How To Stop The Oil Spill

its hard enought to have a garden hose running while trying to put a spray gun on with out kinking the hose.

btw, thats a good tip about the hairspray

An ols Korean saying:

Anything you are spraying you should not do that in the wind:

That saying

This humble solution I have seen the design for 40 years ago. It was workable back then as it is now. Gotta think Fluid Dynamics, and 9000 PSI or so, When you try Anything outside to force it inside you are going to have an amazing amount of counter acting force.

This simple minded solution is to slowly easily force an object into the flow which impedes the flow only slightly. When it is into position the flow is restricted and the hidden channel for the flow is exposed to let the flow continue but controlled in the new channel made for it.

But I am an Aspiring Engineer and probably I do not understand the problem?

I like the tip about the hair spray, but the scuba diver that goes down to put the rubber bladder in has to make sure he puts it in and pulls his hand out quickly before the thing inflates!

diver won't even get close.

Not even if he uses hair spray?

1. Get a thick walled rubber bladder with an air valve on it

one inner tube....check

2. Insert it several feet into the pipe that is spewing the oil

one long stick.......check

3. Inflate the bladder so that it plugs the pipe

half mile from shore and 100 yards from a kwik trip.......check

4. Done

ok, I worked out the details, someone else can take it from here.

This is in my opinion a good system to shoot rubber balls into the water, that will ex- pand or - plode there. At those pressure levels, some steel balls or cylinders are even expanding - they are used in high strength hydraulic couplings. Oil is very slippery too, rubber and hydrocarbons not a preferable match either. If you can get it there it might work for a (little) while.

All I keep envisioning is an upside down, metal, spring loaded umbrella. Make it heavy enough to sink through the escaping oil and attach it to a cable from above. Lower it into the pipe, once it breaches the bottom of the pipe into the reservoir below, the umbrella will deploy, reverse the cable and pull up until resistance is felt. Keep upward pressure on cable, fill pipe with debris, mud, concrete, etc. I've got several variations on this, including using a threaded screw to open the umbrella and not going all the way to the bottom of the pipe. Stop it somewhere in the pipe, turn cable from above to engage screw, continue until ample pressure has been achieved against the walls of the pipe to squelch oil flow.

They will be able to reduce the flow intensely with such a device. In one of the posts I joked it in with the umbrella of Mary Poppins. If the pipe extends lower than the soil/rock this can work if the umbrella can withstand the pressure and blocks the pipe enough. I don't expect it to seal completely but it could be worth a try. A very heavy umbrella. If designed well.

Something similar was suggested by a young professor Alia Sabur.

It is under advisement at this stage by BP.

I think they are trying to plug it from the wrong end. I know you guys get it, but just to expound a little. If a dime sized hole were drilled through the base of the hoover dam, trying to plug it on the outside would be damn near impossible, however, placing a half dollar on the inside would probably do the trick. I'm going to continue thinking, somehow this thing has to be stopped, and I wouldn't be surprised if the ultimate answer came from cr4, I can only speak for myself, but getting credit is not on my agenda and I think the same can be said for many others here. One guy was worried about patent rights.......Please, lets get this thing stopped....you can worry about getting rich or getting on Oprah later!

The Mutt & Jeff part is management - the engineers are among the best and brightest. I fully agree that they understand the problem like no outsider possibly can. Some of the suggestions are really funny - and I don't mean the ones writtent as a joke either.

I agree with you on most of that, but no way am I volunteering to mop up crude oil with the PPE they're providing now.

Obama is trying to work the problem, making sure to look like he's working the problem, without taking ownership of the problem. Can't blame him on that last point, because there is literally no good solution.

Hmm, I wonder if someone has suggested an expanding foam missile or bullet yet. :) What would happen if you pumped about 10,000 rounds of 30mm into that pipe...

Obama is trying to work the problem, making sure to look like he's working the problem, without taking ownership of the problem. Can't blame him on that last point, because there is literally no good solution.

That is an unfortunate leadership quality. When a precedence is set like that, what will happen is that it was no ones fault.

Our misfortune is that Obama is a lawyer, politician and community organizer. He has never been in a position where leadership in industry, the military or anything else has been a requirement.

True enough, there are are probably lots of things that we don't have a clue about. It wouldn't be the first time a viable solution to a problem came from outside of a particular industry though. What really amazes me is the fact, (which is becoming more and more obvious),that these guys, seemingly, had never even stopped to consider what they would do in this situation. Again, I'm no expert, but it seems that by running computer models on this and various other catastrophic failures, that some sort of contingency plan would have been in place. Hell, when I was back in the Navy working in the engine room on a ship, we continuously ran drills for all kinds of bad things, from fire to chemical attack, and if one of those things happened, we had to be able to move fast and know exactly what to do. Sorry, I'm rambling. I hope they find a solution soon.

good thinking... ga.

I think you have an idea that can be used to create technology that in the future can be a different type of bop.

Chris

I'm sure they will reply as soon as they stop laughing!

I thought of the same thing. Actually a long rubber/plastic bung that would expand when a screw is tightened. It would need to expand in 2 stages, 1st stage is to drive pins into the wall of the pipe, 2nd stage is the actual expansion of the bung. Also, how about drilling a new well? This should release the pressure. I'd imagine that could take time but with no solid solution in sight it can't hurt to start. I'm curious to know just how big that well of oil is and what is the driving force behind the pressure (ocean pushing down on well?)

They are drilling relief wells. I think the problem with plastic is that, whatever it is would have to be heavy enough to overcome the oil and gas coming out, which, from what I understand is fairly low pressure.

If they can get it in the hole why not just use tapered pipe. From a platform above lower a string of tapered casing at the bottom. When it gets close to the well head connect up suction pumps to draw at the bottom to reduce the force of the oil stream. With UV stab it in. Then use pile driver to force the taper to seal.

How about duct tape isn't there a 1001 uses?

Now make it 1002.

I am sure that some of you appreciate that pushing things into this pipe would be smilier to restraining a bullet into the muzzle of a gun after it was fired, not an inconsiderable feat.

They do have a very complex problem to fix and beating them over the head at this time is not the best approach to help, surly the recriminations will come later. One thing for sure this will alter methods of deep water drilling in the futer, this problem should never have happened.

İ remember well when we would have problems in the iron ore processing plants and the owner would panic, calling for help. The help you received from anyone not part of the same industry only took up more of your time but gave zero assistance. The people in the same industry we already knew and would be discussing the situation with.

I am absolutely sure that the Engineers from BP are logging into CR4 everyday and just laughing their heads off at the stupid ideas that are being proposed for this problem.

They are the experts and no one here, no matter how well intended, has the slighest clue on what is needed or what is actually the real situation.

Stop wasting BP's time by phoning in with stupid ideas, stop wasting space on the internet and stop saying that it's my fault.

If GW was still in power I am sure that we would have bombed the sh1t out of the pipe by now, made the situation worse and then blamed the CIA - or am I getting different stories mixed up .

rgds Barack

"I am absolutely sure that the Engineers from BP are logging into CR4 everyday and just laughing their heads off at the stupid ideas that are being proposed for this problem."

They probably don't have the time.

It's becoming readily apparent that there are no experts at plugging oil leaks a mile below the surface of the ocean. If there were, there would be no leak and this entire thread would not exist.

It's becoming readily apparent that there are no experts at plugging oil leaks a mile below the surface of the ocean.

Really, how many deep water oil leak blowout specialist do you think are experts at this. When all is said and done, a book can be written about this experience.

Just like Tocoma Narrows Bridge.

p911

I don't know if you noticed, but this wasn't a random post. I was responding to the guest that was saying that everyone on cr4 is stupid and no good ideas will ever come from here.

The dictionary has a slightly different definition of expert:

expert |ˈekˌspərt|

noun

a person who has a comprehensive and authoritative knowledge of or skill in a particular area : experts in child development | a financial expert.

In the example given above, you have no reasonable expectation for any expert in child development to guarantee that your child will develop correctly.

Therefore, it is unreasonable to assume that just because one is an expert that they can always solve every problem that lies in their domain.

While your statement is worth a chuckle, it is a bit of a fallacy. ;-)

Most of you folks don't have a clue as to the physics involved nor the problems faced with attempting to put something INTO the pipe opening! It's a mile down! The oil is rushing out at a VERY HIGH FLOW RATE and at VERY HIGH PRESSURE. Have you ever tried to push something into a water hose? That's only at 40 - 60 psig. The well is seeing 5,000 to 10,000 psig!

Seriously, guys...

This is entertaining to say the least.

Check comments 1,2,11,14,16,19,23 & 24 for our thoughts on the thing.

I think that diesel engine injectors operate at 2,000 psi, so what about using a huge number of commandeered diesel injector mechanisms, to force oil/seawater or whatever will go through the nozzles, back down the hole?

(Blocked injectors?)

Could it be this simple?

S.

U.K.

No!

I once saw the damage to the hand of a diesel mechanic who attempted to block the squirt from a injector with his thumb. (really dumb)

did they save his thumb or hand to live to tell about it.

How about a 400 ton slightly tapered metal bullet (steel + lead inside?) . Held above the open hole a short distance of say 20 ft and dropped into the hole to plug it. This assumes 2000 psi and a 12 inch wide hole. I don`t know what shape the hole in the christmas tree is like but 400 tons of downward force should stop the leak if we have access to the bore tube. The bottom could be tapered to a few inches to guide it in and the top could be substantially wider to give most of the weight so the bullet could be as short as say 100 ft long. A fine taper at the top end would ensure a tight fit. Am I mad or could it work?

I've seen current figures for the well head differential pressure of about 6,727 psi with a 21" diameter pipe, you are talking about 2,330,327 pounds or 1,165 tons of pressure to cap.

The differential pressure is the difference between the ambient sea pressure at depth of about 5,000 feet (2,272 psi) and the absolute well head pressure of 9,000 psi.

2,330,327 pounds cross section area is correct if 6,727 psi is accurate.

IMHO, there is at least that much political BS floating about already.

Would that be considered untapped biofuel?

I work with a gas company. If we have a cut on steel and there is no valve nearby we can physically pinch the pipe closed with hydraulic equipment. Is this not possible on this particular pipe?

I guess not. See my post #33. Can you deal with that kind of pipe diameter and pressure?

No we cant. With that large a dia. and the pressure the pipe would probably split while trying to pinch it.

Anonymous Hero is pretty darn close. The actual depth is 4993 feet, so the WATER pressure is approx. 2,336 psi. The Well Head Pressure coming out of the pipe is approx. 9,000 psi. I work with pressures up to 10,000 psi daily. Many of you have no idea what kind of equipment is needed for these systems, much less how difficult it is to operate remotely from almost a mile away. The flow rate is approx. 730 gallons per minute at 9,000 psi. Phenomenal!

Wow, 10K psi. Not much room for error there. If I may ask, what do you do?

The first series of hydraulic rescue tools (Think Hurst Jaws of Life) operated at 5,000 psi. The later designs have been required to do more difficult work. This has led to most of the rescue tool manufacturers to go to 10,500 psi. The extra 500 psi helps to keep the hoses from the tool manufacturers only.

I am at a NASA Facility where we test rocket engines of various types - originally the F1 & J2 for the Apollo Program, the the Space Shuttle Main Engines, now the J2x and some others for satellite launches. We produce high-pressure air, helium, nitrogen, and hydrogen at up to 10,000 psig.

Muzzle velocity of the A-10's GAU-8 is 3500fps (1067 m/s), with bullet mass 15 oz (425g). I could calculate momentum, but don't know how to consider viscosity, flow rate and fluid momentum: I'm software not mechanical.

Could we prepare an underwater-capable GAU-8 with 50,000 rounds and "junk shot" the hole that way, or are the forces we're talking about here on a part with a tank busting gun? (Actual numbers are not necessary if the answer is trivial and/or highly confident.)

Keep in mind the density of saltwater is about 805 times as dense as air at sea level! SO, your 3500 ft/sec would become negligible and going against a high flowrate.

This I know..that in my tightest situation, working on problems that was left to me to solve in electronics, welding, fabricating, deisel engine repair, power production and maintaince of every kind you could think,when the problem was the worst and I was exhausted and tried everything I knew possible, up walked a farmer, a child, a little ole lady and said,"we had a problem like this and we-----", or my daddy always showed me this ---", or why don't you bend this over here and push that there--", It was not the expert, or the scholar, or the trained engineer, but the man that worked on the KISS program, or been in like situations or proceeded to think from a different direction. to many times we get to involved in the problem we loose contact with simplicity...I can see if they can cut the pipe at 5000 feet to thread a bladder into the existing pipe should not be a problem, using the wells own pressure to expand the bladder...The experts are not fixing the problem, this is a no brainer,..Jim

this is a no brainer,..

Jim, I cringe when people say that, no matter from an expert, or man off the street.

p911

And a "no-brainer" problem can be messed up even further by a no-brainer answer or person.

Agreed 100%! That is something no one should say. It is an insult to everyone working on the problem. Just because Hayward & Suttles seem to be brain dead does not mean the entire BP staff is!

and the answer to that is in the answer itself....no brainer

Just shove all the money they're spending on PR commercials into the pipe. That'll stop it!

Wow this is starting to remind me of all of the Nasa and military folks sitting around the table giving opnions in the movie armageddon.

This is doable but don't use air--- use hydraulic fluid and high pressure positive displacement pump to push the bladder open. The bladder could be contained in a pipe insertion tool when put down the well hole. Don't worry BP will not be able to figure it out until the entire oil industry is under government control.

In this is the seeds of the BHO revolution, no crisis should be left to go to waste. Only government control of the oil industry will stop this from happening in the future. No oil will be drilled off shore. The US economy will continue to collapse and jobs will continue to be lost. It is the BHO template for takeover of the nasty capitalist republic of America. Hi Ho, Hi Ho off we go to the American road to serfdom by BHO.

I was reading somewhere that the real problem is that the well pipe is fractured below the sea floor. How deep or bad, I don't know.

Capping the pipe is perhaps not going to work.

If that is the case they will only be able to fix the problem when the intersecting holes are drilled, as they probably know this, what is happening on top of the BOP is just a stop gap and a publicity scheme.

I did here some where that there is several 100s ft of mud at the sea bed if so presumably a fractured casing would leak a fair amount of oil which would be coming up to the sea bed in different places. Some oceanologist did mention there were underwater plumes so the oil is not coming up in one area.

It appears to be worse than that, much worse. We are looking at the well pipe being fractured or damaged 1,000 feet below the sea bed!

Link to article here

This may not even be stoppable, but I am not ready to say we should give up.

For us, we can only speculate because we just don't have the data that BP is privy to.

That looks really bad, the drill string must have buckled and damaged the casing when it blew out.

It looks as though there will be 2 more months of leakage and your government had better step up surface containment as much as possible or the damage to the coast will be horrendous long term. Just hope to god that the storms do not bring any further damage.

Don't worry. Obama is going to deliver a speech and he has already assembled a team of prosecutors to handle the situation.

And the "should haves" and finger pointing begins

Mainly by the 'know nots' and 'talk a lots'

are they not one.

sounds like some managers I knew, when there was a problem you could not find them, and after the lead-men got the project going and the problems worked out, they (the management) shows up and says enthusiastically, "Come on, Whats the problem? Lets get going here."

To keep the thread out of politics as much as possible, are there any technical or managerial steps the federal government can do that would be effective? Short of mobilizing surface assets and massive infusions of clean-up manpower to try to clean up, I can think of nothing.

I would think that one of the options would be to freeze the assets of BP. If nothing else, it would get BP's attention.

"If you want it done right, you need to do it yourself."

Mobilize the national guard in as many states as needed. Put the NG on Coast Guard Cutters and direct operations from the cutters to the contracted fishermen in smaller boars. Some kind of centralized tanker system to transfer collected oil to. Just my thoughts.

I would think that one of the options would be to freeze the assets of BP. If nothing else, it would get BP's attention

That would a bad idea, They need that to keep the business going, too many jobs. count on BP.

Not to shut them down, just to let them know that if they do not act responsibly, that there will be means in place to force them to do the responsible thing. Do you think that BP is trying to move money to other areas that will not be accessible in future lawsuits?

My point is BP employs alot of people, Tax paying people. Shutting them down would burden an already a government that is not pulling in enough taxes to cover itself.

For what it's worth: A Philippine guy told around some islands where they seem to have spills on a regular base, small row boats are used to skim the oil from the surface. They make some separation by hand, like you get the the stuff in eggs separated. At the end of the day, the bucket is full and they make a few dollars with it? (Yoke and white) Some seem to use the crude there.

in the old days it was used for a variety of building products.. to seal ships, act as morter between bricks, fix leaky roofs, etc...

"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." -- Walt Disney

It appears to be worse than that, much worse. We are looking at the well pipe being fractured or damaged 1,000 feet below the sea bed!

And the hits just keep on rolling. We might get to see an undersea nuke after all. The only solution could be draining the oil deposit as quickly as possible. That could take years.

There was talk on NPR about what would happen if the reserve drained out rapidly. The guest said the ocean floor had a greater chance of caving in and the sea levels rising, damaging the coast line and driving the oil further up the Delta. They said a gradual replacement of the oil with sea water needs to take place to prevent this. It could be more smoke and mirrors.

The guest said the ocean floor had a greater chance of caving in and the sea levels rising, damaging the coast line and driving the oil further up the Delta.

Huh. So the ocean floor collapses into a void, and this would raise sea level? Maybe in a tsunami event - which would be bad enough, but I don't see how it could be permanent.

The oil deposit can't be more than a miniscule fraction of the water volume of the Gulf of Mexico.

I just remember them giving it as one of the reasons they didn't want to rapidly deplete the reserve.

The main land isn't that far away. I would guess a "tsunami" type event could have a severe affect on any number of coastal cities and towns around the gulf some of which are already below sea level (i.e. New Orleans).

Just pointing out a possible con.

I have no clue how big the reserve is, that's something the oil people would know and I'm sure they're not telling.

Just some clown that needed to say something on NPR I suppose.

Could be. They do seem to have a pretty could track record.

One of NPR "clowns" did pointed out that BP was incorrect about the amount of oil coming out the professor from Purdue. A full week before anyother media

Another one point out that the casing below ground was damage several weeks ago and now BP and the rest of the news media is finally saying that it is damaged.

I'd rather listen to NPR's clowns then any of they other national media's.

The amount has been in question since day 1. Anyone I have read expected BP was lowballing it for legal reasons. Much of what happens and is happening down there are best guesses by the best minds in the business - sometimes right and mostly wrong. BP really lacks communication and PR skills - One thing they don't understand is that in American culture (and many are Americans) you are better to 'own up' 'accept the blame' and go on.

Agree.

It's like the still think they can tell us their verson, when whats going on is right out in the open.

The only solution could be draining the oil deposit as quickly as possible. That could take years.

But under $1.00/gal for gas.

There are plastic tubes used for silage (and probably other stuff) available. They are eight foot or more in diameter, probably available in large rolls. If such a tube could be placed over the pipe and held down, the gas and oil would shoot up inside it to the surface, where it could be collected in a large (pool liner) collector for pumps to suck up into ships.

Collecting the methane could be done with another (pool liner) dome over the collector to direct the methane to a flare.

I sure am glad this is not my fault.

This idea has been posted in the month of April and is still in the 36.000 applications. To give it more attention- the house of the rising oil - mentioned the same, only it could function far before the riser has been cut. The 8 foot size has also been mentioned in the posts - good thought.

some info from BP here:

http://www.bp.com/bodycopyarticle.do?categoryId=1&contentId=7052055

I hope to God that Lindsey Williams is WRONG.

listen to his interview by Alex Jones. Basically, he's saying:

1. BP has struck something more than oil.

2. the casing and well bore is really damaged, evidenced by oil plumes observed 20 miles away from ground zero, proving that oil is seeping through fissures in the ground.

3. the oil is the least of our concern, because what is escaping along with the gusher are highly toxic gases, which have been confirmed by the EPA, and are the main reasons for the illnesses people along the coast are experiencing.

has BP opened Pandora's box?

pray, America, pray world!

I doubt that but they certainly got the loonies out of the woodwork!

EACH AND EVERY

DAY

I PRAY

WITH YOU

THAT THIS RELIEF WELL

IS NOT BECOMING

GUSHER NUMBER TWO

technically it can when the reservoir pressure exceeds 760.8 bar.

Thats exactly the idea I had. The nitrogen tanks we use to charge our accumulator bladders use 6000 psi more than enough

In the medical field, when accessing an artery or vein, in this case definately an artery, we use a sheath as a way of introducing catheters and wire to repair damage or to open up arteries that have become narrowed or totally occluded. The sheath totally obstructs the hole in the artery. It has a valve on the out side to permit flushing. It can be opened or closed.