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Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 2:32 AM

Three forms of physics exploitation has now been developed into one mechanical device.

Gas turbine, Hydro turbine, and Internal combustion turbine.

That which began as mechanism using gas pressure to drive water to a hydro turbine, or provide gas pressure to a gas turbine has now been developed into the internal combustion engine.

Open Technology to assist reduction in Carbon release.

Principal in use, liquid will evacuate from an open ended pipe when a gas pressure is applied to its opposite end.

Gas use exploits the force that when a cold gas is heated it expands providing a pressure force. Such as found in Gas turbines.

Combustion exploits any mixture of fuel and fluid when provided with air becomes combustible and combustion can be achieved by compression other than by having a solid piston perform the compression forces needed.

Hot/Cold cycling of gas begins when cold gas is venturi ed into liquid flow returning to refill the short pipe of the DaS Valve. Gas always rising to the top surface of contained liquid encounters heating at top of short pipe. This heating expands the gas forcing liquid out of the system.

When the hot gas forcing the liquid before it has travelled sufficiently down the short pipe it crosses over into the long pipe.

Gas having entered the bottom of the long pipe rises up through the liquid to reaching its top.

The top of the long pipe has a cap with a hole in it, and under that hole sits a float held there by the liquid.

The cold gas upon reaching the top of the short pipe and heat expanding begins its downward pressure on the liquid till crossong over into long pipe leaving the float without means of buoyancy and the float seeking to follow the liquid moves away from blocking the gas exit vent.

The timing pipe starts out full of liquid as in both short and long pipe. As the gas pressure forces liquid from the short pipe it also forces liquid from the timing pipe.

The timing pipe is of such length that the liquid passing out of the short pipe and the timing pipe both commence uphill travel into the long pipe simultaneously.

The purpose of this is to ensure the short pipe is fully evacuated of liquid before gas clearing the timing rises up into the long pipe unseating the exhaust vent float.

Because the timing pipe end in the short pipe is at lower elevation than its opposite end in the long pipe, incoming refill liquid cannot enter the timing pipe until the short pipe is completely full of liquid thereby eliminating any gas pocket being trapped in the short pipe during the liquid filling of both short and long pipe.

These actions together create a liquid piston stroke down and up.

The hot gas may be cooled by any means before being venturi ed into liquid refilling both short and long pipe. The gas escaping from liquid containment does so into the short pipe rather than waiting to liquid flow has travelled further to begin refilling the long pipe.

Alternate cooling and re injection of cool gas can occur with an expansion chamber situated upon the top of the tall pipe, however this requires a screw being cut into extended turbine shaft so the cold gas is vacuumed out of the expansion chamber and compressed back into the short pipe.

Internal combustion method also requires a screw being cut into extended turbine shaft however this time its only purpose is to compress air into the short pipe containing a liquid fuel mix. As the air is compressed only into the short pipe the liquid fuel mix contained in the long pipe does not com-bust.

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#1

Re: Mulutiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 3:24 AM

That's interesting. So have you actually built and tested this thing yet, or is it still just a theoretical concept?

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#2

Re: Mulutiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 4:21 AM

Dear DVader1000,

Thank you for your interest. Blunt answer to your question is no! However all but the extended turbine shaft with screw has been developed and proven in operation.

The system orignated from watching the air vent valve so common in fluid pump pipe lines.

The only thing not off the shelf so to speak is the timing pipe, which by the way must be external. Dont know why but when talking with Carlton Brewing (during a demonstration) about trying to get timing right with pipe inside, then every going ok when outside, they just laughed and said allways. Still dont know why.

Easiest home built model requires three lengths of water pipe and three tennis ball. One for exhaust vent seal the other two providing way valves.

Easier again if flap/swing valves can be purchased to ensure one way flow of liquid.

Once constructed build fire around short pipe to create steam drive.

Odd thing about using steam drive is the water exiting is cold whereas I though it would be hot.

We have CO2 as best gas to date given its remarkable self cooling when released from pressure. This cold gas was then ventried into return flow of water.

Our understanding is the shown screw and not shown expander tank are in line with commercial fridge opperation.

Internal combustion was first acheived on Diesl water mix with compression by air coming from air compressor. Not srew compressor carved into extended turbine shaft.

Cheers

Peter

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#3

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 12:58 PM

I think both the drawing and the write-up need to be improved. Both are hard to understand, and I suspect that several things simply cannot work as described.

No data are given as to pressure/enthalpy/temperature/entropy at the various nodes in this system. The nature of compression/expansion/evaporation/condensation is not well described. No thermodynamic cycles are named.

If there exists a prototype of pipe sections, tennis balls, etc., then a You-Tube video might shed some further light.

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#4

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 1:50 PM

Further reading here.

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#5

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 2:50 PM

Somewhere somehow I don't expect this to fly any better than any of new engine design post that came from last times DAS was here.

I give it 50 - 100 posts before its dead again.

First phase change energy levels at the different points in the cycles wont add up. I am just going to leave it at that.

Second "Open Technology to assist reduction in Carbon release." sounds like a common snake oil sales pitch to me especially being the Carbon credit and related stuff has pretty much died in the real sciences circles due to its unproven gains vs realistic costs issues.

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#14
In reply to #5

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 5:56 AM

So it won't overtake the bath-breaking thread, then?

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#19
In reply to #14

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 10:06 AM

Mere length is not a fair measure. It is already far ahead of the Bath-Breaking thread in several important metrics. Our panel has rated this thread on several metrics, using a 1-10 scale:

Implausibility: 9.95

Misconceptions per Paragraph: 8

Profundity of Obscuration: 10

Convolution of Language: 8

Vagueness: 9.99

Misapplication of Physics: 11

Skirting of Issues: 9.92

The real strength of this thread is from the high scores in every area of concern, not just one or two. This thread, however, does not set a record in that respect. Some of DaS's earlier threads scored even higher. This is a disturbing trend, indicating that DaS could be showing the first signs of rational thought, the scourge of science, well-known to impede progress. Rational thought has prevented the good inventions shown here from coming to the marketplace.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 10:22 AM

Don't be too harsh, it's still early

I have every confidence that DAS can bring thread up to his nearly unparalleled standards

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 11:35 AM

Don't be too harsh, it's still early

True. I see hope for the thread, but am disappointed in the lack of the kind of ludicrous-over-the-top-laugh-til-you-pee claims previously made: 150,000 psi working pressures, over-unity efficiency claims, etc. Certainly, one can look at the diagram of this engine, and conclude that nothing would happen, and that the apparent liquid serving as the piston would be subject to the force of gravity, and simply fall to the bottom of the cylinder. However, that thought does not, by itself cause really satisfying guffaws -- no belly laughs here.

I italicized "by itself" because I wanted to leave DaS an opening... a subtle suggestion for improvement. With some colorful, imaginative, stream-of-unconsciousness text, this thread could go places. Persecution claims? Definitely worth trying.

As drawn, this "engine" would do nothing at all: it would just sit there. So either we need a more complete and (one can only hope) legible drawing, or a really good description. DaS provided a readable drawing in the past, and it had the desirable quality of being completely without any meaning that two rational people could agree upon. Virtually every pixel of that drawing is loaded with ambiguity. A liquid (fuel it seems) is showing falling downward and then out to the right, while a "combustion" is shown falling down and then turning upward. As drawn, fuel would pool in the bottom of the unit, where it would mix with whatever liquid was intended to hold the piston up. If that goo in the bottom were supplied with air and an ignition source, perhaps the unit would become warm, provided "something" caused a continuous supply of air and fuel. A form of heat sculpture would then have been created, but it would not be likely to match this:

The Phase diagrams are a good sign, I think, because they seem to have nothing at all to do with the drawing. Some "poor inventor" stuff is always a good thing too. Personally, I love it when people claim that the Wright brothers would not have been able to do what they did (they invented flight, they claim) without lots of support for magic. I think I recall DaS having made such assertions in the past, but I don't think he has done that in this thread.

So, I think you are right: it's still early, and this thread could go places. Plenty of room for growth.

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#23
In reply to #20

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 4:02 PM

I don't know, that one thread he had with the picture of his prototype that was made out of a plastic garbage can, some garden hose pieces, and a few blocks of wood that was supposed to work (at how many tens of thousands of PSI and how hot of temperature?) is still a tough one to beat!

He may or may not be a self loathing crackpot but he seems to have a similar air of para science influence and apparent general lack of understanding that is typically associated with the para science scam runners and/or clueless twit crowd who believe in it.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 4:20 PM

Harsh - but I can't fault the accuracy

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/07/2010 3:56 PM

I am posting this mainly for future readers, who might think that we are tough on new ideas. We are not. We can, however, be hard on old ideas presented time and time again without any support in real science, by people who claim to be like Einstein one minute and then simple farmers without any engineering knowledge the next, and who switch back and forth for convenience.

For these threads to be of any utility at all, there must be two-way communication. Through the years here, Peter has not held up his end of the bargain: ask a simple question, and you get a diversion instead of a direct answer. It is quite possible that he believes in his device*, but his website is essentially fraudulent, with pictures of "newspapers" with articles about the DAS turbine and DAS energy: "Next Generation of Power," "Your Energy Solution," "CO2, The Future of World Power," etc. His site lists contacts for "Marketing", "IT", "Technical Support" (Peter), "Manager", and "Human Resources".

Gut feel tells me that Peter is not another Stanley Meyer or Dennis Lee... but his website fits the scam mold, by suggesting that these newspaper articles have been written about DAS. Unfortunately, he also uses the other techniques the pseudo-science frauds have, such as claiming that the Wright brothers invented flight and that the idea was thought to be implausible at the time, that bumblebees "cannot" fly according to "science," that a government conspiracy is keeping his idea from being brought to fruition, etc.

About two years ago, Blink asked Peter several very straightforward questions, which he consistently evaded. (See this thread, posts 50 through 63)

In this earlier post, he claimed 10,000 bar (about 150,000 psi) operating pressure, as a result of raising Co2 gas temperature from "cool" to 50 degrees c.

  • In short, cool Co2 gas pocket trapped above a collum of water implaces a downward force of 10,000 bar pressure upon the water when the Co2 temperature is raised to +50* Celsius.

His website claims a 300 (and 314) times reduction in coal usage by using his device, meaning that if a conventional turbine power plant is 50% efficient, his would be 15,000% efficient. He has been told by many of the impossibility of this, yet continues to promote his device, undeterred.

We should not lead him on, by pretending his idea has merit when it does not. We should also not become Peswiki, where any idea, no matter how ludicrous (or fraudulent, in many cases) is actively promoted.

At CR4, we have a history of helping people with real engineering issues, and many of us will go out of our way to work through language difficulties.

This is telling:

In a post on another (but related) subject, Blink tells of this exchange between him and DaS_Energy

At one point I asked: But let's keep it simple. First answer this simple question: For 2400 watts output, what is the input energy?

He replied: Keeping it simple, it was Einstein who first said the problem with being a genius is your surrounded by mediocre minds.

*and it is not uncommon that over-unity machine promoters genuinely believe in their concepts, it seems. It can be almost impossible to distinguish the true frauds like Dennis Lee and Stanley Meyer) from people who are just true believers.

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#6

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 7:40 PM

Well, at least you are tireless.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/28088

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/50216

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/22899

Perhaps some time spent learning about physics and thermodynamics would be helpful. I take it as encouraging that you are no longer mentioning the 150,000 psi operating pressure. On the other hand I take it as discouraging that you still throw in statements like:

Open Technology to assist reduction in Carbon release.

Here's a site which may help.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 7:51 PM

Hello MoronicBumble

Thank you. Yes we are tireless without such continuance those aware of the genius in simplicity and taking the design to furtherance by themselves would not have come about.

Should a couple of bicycle builders not have lead the way and ignored those not knowing expressions of failure the aircraft we ride in today would not be with us.

Cheers

Peter

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 8:05 PM

That is exactly why this project is so unpromising. Lots of completely irrelevant guff and not one correct word about thermodynamics.

Apparently one guest would like to invest. Good luck finding him/her again!

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#12
In reply to #6

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 9:01 PM

Sorry about missing phase graphs, still relied upon.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 5:56 AM

Yes, AND....?.

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 9:36 AM

Appears Supercritical not be in last post

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#17
In reply to #15

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 9:54 AM

Yes, AND.....

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 9:42 AM

Sorry got it know I think. Reading the temperature and pressure lines you will note the pressure force between a lower and higher temperature is work pressure.

Applying of Steam turbine principal hot and cold a pressure drive force continues one way.

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#7

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 7:42 PM

How do I invest in the development and marketing of this wonderful new technology?

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#11
In reply to #7

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 8:13 PM

Hello Guest,

Thank you for your interest.

Unfortunately I am ubable to provide an answer to your question. The backer of development is Christian Church in Brisbane Australia, and the device is Open Technology free for copy.

Some may sit and pray for God to stop the harm of Global Warming where as we were told to get off our arse and do something.

Should yourself or person satisfactory to yourself wish to go to further development and or market only the principal cannot be Patented however individual design can be freely Patented.

Cheers

Peter

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#9

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/02/2010 8:00 PM

Other phase graphs unfortunately not in picture form I do not know how to post.

However this one is for temperures up to 30*C . Further information may be found web searching Supercritical Co2 phase graphs.

Please bear in mind the working pressure is that contained between the high and low temperature points that one operates the device at.

Cheers

Peter

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#18
In reply to #9

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 9:55 AM

Yes, AND....

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#22

Re: Multiple Physics Exploitation

12/03/2010 1:09 PM

The multiple physics* to which you refer, I gather, are these:

  • Gases, when heated, expand.
  • Gases have mass, and therefore, moving gases can move a turbine, via momentum transfer.

These two form the essential basis for heat engines (although there are confounding principals at work too, such as the fact that expanding gases cool). Your device does not appear to be able to do any work at all. As drawn, it appears that it would only get warm, if means were provided to prevent the working fluid from extinguishing the flame, etc., but even that means (of working gas/combustion gas separation) is not clearly presented.

I gather that you intend your device to do work. If you have a working prototype, then a video of it working would help to show what actually happens with the device. Failing that, to convey what you have in mind, you would need to provide effective communication in the form of good drawings (which could be done by hand and then scanned) and a clear narrative. Throwing together lines and words in random order does not constitute effective communication.

Imagine you are trying to explain your idea to a college physics professor, or to a patent examiner.

If you search the web you will find many references to heat engines. Many of these actually function, and can therefore be used to do work. Nothing in your description leads me to think that this "engine" would work. So your description should explain, clearly, how the device works.

I wonder if, by using sentences (instead of sentence fragments that appear to be titles??) you could explain how this device is intended to work. Delete all references to "green energy," "multiple physics exploitation," Open Technology to assist reduction in Carbon release", "Combustion exploits any mixture of fuel and fluid when provided with air becomes combustible and combustion can be achieved by compression other than by having a solid piston perform the compression forces needed," etc., etc. Instead, simply and clearly state how your device works. Every sentence needs a subject and a verb. When you throw in gibberish, you come across as a "crackpot," which is, I assume, not your intention. (However, you may want to ask yourself what your motive is -- there are, in fact, people who do want to be seen as crackpots, so that they can claim the world is against them.)

Several legible, carefully labeled drawings would be essential. In one drawing, you would want to call out the "pieces" involved, and you would want to number them. (Just follow common patent drawing conventions in this regard.) Use descriptive names, such as "gas transfer pipe" for item C, "ball check valve" instead of "DaS valve", etc. The idea would be to communicate, rather than obfuscate.

Then, you should provide a process diagram, showing flows, and explaining in step-by-step detail, how your device works, and why it might work as well as a conventional steam engine or ICE. Understand that many people will not be able to envision the device working at all, let alone, (for example) poorly... or well. So you should explain why the "piston" is liquid and how that liquid floats on top of the gas in the cylinder. You should explain whether or not the tennis ball falls along with the piston, or if it hangs up on the edge of the pipe C.

Provide the energy efficiency and support for your calculations.

Then we'd have someplace to start. I see that it has taken a couple of years to add a couple of lines to your drawing, but I suspect that you may have done some thinking in that time. I'd suggest spending some time in making your idea comprehensible to educated people. Getting together a good explanation and drawings will take some time, but nothing close to the two years since you first presented your idea here or the five years since you presented it to the Halfbakery. If you want to communicate clearly, you will be able to find the means -- ask a friend to write it up or draw it, go to a college for help, etc., etc.

Once your local college is satisfied and you have something we can talk about, then come back, and we can help refine the idea, serve as devil's advocate, etc. (I fear that others have probably already offered this advice, years ago.)

*In fact, for engines there are not, in a basic sense, "multiple physics" there is only one physics: that being conventional Newtonian physics. Particle physics, nuclear physics, quantum mechanics, and relativity all apply but not in ways that need to be discussed for heat engines. In terms of Newtonian physics (and logical extensions such as the laws of thermodynamics) all sorts of principles apply: gravity, for example: why does your liquid piston hang in air?

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