the vegetables are green and you can pee right into the stream,}

_{Cause we're back to the shadows again.}

there is 18000 feet of rock down to the formation (oil) below the seabed. Even if you only adjust the top 100 feet of rock, that would be enough to stop the flow of oil. Its a good idea. (To me)

In 1958, the Canadian guvmint used 1,270 metric tons of Nitramex 2H explosives to blast away the Ripple Rock formation,which had terrorized shipping in the area (campbell river) for centuries. (Youtube)(Wiki)

I think a placement of shaped charges, offset from the wellbore, would kick and shear the rock sideways, and close off the well, and the water will absorb the energy quite easily.

Chris

Explosives do an exceptional job of taking large things and making them into a large amount of little things. Now in the case of explosive bolts this can make for very precise separations because each bolt is now thousands of little pieces. But explosives do not make many things one, a seal for instance. Explosives make one thing into many pieces. So unless you really want many places for a leak to happen, forget about nuclear devices!

Hi Red, Right about the fractionating. A small nuke however, can generate the heat to melt everything together, rather than exploding it. This is theoretically possible. But I am too stupid to process it.

Thanks Chris

Yep, imagine something like that at 5000 feet under water. For the last one (#5) on my drawing. The others would be smaller and aimed at the bore well and crimp the pipe shut. No guess work, all calculated by the experts, the ones creating the bunker busters at this time.

Red Fred, I am not sure what you are on about. There is no gas or oil at that depth, 250 feet into the bed rock. Only a bore well guiding the BP profits to the top. Even if the parts after the explosion were smaller the pipe would be, well, stuffed and crimped at the same time. No connection with the oil or gas reserves. Just shut the bugger down and do it as soon as possible.

I know it is lucky circumstances that we are not in the same room and both waving arms and raising our voices. Please, don't be too upset, just want to think differently and not waste any more time, like has been done with the "big box" attempt. If they had filled it with TNT and let her rip, do you really think it would have done more damage than it is doing now and every minute from now on?

I know this is easy to say for me, sitting here, no responsibility, not much knowledge but a thriving fantasy and the belief that an explosives expert could calculate what I am on about and at the same time make sure that the amount and direction of the blast is just right. I think I will have to go all the way and post a different thread on this. There are explosives experts in CR4, aren't there?

The freezing of the well will not happen. What will happen in that case, is, that an ever rising volcano type solid ice dome would build up and always let the pressure find the least path of resistance. Would be interesting for the movie version though.

Hope all goes well, Ky.

I forgot to mention that these explosive drill holes should be compulsory for all off shore drill platforms, just in case the BOP eff's up. If it happens once and nothing is changed (drastically) then it will and can happen again. Dog forbid, Ky.

Ok, lets all look at this video of a quarry blast. This is how solid rock gets turned into rubble. Now there are hundreds of these videos out there and they all do the same thing, but you are free to find one that fuses rock instead. The size, location and length of these charges will change the amount of rubble produced. So if your intent is to produce a lot of rubble under the well head to choke the flow like Stop Leak radiator sealant then maybe, just maybe this might work. However, at the same time that you're making rubble, the path that was once a reasonably well controlled pipe has now gotten considerably wider at the site of the explosions. The added pressure of this explosion just might blow the BOP and the well head right off.

Lastly as far as the use of a nuclear bomb to make sure of a good seal, scroll down to section "7.4.1 Discharge of radioactivity from underground test explosions" Here you'll find that one out of every five underground explosions leak. They leak without oil and gas pressure trying to force their way up to the surface.

But don't feel bad. The drive for finding a good use for a nuclear device has been tried before to stop a burning gas well. You'll find it at the bottom of the nuclear bomb link. It didn't work!

To be fair, the illustrated blasting in quarries uses charge patterns designed for one thing and one thing only, viz. to turn as much solid rock to rubble as possible.

But they also manage to do it in a wonderfully straight line. It's about knowing how to place charges, how much to use etc.

Hope I'm not talking like a friggin' idiot here, but I don't think chucking a stick of dy-ne-mite and yellin' "duck!" is on the agenda.

Also think I've read most posts on this thread - can you please help me out by indicating where nukes first came into the discussion? - I seem to have missed it.

This particular side thread may not have brought up nuclear devices, but I'm certain that it came up here before. I remember Rorschach scoffing at the idea of a nuke earlier. At over 300 postings where, who and how the "more power" idea of a nuke came up eludes me. But Rorschach made the most significant argument against the idea that even the smallest charge carefully placed would be a good idea in this scenario. For once a rig was capable of drilling close enough to fire a charge that would fracture debris into the line, a few more hours of careful drilling will permit backfilling the damaged well with cement with no added damage to the crust.

It was my post #104 where I was saying Ky's proposal has zero chance of working and I further said "you might as well have set off a freaking nuke in the well for all the good it would do you."

Apparently that was taken to mean by some people that setting off a nuke in the borehole would somehow make everything all right. That was not at ALL what I was trying to say. I was trying to say it would be almost that bad.

Reading comprehension is a hit or miss thing around here sometimes.

It was Chris, it was Chris, he suggested it some time earlier.

Yes, it is not easy to get words around this and use the proper terminologies and procedures. I have posted a new thread so that the experts can get this out of my system. I could post the link here but want to address the experts in the field, if any are subscribed to CR4. Lots of head banging going on here but not the real big and controlled bang.

Here is another graph, maybe it helps to understand better what I am on about.

Sorry to keep pestering you with this but the against arguments have not convinced me yet. If this were about the size of a flange or how to change from AC to DC power I would have been happy by now but this is really bugging me.

Hope you don't mind, Ky.

Sorry for dobbing you in Chris

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/54457/Explosives-experts-could-this-be-done

I'm not sure if you posted it in the right section?

A conventional perforation gun (a shaped charge used to perforate casing) will only penetrate about a dozen feet at most in hard rock, and won't do more than crack the cement around the casing. you won't be able to focus enough energy to collapse the casing without virtually drilling within a half-dozen feet or so of the well, and if you are that close you might as well go ahead and drill all the way through and pump it full of cement which you KNOW will work.

Hey Ky:

I am not one to crap on anyone's parade and I admire your gumption to present an idea. I have seen so many water wells ruined by people thinking dynamite can solve an issue with quantity. Slow wells can sometimes respond fracturing the bedrock and providing more area for the water to enter the well. The most poorly applied charges in a well are to simply hang a few sticks at a certain level or formation and set her off. In essence all the well does is act like a long barrel rifle and the blast will fire a few gallons of water and debris up in the air a few hundred feet. I have never seen a charge like this work to the advantage of getting more water in the well. However, I have seen it cause debris to fall into the well so that a pump could no longer go into the well. Bear in mind that the purpose of blasting is to create more fractures in the bedrock not to seal the well.

The second method is to set a charge at the desired depth, pack the well with sand above and below the charge area, to direct the charge sideways into the well wall. I have seen some success with blasting in this manner but it is expensive and can run more than the cost of the original drilling. At times storage is a better sure fired method of making marginal wells usable. I have used wells producing 1/4 gpm to supply domestic water. Pump to storage and then re-pump from the storage to household demand. It is not cheap but has proven to work to the required end.

The other more tried method from the oil industry is "fracking" or fracturing. This is done with a system of packers sealing a zone and high pressure water (sometimes CO2) is forced into the zone targeted to be developed as water bearing. Again expensive but with some success in certain formations.

Back to blasting the well in the Gulf; I think it is difficult to direct a charge so that the blast is directed into the walls. If you can reach the stage of packing off the well, then why not simply seal the well with proven technology. Remember the Gulf well has had a blowout. From the news reports at my 5 PM channel there are already multiple leaks at the main well and more than one dome over the well and area is reported required. I really believe blasting (unless someone knows exactly what will happen) is futile. It has a very low chance of success and a very high chance of exacerbating the problem. The well is full of mechanical debris that also must be removed.

Ky, I have no experience in oil patch drilling. I have lots in well drilling for water and am just applying that technology to the oil well. My experience is in design and application of water wells and water treatment. This could be very different experience than what is required to solve the Gulf well issues. I am still trying to work my head around the relief well and how it will work to stop the flow from this damaged well. In water wells if you pump an adjacent well hard it lowers the aquifer to stop flow. Oil on the continental shelf is different.

For your information there is a lot of oil that seeps naturally from the continental shelves around North America. Most of the seeps enter the ocean below the sediments and get locked up in these sediment where bacteria break it down. And there is a lot of oil out there. Not all the oil is consumed by the bacteria as there is something stopping complete reduction. Perhaps if the seepage could be directed downward so that it is released under the ocean sediments it would mimic natural seepage. This is a great technical problem and I feel confident that the oil patch guys will git r done.

Thanks

I know more now than I knew yesterday. Sobering information but maybe my drawing explains it a bit better.

Gotta go now, see you later, Ky.

That's how the oil business started up here in PA.

The oil was a nuisance that became an industry spending billions in the world's economies and employing millions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Drake

This is not off topic, it is important to show the history and importance of oil to the world's economies.

Gasoline, the liquid we love to hate, cheaper than milk, bottled water, and soft drinks.

Never could figure out that love/hate relationship with the American public.

All relevant information, I'm learning by the minute. Your earlier links were on the spot as well. Rorschach's detailed explanations of the hardware was very important and I can see now why my approach is a bit out of thin air.

Thanks, Ky.

Ky, a lot of what we know about shaped explosive charges came out of WWII weapons research, first as armor piercing warheads in bazookas and the German Panzerfaust weapons, but they were really brought to their pinnacle during the Manhattan Project. in order to get Pu239 to fission properly it had to be compressed symmetrically in all three dimensions in nanoseconds. the only way to do that was to surround a sphere of Pu239 with shaped charges in a spherical arrangement and wire all of the detonators to special spark gap gas discharge switches that were all triggered at the exact same moment. outside of the task of making and then separating the plutonium, the engineering of that spherical array of charges and how to set them off at exactly the same moment and matching the detonation rate of the shaped charges so the pressure wave reaches the plutonium pit at the exact same moment. they started out with a two dimensional array around a piece of pipe (since plutonium is so hard to come by). and attempted to crush the pipe and explosively weld it into a solid rod. they went through hundreds of pipes, most all of them shredded and ragged, before they finally got it right.

I say all this so that you understand how the explosive charges would have to be arrayed and how difficult what you envision would actually be.

Drilling into the well and pumping cement is so very much easier and more likely to succeed.

Good being friends, very valuable information. I wish I could be of more help, these poor bastards, that have to make these decisions plus all the others, waiting for them to make them and execute them. Wow, what a challenge, what a massive challenge.

My heart goes out to them, Ky.

What if the charge(s) was/were actually placed in the surrounding strata and not in direct contact with the pipe/casing. Wouldn't the strata spread the pressure wave out and tend flatten the pipe/casing instead of cutting or tearing it?

Hi C.M

Take a bit more time and read through my posts. I think I have explained what you are suggesting but don't have the time at the moment to backtrack.

Should be interesting for you. I will be in touch in a day or two.

I'm over it, as they say, Ky.

it should be cheaper than milk, water or soft drinks... It tastes terrible!

um fire water taste bad, not cheap...something not right

I got some infested and contaminated trade blankets for trade also.

Does this tell me that somewhere in your misspent youth, you siphoned gasoline by mouth?

nah... grew up on the farm with some beaters for small engined vehicles (an old allouette snowmobile, a sears lawn tractor, lawnmowers, and various other engines...)

With the snowmobile, I think my mouth might have been considered part of the fuel delivery system; it was a daily operation in the winter to have to suck fuel up, and jam the tube on the bottom of the carb before it quit flowing. )

was a good experience though.. studied small engines in school, and then later worked in a tool rental shop, maintaining small construction equipment, (chainsaws, power trowels, etc.)

Back in days of olde, when I was a lad, I think every machine that passed through the farm was a beater, and believe me we concocted some strange fuel delivery systems, and priming by siphon was usually a necessity. I remember seeing an old jerry can mounted with a drip hose trying to fuel an old tractor to get it up and running. Pretty hit and miss, sounded worse or shall I say sweeter than an old John Deere PuttPutt trying to start. Sure taught me a lot about rotating equipment though, some of the old tricks are still used in the field, and make the design engineers cringe when I tell them.

Whatchaknow Joe???

Quick question for you. I worked for Halliburton out in the Permian Basin on a frac crew many decades ago so I would defer to your knowledge as a driller. Why can't they just bolt a production riser on the failed BOP?,,, Or better yet, put a new BOP/Riser package on the wellhead???

It seems that there are leaks below the Gulf floor level.

That everything is kept very secret.

And If someone is holding back info, he should change his suit for a jail uniform.

Nobody has the right to endanger life.

There is even a post for help on innocentive with a deadline on 5/30. Like they have all the time.

There are many possible fixes.

But for this typical fix we would like to know a situation description or sketch.

If it cannot be plugged with what they try, other solutions can work.

The pressure is there, a pipe is needed to be put over the old one. The density of the oil. combined with the pressure will direct the oil upwards through the new pipe.

But about 1500 meter pipe is heavy and difficult to support and crane barges will have to carry the load and stay in place, or it can crack again.

Without good support the joins of the pipe elements will be critical over that length. All by all, the latter is only a temporary diversion of the oil to barges or tankers, to contain the spill

This hole has to be closed anyway.

It may be that many ideas have already been submitted. My worry is that the US Gov. may take too long to try them out.

I agree with you that the pipe idea all the way to the bottom is almost impractical . At 133 gallons per minute, you would need a lot of pipe and something HUGE at the surface to hold it vertical or on an angle.

A 2-4 knot current shoving on 5,000 plus feet of pipe would create some issues on its own....not to mention a 20 knot wind and 8-10 seas .

Its going to be a mess no matter what.

Some North Sea platforms are floating too. It is not impossible. If 1500 m dredging pipes would do? Made lighter with floating devices once down. These should be available "en masse". This is temporary anyway.

I know nothing about this matter but this heart wrenching tragedy makes me wander if a heavy steel collar, the height of the suspected pipe damage, that simply slips down to the bottom (where the damage is), wuld be of any help ?

Yahlasit

You clearly did not take the time to read anything that I or anyone else has written then, because you clearly have no idea what you are proposing. First off the riser is twisted up on the sea floor, second it is 5000 feet under water.

Why is there never any comment about Transocean?

BP hired Transocean, the Horizon, and a Transocean crew to drill.

BP has taken the roll of a spokesman, and I wonder why Transocean is staying mum.

Transocean was responsible for inspecting the rig, maintaining it, operating it, and probably hiring the sub contractors such as Halliburton.

Hell, even though BP owned the lease, a lot of legal rulings I have seen allow for the contractor, such as Transocean to retain title to the well and turn over to the lease holder upon completion. Such may or may not hold true here, but it is a thought.

It is a sorry event, no excuses should be made, and we do have the technology, but accounting and shareholders don't think money should be spent on quality and safety (they are not short profit centers).

Good question.

Transocean is in on this.

I also heard, but could not qualify ,that Halliburton did the BOP job.

Anyone knows for sure?

Making my living from the fringes of the biz right now 3rd party for casing, pipe, and equipment, my fellow hands in Houston and S. LA are beating their brains out on this one. Speaking of casing, I wish the media would at least get it right, it is not pipe, but casing.

The government involvement will surely slow it down, but it also makes me chuckle seeing that NASA and the aerospace guys find their small machines are no good in the real world of heavy industrial.

A API 510 and 570 Inspector tells me that he know for a fact that Transocean modified the BOP and never changed the drawings, which could have led to the impossibility of ROVs or even the automatic system shutting the well down.

I was contacted by a BP person late Friday afternoon, as I have QAed a lot of the types of casing used and they just want some input. (Tubular Bells)

I know where the casing was made, the QA Department there is not over anxious, and also a company down your way that reexamined the casing by Full Body UT and ultimately accepted it.

Transocean is now based in Switzerland, and the Horizon was flagged in the Marshall Islands, effectively creating more hurdles to liability.

Do you think the rig wreckage is on top of the BOP ....or away from it?

I originally read that the structure was about 1500' (457 meters) away from the well.

If this is so, it should be open to view. There was one pic on line that showed the ROV at the BOP using the lighting and it appeared to be free of obstructions.

I wish a convert calculator could be built into the toolbar for us Yanks, so we could convert quicker and probably more accurately.

The most obvious reason that BP and not Transocean keeps coming up in the news is that the average Dick and Jane know of BP and not Transocean. This alone will keep BP and not Transocean in the news. What also keeps this is BP's lack of a noticeable attempt to shrug responsibility. So far the only thing I've heard from BP was some quiet, measured, but not evasive answers, respect for the lives that have already been lost and a focus on attempting fix this as fast as possible. Unlike others recently that have tried to apparently duck responsibility from the beginning of their corporate disaster, it looks to me that BP is taking the better path. This welcome change in corporate response will keep their name in the papers.

I do think BP, Tony Hayward, and all of the BP gang are doing a fine and (most important) humble job of dealing with this.

BP does have US operations though, I woder who bid on this particular lease though.

BP gets the hit, because they have deeper pockets than Transocean. Halliburton is too well connected politically to take the hit. BP it is, whether they have any direct culpability or not. Transocean would most likely declare bankruptcy and change their name, so no one got anything for cleanup or recovery...

So, its Transocean's crew , working the rig, correct?

qaqc says and is correct, Transocean is owned in Sweden. ( However BP is owned in the UK,??)

Now we hear that the Horizon herself was under a Flag of Convenience of the Marshall Islands. True again.

How does this play out under Maritime Law?

Better yet, how much is BP now going to be accountable for it?

All great questions and any contact one of us might have on this is going to be so mum right now, even if they are not involved.

Shell, another major player is a company based in The Netherlands, and rumor has it, they are owned by The Queen of Holland.

The Royal Shell company, partly owned by the Queen.

Yes sir, and I wonder how much of BP Queen Elizabeth owns.

Why not just ask?

Your shareholding in BP is recorded on a register of shareholders. The register is a list of the names and addresses of all BP ordinary shareholders and the number of shares each owns. The register is maintained on behalf of the company by Equiniti ('the Registrar'). The BP Registrar updates the register when your personal circumstances or shareholding change, and also sends out your dividend cheques and share certificates.

By law, the register is a public document which the Registrar must make available for inspection when requested. A request must contain the name and address of the person seeking access, a statement of what the information will be used for, whether it will be shared with anyone else and if so, to whom and for what purpose. BP will not provide details of any individual shareholder to third parties, beyond our legal obligations to do

Another direction...................

If you were to be at the site of the leak, would the oil be bubbling out like a busted air line or would it more forceful in a stream or bursts?

I would imagine that the great depth combined with the random nature of the currents that after the oil slows down to ocean currents (200,000 gallons per day is about 2.3 gallons per second) that individual large blobs would be scattered by the currents to various random but not too distant locations.

But what would I know. Despite my address, I'm a land lubber that only takes a boat if it's a ferry.

most definitely a forceful stream.

I just read this:

"Other shoreline preparations include using air cannons to scare birds away from slicks, said Chris Reddy of Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution in Woods Hole, Mass. "Birds really don't do well with oil spills."

In a Blog on CR4.

Ask any catfish farmer in La., Ark., Miss., or Ala. what happens to propane cannons after 10 days or less..............

The Cormarants and gulls sit on them and poop every time they go off!

Useless after a one tank of propane in most cases.

Well gents, the Fat Lady is singing now.

The HORIZON OIL SPILL is directly over the DEAD ZONE.

Will this help spread the hypoxia even further? New questions just keep popping up eh?

Check here: Coup de grace

* U of Minn. website credit

Looks like Chinese Tiger prawns in the etouffe this year.