Ice Mower

If it's properly balanced you should be ok, as long as you don't try to take too big a bite at one time. The steel ball leaves me cold. I'd mount it in a bearing and gently spin it to find the heavy spots. Maybe a skate board wheel bearing on a shaft in a vise would work for this. Or the local tire shop might help you.

I've used de thatching blades on lawn mowers before without incident. They have a heavy spring mounted on each end of a flat blade that digs into the turf to thin out grass.

Wear steel toed shoes, just in case.

Send photos. I just love to see what other tinkerers come up with.

we were hoping you would do the math

Guests are pests at bests.

Oh come on now, that's not true. I'm a member pest........at least I try to temper it with the occasional useful tidbit.

Guests, just like members, can be a pain in the a$$ or helpful. We've all had our moments.

Sorry to hear about your pier. Here in NC they've started building them higher off the water and out of concrete.

Oh.. 20" long. It sounds like it would be ok if it's balanced.

I'm with Lyn on the balancing. Could you just hang it from a centered piece of string and do some grinding on either side until it hangs perfectly level?

I also wonder if you should run some kind lever system to your wheels up to a controller on the handle so you can fine tune the height adjustment. This would insure that you are truly shaving the ice. I'm worried that if the height is to low and you catch a big frozen footprint, it may get caught on it and the whole thing could fly apart.

I'd like to see pictures also.

Did you lose your job?

If you're here attempting to validate your miserable existance..........it doesn't work.

I wasn't aware that engineers never worked on anything that could be considered dangerous.

I love the fact that you built this thing. But, I have some grave concerns given the description of unit. Grass cutting blades and mower engines are sized so the main bearings of the crankshaft will hold the mass in proper alignment. Your adding the equivalent of 3 times the mass and not sure if it is balanced or not, could be an issue. You also stated that you cut off some of the deck as well. The deck now has been weakened by you removing the material from (I assume) the lower section of the deck. This is a structural part that is designed to keep flying objects contained inside the deck cover area,, including the mower blade. So going back, for every action there is a reaction, good or bad. I would be re-thinking this operation and design. Just don't get hurt. If you were to loose a foot or someone else, it would be forever.

I am a bit worried too - this is why I asked. It is statically balanced but not dynamically. I took a 1 1/8" polished steel ball and put it in a polished v block leveled in a vice with a high precision level and rested the 3/4" blade mounting hole on the ball with the blade free to dip on either end. I tried other methods as suggested, hanging from string, rotating in a bearing, a nail but there was either too much instability to balance or too much friction to move at all. I was careful in leveling the v-block and the blade at release and am confident the balance is statically good centered on the long axis. Like most mowers, the wheels do move up and down so I can get it down to the ice level. From experience with a chopper/axe/shovel etc. I don't think the ice will resist much since raised frozen sections will shatter off to plane of the rink surface pretty easily. The removal of the deck is worrying me too. I may attach a big angle iron to the back as a shield in the event the bolt holding the blade breaks off to catch the balde

Maybe you should rethink the entire blade concept. Ever seen one of those big rotary floor sanders. The entire sanding disc sits on the floor and spins, like a buffer........no chance of flying pieces. I don't think you'd want to use it like a buffer, but if you were to set your wheels so that baby was just barely touching the surface of the ice.............just a thought.

Find one of these'

I'm re-thinking my prior comment, and actually, most everyone's thus far.

Proper balance is the first thing we all were concerned about. But on second thought, near perfect balance may not be so high in the priorities as it may seem. Mainly because this blade is going to be whacking, skimming, smacking solid objects (ice) while it's spinning. At that point, a fine tune balance is going to be somewhat irrelevant. Balance would be primary only if this was going to be spinning without obstruction. But the first whack, and this will be wobbling in any case.

Structural integrity may be what is of highest importance here. As was mentioned, these bearings were made for much less mass. As was the shaft. Center shaft failure may be the biggest danger here. That is a lot of metal to start flinging around at high speed; and then start hitting ice chunks with. I haven't seen the design, but I'm not so sure I'd want to be standing near it during use. The bearing/shaft system of the mower was designed for light weight and little obstruction. I'm guessing the $700 model was designed with higher stresses in mind.

I think the $700 model is basically what i did be they used tool steel from the looks of it.

I too would worry about a fast-spinning fly-cutter arrangement. I don't know how a Zamboni is built, but I envision something like a slow-turning rotary cheese grater followed by a light spray of water to reestablish a glaze.

Zambonis use two Archimedes screws with sharpened edges arranged to move the shaved ice from either side towards the middle where it is picked up and conveyed to a storage bin. Every thing moves fairly slowly since a pool-table smooth level surface is the desired final result.

That makes sense. I tried to give it a GA, but the dopey system is saturated and won't let me.

Those are the photos - i had to register to get the photo uploader icon.

Thanks for your thoughts.

brick66,

Welcome! You'll fit in well here.

But, now that I see the mass difference, I will not recommend that you use it.

I'd be worried as much about the deck failing as anything else. It's not designed to support that much moving mass.

And, although I did comment about using that de-thatching blade without problems, I'm backin' off on telling you to use it. That'll be up to you.

_{(I really love it, and secretly want to see pictures of the ice, "after")}

Cheers.

Although this is a very fun idea, you are venturing in a very dangerous zone of mechanical tinkering.

Try engineering it all: safer, you'll learn more and perhaps live longer and healthier.

If you take time to analyze the physics and dynamics behind your contraption, you will be able to assess the dangers and pitfalls.

First I would not want any body part near this, even steel toed foots.

Think of what happens when a mower moving blade is abruptly stopped by a small tree stump or rock, you fell the thump in the mower handles. Most of the kinetic energy from the blades is transfered to the ground thru the wheels. Still the mower jerks to the side on a high friction surface.

Your ice shaver blade has higher momentum, if (when, because it will happen!!) blocked to a stop, all this energy will get transfered to the mower with no or very little friction to the ground. Expect it to jerk and fly even if you hold on to the handle very very hard.

Then there are the ballistics of any part of the blade, steel blocks detaching or flying off in its entirety. Will the mower shell stop it? Is it low enough that parts will not fly off under it?

How about ice blocks ballistics?

So, at the least add heavy steel plates around the mower shells, add loads of weight to make this device stable.

Dangerous experiments are fun, crippled for life less so.....

If all goes well on your first experiment, you are just in a higher statistical danger of getting crippled

I like the way you think!

On the other hand, this is starting to remind me of the time I thought it would be a good idea to attach a circular saw blade to an angle grinder to expedite my work on a wood sculpture.........it worked great, until I dinged my thumb and removed a lot of meat, fast.

I wonder if you could eliminate the weights and countersink your bolt, allowing the entire flat piece of metal to shave the ice. I'm not sure I'd feel completely comfortable with that either though.

Maybe eliminate the blocks and bolt on flexible flaps of heavy 36 grit floor sanding paper directly to the bar. This should work, and it would give something to sacrifice besides the entire unit............or your leg.

Hi again

What was it like when you started the ting? On a scale from 1. to 10. how scary was it? Those cutting bits would have had so much unbalanced kinetic energy that it would have started shaking instantly. I guess the fear would have reached 8 and then the shut off.

I am certain that this flywheel situation would have altered the performance of your engine as well. Just getting it started must have felt different. Any chance of a video?

Just wishful thinking. Good luck, Ky.

From the looks of the picture I don't think you'll have a problem with the blade. However, you might run into a problem of shearing shear pins left and right. Lawn mowers and their blades were meant to slice through grass not bang into solid objects.

Now that I see it, I'd be comfortable with that only if the RPMs of that motor were far lower. At a slower speed, you'd probably be okay. But at full grass cutting speed.... nahh, I would pass on this one. It looks destined for a dramatic event

How about deceasing that blade thickness by about 1/2.... and then, instead of those heavy blocks, you use a slice of hollow rectangular steel tube, with roughly the same outside dimensions as your block, but it would be hollow. And the open (cut) end would be facing down. That would give you a nice sharp ice cutting edge, but you'd take about 75% of the mass out of this arrangement.

Again, it would need to be as balanced. But your shaft and bearing might be able to handle it better.

This is just a general suggestion. I don't recommend using it until some more thought is put into it, regarding safety. But it might be a direction to take.

You also might want to attach a couple of bubble levels to your deck, because if u get this working, but it wasn't perfectly level, you're going to do some serious damage to your surface.

Also, a way to fine tune your height. Because if you rely on only the few notches on the height adjustment assembly, you might end up too high, or too deep... again, damaging your ice.

Most mower parts supply/repair businesses sell a device for checking mower blade balance after sharpening. It is a cone with varying diameter steps to accept different diameter blade mounting holes. The cone sits on a sharpened pin attached to a mounting plate. You grind on the end that dips lower until the blade remains level (obviously you must firmly mount the base of the device on a rigid and level surface). This is only a static balance. For a dynamic balance the process becomes much more complicated (see automotive dynamic tire balancing procedures). I would be more concerned about the varying loads generated by the intermittent contact of the blade with the uneven ice surface. That may generate some significant torque that may overstress the motor mount/deck and crankshaft (maybe the operator too). I would look into using some type of spring fingers to limit the force generate against the blades. You will need to use a mechanical attachment method to avoid removing the spring temper. This would also accomodate replacement of element that break.

wear some 8" stilts when you try it!

Instead of the 3x3 blocks, you might try some carbide lathe tool bits in a 1/2" x1/2" x3" welded to the end of your bar.

That is a good improvement if it works - how will the welding change the carbide tools?

I'm not going to harp about danger anymore.

I think the primary problem with the current design is the weight involved. Even a tiny wobble will quickly sheer off that bolt. I don't think it has to be heavy. Anything slightly abrasive will quickly knock that ice down at those RPMs. The trick will be to find something that doesn't stress that shaft any more than a mower blade cutting grass would.......preferably, even less.

Here's a crazy thought............some time ago someone got on here and asked how a vibrator works. My thinking is, to remove the wheels entirely, put a small counterweight on the shaft, essentially turning the engine into a big vibrator, and either using the metal body itself as the shaver or welding some blades around the perimeter.

I like and support the response from chrisg288, or you could find/fabricate a robot to operate the tool and see what happens from a safe distance.

I also like the idea of using lathe cutters, mounted in a smaller block with set screws so they can be changed. It seems to me that, at the speed of the outer end of the 'blade', a small vertical cutting edge would work well, eliminate some of the mass, and be less likely to have violent reactions to heavy cuts.

like others, I am concerned with the increase in weight at the tips of the blade. the increase in potential energy is massive. Similar to flywheel explosions. If one tip were to break off, the projectile would be lethal, and the "mower" could "fly" uncontrollably.

I would look for a "dished" (mower) blade. they are available with various drops (offsets).

That would retain the original load calculations.

If you use a shorter than stock blade, you could add a reinforcing strip on the inside of the deck, to minimize excursions.

I once ran over a brick while clearing out a flower bed. One end of the blade bent severely and was fly cutting the ground. Too bad I tossed it out. I would have sent it to you.

I'ed go along with the slow down part by offsetting the motor for a pulley system, but that would increase the size. You are working with a lot of speed and chance of flying parts that makes the machine a bit bad for your health and ankles. Take a hint from a concrete finisher. You may be trying to get your power from the speed of the mower. And starting it under any type of load may take two people to begin operation.

Hi, Have to agree with the others sorry. Good idea, but not the execution.
(cannot foresee any happy ending with this design.)

If we assume it works and has little risk, what will you do with the scrapings?
Professional machines collect them as they travel. Do you have a collector?
Weather permitting the scrapings will rapidly re-freeze, possibly making worse ridges?

I was going to suggest a garage could do a good dynamic balance for you,
(tyre balancing machines) but the fitters deserve to keep their limbs / lives.
Please dismantle, and reconsider, going back to the drawing board.
(don't just scrape it, a young lad may decide to "give it a go." at something)

There must be far safer ways of grinding ice? - Do a search for ice grinders -
for the working of commercial systems. How about a vibrator? (that's a good word!)

Like an oversized hand sander? Or a conveyor belt with attached metal scrapers?
Dragging chains? Like tyre snow chains? A horizontal revolving drum with raised
slatson the surface? Add water? (to level / mirror the surface.) There are lots of
ways... Less speed, less momentum, less balancing, less risk, less fun..... er?
If you must use it, trial it by remote operation, with 20 ft away barrier surrounds.

I do admire the professionals. They are not always right, they make mistakes, they
can be opinionated, but, they earn their living by what they do, because they make
it work, and usually safely. Follow the bear. (or bare for me!)

Hope this helps.

jt.

ps.. (bare as in girl friend.)

This is a professional floor scraper. I think I may be liking the vibrator idea more and more.

looks like it and the vibrator idea have potential - not sure if these approaches would try to dig down instead of leveling. Thanks - I was not familiar with this machine.

I don't think you need the full block for it to cut well, mowers can take a lot cutting roots and rocks without breakage but install a U guard for the back where you stand just to be safe, the more you can remove from the blocks the better and if it does come apart the less mass the better, no one needs to be in the zone of owwey while this thing is running, never let a bad design turn a good idea into a trip or trips to the hospital,

Sincerely
Mitch retired peugoet mechanic

Nice!

brick66

Stop the press! Danger written all over it!!

Hi Chris

I thought this was all a joke. Well, not many ridges on ice around here. I know from my childhood how annoying these bumps can be though. Not for the ride that much but for pucks not doing what they are supposed to. If I were given the brief I would go to a faster and safer mode of ice mowing. Since you are taking this serious I might as well give it a go.

With much less screwing around and a proven outcome I would combine these tools. A bracket here or strap there. A guide at the end of the blade for height and Bob's part of the team. When the critical, bumpy area is done move to the next. You could use this combination while skating. A Kyshaver if you will.

Well, at least I could, but then, what do you Canadians know about Ice Hokey anyway.

The result will not be 100% unless you want to carry some warm water with you. That could be held in the trolley frame and be heated in a by-pass from the heat of the engine. Sprayed on, like from a pressurized back pack. That's only if you want to have a really competitive finish to the surface.

Just Say n'. Hope all is well, Ky.

GA, and for it I bumped the whole thread to ****.

I was just in my workshop and found all the parts needed. It's all there when you don't need it. Another one of Murphy's laws.

**** and for it I bumped the whole thread to ****.

Is there an English translation or am I missing something?

, Ky.

I think this is a worse hazard than the lawn mower.

You'd need some healthy safety shields on that chain. And some way to stop it in a hurry.

But, it shows that you're thinking.

I've been using a chain saw on a daily basis lately. Removing Cyclone damage. I am sure just shaving a bit of ice is not nearly as dangerous. Just a sweeping circular motion on 2 wheels. I'll get back to clearing now. Not much more to go. Had a 12 foot Python have a go at me. She had found a nice hiding place in the debris. Bet that wouldn't happen on ice

well when I was a kid, we used the snowmobile to polish the ice (on the pond) turning donuts... works great. (until the machine drops through a soft spot... ) (you can see in this video sorta how it is done)

danger with prototype machinery means you have to exclude yourself from potential harm... a deadman (spring loaded) kill switch and stilts will work fine. if alone in a remote location. (perhaps a suit of armor too lol)

I remember when I was about 20... I wanted to make a small helicopter. I found a piece of aluminum extrusion for carpet edging.. a symmetrical extrusion. took a pice about 3 feet long, drilled a hole in the middle, and used a bolt for a mandrel... bent the profile axially on each side of centre, so that when it rotated, it would push air.

I chucked this beauty into my router... (young, dumb, and ... )

in the living room of my 2 brm apartment... I stood against one wall, I turned on the router. with the direction of airflow pointing away from me.

scary doesn't describe the 'jet engine' feeling I got from that... no damage. I think I probably just survived. Even if the thing turned as slowly as 5000 rpm (more like 10k), now that I know a bit of math.. it is too scary to even think about... I'm very surprised the aluminum held together. I think I moved about 1000 cubic feet of air in the 3 seconds it was on.

I'm sure this ice shaver will be tame by comparison. (being a mere 3000 rpm. ) and he isn't holding the engine in his bare hands.... all he has to do is keep his feet out of the way. (and any lifeform within 500 meters..)

btw, most zambonis use the other type of lawnmower mechanism to shave the ice.

cheers,

Chris

Well if we are going to get into "Crazy Machines We Have Built"?

I saw a neat "spin art" machine at Expo 67 (So I was 11 or 12) and figured I could make my own. Just a machine that spins a piece of paper or cardboard and you squirt paint onto it while it spins.

Two slats of light wood, a nail through the center, thumbtack cardboard to wood at the edges, insert nail into chuck of an electric hand grinder, (grinder in home made stand to stay upright) stand back and turn the thing on.

OK maybe I should have checked the RPMs on that grinder and figured that the listed 20,000 was a bit high. Of course the chuck slipped on the nail at first but it kept speeding up the contraption until the whole works lifted off the table and took off across the room. See if you want to build a helicopter, start with a spin art machine.

I eventually got the whole thing to work and produced some great paintings. No two were ever the same and by using a mix of water and oil paints that don't mix we got some stunning effects. Our crowning acheivment was taking a washing machine motor and building a platform to hold a 4' x 4' piece of heavy cardboard. Took that sucker a while to get up to speed (couldn't see the smoke because it was under the 4x4) and then pouring all the paint on burnt the motor, blew a fuse or two and filled the basement with smoke. But what a work of art it produced.

Now if I had known anything about electricity, motors and how to build a system that sped up slowly instead of just an on/off switch, I might still be in business.

I sold the 8" x 10" pictures for $3 to 5$ and I could produce 25 an hour or more. A nice framed set of 3 or 4, all using the same colours, made a great arrangement on a wall. I sold the big one for $150.00 and retired before I burned the house down.

I remember that style of art... very cool. right up there with tie-dyed t-shirts! Perhaps you gave up too soon... seems like the prices have gone up... 40$ for a simple piece now.

The other cool technology I remember playing with as a kid was spirograph... (part way down the page.)

thank you for the timewarp!

Spiro-graphs are cool - you can draw 'super ellipse's' with Spiro-graphs, even make epicyclic gear reductions

Or perhaps he could just spend $700 lousy dollars on the real thing which real engineers put real thought and real experience into designing, development, and testing instead of letting a bunch of internet junk monkeys who learned to type put their two cents into a coffee can so they could buy a cup of death for some innocent bystander.

Just THINKING....

"Just THINKING...."

With what?

perhaps the 700 dollar ice mower is no better, not engineered and just as dangerous

is this a thinking versus bitching kind of conversation?

also, perhaps you could identify yourself if you want to continue the conversation.

Chris

Dont do it!

Huge mass plus high speed equals major trouble. You do not have enough weight in your frame to support this thing - especially when you start "hitting" lumps of ice.

The basic premis is I think good - try working with the same blade weight as is supplied with the lawnmower but upgrade the steel and perhaps use hardenable steel (01 is readily available and is easily hardened and tempered by flame and oil quench.)

Have you tried the lawnmower "as is" on the ice using the grass blade? I think I would start there and mess about prototyping with "junk" steel till I get a winner then upgrade the steel. Remember also, if you are cutting with a rotational motion, you should consider putting "dish" on the blade - look at the end of a milling cutter and you will find it has maybe 2 degrees of dish. This dish is a crucial part of the design that ensures stability through cutting. Consider too, that milling experience also dictates that the more teeth, the smoother the ride.

My 2 cents, good luck...

good news!

if you had a riding mower version, with at least 3 wheels, you would be safer yet!

good work

Chris

Sounds cool. Just remember, if she decides to let go, it's gonna happen very quickly.

Lucky guy!

Forget about laser, the power involved is not within reach.

Laser pen that cut steel are just sci-fi...

Sume safety boots for you

This reminds me of the guy who jumped off a sky scraper: as he passed floors on the way down people could hear him saying "So far, so good".

Weld a heavy guard rail across the back of the machine between your feet and the blade, and, make sure that there is no one else "in the firing line" whilst you're using it.

I stand corrected! It looks as if it does have a happy ending after all.

Down to my age I guess, as some one says, worrier not warrior now.

Well done! jt.

There is already a device in common use made specifically for smoothing large surfaces. It is called a power trowel, and it is used for finishing concrete slabs. They range from small walk behind units to large twin- & triple-rotor ride-on machines. Controlled like a floor polisher by putting more weight on the side of the disk that is moving away from the direction you want the machine to move.

The blades on these are smooth, and rotate fairly slowly. Probably a better starting point for your purpose.

I was wondering what footwear you had in mind from a traction point of view. Unless you are wearing very effective ice spikes, I forsee your lawn mower device quickly taking control of you rather than the other way around!

I don't think this would work, at all, for shaving ice. It's made for smoothing semi soft concrete.

Just a starting point. Blades would definitley need to be modified.

Sounds like its a moot point anyway, since his machine passed its first 45 minute live test!!

I have used one in the winter, on snow and ice in a parking lot, when I worked at that small construction tool rental shop... it won't do the job he is wanting to do.

good try though.

Chris

Next project.......

Wow,

Lowererd to the ground with a small block Chevy.....................................

Hey! Lookit the snowman with the lawnmower, must mean spring is on the way...

using a lawnmower to smooth the fresh concrete?

What a waste. You could build one of these with a bit of extra.