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Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/04/2010 5:45 PM

A long time back there was a discussion on CR4 about how difficult/feasible it was for Lee Harvey Oswald to make his shot.
Some of you may be interested to see this new world record for a sniper shot.
I think it puts the former's shot into context...
Del
(I'm fairly pacifist by nature, so I oppologise if this offends anyones sensibilities, I'm interested in weapons but don't necessarilly endorse the end result...)

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#1

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/04/2010 6:37 PM

wow, not familiar with the L115A3 long-range rifle. wonder want caliber it is......I'll google it.

It something, the second shot probally hit, before they heard the sound of the first shot.

Wonder what their thoughts were....what the hell.....or maybe....Oh $#it

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/04/2010 6:44 PM

From: www.chuckhawks.com/super_338_Mags.htm

8.59mm Titan

Lazzeroni designed the 8.59mm (.338) Titan in 1994. It is based on a very large case that is proprietary to Lazzeroni. This case is rimless bottleneck type with a 30 degree shoulder angle. The rim diameter is .577", the case length is 2.8", and the overall cartridge length is 3.75".

The peculiar metric designations of Lazzeroni rifles and cartridges are based on their groove diameter, rather than the bore diameter measurement typically used by Europeans. Thus a 7mm becomes a 7.21mm, a .300 becomes a 7.82mm, and a .338 becomes an 8.59mm. Regardless of nomenclature, the Titan uses the same .338" bullets as the other super magnums described in this article.

Lazzeroni factory loaded ammunition is available with 185 grain, 200 grain, 225 grain, and 250 grain bullets. The 250 grain bullet is the Swift A-Frame. The approximate MV of this load is 3100 fps and the ME is 5336 ft. lbs. The 400 yard figures are 2379 fps and 3143 ft. lbs. The following trajectory applies: +3.3" at 100 yards, +4" at 200 yards, 0 at 300 yards, and -9.3" at 400 yards. These figures were calculated for the standard conditions used for other factory loaded cartridges.

Lazzeroni claims a somewhat higher velocity and flatter trajectory, but if one reads the fine print on the Lazzeroni ballistics table one discovers that it was calculated for a higher altitude (3000') than standard ballistics tables (1000') in order to take advantage of the thinner air, which offers less drag. Also, Lazzeroni assumes a line of sight 2" above the line of bore, rather than the traditional 1.5", to further flatten the apparent trajectory of their cartridges.

The Titan was designed specifically for shooting heavy game at long range. To capitalize on the performance potential of this cartridge, Lazzeroni rifles in the caliber come with 27" barrels. Lazzeroni rifles and ammunition are neither inexpensive nor thick on the ground.

Calibre8.59 mm
Weight6.8 kg
Length1,300 mm
Muzzle velocity936 m/s
Feed5-round box
Effective range1,100 m plus
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#3

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/04/2010 6:56 PM

Could you interpret this, " Lazzeroni rifles and ammunition are neither inexpensive nor thick on the ground."

There's a good kitty.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/04/2010 8:28 PM

English understatement. Translated this means "F*****g expensive and not many ordinary people have one."

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/04/2010 8:34 PM

OK! Thanks, got it.

I own guns. I can't imagine why I'd want one.

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#17
In reply to #5

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 9:31 AM

Nah, what you need is a Barret 98 Bravo in .338 lapua magnum. That's what the Marine Snipers are using these days, well that and a handheld ballistics computer that combines a GPS, topo map, temp, humidity, barometric pressure and anemometer sensors to calculate the PoA for the sniper based on where the shooter is, where the target is, and what the atmospheric conditions are and what he is shooting. And .338 lapua ammo is much more easily found if rather pricy. It was designed with military sniping in mind.

CheyTac has a system similar to this but they have not been purchased by any military I am aware of yet.

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#6

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/04/2010 10:35 PM

From the links you will see the first two rifles which were purpose designed sniper rifles.

are in a different league than the Mannlicher-carcano.

the shot in question on the thread had near perfect conditions no cross winds etc, the weapon and cartridge gave a very flat trajectory, and the training of the soldier all add to this impressive shot

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/support-weapons/1459.aspx

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn50-e.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5x52mm_Mannlicher-Carcano

The 6.5x52 Carcano is an effective deer cartridge up to 200 m (220 yards), with properly-bulleted ammunition. Its main drawback in military use was that the standard Italian service round had a round-nosed bullet and was highly stable (did not usually tumble unless it hit bone), giving many narrow-channel straight-through wounds.[citation needed] This characteristic is due to the high sectional density of the round (the extreme bullet length compared to its diameter).

Hand loaders should note that the currently available factory ammunition may lack accuracy due to use of a 6.7 mm (.264 in) bullet instead of the 6.8 (.268 in) as originally loaded.[citation needed]

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#7

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/05/2010 8:31 AM

Del

I visited the sniper's nest on a trip to Dallas several years ago standing at the exact spot that Oswald shot from.

It is an easy shot from the perspective of being right there.

I took away from this that for whatever reason, over the years, the shot has been characterised as a difficult one. Just not true.

The motorcade has to come around the corner before proceeding along past the book depository building in these giant limos. This makes it impossible to get up much speed as the distance from the corner to the book building is very short.

As I viewed it my thought was how easy a shot (or three) would that be.

You wouldn't even need a scope but he had one.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/05/2010 9:04 AM

It is an easy shot from the perspective of being right there.
Funnilly enough that was my stance on the subject!
I reasoned that even with the moving target, it was doing little more than slwoly moving up in the sights.
Del

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/05/2010 9:28 AM

it wasn't so much as a difficult shoot, it was the amount of amount of time the shoots took place, which was recorded through a police open radio.

That what was in question and starterd the 2 shooter theory. To shoot, chamber, target and shoot, chamber and target and shoot. This took a skilled marksmen we knew his weapon.

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/05/2010 10:58 AM

True, Oswald was a skilled marksman. He had the advantage in knowing what he needed to do to get off those next shots while the motorcade may not have accelerated quickly enough to get to the underpass where the sniper could no longer target them.

Oswald never would have picked off JFK from a mile away. I guess that seems to be the point.

BTW, some of the shots hit the wrong persons indicating that the second and third shots were indeed rushed.

I forget who first put the second shooter on the knoll.

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#18
In reply to #9

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 9:35 AM

And there was an issue of a tree obstructing his view.

The assassination of Kennedy was declared a conspiracy and that if Lee Harvey Oswald was involved he was not alone and not the only shooter.

He was killed before he could talk.

They closed the case without putting much effort in investigating the crime.

My opinion. Lee Harvey Oswald was not the assassin. I'm am also inclined to believe he was not in possession of that gun.

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 9:57 AM

Presumably you don't shave with Occam's razor?
Del

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#23
In reply to #20

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:23 AM

I don't understand what you mean by that.

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#28
In reply to #23

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:44 AM

'Occams razor', states that all thing being equal, the most obvious simple solution is usually the correct one.
He was actually a good shot...the BBC TV investigation program showed his shooting score cards, I think he was rated as 'marksman' or somesuch.
Del

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 11:02 AM

All US Marines are riflemen first. "Marksman" is about as poorly as you do and be a marine.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:22 AM

Most believe George W. Bush did it.

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#26
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:25 AM

Most what? Barking moonbats?

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:28 AM

No, most cats waving swords while delusional and posting here.

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#19
In reply to #9

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 9:43 AM

Oswald was a well trained shooter, compliments of the United States Marine Corps. This accounts for the proficiency displayed.

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#22
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:22 AM

The people he served with stated he was a mediocre shot at best and he didn't serve his full enlistment so he was still a rookie.

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#24
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:23 AM

didm't he want to defect becasue of an incident with a jeep or something?

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#25
In reply to #22

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:24 AM

And the reason that anyone would believe that you have one ounce of credibility is ???

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#29
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 10:58 AM

I have never spoken to anyone Lee Harvey Oswald served with. There are numerous places to confirm his shooting score of 212, which qualifies him as a 'Sharpshooter'.

True, Oswald did not complete his service, and was released on a 'Hardship/Honorable' discharge in 1959. This status was later changed to 'Undesirable' by the Dep't of the Navy.

As I re-read my post, it sounds as if I may be thumping a drum in suppport of Oswald. This is not the case. I do, however, believe he was fully capable of this horrendous act, on his own.

We I am drifting way off the path of the original thread. Sorry, Del. I'll stop.

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#33
In reply to #7

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 1:05 PM

Is that place open for public viewing?

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 1:19 PM

Yes, the Texas School Book Depository in Dallas Texas is open for visitation.

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#37
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 1:36 PM

What?? So ghosts are allowed???

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#38
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 1:58 PM

Huh? Del, you've lost me....

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#39
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 2:46 PM

Its the language thing...In the UK we'd think a visitation was a haunting or the miraculous appearence of some religious figure.

We'd just say it's open to visits or visitors or for visiting.

Blimey I wish I hadn't opened my big fat mouth now....
Del

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#40
In reply to #39

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 2:51 PM

A wise man once said that ours were two countries separated by a common language...

Of course there are some dialects over there that even your average Brit couldn't understand either....

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#36
In reply to #33

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 1:23 PM

Yes it is as I stated in the post. A museum of history now.

Please do see it if you ever happen to be in Dallas.

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#11

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/05/2010 11:20 AM

But now what about the timing involved?

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#13
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 3:25 AM

The timing isn't at all tight in the Kennedy assasination. I saw a demo on TV of a bloke getting off the required number of rounds in the required time in a very leisurely fashion. Working a bolt isn't that time consuming, and there is only a slight elevation adjustment for each shot. But hey we've had this discussion before...mybe someone can be bothered to link back to it.
Blimey I reckon I cound get off that many arrows from my longbow in the time!
Del

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 7:51 AM

was he able to do a good spread with his hits along with his shots also?

The point I was getting at, is they have to be familiar with their equipment.

As from post #16

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#31
In reply to #13

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 12:27 PM

And then there is the story of the "Magic Bullet" that had to make turns in the air to go from the direction Oswald was shooting from to go through Kennedy's neck then through the friont seat passenger's wrist and leg, then back around to take off a chunk of Kennedy's head to land on the trunk of Kennedy's car.

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#32
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 12:47 PM

That was all explained in the documentary...I think it was that the shot in question was fired after Kennedy had slumped forward or it wasn't the same bullet, or whatever..the whole program was very matter of fact and there was no real mystery or conspiracy to any of it....
No point me blethering on...you'd need to see it yourself.
Del

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#12

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 12:26 AM

40 years ago I took up small bore .22 competition target shooting. My instructor had been a British WW2 commando / sniper and represented Canada in the Olympics for target shooting. I saw him use a modified British Lee Enfield .303 on a 1 mile course using a sand bag and shooting bench put half a dozen rounds in a six to eight inch diameter. (OK, they were custom hand loads.) He was amazingly sensitive to tell tales of wind and would adjust each shot for the slight changes in the conditions.

(I could not hit the target at that range, Period.)

I was always surprised how many rounds of a .303 would key hole. It was not particularily stable.

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#47
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/08/2010 10:00 AM

I had a colleague in the RN in the early 60's and he could put 4 or 5 .303 shots in anyone (person or persons) at distances of over a mile using the old .303 Bren......not single shots I hasten to add, bursts......as some people in Aden found out to their costs......single shots were more difficult he said......short bursts gave you a better chance......according to him.

On Wikipedia, I found this comment, which echos exactly what he always said:-

The Bren had an effective range of around 600 yards (550 m) when fired from a prone position with a bipod. Initial versions of the weapon were sometimes considered too accurate because the cone or pattern of fire was extremely concentrated, resulting in multiple hits on one or two enemies, with other enemy soldiers going untouched. Soldiers often expressed a preference for worn-out barrels in order to spread the cone of fire among several targets. Later versions of the Bren addressed this issue by providing a wider cone of fire.[4]

You can read the above in a great article at:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bren_light_machine_gun

I am using memory for the 4 or 5 shots though, it might have been more, its simply too long ago.....

When I was in the RN it was still in use, very nice to fire with far less recoil than a normal .303 had....you can see that here quite easily:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3o4UY6aRgCs

or here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KA9JP_DHVKM&feature=fvw

Interestingly enough the sights were on the LH side, not over the bore, I forget just how much to the side, but the targets we used were printed with a target to aim at that you could see easily, and a fainter one that was offset to the right, on which you actually scored. The offset was the horizontal difference between the sight and the bore.....really accurate!!! It was probably an inch or so (guessing!)

You can see this quite clearly on one of the pictures here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM6wHknkAPk

It was my favourite and I was gob-smacked when it was redesigned with a straight mag and .762 ammo, I lost all interest in it!!!!

PS. The RN converted far, far later to 7.62 ammo than the British army, middle of the 60's is my best recollection. We all drilled with .303s till at least then.....The Army converted in the 50's as far as I am aware....

In the RN we still used Lanchesters in 1966, a most dangerous and untrustworthy weapon....see here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanchester_SMG

It was so dangerous, walking with it could even set it off, here is a comment from Wikipedia to that effect:-

Manual safety is made in the form of locking cut, made in the receiver, which engages the bolt handle to lock bolt in open (cocked) position. Notoriously susceptible to accidental discharge if the weapon was dropped.

We never carried them loaded for that reason, we stuck a few magazines in our back pockets!!!

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/08/2010 10:55 AM

You're saying the Bren has an effective range of 600yds but this guy claiming to hit targets with the Bren at over a mile, that's 2000yds.

I get the feeling this guy's stories grow as the years go by.

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/08/2010 3:05 PM

Dear Janissaries, you are obviously not familiar with guns at all, you don't really imagine that the bullet suddenly drops on the ground once 601 yards have been covered, do you?

Even .22 LR have been known to kill at over a mile with a "stray" shot, un-aimed etc....

How far the bullet travels (un-aimed) is often quite a long distance, even for pistols....several hundred yards....but accuracy is not good.

The maximum range can be easily 4 or 5 times the "aimed/accurate" range.....

Please do not forget that the modern gun recently in the news was fired at targets well beyond its given range. In fact it was firing 1,000 yards beyond its normal "range"...To quote:-

A BRITISH Army sniper has set a new sharpshooting distance record by killing two Taliban machine gunners in Afghanistan from more than a mile away.

Craig Harrison, a member of the Household Cavalry, killed the insurgents with consecutive shots — even though they were 3,000ft beyond the most effective range of his rifle.

The distance to Harrison's two targets was measured by a GPS system at 8,120ft, or 1.54 miles. The previous record for a sniper kill is 7,972ft, set by a Canadian soldier who shot dead an Al-Qaeda gunman in March 2002.

You can read that here:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/afghanistan/article7113916.ece

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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/08/2010 3:33 PM

Congratulations Andy! You've gone full circle back to the link in the original post!
Have a tin of my finest Tuna....
Del
(whoops it appears to be empty GA btw)

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#51
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/08/2010 6:22 PM

What, an empty can? Its great for plinking though!!!

That was good shooting for that Army sniper......world record!!

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/09/2010 2:42 AM

That brings back memories! The daughter of my instructor was a real Anny Oaklie. Absolutely wicked with a pistol! (Umm, I think I gave away my motivation to take up target shooting!))

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#14

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 4:08 AM

The ART of building super accurate rifle/ammo combinations is evident in Target Shooting circles as some guys just get so much more out of the same equipment as the guy next to him. What makes this sniper AND HIS SPOTTER's (it takes two to tango) effort remarkable is the repetitive result at that range under operational conditions..... ....targets that can shoot back. As a marksman that has some fancy shots to brag about myself, I salute this sniper team big time.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 7:53 AM

Target Shooting circles as some guys just get so much more out of the same equipment as the guy next to him.

Thats sets the difference of being an expert in your trade. A Master Craftsman.

p911

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#35

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 1:22 PM

Hmmm? I never saw a "time" mentioned in the article... just that he did it as fast as he could in succession. Also, I don't think their machine gun was in a motorcade.

I keep waiting for some of the celebrity "psychics" and/or channelers to give us all the strait poop on all the mystery historical events like JFK's assassination. I mean, the information should be right their at their 6th sensory tips.

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#41

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 3:03 PM

Forget JFK, Dow was down 1000 points, half an hour ago. Now, at 14:00, it "recovered" to 530 (down). It's a mad, mad, mad world!

...as I wrote these two lines, it is 414....

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#42
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 3:36 PM

Greece is "greasing" the skids.. How long before all of the socialist states (like the US is becoming) all slip into the same economic black hole? I'd say not long. The world is running out of OPM (Other People's Money) and the house of cards is starting to fall.

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#43
In reply to #41

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 3:43 PM

WOW! Off Topic (Score 100000)!

And I didn't even vote you one!

I would very much like a moderator to tell us about this. Pretty funny, though.

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 3:54 PM

Hah, sorry, I was feeling a little comical... Dow was down 1000 points, but he was down 100,000.

Seriously, though - we can mark comments as off topic if someone forgets to do it on their own, by setting the number manually. Certainly a much better option than deleting the post, I would think :)

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#45
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 4:00 PM

Your comment came just when I wanted to claim the record for the highest "Off Topic" score :-((

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/06/2010 4:03 PM

OK merph. Fair enough.

And, a GA for you! That'll teach you to mark Off Topic!

If you can get another 123,456,788 (plus two) members to do likewise, you might actually get a GA mark here!

By the way, I do think it was pretty funny. It is good to know the new moderation team has a sense of humor.

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#53

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/09/2010 5:21 PM

There were another movie camera going that the CIA ,FBI and Secret Service didn't get that shows CIA and FBI was shooting from cover at John Kennedy in Texas that the Government was going to have their funds reduced and they didn't like that .

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#54

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/09/2010 6:03 PM

Its a bit off topic (I will mark it as such too), but anyone who is interested in such things like this sniper shooting much farther than the gun was designed for, might also be interested in the fact that a British cold war fighter plane, is recorded as being capable of flying higher than the Lockheed U-2 planes.

It is noted here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U2

and here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Lightning

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#55

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/12/2010 3:29 PM

I saw one show/documentary that showed the School Book Depository as the motorcade turned to the street facing it... In those brief seconds you can see that there were at least 3 windows open (on multiple floors) and had people in them... I have not seen this show/documentary in a long time, and don't remember the name, but the sequence it showed as I described was from someone that had that vantage point and had a video camera back in those days, if memory serves me, it was in color.

If he was the 'lone gunman' it makes a bunch of people wonder at his reactions that are recorded on TV before he (Oswald) was killed...

Accuracy is something of it's own accord (for 'arguments sake' we'll say he's 99.99% accurate), when I asked before I should have been extremely specific...

Could 'he' get all the shots (3? 4th that missed?) off in the time indicated by the sources (mostly the "Z"(spelling) film) using the rifle that was found in 'the shooters nest?"

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/12/2010 3:48 PM

Jeez that old timing thing..
There is no problem in the slightest getting those shots off in the time.

"The Commission also laid out several scenarios concerning the timing of the shots, but that the three shots were fired in a time period ranging from approximately 4.8 to in excess of 7 seconds".

It takes less than a second to operate the bolt of a rifle and there is no need to alter one's position significantly. The direction of travel of the motorcade was such that the target would be merely rising slowly in the scope as it receeded.

Even if you take the minimum of 4.8 seconds. That's 2.4 seconds for each shot... yes that's right ! There are only two time intervals between 3 shotsand you only need to work the bolt twice.
I could get off three shots from my longbow in that time! If you start the time from loosing the first arrow.
If you take the maximum of 7 seconds that 3.5 seconds...try watching the second hand of your watch... that's ages.
Del

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#57
In reply to #56

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/13/2010 11:59 AM

I don't know about shooting bolt-action rifles quickly, since I target shoot them, if at all, but I have a .40 automatic, a 9mm automatic, and had a .45 auto (of the old Colt 1911 US military lineage) and with all three I can put the entire magazine in a 4 inch plate at 6 yards in under 10 seconds. And, though the extender I used for the .45 only held 10 rounds, with one "in the spout" for 11, the .40 holds 13+1, and the 9 holds 17+1, so that is some pretty quick shooting with what a lot of people say, for at least the .40 and .45, are unmanageable guns. I would be surprised, since MY accuracy with a lever-action 30-30 is such that I can put all 6 rounds in an inch at 100 yards in under 10 seconds, if someone with a bolt action couldn't do better than that in 7 with only 3 shots.

On the other hand, I've read that the Carcano-Suiza (I think that's what it was) is not a very accurate rifle at best, and that the particular one found in the room Oswald shot from was rusty, and pitted at the muzzle (by far the most critical part, after a straight barrel, for an accurate shot), so that leaves one to wonder how good Oswald had to be to make the shots. OTH, his record as a Marine might not have reflected subsequent improvement in his shooting.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe a bunch of people fell down on the job that day. And I'm inclined to believe it was too many to be accidental. But nothing in that says Oswald was anything other than a "lone shooter", as the Government has been at pains to say all along.

Certainly the "time to get the shots off" doesn't seem to argue against the lone shooter theory.

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#58

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/13/2010 11:43 PM

"A long time back there was a discussion on CR4 about how difficult/feasible it was for Lee Harvey Oswald to make his shot."

The key arguments of the conspiracy theorists were not about distance but about time. They claim that Oswald did not have the skill to fire two accurate shots in the interval shown on the film. There were some who also claimed that the weapon's accuracy was insufficient for the task.

Years ago I bought a 6.5 Carcano to settle the question in my own mind. I found the rifle light, well balanced and easy to load and operate. In particular, the turnbolt mechanism was easy to cycle while holding the weapon on target. I did not take the time to develop the necessary quick-fire capability to verify Oswald's performance, but I did satisfy myself that it was attainable with practice.

I tested the accuracy of the weapon. It was very, very good. I got tight groups with good ammo, even though my rifle was not scoped. The standard 6.5 bullet has a high sectional density, which means that it would tend to hold its velocity longer than more conventional rounds.

The problem was the ammunition. Oswald was supposed to have used Italian surplus ammo, and the Italian ammo I bought and used showed a wide variation in muzzle velocity, some rounds actually falling to the ground a few tens of meters downrange! The rounds that did develop full pressure grouped tightly, but the flyers were really, really bad and quite frequent. This is most likely due to the influence of ambient air, because the peculiar Italian bullet crimp left gaps between the bullet and the case, evenly spaced around the perimeter of the bullet.

Bear in mind, however, that I was making these tests nearly twenty years after the Kennedy assassination, with ammo of about the same vintage as Oswald's, so it had aged nearly two decades since the time Oswald would have used it. That would certainly make a difference in quality and consistency, especially if the rounds I bought had been removed from their original bulk packing years before to separate them into retail lots. Oswald might have had access to rounds kept in their original packing until just prior to sale.

Bottom line: it is not physically impossible for Oswald to have fired those two shots, but it would not have been easy. Comparison to a custom-built sniper weapon is not valid, as the Carcano was a regular issue infantry weapon, with all the compromises that implies.

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 3:13 AM

Great post.
I was't actually comparing the two shots, more adding interest to the post.
Great to see someone who actually will do the test rather than spout second hand theories! Bravo.

Completely off on a tangent, often whilst visiting castles in the UK you will hear people talking about 'arrow slits' where the think the people in the fortress shot their arrows from.
I gently point out that if you raised a 6 foot longbow to the shooting position the top limb would be halfway through the stone ceiling! So they must have been for observation/crossbows/chucking stuff out!
Great to have you on board.
Del

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 5:47 AM

I, too, "GA'ed" you for this one. I've only before heard opinions regarding that rifle. It's nice to see someone test, and explain the results of the testing, to prove/disprove the theory. And, yes, there were some variables not tested (aged rounds versus "fresh" rounds, hand-loads versus factory new loads, etc.) but your discussion of these brings a ray of light to the point, and makes it easier to understand, if not conclude permanently, the arguments.

Thank you.

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#61
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 5:55 AM

I'd have though that the ammo velocity wouldn't have made much difference as it was at relively close range wasn't it? (also a slightly downward trajectory)
I just checked up, it was less than 100 yards, first shot only about 60.
You are hardly going to get any significant droop in trajectory at that range, at rifle bullet velocities even with some variation. Say the good drops an inch and a 'bad' round drops 0.75" that's hardly critical. Those figures are probably waaay pessimistic, but I can't be bothered to look up the muzzle velocity or do the arithmetic.
Del

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 10:09 AM

"I'd have though that the ammo velocity wouldn't have made much difference as it was at relively close range wasn't it? (also a slightly downward trajectory) I just checked up, it was less than 100 yards, first shot only about 60."

Short answer: it would have made a big enough difference. Unless it was pure luck that Oswald hit where he did, he was placing rounds inside a 2" circle from where he aimed them. Consistent muzzle velocity would have been needed to achieve that. Remember, the 6.5 Carcano is not a high-velocity weapon to begin with - not by modern standards, anyway.

Try it sometime. Doesn't have to be a Carcano. Get a rifle that you're familiar with, and some ammo you've used before and have already used in zeroing the rifle. Then carefully disassemble some rounds and remove small amounts of powder before reassembling them. Then fire for group. Even at moderate ranges, you will notice a lot of vertical dispersion.

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#63
In reply to #62

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 10:18 AM

Sad to say Del can't do that. His government doesn't trust the populace with things that go bang. They are afraid the populace just might toss the whole lot out on their ear and they have to protect their phoney-baloney jobs!

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 11:06 AM

No quite true, I do believe that its ONLY pistols that are totally banned in the UK, the same ones that have been used to kill people (and other children!) and commit suicide in the USA by children from 5 years old and up......mow down children in schools etc etc etc......

There was a disturbingly similar case in a British school some years ago that prompted this action if I remember correctly.....I believe it was also the first time too in the UK....the government took it seriously and acted, well done.

Pistols are only meant to kill people, even the hunters that carry a pistol to "finish off" wounded game could at a pinch still use a rifle or even a captive bolt type weapon to do the same job.....they could even have a few specially marked cartridges in their pockets with a reduced load for close work for instance.......

Anyone who maintains that he NEEDS a pistol is a problem......in fact because of the "other Guys" carrying pistols, it has simply got out of hand in the US and some other countries.....and no US government has got the balls up to now to ban pistols completely......

A pistol is far more easily concealed, or brought to aim than rifles and the like......which is a further reason to ban them completely......but I know that in the US many people will still be "Packin'" long after I am gone.......no one can stop it now.....

I compliment the UK for carrying such a measure through.......also I do believe that its life in prison for CARRYING a pistol now......you don't even need to fire it!!! Well done.

Interesting for me at least, the UK is (as far as I am aware) the only country that does not require (or even print at this time, eg. you still can't get one!) an ID card for all its people, therefore I say its still the last "really" free country.....

US (and Germany) citizens THINK they live in a free country.....

Now that should put the (Del) cat amongst the pigeons!!!!!

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#65
In reply to #64

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 12:04 PM

Andy my friend, you are so very wrong on so many levels. but besides your total and complete misunderstanding of the situation of school shootings (Which I recall have happened in Germany as well.) if it were only pistols being banned why is it that the British Olympic shooting team (using customized .22 LR target rifles) were forced to go elsewhere to practice their own sport?

No, ALL guns, not just pistols, are banned in the UK, but somehow the criminals have failed to get that memo, they still seem to be able to get them. But of course they are criminals and are therefore not likely to follow the law anyway. And of course in the UK if you defend yourself in your own home from an attacker you are the one likely to go to prison anyway.

UK gun laws are frankly insane. Next thing you know they'll be putting poor Del in prison for his beloved bows! Then what will he shoot pigeons with?

The gun IS civilization. to paraphrase an essay I've read numerous times written by a former US Marine Corporal, there are only two ways in which you can get me to do something, you can reason with me, or you can force me. But a gun allows me to negate your attempt to force me, regardless if you are a 400 lb bruiser and I a 98 lb female. The gun makes the two equal. Therefore the only thing left is negotiation. Gun deaths occur because someone failed to remember that not all predators walk on four feet and they did not protect themselves or their families from such predators.

Pistols were designed for a specific purpose, that of close quarters self defense. They are frankly far less deadly than many people give them credit for. the likelihood of dying from a gunshot wound from a pistol is something on the order of 30-40%, much lower than that of a rifle or shotgun wound which is closer to 80%. Were that purpose not valid, they would never have been designed.

And school/mall shootings occur because guns are banned there, so they attract people who like the idea of shooting unarmed people. I would argue that the fundamental problem is the mentality of the person, not the tool they use. Tools are inanimate objects that can't do anything by themselves.

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 1:45 PM

Hear HERE!! I like living in Virginia, in the USA, because of SANE gun ownership LAWS (which I do obey, having never, ever, used a gun to harm anyone for any reason, but expect, if it is necessary, to defend my family with it if required). But, truthfully, it is because we ARE a nation with the Right to Keep And Bear Arms that makes me happier to live here than in any other nation possible.

You, sir, have a GA from me (though it probably won't be deemed "PC", after Andy's outburst).

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#69
In reply to #67

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 2:11 PM

Thank you Micah, the cashier's check to the Texas Department of Public Safety for the CHL is going out this weekend.....

Of course they have about a 6 week approval backlog last I heard....

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#66
In reply to #62

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 1:10 PM

Try it sometime. Doesn't have to be a Carcano. Get a rifle that you're familiar with...
LOL.. I'd love to, but I'm in the UK, they don't let us play with such stuff!
Which is why I play with this stuff...just finished it today!

Arrow velocity 165 fps, draw weight 55 pounds @ 24". Ash backed Cherry, cut the timber myself, glued up with old fashioned hide glue.
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#68
In reply to #58

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 2:07 PM

"Oswald was supposed to have used Italian surplus ammo, and the Italian ammo I bought and used..."

Years ago, I was told by a ballistics expert, a professional expert witness, that the surplus Italian military ammunition had a bunch of half-moon shaped pellets pressed together and jacketed. Upon hitting a target, the bullet would fragment. If that was so, then the Parkland Hospital bullet (prisitine after leaving lead in the governor) could not have been surplus ammunition. The observation (not checkable because the records are sealed) that the x-ray of Kennedy's head looked like a "starry sky" would suggest surplus military ammunition. Also, there was a smear of lead on the sidewalk, from a fragment?

1. Was the surplus ammunition you bought of the easy-to-fragment kind?

2. Where did you get it? The post office won't deliver mail-order ammo, will it?

3. Oswald didn't have a car and acted alone, so where in Dallas could he have bought the ammunition?

On the subject of timing, in the British army of 1914, the typical infantryman, using a bolt action Enfield rifle, could deliver 20 well aimed shots a minute, including time to reload. By well-aimed, that's hitting a man-sized target at 300-500 yards. I have read that the all-volunteer Brtitish army, with long term enlistments, put great emphasis on "musketry" and docked the men's pay if they didn't pass the speed and accuracy tests. When the Germans met the British riflemen at Mons, the volume and accuracy of fire convinced the Germans that they were going against machine guns. Of course, when the "old contemptable" regulars were killed off, their replacements were not as fast and accurate. In my father's case -- he enlisted in 1915 -- they didn't have time to teach him to use a rifle; they issued him a pistol and told him to make do. (Of the 6000 men in his "Special Brigade", about 1000 survived the war)

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#70
In reply to #68

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 2:15 PM

The post office won't but Fed Ex and UPS have no such problems. here are a few people that sell mail order ammo, but there are lots of others.

http://www.ableammo.com/

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/default.aspx

http://www.midwayusa.com/

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 2:41 PM

So did Oswald us Fed Ex or UPS? I don't recall that they were common back then, but surely there should have been a record.

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#72
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 2:58 PM

Until 1968, in USA, anyone could buy or sell ammunition or guns. You could order for delivery through the US Mail. Or UPS. No FedEx though.

Doorman, age 10 years, sent by dad to purchase .22 rimfire cartridges (and some smokes) for the camping trip. Uptown to the drugstore, then return home with 5 boxes of shells and four packs of Lucky Strikes.

The acquisition of ammunition was child's play. (Sorry. Had to say it)

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA68, later Chapter 44 of Title 18, US Code) ended the unregulated sale of firearms and ammunition. Until then, the only arms regulated were the automatic rifles (think 'Tommy Gun').

GCA 68 was enacted as a reaction to the assassination. Renounce your US citizenship, no gun. Dishonorable Discharge, no gun. Mental instability, NO GUN.

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#75
In reply to #71

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 3:46 PM

As Doorman said, the restriction by the USPS came about after and as a result of the assasination but that wasn't what you asked. You asked where piolenc got his, which was AFTER the ban went into effect.

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#79
In reply to #75

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/15/2010 1:43 AM

"As Doorman said, the restriction by the USPS came about after and as a result of the assasination but that wasn't what you asked. You asked where piolenc got his, which was AFTER the ban went into effect."

Piolenc "got his" at a licensed gun shop in his home town.

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#73

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 3:00 PM

What madness is this wondering where he bought the ammo???
He'd been all over the place in the months before and you can carry a clip of ammo easy enough, there must be tons of gun shops and anyhow, there are cabs, busses, trains, he could walk, or hire a car, or get someone to drive him. Are you guys really telling me that it was difficult to buy ammo back then?
This is completely bonkers...
It's like saying...he'd starve to death because he didn't have a car..hoe would he buy food...arggh the sky is falling in..Jeez enough with the conspiracy theories.
Face it the Aliens bought him the ammo.
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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 3:43 PM

Back in 1968, as a teenager, I would hitch hike from the city to the range with the rifle on my shoulder. Believe it or not, I had no problems getting rides (or ammo).

Today, out in the country side, someone seen with a rifle is looked at as an unreliable monster! How times change!

Canada has always had restrictions on pistols. You need a permit to own, a permit to transport to the range, and a very hard to get permit to carry and usually for law enforcement duty or security guards.

Automatic weapons are outright banned, unless you are wearing a military uniform.

Many of the pistols are kept in a locked facility at the range.

The bulk of unregistered pistols (and guns) are in the hands of criminals, and they don't care about the law.

Personally I believe a crime committed with a weapon (knife, bow and arrow, guns, etc) should carry mandatory jail sentences.

If I commit suicide with a gun, I will gladly serve the time.

People intent on murder will use baseball bats, rope, boots, fists, chains, kitchen knives, rocks and stones, tire irons, or anything else handy. And that takes care of the majority of the murders, and that is often family related. The hard crime element around here usually targets each other with only minimal collateral damage(and there is an opinion to let them go at it to reduce their numbers). (Three dead following shooting - victims previously known to police.)

The mall shootings are actually a very small statistic. It could as easily be a mall bombing or other terrorist type attack.

And by the way, I believe a broad head arrow will kill its prey faster than the average bullet. Apparently bleeds out faster.

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#76
In reply to #74

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 3:56 PM

In the UK, I can't event hunt with a bow!
I have to shoot rubber critters instead!

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#77
In reply to #76

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/14/2010 4:06 PM

Del, there are some people you should talk to.

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#78
In reply to #77

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/15/2010 1:37 AM

A man with a gun is a citizen. A man without a gun is a subject.

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#81
In reply to #78

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/15/2010 2:11 AM

Although, I like my longbow(s) more than my rifle(s).

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#80
In reply to #76

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/15/2010 2:08 AM

I think George Orwell would have a field day here! (So he missed it by a few years!)

Big Brother has neutered an entire country!

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#82
In reply to #73

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/15/2010 9:18 AM

LOL

Is it true that all guns are now banned in the UK? I thought that it was just pistols, but there again, I don't possess or want to possess any guns neither here nor there....I would just like to know.....something else that I have missed on in the 29 years here.....

I did think that it was only the British Olympic pistol team that flew to Spain at weekends to practise......

I knew that a few US gun Nuts would be upset at my previous comments, par for the course!!! Well they must all live with the results.

A colleague of mine lost his son who found the family pistol and blew his head off at 17 years old in Colorado.....he himself (the father) is now against all guns in the home (and USA). It takes such a shock to get through to many people....he says that himself nowadays.

Yes, there have been some school tragedies here in Germany as well, the Germans are almost as crazy about guns as the US....( do remember that 60% of US Citizens have their ancestors come over from Germany, which is why they have "Angst" as a normal word, its not English, but due to Hollywood, even the Brits knows what it means today!!)

There are Gun shops in every town here and mail order as well.....they also shoot policeman as a hobby as well here.....only the Philippines are/were worse in this respect than the USA & Germany, or at least in the 60's, how it is today I cannot say.....you had to check your gun before ordering a drink in bars over there in my time......

In the USA many years ago, English was chosen against German as the national language by the casting vote of the head of some committee, as it was split 50/50 till then (if I remember correctly), so the US is far more German than many believe....even today.....

I can tell where a film was made (US or UK) just by looking at the surnames of the people who made the film, lots of German surnames = USA......

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#83
In reply to #82

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/15/2010 12:20 PM

Your friend's son was either unschooled in the handling of firearms (which makes it a parental issue), or was suicidal anyway (which is still a parental issue) and if a gun was unavailable he would have found some pills or some other way to end his life. A good friend of mine's daughter tried to kill herself with tylenol and damned near succeeded. She still has some liver damage as a result, all over a boy! My Mother in law who is manic depressive and lives in Canada where handguns are banned tried to kill herself (at various times) with sleeping pills and bleach. Blaming the gun is frankly stupid. It is an inanimate object, it can't do anything by itself. Your friend is blaming the gun in an effort to assuage his guilt over not recognizing his son's depression and dealing with it effectively. If it truly were the gun's fault, should we also ban sleeping pills, tylenol, and bleach as well?

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#84
In reply to #82

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/15/2010 12:51 PM

I think the movie industry is dominated by a lot of those of Jewish descent. Yes there is a lot of German influence here, I'm part German but mostly I'm Lithuanian.

I read in an article that when England Banned private ownership of firearms, they did subversively, first by having people check in their firearms to be checked out for hunting then after that it was complete banning. The article also stated that crime increased 6x since the banning.

Compare that to Switzerland where everyone owns and maintains a firearm and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the World. Switzerland kind of shuts all your arguments down so why doesn't the rest of the world follow suit.

The United States has the 2nd Amendment "The Right to Keep and Bear Arms."

That amendment is there so the Citizens of the United States can protect themselves from a Government that becomes too corrupt to govern them. Much like the situation that occured in Germany in the 1920's to 1940's. Before Hitler rounded up the Jews into Ghettos, he enacted a ban on private ownership of firearms.

Yes we have some stupid people everywhere. Many of these accidents are caused by adults not taking the time to teach their kids to respect firearms.

This is also the case with anything else. If it's not a gun then it's with a car, or a knife, or a chainsaw.

You hear about the bad things that happen but they don't televise the events that take place where an armed citizen protected their family from an intruder with a firearm, you have to subscribe to the American Rifleman to get that information.

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#85
In reply to #82

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/18/2010 10:50 AM

Andy, perhaps this might illuminate things a bit.

http://ace.mu.nu/archives/301626.php

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#86
In reply to #85

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/18/2010 3:28 PM

Not really.......the source looks suspect too.....

Suicides are only one side of the coin (sadly, but they did want to pop their clogs at least), murders are far more relevant (as they did not want to pop their clogs!!!).....

A far better source is UPI to my mind & this is exactly what I was referring to....:-

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2008/04/26/Gun-ownership-correlates-to-gun-deaths/UPI-65011209186884/

This is also not good data I feel:-

http://www.guncite.com/cnngunde.html

You will note that the European countries are added at the bottom, Germany as a reasonable example (and still has problems!!) is over 10 times LESS than the US average....partly because the laws on owning guns are extremely strict here......but they are certainly not perfect, BUT, the laws here do a better job than ANYWHERE in the USA to reducing gun deaths......

Even Norther Ireland with its sectarian wars is far lower in Gun deaths than the USA......now that is bad.....

But the US has ALWAYS suffered with the "NIH syndrome" on just about everything......sadly its your national undoing I am afraid......nothing will change either in the next 200 years or so either.....

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#87
In reply to #86

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/18/2010 9:37 PM
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#88
In reply to #87

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/19/2010 5:34 AM

Its still the same old problems, now you (and others) are comparing state with state, note, AMERICAN State with AMERICAN State.....why? Because when comparing with the rest of the free world, the US is pretty dangerous!!!

Try to compare with other countries to get a better idea of just how bad the murder/gun rate is over most of the USA in comparison to other "enlightened(?)" countries.....

In my previous post I linked to several sources (well respected ones), but as usual, nobody wants to see statistics that don't agree with their comments!!!

Citing comments from the NRA or similar (biased group) is not the way to see a realistic view of the problems.

Better to compare to the rest of the world, that way you have a far wider ranging statistic and believe me, the USA is NOT the worst offender......

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#89
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/19/2010 11:48 AM

The UPI story you cited was a state-by-state comparison. Your other link was the same story... but I did see the comparisons with the rest of the wealthy countries. Different states have different gun laws and a state-by-state comparison is valid. Places like D.C. exemplify this with the high murder rate and strict gun control. The other story correlated an increase of gun sales and a decrease in violent crime across the country... another valid illustration. Yes, there are a lot of guns in the USA. If gun laws were actually enforced, criminals wouldn't have guns to commit a lot of these crimes. If everybody had a gun, crime rates would be nil.

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#90
In reply to #89

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/19/2010 12:48 PM

If everybody had a gun, crime rates would be nil.

Don't deceive yourself......

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#91
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Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/19/2010 1:16 PM

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1719257620070418

I hesitated to post the last reply; I know this is a can of worms. But guns are the great equalizer. It allows a 100lbs person to defend themselves from a 200 lbs bully. It gives the capacity to any trained individual to defend themselves. It is a tool of self-reliance. Self-reliance is a cornerstone ideal in the formation of the USA and most crime comes from people who have abandoned (or never realized) this ideal for preying on others. I live in a county where there is one sheriff deputy on duty in any given time. It is a vast geographic area and response time in an emergency could be hours. Most households have a gun. The violent crime-rate is almost nil. Maybe one homicide every few years in the county. What sets us apart is self-reliance.

On the other hand, our 2nd amendment was established to insure the 1st amendment. It is there to insure the Constitution is not usurped by tyrannical despots.

Yes, gun violence in the USA is excessive, but gun control will not eliminate the violence. I won't pretend to have the solution....

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/21/2010 1:33 AM

I thought gun control in the US was using both hands to keep it steady!

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#93
In reply to #92

Re: Rifle Shooting Accuracy

05/21/2010 7:06 AM

LOL

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