Oil Spill

Hi Kevin, nice to have you back. IMO The hydrates are formed out of the BOP, due to expansion, a process that produces lots of cold. The methane is in the crude. Of course I agree that the cementing did release some outside the pipe, but that should be repairing itself if the conditions remain as they are now. D

Thanks for the valuable info and the attached paper.

Nevertheless, I assume that we might have to deal with a dynamic process, generated by the flow of the crude. I have the impression that the ice crystals are formed on the way to escape. I do not call these hydrates, while they probably are. Just to make a distinction.

Every now and then you just have to sit back and laugh or at least try to. Too much stress and all sorts of bad things happen.

On another note;

is it just me .....but these oil booms are too short in depth and small in surface volume to handle even the smallest wave action.

Why aren't they larger?

because they were really designed for use in coastal areas and bays where the waves aren't as high. They weren't designed to be used in the open gulf.

Gotta' git in the shop , but my next question to the wonderful world of oil containment is ; "why hasn't someone come up with something that can be used in 1-3 ft. seas at least? It seems to me you could just expand on the present size and add a little more bouyancy.

Anyway.

I'll catch up on the scoop later today. Professor what's his name is looking for his Atlantic Sturgeon sampling trawl..........and its still laying in a pile of big ol' cut up pieces on the floor. I hope my wife remembers how we cut it out last week and which piece goes where. I am NOT responsible for any design or assembly glitches on a Monday morning.....period!

I have an idea. (idealized, and I'm sure fraught with some technical complications but..)

Position another rig over the well head that can handle a huge hook load. Fill 5000 feet of the 18" drill pipe segments with concrete and transport to the site on a barge. Use the rig to piece together the (now heavy) drill string. When it reaches the well head, open up the BOP's and position the drill string as though you were going to drill.. but then simply drop the whole drill string down the hole.

Of course any wreckage and equipment over the bop's would have to be cleared away first. This will stop the hole dead. Forget trying to recover any oil from this well. If they want to tap the reservoir later... it would be a new hole.

Whatever pressure the heavy drill string doesn't stop, then you can pour cement in after, or simply repeat the operation.

What do you think? (drawing not to scale)

Chris

I think Chris that the pipe is not standing up. It will also be a lot of trouble to even connect to what there is now, because of the flow out of the pipe. When your setup works, they could also tap of the oil anyhow. If you try to push something down from that height ( or to that depth) is will act like a bow and bend. Don't forget there is a lot pushing up too. Try to clog your water hose with your finger and that is only a few bars pressure. Down there is tens of times, maybe more than a hundred times more pressure. A torpedo wouldn't even make it.

Humor me on this one.

In plain Joe 6 pack language:

how much pressure would you all guess the oil is producing at these distances from the well?

Pressure being in something I can relate to, like a garden hose on my water well hits about 55 lbs. at the nozzle on a 25' x 5/8" hose.

A fireman's hose from a hydrant in the street might hit 200 lbs.(?) at the end of his 100' hose(?)

What would be a good guess at these distances?

Just a good guess.

Think it would be like running your garden hose in a swimming pool - you wouldn't have to go far from the nozzle until the pressure was pretty close to that of the undisturbed water.

Once the genie's out of the bottle, it'll go where it wants (given that it wants to go generally up - it listened to Archimedes - and of course the currents will persuade it somewhat).

That's my humble guess.

Wild guess:

At 10 meters 1700 psi

At 20 meters 42 psi

At 30 meters 6.5 psi

Using invérse square rulé a la Cajun

Kevin, what is the cheating on this?

Where is the top of the hose? The sprays in free air?

I assumed it was underwater. If it is in the air, it will be a deadly water cannon at 30 meters. I do believe the water cannon will deliver a force of 30 atm at 30 meters. That will knock a person down and even break ribs. If we are dealing with the net discharge reported in earlier posts of 1600 or 1700 psi at 700 gpm in air, then you had better look for the targeted person in the next field. Bam

Maybe I am reading the question wrong.

If he means house pressures of 60 psi from a garden hose delivering 4 gpm then its not very spectacular at all and may not even reach the 30 meters unless it is downwind. ahh

ca ce bon, mon amis.

merci.

nm

I am referring to the well head at the 5,000 foot depth and the pressure of the oil and whatever coming out UNDER WATER AT THE BOTTOM OF THE GOM.

thank you again.

I agree, and also speculate on the water temperature in the gulf, which over a considerable distance will be 15 Celsius plus ( surface 20 plus) I just don't understand what they are doing right now. Does it seem that now the experiments will begin? IMO, while there is a way to contain the continuing flow with canalization and release on top, it is only a ticket for new dangerous situations to deal with:

1. permanent explosion and fire hazard during discharge and loading into tankers once there should be a open reservoir to supply from on the surface

2. The stormy conditions, coming up with the hurricane season that officially starts next month and ends in November. Nobody will be able to continue to discharge if no special "closed" and storm proof solutions are and stay positioned in place. It will be a challenge to keep everything lined up and positioned. A GA for you for the clear explanation. I cannot verbalize it that way.

GA 34.5 and well explained.

I am curious about something about CO2 in oil wells. I worked in the ground water industry for 40 years and know some things in the oil industry overlap. When a water well was sampled I would always do enough analysis to place the water on a redox curve and could predict how the well would behave over time. With the right set of parameters, it is even possible to predict bio-fouling issues.The redox curve would help identify expected parameters and may lead to more sampling. To explain:

Water enters the ground through infiltration and as it does it picks up total organic carbon (TOC) and other trace nutrients. Bacteria soon attack the carbon and use energy source (electron donors). So oxygen which is usually abundant in the first few inches or feet of soil or rock fractures becomes the first item for respiration of bacteria. As oxygen depletes other microbes take over or existing ones adapt to respire with nitrates, then to manganese, then iron, then sulfates, and then to CO2 to form methane. After each stage usually CO2 is a byproduct of the bacterial activity. So are N2 gas, Mn and Fe deposits, and H2S gas. Methane will not be formed until SO4 is nearing completion of exhaustion. We can tell when methane is present without actually testing methane by looking at what has happened before its potential formation. In some of the water wells we detect the beginnings of fossil fuel formation as the water moves ever further down the redox curve by the presence of phenols. Generally, the longer the water has been in the formation the more reduced the water can become. There are exceptions to all rules of course (ie US southwest where low amounts of TOC enter the system). The process of reduction is governed by the amount of food and nutrients to support biological activity. And believe me bacteria are key to moving the parameters down the curve. Biofouling can occur in almost any well unattended and can lead to bacteria harvesting of ores to release things like lead, arsenic, and barium as the microbes within the biofilm look for food (Usually Mineral SO4 products as sulfate reducers utilize mineral SO4 and mobilize the metal.)

Getting to my question fossil fuels are a very end product of all this reduction. I would expect all the CO2 to be depleted (oil fields would be old and in reduction mode for millions of years) and that the biological formation of methane should be absolute complete. I know there are bacteria (methanotrophs) that will prey on CH4 and release CO2. I did not realize that these methanotroph bacteria would be prevalent in significant numbers. I would have thought methane producing bacteria were much more abundant and thus CO2 would be very low within the oil.

I have not dealt with oil field wells and its related microbiology and chemistry. The redox curve is very useful in ground water analysis as we can predict water behavior over time. It also helps to explain the microbial byproducts of heavy metals released into water supplies from natural sources. Hopefully this short post is enough to explain as well as you did what I am trying to understand. Is CO2 in oil fields abundant ?

Wow - "abundant" - tricky question. It occurs along with CO and CH4 across the collective fossil fuel deposits. Different deposits are at different stages of evolution.

It's not like a standardized process, or 'one batch' conditions, or even uniform original inputs, so the mix varies, and you get pockets of this and that. Hence I was asking earlier what is the composition of this particular leak.

But bear in mind I wasn't highlighting CO2 as the problem - just using it as an example of the states and behavior, as people are generally familiar with 'dry ice' but not so much with crystalline methane.

But yes it will be in there in some %, just as it is in 'natural gas' and coal.

Hi 34.5, Here is a link to copy and paste. It shows the temperatures in oceans at different depths.

[phttp://www.windows2universe.org/earth/Water/temp.html

Like the situation is now we do not see ICEBERGS appear, which IMO means that there is enough thermal energy to thaw the Crystals

. This post has not a lot input('ers) anymore as I noticed. Divert it to a 4th and different makes no sense to me.

Actually I take issue with one point of your explanation, Methane Hydrates won't go liquid and then go gaseous. they don't work like that. Perhaps you don't understand what methane hydrate is which would explain your misconception.

Methane Hydrate is not frozen methane, it is gaseous methane trapped in the pore spaces between water molecule lattice of water ice. not unlike the way carbon atoms are trapped in the FCC/BCC lattice of steel. The methane has to be far colder to freeze. the temperature at that depth is going to be in the neighborhood of 20 degrees F. Just below the freezing point of fresh water at atmospheric pressure. as the gas escapes the end of the pipe it undergoes self-refrigeration due to expansion, which freezes the surrounding seawater and traps methane in the lattice. but such hydrates are unstable, small changes in temperature or pressure can cause the methane to boil back out of the ice quite quickly.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25238/page1/#comment-219781

I don't know why this wasn't posted on this thread but.....BP Suffers Snag in Oil Containment Effort

It would appear they have already discovered the velocity / expansion phenomena.

Could have save me some typing

ah,very pleased that their was no direct reply to my post #267,,,oil gas leak BELOW BOP,,,,,,perhaps I miss-quoted,,,,or I was reading out of context,,,,something,whatever,,bottom line I was WRONG,,,I do so much want this to be the case.,,that I AM WRONG...

Make-em-bite,

Joe in Texas

No I've heard the same thing from a reliable source, my brother, who was in Houston all last week, and is a BOP specialist.

chrisg288,,,,,,

I really,really want to get this RIGHT (correct)

Please pardon the capitol letters,they are meant for emphasis not for shouting.

Are you agreeing with me that I possibly did read a BP article,that I can no longer quote,,that in my excitement and despair DID NOT bookmark,,can NOT,go back to or find containing the words,,,A LEAK IN THE CASING BELOW THE WELLHEAD,,,?????

If such is the case,,,then I would suggest that Prayer is very much in demand,called for,and needed desperately.That is about all we are going to have to work with.

Lets hope the people in charge have access to some water ground penetrating radar,,we desperately need to know what we have coming our way,,,,for coming it is,,,,the relief well crews had better keep the life boat motors running and ready to abandon ship,,,mankind has not found a way to stop a hurricane,a tornado ,nor a volcano.

Make em bite?,,They are eating me up.

Joe in Texas

What he told me was that in the rush to complete the cementing job, they fractured the formation below the bop's, and that was the cause of the 'secondary leaks.' (so I assume that somehow the casing was broken too.)

He also told me that the shear rams had both casing and drill pipe in the bop's at the same time, and that was the reason the rams couldn't close. they only crimped the pipes, but couldn't shear it.

Chris

Here is a transcript of the Mark Levin show in which a worker from the rig calls in and explains what was going on at the time.

http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=92765

Maybe Landau has it right. Lets get the whole industry involved and start drilling wells around the site to relieve the rogue well. The well is a big issue internationally and the longer it all takes the more likely it will be a monster issue. If the one relief well fails we at least have other potential relief wells to fall back.

Drilling multiple wells will not save time!!!!! You cannot get one baby born in a month by getting nine women pregnant at the same party!!!!!

It was one hell of a party though. Ah those were the days, I think.

True, but two different drill ships are drilling relief wells from opposite directions on the chance that if one runs into problems the other might not. Besides, competition brings out the best in everyone. Developmental Driller II got started late as it took a little more time for it to finish what it was doing when it was called up, Developmental Driller III, it's sister ship, started first a week ago Saturday. Discoverer Enterprise and the Helix Q4000 are both on station working on trying to cap the well.

There is another thread recently posted by Rabbit16. He has an idea that the well head could be frozen using Liquid Nitrogen (LN2). I am not sure how it is meant to work and I suggested Rabbit16 post the question here on this thread.

I think his idea may have merit. There is a device that will freeze water lines temporarily so the plumbing between the freeze points can be worked on. Although the idea is similar between this device and Rabbit16s idea, I know that depth and high velocity flow rate are issues to using such a device. I am also not sure how cold the water is a 5000 feet but I suspect -3 degrees C or thereabouts?? I also do not know what freezing T is at the depth and salinity at this level.

Anyone find a phase diagram for N₂? I looked around a bit, but couldn't spot one.

Just thinking.

LN2 is often used to freeze wellheads on land, but the trick is getting enough of it 5000 ft down to the wellhead without it going gaseous on the way.

What is done is a water based gel (essentially jell-o) is pumped into the wellhead followed by LN2. But that assumes that the wellhead is not spewing everywhere. it is used when the only valve holding pressure needs to be replaced (usually because they didn't maintain it and the handle twisted off when they went to open it), I'm not sure it could be adapted to this situation

Thanks Rorscharch. There are a lot of procedures in oil well drilling that are novel to me. I would say I know twice as much just reading this thread but that would still be zero. You have been a great contributor as usual and I feel that I am a step above CNN.

I am sure the power thinkers are considering many of the same ideas here but we should look under every rock till we get it right.

One question that I have never seen answered or have not been able to Google is the depth (at the gulf well) of the unconsolidated seabed to the consolidated bedrock. My understanding it is several hundred feet but not really sure. I suspect a cemented hardpan may be a large part of this formation we sometimes call unconsolidated. The hardpan I am familiar only moves with hoe-rams or dynamite. It is indeed cemented. Hopefully it is loose enough around the well to allow excavation if required to expose more of the casing.

I don't know about this specific well, but usually there is at least 50-100 ft of mud before you get to anything approaching solid. Anything dropped by the ROV is basically lost forever. Most stuff must be placed on huge steel mats to keep it from sinking away in the mud.

Why not try the same thing that was used on the wells in Iraq. Cap the well with an extremely massive bell that has a tapered bottom with a tapered point that is directed into the well pipe and seal it off. The mass of the cap would have to be enough to overcome the pressure but it could also use guide lines that are anchored to the sea bed in a pattern that keeps it stable when the lines are pulled in from above. The tapered "pin" part that would actually lodge into the well pipe could even be hollow so pumps on the surface could draw massive amounts of liquid up while trying to lower it in place. This would reduce the force of the oil trying to push the plug away.

Working at depth poses a whole new set of challenges versus working on land but the concept has been proven to work on wells that have been on fire. They would set off a charge depriving the oxygen and blowing out the flame and then move in with a massive cap that overcomes the pressure with its mass and that fact that the valve is open. When secured they close the new valve and the well is sealed.

I assume that this may not be possible due to the damage to the pipe itself either above or below surface. If that is the case than they need to excavate or use charges to blast away to some fresh section of pipe. Anyone have any idea how likely it is that if shaped charges were used underwater at that depth they could set off a major explosion or fire on the surface? I am sure I am leaving out a lot of facts that really complicate this 100 times more than it appears. The details are the complex part but once you identify the issues you can work on solving them.

It really seems like everyone was very unprepared for this type of disaster. It was bound to happen eventually. It not should discourage drilling or oil exploration but it should be a major wakeup call that the emergency blowout response technology for deep water drilling is very inadequate. Now there is demand, someone just needs to come up with the products...

that presupposes several things:

A) that the end of the pipe is cut perfectly square.

B) that the piston effect from the pressure cannot overcome the weight of the cone.

C) That there isn't casing or drill pipe inside the riser in the way of the cone.

D) that the pipe is pointing straight up.

none of these are the case.

That is what I was afraid of. I am at work but skimmed the posts so I picked up some info but not all. I think that most of the public does not understand the exact nature of the problem and the conditions that are faced. It is very easy to assume that BP just isn't trying hard enough but in fact the problem is much more complex and difficult than your average Joe can comprehend. The simplest solutions are often overlooked sometimes. I have heard that BP is looking at any possible ideas to stop the leak.

I have just such an idea but I'm not sure who to contact about it. It is a design for a temporary flange that can be slid over the end of the riser after the kill line is cut off and the crimped and distorted end is sawed off (and I know where to get the diamond wire saw, it is in BP's GoM inventory, I drew some of the as built drawings for it.).

Should be fairly simple to make and even if it leaks, it won't leak nearly as much as it is currently and it will probably hold enough pressure to allow for a junk shot followed by cement to work.

Have a look here

https://gw.innocentive.com/ar/challenge/9383447

This might get you taken seriously

Unfortunately, submitting the design to them would put in the public domain, I would prefer to retain rights to the invention after this is over with. But I am not opposed to offering it to them for free for this one time use.

What about submitting the idea though InnoCentive? I am not sure what their response to your proprietary rights might be, however...

As I stated, they require anything submitted to be public domain. Also since this invention has not yet had a patent applied for, publishing anything about it invalidate my right to patent it.

The loss of rights is one of my objections to their methods

they make it clear that submitting is in effect a gift, for many of the other challenge questions, they at least offer some small payment.....

Absolutely correct in all the engineering the details Rorschach. But the most significant paragraph to Brian220x's posting is his last paragraph, it looks like nobody was prepared or anticipated this scenario in so many ways. Only a few people even appear to be doing the correct thing now in their roles. Namely the new president (CEO?) of BP (I forgot his name but he is at least displaying contrition, despite whatever flaws that get unearthed weren't under his watch)_{(naivety can be fun)} and of course the workers that have rallied together to do there best to stem this tide of goo. The systemic problem as I see it is that there was no disaster plan "A" let alone a plan "B" in place when this happened. It seems that the off shore oil drilling companies have become so successful that they've grown complacent.

This whole thing makes me sick. But recent report show the 5000 bpd is extremely low by an order of magnitude. Is there an effective way to calculate the real volume being released? Pipe size and pressure should give a ball park....

Here is an idea. See what you think. Feasible?

Chris

Nice work Chris> You are out of the box with this idea. I see problems in getting an inflation pressure (2150 psi) at 5000 feet. Also I have been told by Rorscharch that there is anywhere from 50 to 100 feet of what we Canucks call Loon Sh*t (LS). I am not sure if you can anchor your fulcrum in the LS but maybe it can be done I think. The dome you have for the top of the well will just allow the oil/gas to leak down through the LS and out around the dome.

Perhaps it may be possible to install a cup around the well, somewhat like a wine glass with the casing and cemented annular space acting like a stem. Once the cup portion of the wine glass is attached to the casing, it may be possible to to lower your dome on top of the cup portion of the wine glass to shut the well down as your last part suggests. If nothing else it buys time to drill the relief wells. The seal for the cup would have to be strong enough to hold until the dome is lowered. It may be that the cup would have to be filled with grout capable of holding back the flow. I would also think when the dome is lowered it would have to marry (threaded??) to the wine cup so a seal can be formed to withstand the well pressures. Nothing is impossible but like all impossible things it may take a little more time.

LS... I didn't realize it was that thick. I thought maybe like 6'.

but there is bedrock down there somewhere.

I know that you can get N2 in bottles at 4400 psi.. so that is what I was thinking of,

but with a long enough lever, you can just pull a rope from the surface... the fulcrum/anchor is the key. With that, you have some power to act. I'm just suggesting levers, but as DVMSC pointed out, plugs will also be an option.

chris

The bottle can only be emptied to 150 bar remaining (originally in the full ones there is 220 bar)

Or you will use plenty of bottles for 1/3 of what you pay or you use a compressor that delivers more than e.g. 160 bar.

A plug on the bop or pipe needs about 100 times less force than the sketched dome (the dome will not serve the purpose - the oil will come from underneath the dome, almost the same amount, once it finds a leak) I also don't expect the surface there to be flat.

If a plug will be used, the tightness attained will depend on the quality of finish of the plug and the seat, or the adaptability.

the reason I chose the dome idea is that I was told that the rock formation below the bops was cracked and leaking. I can't see how a plug would solve that.. but certainly a plug could slow down the main leak. (assuming the bop's are removed)(tricky operation)

If a boatload of rubble were dumped on top of the dome, then it wouldn't have to hold very long, before sufficient mass accumulates, and it can (hopefully) cover up the bop's without removing them, and cover the fractured formation as well)

but who knows....?

Chris

That part a plug won't solve. If that is the case they will need to do it from underneath, after the new hole is drilled.

With projecting a lot of rubble through it and hoping it will clog the entrance down below in the oil reservoir.

This can be a plausible explanation, why it is so quiet around with (not) providing info. Maybe they are all holding their breath? Lots of maybe's

Maybe they also think it is none of our business? Maybe they can work (only for the pipe output) on top of the BOP and just bury it afterwards.

That thing didn't do the job anyway. Just in case of plugging. If the cementing around the pipe leaks, let us pray the rubble clogs the pipe hole. I just regret they didn't try a bigger pipe or hose. How far are the works for the second hole?

How far are the works for the second hole?

You mean the one for the charges? I have still not been convinced that explosives would not do the job. I am getting tired of repeating my self and listening to rejections that do not fit my scenario. It hurts, Ky.

don't you have work to do?....lazy aussie...lol (jk)

I believe he means the relief wells that are being drilled.

Chris

I knew that but there is hope Mate. Gotta go now, Ky.

The one to shoot shredded tires, and garbage cans through. Welcome in the same club. Don't worry, we'll hurt together. If it helps, I don't reject it either, but want to keep it as apotheosis, when the rest fails. The fireworks end.

The key is going to be anchoring the fulcrum. In your drawing, you have upward pressure force on the dome from the well, and upward force from the balloons. Without a pretty solid anchor for the fulcrum, you are just going to lift the whole assembly...

There's one scenario that I still don't understand why it hasn't been pursued. First obtain a new BOP with the appropriate piping dimensions to the ocean bottom. Cut off the failing BOP, remove the drill string (that part should be easy with the oil pressure) and replace the failing BOP with a new one. Yes, for a period of time the well will be fully open and belching lots of oil. But the hours after cutting off the old BOP and while the new BOP is fully open in place getting connected will likely produce less total oil being released than what has happened. Rorschach maybe able to enlighten us about the impracticality of this.

I do not believe you have submersibles capable of handling/moving equipment as massive as a BOP. I do not know if you have sufficient access to the critical joints between the BOP and the casing stub to release the BOP with sufficient stub of casing left to which to attach a new BOP. It would appear that one does not have sufficient visibility with all that oil flowing to be able to reliably effect any sort of precision work. I am not even sure how close one can get a submersible to the well and still maintain control with the high flow of the oil. I don't thing anyone in Washington can answer these questions either. I have no confidence whatsoever in the ability of the US government to have any positive effect on this crisis. Let the experts on the scene do what they can- they want to get this over with as soon as possible, just like the rest of us. I would like to see some figures being published as to how much this is costing BP per day...

Plausible reasons but how was the original BOP installed in the first place then? I don't mean for this or my earlier suggestion to sound snarky. It's just that my suggested scenario is what would've happened long ago on dry land. I'm certain that there's a real reason this obvious scenario has not been attempted. I'm just baffled what is that reason.

We need an oil field expert to tell us how the BOP is originally set in place. I do not know if it is set before the first section of casing is set, or if it is set down on the casing after the drilling starts. What is obvious is that one does not have a high pressure fluid stream to work against, when the unit is first set, and visibility for monitoring submersibles should be better. Think about trying to put a nozzle on a hose while the hose is shooting water out at full flow- it's possible, but not as easy as when there is no flow coming out of the hose! Now, multiply the weight of that nozzle by several tons, attach it to a flexible lever about a mile long, and use small submersibles with nothing to brace against, to guide it in to place- bearing in mind you have some pretty tight tolerances to maintain if you are going to achieve the desired seal...

At what point in the process is the BOP installed? Is the initial casing set in the mud through the BOP, or is the BOP set on the stub of casing only after the first st is in place?

If you are setting your first casings through the BOP already placed, I would thing trying to set a new BOP onto an existing stub might be a really difficult issue. However, if the BOP is set down over an existing stub, then one might be able to replace a faulty one...

No, the first section of casing is installed in an open hole without a BOP. once the first section is cemented, then the BOP is installed, then the rest of the well is drilled. Sorry if I wasn't clear before. Without that first section of casing, there is nothing for the BOP to flange up to.

This is a happy solution for everyone:

We convert the house of the freezing oil, like a convertible, almost without roof - to the house of the rising oil.

With plenty of space for mini- icebergs to do the climb also and thaw on the trip to the surface.

Around the house comes a big hose or pipe, as strong as we can make it.

The house builders can go to work, the hose makers can show what they can and on top BP can collect the oil.

There is even a "Bang" zone for non smokers. This system is tested in a pool, without ice.

The drawing is not on scale as you can see. The hose should be longer, because the oil will rise on top of sea level.

Mother nature will help this work, just do not invite hurricanes.

This is a break to give the engineering group the time to eliminate the spilling hole by all means, when the new hole has been drilled, and doesn't leak.

Your house of the rising oil is one of the best out of the box ideas I have seen- but how long is it going to take to fabricate the mile-long tube? How about catching the methane at the top, compressing it, then pumping it back down to give us an "air lift" that will help suck the oil into the house?

The methane crystals will thaw on the way up and will be released to the air, just like it happens now

only (in the bang zone)

After further elaboration the methane and hydrocarbons can be recovered too, but not out of a plastic bag.

If they make the top of the pipe somewhat rigid other possibilities will open up.

Lynlynch extruded plastic I thought, blowing that 1500 m will take a few hours, when they do it in HDPE sheet.

The rolls wide plastic sheets are made that way, they are cut from opening a pipe that flows out of the xtruder The challenge will be to collect it in one piece and transport it there.

It might be easier to extrude and blow it on the spot. (leak however are no big deal, they are used to that by now and it be be less than 1%. If engineered will, they don not lose one further drop of crude to the ocean anymore.

I also do not know what can destroy the PE (free chemicals) My basic idea was a series of big 10 feet(diameter) drainage pipe, joined together, to get more strength, because there is a membrane pressure difference, that will tend to make the diameter smaller.

A practical solution to bring the pressure in and out the pipe to the same level could be extending the hose to a tower, a few hundred meters above sea level. This is one hour experimenting with how high.

That hose will be standing up by itself in the water. The gushing oil will be very calm at the surface, fairly separated from the water, ready to be pumped out of the hose, making room for new.

When you check for the biggest balloon in guinness 1997 -has been made in 12 minutes (was 250 meter) but with a extruder- blower it can be endless, as long as you feed PE to the intake. A thick quality could be tried, if transparent they also have some control of the process. But pipes as said will be more rigid and more reliable.

By now they probably also blow PP or a mix, that is chemically more resistent.

My experiences with HDPE- good for hydrocarbons (>15 years pumping diesel through it, partially subsea, with an exposed section in the tidal zone- no problems at all in 15 years). Problem- it floats. Need a lot of weight to hold it vertical (we had to put a lot of concrete anchors along the pipe to keep it on the bottom). If you can come up with some way to protect against hurricanes, you may have a scheme that can turn this in to a producing well until the pressures equalize, and no more flows from the reservoir...

SG of HDPE is 0.95 and SG of sea water at depth will be above 1.0. It will float. Is there a material with a heavier than sea water SG like ductile steel perhaps? Just not sure how to assemble it to a 5000 feet depth. It too may be very unstable in ocean currents. this project will take serious engineering even if its a temporary fix.

pipe to connect to the steel house.

That is already close

They can adapt with additives like heavier powders.

Thanks Yuri, sometimes I think it is too easy to understand. The currents under water can be an issue, but also something that can be dealt with. The more rigid the pipe is on top, the more "professional, industrial" approach can be used for further exploration. If the pipe extends into the air, they do not even need a pump and the membrane pressure difference will be closer to zero. This is high tech energy less oil collection as long the well build up the pressure. Many things I don't understand - one is why is that pipe still on the BOP? The idea with the membrane/ pipe can handle the gusher at the BOP. In fact it will work even better there. The tide difference should be 3- 4 feet, My sea charts do not show any particular non manageable currents below. I don't expect telephones to come. I am getting used to "borrowed" ideas- like the container think tank has been milked.

But I guess nobody posts here to become rich? (the wrong type - money wise richness) Great minds in the vostok part of Russia, D.

If the extrusion can be done on the spot, the plastic hose can just be blown and dropped into the ocean, where the 2 or 4 robots can sink it to the depths. Sizing comes second - just not important - This is not that big of a challenge. Planning and organisation.

D,

First let me say that the more I reflect on your solution, the more I like it. I think you have proposed a solution that will not only solve a lot of the current issue, but holds the potential to another affordable line of defense to be implemented in every case of offshore drilling in the future.

I think that the tube should be allowed a slight postive pressure relative to the seawater surrounding it, in order to ensure it's continued inflation, and that the positive pressure will assist its resistence to currents. It will then act somewhat like a pneumatic cylinder, have some rigidity.

I also submit to you that you don't need to have just one large cylinder, but can more easily implement several smaller cylinders (again with slightly positive pressure), and if necessary, enshroud them with a larger one, or bind them together by other means. (all connected to a common manifold base, similar to your design)

This will increase the safety of the system in terms of leakage by puncture or rupture, or other failure.

Again... brilliant idea. I think it needs to be passed on to the BP site.

Chris

Chris, The house they made can be used. It will save a lot of time. Pumping the oil out to tanker will be also more difficult out of smaller hoses, although if the can connect to a large reservoir up it will work too. I just want to prevent that the Ice can tough constructions to freeze up masses against it. We had that example already before. Those masses could be growing big and nothing is the rule. It depends on how much comes at one moment different from another. The PE is easy to weld in the air. And probably devices for underwater are also available, or easy to make. Thank you, keep on the good work.

Nice presentation. Although I stick with the mini "lake idea". If not done well the hoses are as flat as an envelope and will be lifted from the house or rupture. 34,5 points also to the membrane tension - oil - plastic -water - difficult to coop with. We need to think, a mini ocean in the ocean, with room for climbing oil. The top has some extra's you'll find when you read everything all over. I am also convinced that here is room for some teamwork. Too much oil will restrict the hose. I think our friend took himself a nice oil bath this weekend - Was it from a PE bag? 65point5 off topic I suppose? The pressure in the hoses is give and take. However, if this will be used and it works, we party and if not we party too, before the oil gets here. To finish the design, we still need some figures: densities, volumes temperatures

No, no oil bath, I just watched the Video a few times.

If you work on the pipe being 22" dia and estimate the velocity in terms of that dimension it runs out around 750 l/sec or 6,800 barrels/day. The curve up is consistent with that velocity and a mean density around 0.6 SG. The plume expansion (also visible in other videos) would easily fit in a 8 ft pipe suspended some distance above.

So the upward flow entering a tube 8 feet diameter is filling at around 1/20th of the leak velocity (2.25 m/s = 5 mph) or 0.37 m/s = 0.85 mph.

As said, the gas content will expand in the last part of the assent roughly 100 times volume. So the lake could have flow velocity of 85 mph x 8 feet diameter, due to 'frothing'. Hence I recommended handling before that expansion.

It doesn't matter if the tube is not pressure positive, so long as oil can rise past any flattening or push past any crimping, caused by currents. In doing that, both apply a tensile load down to the anchors.

This extract may be of interest, as to me it indicates, fractions settling out. If so the tube must be smaller to maintain a high enough velocity to carry the heavier fractions.

"Interviewed on Saturday by satellite phone, one researcher aboard the Pelican, Vernon Asper of the University of Southern Mississippi, said the shallowest oil plume the group had detected was at about 2,300 feet, while the deepest was near the seafloor at about 4,200 feet.

"We're trying to map them, but it's a tedious process," Dr. Asper said. "Right now it looks like the oil is moving southwest, not all that rapidly."

He said they had taken water samples from areas that oil had not yet reached, and would compare those with later samples to judge the impact on the chemistry and biology of the ocean.

While they have detected the plumes and their effects with several types of instruments, the researchers are still not sure about their density, nor do they have a very good fix on the dimensions.

Given their size, the plumes cannot possibly be made of pure oil, but more likely consist of fine droplets of oil suspended in a far greater quantity of water, Dr. Joye said. She added that in places, at least, the plumes might be the consistency of a thin salad dressing"

From

34point5. Good article. We should join the club of frustrated men. We haven't heard or seen nothing yet. I shouldn't even be surprised that the BOP is sitting on a cracked base, and the pipe is keeping it from coming out of the hole. 1500 meter pipe can create a serious momentum on its fall. I can't wait for more footage - detailed and uncensored. I had no idea the content of gas has such a proportion. But still I believe it can be dealt with. The collector will need to be something adapted to this. 8 Feet as riser should work. I just hope the roof of the house will not remain too big. On the picture of the gusher, about 20-30 % looks very "white" - that is a hell of a volume. (I suppose that color is the ICEMAKER).

Also this:

I made it a point to not elaborate too much, on how the "floating well" would work, with or without separation of gas. There are other factors in the play, that need to be solved in secret peace... of which we might never know about.

8 feet is something to start with, but critical- most of the tract of the hose must be filled with water too, to keep it open.

No - neither you or Chris are at one with the physics.

Buy some clear plastic tube and some oil and see what happens in the bath when you inject oil into the bottom of the tube?

34,5. Good reaction, but the door is my joker. To stretch to max. diameter or crimp to minimal. Sort of safety. If you provide that all in the top section You are right.

Inventors say BP ignoring their oil spill ideas - Yahoo! News

"Mark Badger, a businessman from Fort Lauderdale, Fla., proposed a series of wide fabric tubes that would connect and stretch to the sea floor. That contraption would contain the oil and allow workers to skim it.

"Think of a giant shower curtain at 5,000 feet that goes to the bottom of the ocean," Badger said.

Badger said the proposal hasn't received much response from BP despite a series of attempts to discuss it with company officials."

Was on TV but I haven't found the vision

That is something similar, you see other people think similar. Only 34.5 our idea is much better.

The shower curtain will leave the heavier particles sinking down and at the end collide with the new feed, what slows down the action and messes up the separation.

With a big blown tube out of PE and a good floating basin, think on something like a big round fuel tank (like they store fuel in) with a set of extended pipes downwards where the hose connects to. On the side of a barge, or in the middle of 2 or 3 barges.

Or just floating with some floating devices next to it.

This is a good separator when the pipes extend deep enough.

Oil, water, gas can be separated through gravity.

The gas can be pumped out of the top - with hoses.

A safety overpressure valve is just a panel that opens with overpressure.

The oil is lower and can be pumped straight into tankers.

The problem is with all the good willing people that the good ideas go to waste with the idiotic ones.

I have asked CNN to look at CR4 post 362 and the comments below.

Today I called the White house with the same question.

I also had contact with the representatives of the State of Florida.

All without result. Our solution is one of the most viable, quick fixes and enormously cheap.

The can scrap a tank, throw it in the water, put the pipe on it and there we go.

NO FURTHER OIL RELEASE ANYMORE.

this is a plan B while all the rest to cap the well can still continue. It hurts, knowing that so many days are wasted already.

That is probably sufficient detail on the top bit - in this space.

Have you seen Freeze the Flow?

The implications of my "link" are not grasped by most - including Mark Badger - and the 'dome guys'.

I think if you/thread contributors to date/CR4, want a shot at this, any further discussion on the physics should be via PM.

Here, I think should now be about getting that shot - as this will work.

34point5 You are right about the machine, but a experienced blower can make a free blow in the air, and in the water when the material can be moved quick, dimensions are really not critical - it doesn't need to be equal in diameter. In Europe the strawberry planters are using 8 - 10 m black PE sheet on the fields. That is probably something similar. Most important is that the roof of the dome opens. Connecting to several pipes gives extra risks that maybe can be avoided. PE is also easy to weld with between 2 hot rollers. The US has the best blowers of the world. I'll check if I can find that Guinness Thing, there we transported the balloon in the air with the wind and ...some other balloons. 1996 Biggest balloon in Belgium. Thanks.

Good description of film making 34point5. I once worked in film making via extrusion for Dupont. The only fly in extruding insitu may be the breaking of the extrusion by dirt entering the resin. This dirt will cause a tear in the process and the need to restart with a clean die. I would suggest extrusion on shore in a more controlled environment and the film taken to the site. Fusion of a torn site can be done and depends on the material or resin used. Maybe a company like Dupont can help in selection. There are some very strong extruded materials that resist tearing like surlyn and I am not sure what is new in this field. It has only been about 40+ years that I worked in films.

Tedlar is very strong.

That oil is going nowhere else than in the hose, that is the shortest way up and the density creates the suction by its own. Sea water 1.2 - crude 0.85? - methane ice also <1. And up we go.

Seen it posted separate under same heading with bigger picture. Who is the artist? GA

GA DVMDSC... _{^{(now I get it..)}}

I think you will have to pump sea water into the cylinder to replace the volume you take out, or the cylinder will collapse, but other than that, it is much better than what is happening now. Even if a hurricane comes along, and currents distort the system, I think it will be easily replaceable. On top of that, if the cylinder gets shredded in the last few hundred feet because of high speed currents, you can still inject dispersants into the cylinder in the lower part, and have it work much better than surface sprayed application.

oh wait, I see you have a water inlet in the bottom.. that might work..

Let's get 'er done!

Chris

I am well aware that there are forces on the wall to deal with. The SG of the liquids is different and there is a flow.

Also once above the sea level that plastic bag will not be able to contain a lot of fluids before it bursts.

I have two possibilities to deal with that part. The door is to let in water from the bottom.

Here are the extremes:

1.you put that pipe in there with nothing else but water

The whole setup will be no more or less than a submerged plastic bag full of water. No tension, but currents apply to the wall.

2. Nothing but crude oil, methane gas and ice

The membrane of the pipe will be pushed to restrain by the surrounding water. The way to deal with this is to balance it out: A. By having lots of water in that same pipe - or make the pipe bigger in diameter. B. With less water, bringing up the pipe above sea level, where it has to be very rigid and need real support, because the weight of the oil pushes on the walls from the inside. To give you an idea: to make the pressure difference between the hose in the water zero, and e.g. when salt water has S.G of 1.2 and the mix a S.G. of e.g. 0.9. The pipe should be a few hundred meters high ( higher than the Eiffel tower) That would require quite a strong pipe and a strong hand to hold it up.

The practical solution is the open door and a considerable big diameter of hose in the water, a small lake should be the best choice. The PE bag pipe will provide the membrane, but pressure differences must be controlled with applying different tricks.

Of course the pressure of the crude in the pipe will also contribute in keeping the pipe open.

The opening of the door, the pressure of the crude, the diameter of the pipe, the capacity pumped out, are the process parameters.

dvmdsc

I just started to catch up on the proposal and seem to like what I see so far. I mentioned to 34point5 that I once worked in film extrusion many years ago and I know that there are some good products to extrude. Surlyn resists tearing even by sharp instruments and is a plastic film. There may even be better films that I am not now aware and could be checked with film experts.

Mechanically if we sent down a ductile steel pipe with a base welded so it will stay out of the LS or would not sink in it, we could extend the pipe several meters above the broken well. We would then anchor a flared skirt that would cover the pipe but not extend to the floor. The bottom would be completely open but the oil/gas would be rising inside the steel tube and then enter the plastic skirt and surlyn tubing along with sea water to the surface. If a lake was artificially built, several tankers could pump the flow at the same time while tugs could keep the sides of the lake taunt. Do the people from BP or coast guard read CR4? If you are reading this thread let us know.