40 W Fluorescent Light Tube Energy Consumption

Talked to a buddy that is a lighting contractor, he said to go about it this way.

People like this tennant will not pay any attention to the numbers you present them.

Have your friend explain that the lights that stay on are for security reasons.

If the tennant still complains, they could be held at fault for violating the owners' insurance carrier's regulations.

Most times when lights are rigged this way it is for security and is required by some insurance companies.

Already tried that. I didn't think to use the insurance angle, though. When I suggested that they were for security, that made no difference to the kid I was talking to.

Thanks.

Get him to write/sign a letter accepting the loss of security with the lights off.

Remove fuses open links till all are off.

Then go and steal all his stuff and sell it!!

Then tell him the insurance was void because of his written request!!

So Lyn,

..........How many lights are there?

Didn't count them all. Would guess about 50 total. How many are on all the time? Two. But remember, the building has skylights and needs no lights during the day.

Fluorescent lights require a ballast which has a non-negligible power consumption, so you should increase your figure by 20%~25% (I'm guessing such a disastrous installation where you can't even tell what wire leads where will use the cheap old fashioned kind of electromagnetic ballasts).

On the other hand:

Energy efficiency most basic rules state that if a power consumption isn't needed, then it MUST be switched off, regardless of how insignificant it might seem. For instance, 1 light bulbs switched on 24 hours a day 365 days a year has the same annual consumption as 4 light bulbs working only weekdays, eight hours a day.

My personal opinion is that:

1. an electrical installation where you do not know what each breaker feeds is a potencial menace.

2. 150$ for a manlift to correct a problem that's the owner's responsibility doesn't seem much ... does this friend of yours have a nephew by the name of Donald Duck????

3. shooting down or by any other means breaking the tubes is a no-no due to contamination (phosphor, mercury ... you name it)

Obviously if these lights are left on for security reasons, then they are serving a purpose and thus their usage is fully justified: if the tennant doesn't like this he is free to go any other place.

I'm also assuming there are a significant amount of light bulbs left on ... how many lighs are there in total and how many are left on 24/24???

Oh, so much is said on this blog! Dear friends, if 40W is printed on the "tube"; I bet actual consumption will be more than that (5 to 8 watts more depending on ballast quality/ type). Better to measure actual power consumption.

Pardon me if i am wrong but 40 watts is the power consumption of the tube, the light output is not up to question

Is there no way to visually trace the lighting circuit conduit back to the supply panel?

Can you utilize a fox and hound http://www.lashen.com/vendors/triplett/fox_hound.asp to trace the circuit back to the supply panel?

Worst case scenario, buy a BB or pellet gun http://www.airgunwarehouseinc.com/ . You can disable the lamps and not damage the roof.

By the way, how high is the ceiling?

Is there no way to visually trace the lighting circuit conduit back to the supply panel?

All the rest of the lights are controlled by a wall switch. This one circuit must go directly into the 200 AMP box.

Can you utilize a fox and hound http://www.lashen.com/vendors/triplett/fox_hound.asp to trace the circuit back to the supply panel? Yes, but that requires a man lift to get to the light.

Worst case scenario, buy a BB or pellet gun http://www.airgunwarehouseinc.com/ . You can disable the lamps and not damage the roof. Long pole.

By the way, how high is the ceiling? Lights are about 20-25 feet and about another 6 feet to ceiling

For perhaps less than $100 plus labor, you could have an electrician install a motion sensor on the 'always on' lights, so they go on when motion is detected and go off after a period of time when no motion is detected. This would satisfy any security requirements and it should satisfy the tenants desire that the lights be turned off.

The tenant can pay this cost and deduct it from one month's rent.

You're right. Except that a lift adds $150.00. My electrician charges $85.00USD/hour which isn't bad.

All else failing, I'll just have him pull the lights out.

I'm just trying to save my friend some money.

Thanks.

Well, wouldnt the same kid complain that the light is always on? "cause anytime he gets in there to look at it it will be coming on!

Gotta tell him to wait and stand still to see if its going out again!

Afternoon lynlynch.

This is sort of implied as 'Yes' in your OP, but I will ask anyway:

If these lamps are out, will the remaining fixtures provide enough lite for operation of the business?

I was going to suggest a BB gun as well, but could find one in neither the Kris/Dell catalog not the LynDoor^® Industries catalog.

Hi Partner,

That's the rub. The warehouse area is nicely equipped with skylights and needs no lighting at all during the day.

We'll have to work on the product catagory deficiency.

"All the rest of the lights are controlled by a wall switch. This one circuit must go directly into the 200 AMP box."

Can't your leccy disconnect that one circuit?

Sorry if it's an inappropriate suggestion, I'm not a leccy myself so I don't know how feasible it is legal-wise or safety-wise.

If it is very important to the customer, then he would surely be willing to work with you on finding a solution. Schedule a time, perhaps at night, and flip breakers until you find the one for the security lighting. The next day you can have your electrician install a 24 hour timer next to the breaker panel to automatically turn the lights on at night.

First, if the only cost was the operating cost of the lamps you could do a deduction for the daylight hour expenses for these security lights. But fluorescent lamps fail more often from the ON/OFF cycling than from from hours ON. So by doing any automatic or manual cycling of these lamps will require more frequent renting of a man-lift to reach these bulbs.

Second, this renter has already signed a contract. I'm certain that this contract puts the responsibility for building structure related maintenance in the realm of the owner not the renter. If and only if the renter is willing to renegotiate the terms of this rental contract would I consider providing a means to turn these lights off. In the renegociation I would insist that the renter assumes responsibility for all maintenance expenses related to these lights. I would also dramatically raise the rent. For the property owner cannot shirk his liability to the town ordinances and safety to his neighbor's property that the maintenance (ballast fire) and operation of these lights (criminal acts) provide. The owner will require to purchase additional insurance to cover his ass for a beligerent renter.

Yeah, that might be the correct amount of pseudo-engineering/law to get the renter to recognize that he does not own the building. Oh, if he is willing to pay the extra money, expect there to be some outrageous parties in this warehouse from time to time.

Lyn, you may be missing something. the tenant may want the lights out, not because of the light bill, which will be miniscule, but because he doesn't want any illegal activity (drugs or illegals or both) being visible at night.... You could probably prove that the cost is under 5 bucks a month, and you could even get the rent reduced by that much and the tenant wouldn't budge. I smell something and it smells like a rat....

If this guys is a landscaper he might need true dark for plants that use length-of-day as a bio clock.

If he was growing marijuana he would want 5000+ footcandles 24/7, so that is not it.

I was thinking storage/warehousing, not growth.

There are no windows in the warehouse and you can drive vehicles inside if you want to unload cargo unseen.

They aren't growing pot here.

The rent reduction will be proposed.

But with the lights on, when the OH doors are opened, bystanders might see what was going on...

At the risk seeming silly, how does the power get to the suspended lights?

Attempt to short out the tubes contacts and pop the breaker

"how does the power get to the suspended lights?"

EMT out of wall switch, to ceiling J-box, then flexible conduit down to light.

"Attempt to short out the tubes contacts and pop the breaker "

Or, shoot tubes with BB gun, not requiring man lift expense.

Try to avoid Mercury contamination, the client may claim the Mercury damaged the inventory; a hazmat clean-up isn't cost effective.

You tell guy that the power needs to be secured for the work to be done end of story.

From azeeco's magnetic energy device!

If the business is not 24 hours get him to shut everything down turn off computers etc of so the only thing going is the lights. Read the meter wait for an hour read the meter. Multiply by 24 hours and you have your usage for a 24 hour period. you can then do what ever you want with the figures and even a landscaper should be able to follow the logic. You can either discount the bill, tell him he is being ridiculous or compare the price against the hire of an elevated work platform

If the cost of running the lamps could be estimated to mutual agreement, would your friend be willing to knock the cost of running them off the rent?

Depending on how many lamps there are and how long the tenancy runs, it may be cheaper than hiring a cherry-picker (or whatever) + someone to do the work.

"If the cost of running the lamps could be estimated"

Hence, my OP. Where can I find simple consumption data to show mower guy that he's talking about pennies per day.

We're talking about two 4 foot tubes, total.

If I were charging for my time, the 20 minute visit yesterday would pay for a year's worth of electricity to run the lights.

Correcting post #2 to take into account ballast consumption and number of lamps, we're talking about 7.2 $/month ... or 24 cents a day. Please excuse my first post, I assumed a much larger amount of lamps being left on ...

With the new info of only 2 tubes on 24/7, I'd agree that these are necessary for warehouse safety/security reasons and IMHO the cost is reasonable and should be acceptable to the tenant.

I leave 2 compact FL (13W) on 24/7 at home for those reasons.

Hi Lynlynch

2 4ft tubes lets say they are 36 watt, so that 2 x 0.036 x 24 x 7 = 12.096 kW per week.

Not sure what you pay per kW where you are but the cost of running these lights is probally only a couple of dollars a week.

Obvisouly there are more lights in this wharehouse that are controlled by a switch, I would suggest that it is possible that the lights that are on all the time are on the same circuit as the rest of the lights, so using a clipon ammeter find out what circuit breaker or fuse is controling the other lights, then switch this circuit breaker off and see if the 24/7 lights go out. If they do then have a look at the switch that is controling the other lights and you will probally find that the 24/7 lights are wired into the line (supply) side of this switch, then simply remove the 24/7 light feed from the line side of the switch to the load side of switch. Or even better add in another switch module and switch these lights on the new switch, that way the tennant can decide if he wants the lights on at night or off. I hope this is of help.

My the force be with you!

Cheers

Joe

I would have to say that whoever wired in this light circuit in the first place did not give it a lot of thought, why would you require lights on in the day time, when you have skylights? Why didnt he label the Switch Board.

I don't think you should disconnect, remove, shoot out or cut the power supply on these 2 light tubes, until you check with the building code section of the county, state or underwriter of the insurance and also check with the fire and police dept..

I would imagine there has to be safety lighting on at all times for safety reasons as a minimum. I know that these are requirements in some areas and that is the reason they do not have switches or cut offs.

If this is the case then your landscaping friends have to put up with it. And by the way I don't think florescent light is any good for growing anything anyway other than collecting bugs in the cover.

I'm not aware of any requirements for "safety/security" lighting, but I'll check on Monday. Our municipal offices are closed on Friday.

Thanks.

These lights , most likely , were designed to be left on to satisfy the "egress illumination" requirements of your state building code and as the owner of the building he should not have them disabled for the tenant.

I am not sure what code Arizona has adopted. If it is the IBC , look in section 1006 Means of egress illumination.

He can show the tenant where the main breaker is in the panel. although turning off the main breaker may not immediately turn off the lights if they have battery backup.

now you need calculations on how much does it cost to recharge the batteries for the backup.

I've seen inexpensive solar-powered security lights.I use them in my small facility. Not sure how they'd work in a warehouse.

Bingo! Thanks LAA_Lucke, that's exactly what I've been looking for. At least with this chart I can bring everyone to a simple conclusion about the real costs of operation.

Then my friend and the renter can negotiate the resolution. Based on this negotiation, I either call the electrician, or just forget about the whole affair.

Thanks again.

I'll report the outcome to the group.

As you know, a fluorescent lights do not connect directly to the line like a light bulb, but are run by a ballast transformer. The ballast has the amps and volts written on it. I don't have a 2 light f40 ballast I can lay my hands on, but I think on 120 volt they are .8 amps. I looked at a 2 light 8 ft 120 volt and it is 1.21 amps. The cost of operation can be pretty easily calculated from this since they are on all the time, no guessing about hours of use or inrush current.

The other thing that occurs to me is that commercial space is usually rented "as is" and the tenant builds the offices or shelving or whatever they need. Tell the tenant to hire an electrician and have a switch added if he wants to! -- JHF

Thanks. I agree that it should be up to the tenant to fix/repair/unhook the lights.

But, tenants are extremely rare these days and my friend is trying to keep this one.

Lynlynch,

The next time you or your friend is questioned about the lights you should respond using this negotiation tactic that was first developed during the cold war (circa 1950) then perfected in the 1990's:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/so-sue-me.html

Thanks to all of you for the assistance.

I'll report on the outcome.

40 W power is for the tube.

If an ordinary ballast is used, add another 25 W.

If it is an electronic ballast, the additional power will be negligible.

Multiply the total power by hours used and then divide by 1000. This gives KWH.

Now multiply this figure with the rate per KWH.

This excercise can be done for a day, a month or an year - depending on what is convenient.

If it is an enclosed space, light intensity available will also depend on the colour of walls, etc. The idea is to explore the possibility of using a lower power.

Rajan

Thanks.

FINAL REPORT:

My friend has decided to rent the man lift and have an electrician come in and change out the bulbs.

Thanks for all the good suggestions and support.

lynlynch

Don't want to harp on about it, or drag out the thread beyond it's useful life, but did anyone check out whether any of your local regs mentioned this kind of lighting for emergency egress?

Just hoping the fire dept. inspector doesn't order them to be put back up (or - worst case - something untoward happens and your friend ends up getting his pants sued off _{(did I say "pants Sue'd off"? - be still, my beating heart)}).

I have in front of me the name and direct phone number of the senior electrical plan inspector for our municipality. His office is just across the street from mine. Before I commission the work, I'll give Frank a call.

I'll let you know what he says.

No need to waste money on a manlift.........Just make one of these

Try following the conduit from the light to the panel box, will likley be a 1" pipe, remove the cover to the panel box, this will give you a choice of 4-8 circuts.

Now just put an amp meter on each wire and see which wire has a power draw after you turn off the lights. This would be the fastest way and you wont have to clean up the glass off of the floor !

When you find the wire just add a switch on the side of the box to turn off the lights or mark the breaker.

Often in large warehouses the light switch only controls a relay that turns on all of the lights

Giggle, you so funny.

My home has a power distribution panel with more than eight circuits. If there were a switch that could turn off these lights, don't you think that they would just use this switch to turn these lights off. Do you really think that the only constant draw power at this facility are these lights? If you're that familiar with the layout of this warehouse, why don't you just tell us which of the four circuit breakers provides the power for these lights.

Hi,

Yes, I tried to follow visually. There are too many junction boxes between the light and the breaker panel. Oh, and the lights have their own switch and conduit which goes up the wall and then gets lost in the maze of cinduit.

There are about 25 individual circuits in this box, not 6-8. As redfred says many of these have constant power draw.

My electrician will probably take one look at it and know what to do. That's his job. Chances are he won't need the man lift, either.

Thanks.

Hi lyn it just occurred to me that, in the future, if your buddy was to come up with some kind of reasonable calculation, raise the rent to compensate and include electricity in the rent, situations like this would never come up. It's possible that he could even make extra money every month, to cover the hassle of paying the bills. Because regardless of the rent, people like the landscaper will perceive this as free electricity. This is one of the oldest tricks in the book and it is very effective. i.e.- apartments that offer free cable, hotels that offer free internet, etc.

Funny you should say that. The adjacent 40,000sq. ft. building was rented that way.

He visited them the same day. He chuckled that "every light in the building" was on.

You just can't win.

It looks like your in good shape with your answer. I'd just like to throw out one more thing for consideration. I don't know if it's feasible or not but, what about the daylight sensors like the ones that activate street lamps, mounted on the roof. The lights would be on only at night or on really cloudy days. Your friend is fortunate to have a friend like you on location and on the case. Good luck!

The tenant wants the light out. That's the simplest solution. The electrician may be able to turn the light off, just because that's what he does.

BTW, the last time my friend was in town he gave me a bottle of Gran Patron.

That's $200.00USD bottle of booze.

I can understand your enthusiasm in getting this resolved, I bet that's good stuff!

I know this and my other post does not give you the calculation you first asked for, but..

There are only a couple of lights that will not turn off?

Are these located at exterior doors or hallway leading to the exterior?

Can you see a red pilot light for testing a possible battery backup?

when you flip the main breaker to off, do the lights still stay on? . for awhile?

It seems someone thought it was a good idea, or required to have these unswitched.

Maybe the cheapest thing for your landlord friend to tell the tenant is they are required to meet local codes.

I do not have access to your codes, but most use the NFPA 101 Life Safety Code as their foundation when it comes to laying out the emergency lighting.

In general, NFPA 101 defines a "path of egress" that needs to be illuminated even during power outages.

90 minutes of emergency illumination after a power outage.

An average illumination of one foot-candle at floor level on the path of egress.

No less than 0.1 foot-candle at any point in the path of egress