Food Grows Where Water Flows...How Fast?

This idea is completely dead in the water.

ok maybe I should be more specific thus clarifying the concept. Say there is a 10 gallon tank atop of a 6 foot verticle 1 inch diameter pipe at the end of the pipe is a spout positioned to initiate the gyriation of a water wheel or gear. The wheel then powers an archemes screw carrying the water upward at a 45* angle bringing the water back to the tank. is that then possible?

No.

Where is the problem?

Conservation of energy, less losses.

Where would the losses be? It seems to me the tank of water would sustain the flow for the pipe which would allow for gravity to create the energy needed to power the "water wheel" linking the wheel through a gearing system to spin the screw would complete the cycle. I understand there would be losses at each intersection however by altering the tank size, pipe dimension or lengths would change the amount of energy created. Creating enough energy to sustain the amount of expected loss is the key to this and determining the size of the key and amount of teeth on it is the original question to unlock this challenge.

Lowering a mass m by height h gives gives energy proportional to mh. Raising the same mass to the same height requires the same energy. However, on the way down there are losses (pipe friction, pulley and bearing friction, whatever), and on the way back up there are the same losses (maybe different amounts). It doesn't matter what type of mechanism you attempt to use; it can't be done, period. Some classes in physics/math/engineering might assist in understanding this.

Hold on now you are assuming that he wants a 100% recovery of the distributed water back to the tank. It might be possible for him to do this and recover something like 20% or 25% (maybe less) of the water back up into the tank. Then when the tank level drops he has a valve to add new water to the tank, pumped in there by the pressure on the existing potable or irrigation water distribution system. Of course he would have to find a use for the 75% of the water that would remain at the bottom of his system, or flood the low lying areas.

My thoughts exactly, while building a fully self sustaining irrigation system with out the use of electricity is my goal, I did come to realize that it will not be able to sustain itself indefinately. The idea for a solution is as you say to add new water to the tank at the top, along with a back flow valve near the bottom to prevent back up and over flow. I have not come to a solution as far as designing the tank at the bottom to hold the 75% that would not return to the top. As I see it, the tank at the top would hold say 10 gallons, going down the pipes and into the water wheel/screw system would return 2-3 gallons. Thus for the time it would take 10 gallons to drain plus the rate of return at 2-3 gallons would determin the amount of time the process would last before either restarting or adding more water. In either case I believe it would suffice to water the plants continuously while recycling the water without the use of electricity.

Oh I didn't say you wouldn't use electricity, you must keep the tank full somehow, and you will need some outside source of energy to lift that water to the tank. It is just possible to recover some small percentage of the wasted irrigation water in the manner you suggest (though the water quality may not make it worth using). you sill need to lift the makeup water to the tank. Also 25% might be optimistic, it really depends on the efficiencies of the system used and how they compound to form the overall system efficiency. You could always use a low storage tank for the drain water, and use wind power or solar power to pump the water back up also. What you are suggesting would definitely affect system pressures in a closed irrigation system, if you use a open channel conveyance and the velocity losses might be accounted for by adjusting the flow rates.

Solar power has continually crossed my mind as I work in the solar industry, however, the benefit to hydroponics is the ability to nourish plants 24/7 a huge benefit lost by solar powers inability. Wind is a possibility yet its power source seems more inconsistancy than water. The water will maintain its worth as nutrients are regularly added (by hand) as the water my need to be lifted by hand (or pulley) as well. Many people opt not to grow their own food as its "a lot of hard work" In this system there are no weeds, no bending over, no wasted water, no "bad soil", limited pests, the list goes on, and in return for your nutrient rich and healthy veggies that grew bigger fuller and faster than ever thought possible, you'll have to refill a water tank... is that too much?

I guess thats why I live in San Diego, no tornados. Yea that was definately way over my head, just blew right past me. unbelievable. That was obvious to me and others posting here. Heres a tip for you tornado, dont assume as you make an ASS out of YOU and ME. However Im feeling more like a smart ass then a dumb ass. You may want to read a book called looking out/looking in to help you with your perspective. Another thing, when people say No when asked something many times they simply dont know and rather than asking for clarification they arrogantly assume they no all. Tornado your probably a smart guy, slow down and be useful.

Now wait a minute - Tornado gave you a fair answer and a good overview in the context of what you posted.

Trying to be a smart arse, based on what others since taught, is poor form and ill mannered.

Since then you revealed that is a micro-scale hydroponics set up. This changes nothing in the physics - except the efficiency will be 'micro' in those calculators I linked you to.

What "micro hydroponics" does answer is, why you need more flow than 'sane irrigation' would release per water requirement of a crop.

Normally irrigation is to 'calculated uptake needs'. Your system is not. Therefore you have to problem of re-raising the 'flow through'. It's what we call a system design choice.

But; if the top tank is all of 10 gallons and the elevation only 10 feet - consider just carrying the 7 gallons back up.

That might 'slow you down to more useful'

My apologies to tornado, I took his comment personally my mistake. Yes this is in a smaller scale, I do understand the losses that will inevitably occur. Although impossible to calculate the exact loss as its an irrigatimpossible, the solution to recoupe the losses may be the input of more water. Idid get ahead of myself and turned on those around me, a tornado effect I guess. This site has been so useful and insightful, I thank you all very much for your posts and wisdom.

mis-post... my apologies.

It's time for another round of this.

Haha that was enjoyable! Although I got to admit to be discouraged by failed attempts centuries old is hardly deterring. Being in the same mind set at Da Vinci is encouraging and tells me Im not wasting my time thinking and designing useless devices. Thanks for the post

Here is a calculator

Turbine "Efficiency" around MW capacity is in the 75% range (.75 not .9). kW is less

A water wheel is maybe .3 to .5

All your pipes have 'line loss' which comes off "Efficiency"

All the other calculators you need are in the index to the left here and here

and here and here

Good luck.

A great site with tons of info and resources, thanks.

Let's see - if I have an electric motor and I connect it to a generator such that the motor is turning the generator, then I just connect the output of the generator to the input of the motor, once you get it started it should run forever right? Same thing your trying to do.

Where does "Food Grows..." come into this unity scheme? Did I miss it?

Its to be used as an irrigation system.

An irrigation system! Well, that makes all the difference. Now it is an overunity scheme... sort of, I guess.

Where in the system does the water get diverted from the system for irrigation? Where does the replacement water used for irrigation get introduced into the system? Are any of your classmates having better luck with this than you?

unless of course it is also augmented by outside water supplies to maintain the tank level,a nd only a very small portiong is expected to be returned to the tank, which might match the system efficiency. In essence usign the Mississippi River to generate the power to pump water to your house is viable, you just need to use alot more of the mississippi river water to provide sufficent energy to move the water you'd use in the house to account for efficiency losses.

Hydroponic system may be a better description. Using this frame of reference, imagine pumping water to an elevation of say 6-8 feet to a tank before it drains into verticle pipes with stems to pods where the plants are growing. The water then continues down the pipe exiting at a spout (also Im thinking of narrowing the spout to use a thumb over a water hose effect for more concentrated energy, just an idea) then being lifted from an alchemes screw that is powered by a small water wheel/gearing system.

[_Tank__]-/

P| /

I| /

P|\ (wWw) <plants in pods

E|/ /

S| /

L O/ <spout wheel/gears and / screw

Im not in school as you may be able to tell by my blue print for this plan. However, I am interested in gardening and eating healthy natural food. If you could grow your own food would you? if so then grow, if not why not? no i dont grow or smoke pot.

do you mean an archimedes screw? If so you should not expect much efficiency or total lift capacity. You may well need to move 10 times the water down stream to generate sufficent power to return the recovered water up to the tank. However, overwatering is just inefficient, better to adjust the flow rate to the needs of the crop and apply the proper amount corresponding to evapotranspiration rates of the plant, adjusting for temperature and humidity changes of course.

Yes that one, long day, thank you. 10 times? so for every 10 gallons down 1 gallon up. That hardly seems efficient however, I thought of placing the screw into a circluar tub that would sustain a whirl pool affect counter rotating against the screw delivering more energy. The pool and screw both powered by the spout hitting the water wheel/turbine/gearing system. Yes, Id see where you conclude that the plants may be over watered yet think of it as an IV and not soaking in a bath. The entire system would be indoors and regulated through other devices, and indicators in the tank would show when more water is needed as the plants begin to absorb it.

Soaking in a bath, not soaking in an bath, however, I probably have a rasonable understanding of how plants utilize water, aterall one of my degrees is in soil science. The thing you change is not so much the transpiration rate (some minimal change occurs due to water temperatures, ionic strength, etc.. What you really change is the evaporation rates, which you could control. An archimedes screw is a very inefficient pumping system, compound that with efficiency losses in converting the water to energy and the conveyance of that energy to the pump. You also need to maintain some elevation above the delivery points (lost energy head), and for all the energy you convert from the water you reduce some flow capacity (Flow = energy).

You can implement design measures to improve efficiencies due to losses, but these would require special materials and manufacturing that you may not be capable of in-house.

hmm didnt see that grammatic error when I re-read it but thanks anyway. Soil science? How funny Im getting a masters in composting, no sh*t. I do agree an archimedes screw is not the most efficient pump. Do you recommend AN alternative that would be more efficient with out the use of electricity? I believe that the original question was in regard to the design measures to effectively minimize losses...not sure why special materials and manufacturing would be required would you explain?

What is wrong with your idea is that you're designing a perpetual motion device.

ehhh not really my intent, ideally sure thatd be great but more or less I'd like water flowing throw my pipes day and night with little maintanance without the use of electricity.

gerbils... lots of gerbils.. keep them fed with your plant leftovers, give them all wheels to run in, and have them generate your power to circulate the water.

My calculations say you will need a couple hundred gerbils.

Best part is they will give you plenty of free fertilizer.

Don't have it recirculating, that is a waste of energy.

Put something together called drip irrigation.

and instead of having the water free fall, contain it and use the head pressure to pressurize the drip irrigation.

Orchards have been using it to grow phenomenal size apples.

http://www.urbanfarmerstore.com/drip/drip.html

no formula, because there is none for free energy or over unity device.

Unless you have a servant named Emanual Labor.