Poor Flushing American Standard Toilet

Yeesh! Who picked the paint color?

^{Oh, come on... I'm teasin ya!}

That's just the primer. I put it on about a year or so ago. I'm going to finish it any day now.

I see that American Standard has recognized the problem. They just won't tell the poor consumer what it is.

They could have saved themselves a lot of bad press on the internet, by just giving a solution. There are a lot of mad people out there.

The new models have smaller tanks.

http://www.nationalbuildersupply.com/p/american-standard-2074.014.020-toilet.html

Why, with less water, does it flow faster?, making it deeper would increase the pressure, but just reducing the cross section?

I don't know.

It seems counterintuitive, which is why I didn't think of it before. My first thought was to put a styrofoam float on the surface of the water, with weights on top, which I think would have increased the downward pressure. I know it's working though.

Wait a minute. With the soda bottle in there, we are starting off with the same total volume of water, in a smaller space. Wouldn't this increase the velocity of the water going into the bowl, at the initial flush?

Actually, unless you move the adjustment on the float control, you store less water in the tank. You can only raise the water level to the tank overflow.

I didn't mess with the float. And there's definitely 2 liters less water in the tank.

Well, same amount of water in the tank, but two less liters available for the flush, which is contained in the bottle.

Maybe somebody can put it in more scientific terms. There is a noticeable difference in the velocity at the initial moment of flushing.

Just to keep you accurate. 2 liters less (available) water in the tank, correct. Same height of water if you didn't change the float, but not the same amount. Only a height change would affect velocity.

I'm not so sure about that. Now I'm getting a headache trying to get to the "why".

Think about the total weight of water pushing down on the top of the flapper valve at the moment of flush. That would remain the same, with or without the 2 liter bottle in there.

So at the moment of the initial flush, I've got the same amount of downward pressure, but with 2 liters less available water in volume. Wouldn't this cause a momentary increase in velocity?

You did the right thing. Velocity is the key in toilet flushing. I avoid buying toilets with the little hole at the bottom of the bowl. I find that toilets made like water park slides flush better. All the water starts from the top rim, and good ones will have a larger hole directly in front, directing a good flush.

I have seen toilets like this flush with only half a tank, a quick flip of the handle, what's called a short flush.

Some new toilets actually have special workings for a short flush, for when you just pee and want to refresh the water in the bowl.

Yeah, I've seen those.

I've learned more about toilets than I wanted to know. One thing I'm seeng with these low flush toilets, is that when they are hooked up to old septic lines, the small amount of flush water is causing clogs in the main line.

One other thing worth noting........... when women "just pee", they still tend to use massive amounts of toilet paper. I don't think they think like us. The short flush might not work.

Sadly I can relate.

I have had the same toilet for over 12 years and never had a problem with plugging it up until I my wife moved in two years ago. I still don't have any direct problems with me plugging it but still I have to 'fix it' about once a week now.

Me thinks I know where the problem originates and it's not the toilet itself.

(I also see hairline cracks in the porcelain have formed in the last two years too. WTF is she doing in there when I am not home?)

I think that somehow, women believe that if the slightest drop of urine touches their fingers, that it is like sulphuric acid. Therefore it takes a half roll of toilet paper for each trip to the bathroom.

Don't bother saying anything. It won't help.

They just like to hear the sound the rollers make when they go supersonic.

For when men just pee and want to refresh the water.

I find they rarely have enough oomph to remove even the smallest amount of paper.

I just do it out the garderobe into the moat.

First, give yourself a big ATTA BOY for being creative.

Here's my guess. By placing the water bottle (dam) in the tank, you have altered the flow pattern of the water downward into the hole in the bottom of the tank. That could have a effect on the rate of flow into the "business" end of the toilet.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

If you knew how long this has been eating away at my brain, I don't think an ATTA BOY is on the menu.

I'm still thinking that it's a weight to volume thing. Somehow, I don't think the effect would be same if the bottle was filled with air, and forced down into the tank. Since the water level would still be the same, there would be less downward pressure.

I need one of our fluid dynamics experts to tell me why this is working.

Why this works and why women use a half a roll of TP may just have to be chalked up to being some of the great mysteries of life.

It just may be something to do with ratios, Pi x R2 or E = mc 2 Or just the size of the job? yee gads did you see that one? Been there , complained, cleaned the lines, no one gave a damn, their hands never cleaned the plumbing.

I think you nailed it. Less water can get through the hole faster. Once turbulence sets in it gets slowed down. Interesting.

Back in the seventies there was a drought and we put a couple of bricks in the tank. It was only to save water but it did not affect the operation positively or negatively. I should say, we didn't see any difference in performance.

I just read the OP again, "both are 1.6 GPF", "the tank on the Kohler was smaller"; the water must be deeper in the Kohler. You are now flushing with 1.6G -2liters, say about 1.1GPF. Double good, fixes the flush problem and saves water.

I went and measured the levels, and oddly enough, the water level in the Kohler is about an inch lower than the level in the AS.

Why am I getting the feeling that toilet tanks in general, are poorly designed?

Seems to me like a single, narrow column of water would work best. Of course, it wouldn't work with a flapper valve. You'd need an unimpeded flow.

Okay. Here's another piece of the puzzle.

With nothing in the bowl, I clocked the amount of time it took from pushing the flush handle, to actual flush in the toilet, (water discharging down the drain).

Without the water filled bottle in there- 4.5 seconds

With the water filled bottle- 3 seconds

Now, since it takes a particular volume of water for the bowl to actually flush, wouldn't this indicate an increase of velocity from tank to bowl?

It is close to the same velocity, see my #19. more accurately, 1.07/1.6 gallons against 3.0/4.5 seconds. 0.669 versus 0.667.

This doesn't count the volume of the plastic of the bottle which, means less water still.

Yep. It's not much of a difference. I'm not going to complain..........it works.

I'll let the wife think that I'm a genius. I'll be good to go, as long as she doesn't ask me why it makes a difference. Which she won't. She doesn't care. Things either work, or they don't. If they don't, it's my fault.

LynDoor™Industries may be rolling a similar product out very soon.

We'll call it the KRAMFLUSHER^®Tankster.

I like the primer orange color, too. _{(Water not included)}

It's not orange. It's burnt pumpkin.

Do you paint the walls shamrock green on St. Patricks Day?

Nah. I paint for a living. I don't feel like doing it at home.

Have you ever seen a landscaper's yard?

"Burnt Pumpkin"?

Just in time for Halloweenie....

Okay, tell us the truth. Who picked out that color? Come on, spill the beans man! LOL

It sounds as though the Kohler uses smaller gallons

NO. Simply because you are flushing less water, it takes less time....

I have no idea why the fix works. If you take the bottle out, do the problems start again?

Its a good warning to everyone here that AS do not back up their products with any proper support, so EVERYONE be warned, do not buy their sh*t clearer products!!!

We were having this problem with clogging or multiple flushing a lot of the time so I decided to upgrade....I ended up with the Kohler Rialto model with a 2" barrel...

What a difference.....I love it, in fact after some time I went ahead and changed out the other one as well, that was 4(?) years ago...Best I've seen....

I thought about changing out, but I hate wasting money. This will do for now.

It also has one of those flappers that shuts down after half the water is out of the tank. If it flushes the way it's supposed to, and doesn't use much water, I'm good. If I keep having problems, it's outta here.

I still can't believe that a company would put a toilet on the market, without knowing for sure that it worked properly.

"I still can't believe that a company would put a toilet on the market, without knowing for sure that it worked properly."

Microsoft does it every time they release a "new" software product.

Let me know when you see the Service Pack for an American Standard toilet!

It's Friday, I couldn't resist!

Oh right. Don't even get me started.

Upon further reading, I found out that the US government, mandated 1.6 GPF toilets. The manufactures said, "Fine", and they made them, without regard to how well they flushed, only that they met the mandate.

Before anyone jumps on me for my anti-government stance, I'll say that it's worked out. The low flow toilets now work as they should. It's a damned shame that the consumer has to pay the price for these changes.

My suggestion would be for the government to sponsor an X Prize type competition, find a design that works well, and then issue the mandates.

Haha, like the government would ever do anything in a logical way....

Yer killing me. Now you tell us the flapper closes prematurely. Technically, a flapper is supposed to stay up until the tank is empty. It's supposed to float. If not, it's probably flooded. Change it if you want, or just hold the handle for a full flush.

As far as the ladies are concerned, yep, they really use a lot of paper. It can clog the works, especially if a q-tip or such is stuck in the serpentine casting in the toilet. For troublesome toilets, I snake. The wire from a odor bar is easy to fall in un-noticed.

And yep, toilet manufacturers don't test as much as I would like them to. And people don't know one from another, shop for looks.

In my field, maintenance, I've had to deal with a lot of toilets. My favorite is a Lenovo, made in Haiti. Good, and cheap, too. Little things like rubber pads for the tank to rest on, quality workings, and a good flush make my job easier.

Not so, Mike. I'm becoming a toilet expert. One of the early tweeks, was to design a flapper that closed mid-flush. Again, since everyone had to play by the same rules, the mandate came first, consumers came in last. It's sad to say, but if Toto, (Japan), hadn't introduced toilets that both met the mandate, and worked well, I'm not sure if the US manufacturers would have put in the effort.

http://www.toiletology.com/low-flow.shtml

I'm on rural well and septic too. Drink the water out of the ground, and flush the toilets into it. Those toilets are illegal.

I like the idea of a cat test though. If it won't flush a cat, I don't want it.

Gotta go. A PETA van just pulled up.

Everybody not on city water and sewer flushes their toilet into the same ground that the well is in. We just always kept them as far apart as possible. The well usually was over 20 feet deep and the drain fields shallow. I don't think dangerous bacteria can perk down that far, I expect something eats them before they can get that far, or they just die from starvation.

If your land didn't 'perk' or absorb water well, you didn't get a building permit. Having sewage run off your land was taboo. Your well even had to be a safe distance from the neighbor's drain field, too.

Yeah. I'm not worried about it. My well is 250' deep, and drilled through rock. Septic is all up to code.

I'm a little worried about my brother, though. He tends to ignore basic science. No permits, his water table is about 20' deep, and his septic is not too far away.

I grew up in the country, where "the little brown building" was the toilet.Never any flushing problems.Progress came and brought electricity and running water and the old "cat flushing toilets."No flushing problems with them either.Just make sure you had an air gap between your butt and the seat before hitting the handle.The new low flush toilets were designed mainly for the cities to limit the waste treatment plant problems.Imagine 6 million toilets being flushed several times a day!Big difference if you reduce each flush volume.

It really has no effect on rural dwellers that have well water and septic systems.My septic system has been in for 40 years, and never had to have it pumped or snaked out.But I designed it and installed it myself.Nothing goes into the septic tank except commodes.No 90 degree elbows,only 45 or 22 1/2 degree bends.4 inch line.

Everything else (dishwasher,washing machine, tubs,sinks) goes to a separate tank and drain field.3 Inch line.

All plates are wiped clean of grease with newspaper, and the dishwasher is connected at the front of the line to flush out anything from the sinks, tubs, and washing machine.

The upstairs toilet is upstream (pipe wise) of the downstairs toilet,(which is a low-flush model) so it really gets a clean out from above when the toilet is flushed.It does not have a chance to clog.

It is 160 feet to my tank, so everything is pretty much liquified before it reaches the tank.

System has worked well for 40 years, so I must have done something right.

The well is over 100 feet away from tank and drain field.

Same way here. Toilets go to the septic tank. Washer goes to a separate leach field.

I pee outside. Not to save water, but because it splashes................and sometimes I miss.

I tried my method in the city, but it didn't work out. I peed over the balcony rail at a fancy hotel room. I don't like cities.

I'd bet he would really like Bundy's Feistier Flusher just to hear the cat as it went down to the really loud kerfluush and a howl

I've had good luck with the Kohler Wellworth when I replaced two of my old commodes. When I replace the last one, it's gonna be another Wellworth. I don't dare try another brand/model since these work so well. I know some of the earliest LF toilets didn't flush worth a crap.

My brother is a plumber. He told me about the time he toured Kohler's plant. One of their tests is that every toilet should be able to flush 6 ping pong balls.

I believe it too, I installed a Kohler and it hasn't given me any problems.

Personally I now consider that if it cant be filled half way up the bowl with golf balls and a partially shredded cat and not flush that down it's a deal breaker.

(My wife is Turkish and loves to experiment with cooking food. You take a guess after that where the golf balls and partially shredded cat equivalences fit in.)

Theres a reason I prefer to be a 'meat and taters' kind of diet guy.

if tank is mounted in an elevated position there would be sufficient pressure.

they're design has gone down the toilet...

UPDATE:

It doesn't work. I put it to a real life test this morning, and it clogged.

Time for a new toilet.

I'm so pissed off. This thing hasn't worked right since I put it in. I will be joining the American Standard internet hate club.

Edit: I just need to settle myself down. AS corporate will be hearing from me. In the end, they will either give me one of their toilets that work, or they will provide me one from one of their competitors. I just need to be calm..................breath in, breath out.

Perhaps you need more fiber in your diet?

As for not liking the cities,I agree.If you are ever up north and see a sign that says"Hockey Here Tonight" don't try it.I wandered around for 2 hours looking for a bathroom!

We're primarily vegi and turkey. No problems there.

I hate cities. I'm like a caged animal. Sensory overload.

I just need to regroup. As many members here can attest, I've got a gift for making people wish I was never born. AS will find that a free toilet is a small price to pay, to make me go away.

Do I see a toilet breaking party in your future?

We have some people here with experience in breaking bathtubs. Can't imagine potties are any different.

Send pix.

Maybe.

Right now, I have to come up with a plan of attack on the corporate goons. Screaming and cussing doesn't work.

Hell, I got about 100 free rolls of dust bunny toilet paper. They don't want to deal with me when I know I'm right. My new toilet is in the works.

Just tell 'em a Kohler can flush your crap and theirs too, after you bust it up. Send 'em pix of the process and the end result. Tell 'em Kohler tests their poddies by flushing down six ping pong balls. Hand-draw AS' logo on each one, toss it in the shitter and take a pic. American Standard bogs don't flush crap, they are crap. Say it with pictures (if they can't design a decent bog, count on short attention spans).

WOW!!!!

That is unless you have cast iron ones where you live!!!

Here they are generally made of porcelain.....easy to break....

Sounds like its time to step up to commercial pressure flush unit and hide a 10 gallon pressure tank in a nearby closet.

If you can plug that up then maybe a trip to the 'lower body functions specialist' doctor is in order.

Trust me.............it's the toilet.

Step #1: Bypass useless customer support, and track down the people that can make this right.

http://www.americanstandard-us.com/pressroom/2012-01-11-american-standard-appoints-jay-d-gould-as-president-and-chief-executive-officer/

Hmmm. Bought out by venture capitalists. Wonder why?

http://www.suncappart.com/?page_id=348

I just might get me a real nice toilet.

Nora heads up the PR team for the venture capitalists. I'll bet she's a real stand up gal.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

CONTACT: Nora DePalma

Note to mods: This is not priviledged information. Nora is a people person, and likes feedback.

* CR4 ADMIN - phone number and email removed

From the CR4 Rules: Do not post phone numbers or email addresses. The CR4 Admin will delete all phone numbers and email addresses posted in threads or comments. You can share this information via the CR4 internal messaging system.

Before you do snake it out. I have found that some times the wax ring gets squeezed into the pipe and hangs something up right at flange on the floor. This can cause the problem.

I have had candy wrapper fished out hung up there amongst other thing here at work.

Just to be sure that's not the problem.

Also you make me wonder as I just replace one with an AS toilet. Some one cracked the tank. Suppose to be able handle bucket of golf balls on 1.2 gals. I guess we will see.

The new AS models are rated very highly. You should be fine.

I want one of the new Cadet models. But after what I've been through with this one, I shouldn't have to pay for it. If for some reason I don't win this, I won't be buying another AS anything, ever again.

That's is what it is a Cadet 3.

That is the right spirit......

"I won't be buying another AS anything, ever again."

Won't bother 'em in the slightest. What's losing one very occasional customer going to amount to when they sell millions of this waste? You think they won't just laugh at your letter and say, "Whoa! That bloke's really gonna sink our bottom line! We'd better brace for the worst!"

So they're at the Cadet stage? Another millennium and they'll be at what, Second Lieutenant?

Don't bother with 'em. Give 'em hell - they deserve it for manufacturing landfill and you'll get it off your chest - but keep it short & sweet and buy a quality product. What's your time worth? You'll never get it back, so why let them take that away from you too? They win - again.

Give your money to their competition. That's what counts. Vote with your wallet. Beats any letter you could ever write. Money talks; make theirs say "Goodbye!"

Naturally one should "vote" by where and from whom you buy.

I also go onto those sites that inform you on how good or bad a particular shop and or product is and write exactly what I think of them.

Recently I bought a Samsung digital camera and the camera box was thrown into a larger box and the packing material thrown on top. I was furious.

I wrote an email, no reply.

So I then wrote exactly what I thought of the service on one of the test sites. Within 24 hours I had a really nice phone call inquiring why, which I told them, they promised changes and education with their staff, they identified the person concerned, took photos of how it must be and will be done, sent me copies.

A further friendly phone call sealed the "deal".

The effect I was hoping for was achieved.....

I then retracted the bad review and all are happy. Especially me.....

I did not get those results. Good or bad, you get 'em on an individual basis and depending on who reads them and whether they got a good night's sleep or fought with their wife/husband the night before. It's a crap shoot either way you look at it.

For my part, I've had nothing but bad luck with anything Lowe's carries (you don't have them there in Deutschland [count your blessings]). It doesn't matter what it is - anything from a corded hand drill that shits the bed after five uses, or a broken dehumidifier shipped that way from the factory, or a light-bulb extractor whose tines hang up on the fixture because they stick out too far or anything else I've purchased from that shithole. And get this: they're a Green company, 'cept Green doesn't look past the cash register to the landfills they're stuffing with their cheesy broken crap. No letter I've ever written Lowe's was ever acknowledged. Ever. Consequently I don't buy from them. Period. Forever. Not much of a dent, but then, they also grew one customer at a time. If they can grow that way, they can shrink that way, too. I'm doing my part.

Well, I've written off going after AS for a new toilet, as well as purchasing a new one from another manufacturer.

All of the new toilets on display are 1.28GPF. I have a 2400 gal septic tank, with about a 40' run of 6" pipe from the house to the tank. It requires water to work properly. Even if the toilet flushes, without a certain volume of water, the solids won't make it all the way to the septic tank.

As is usually the case, the object of my current rage is the federal government, and their "one size fits all" mandates. The low flush toilets are great for city dwellers, but not for people like me. Issues like this should be handled on the state and local level, and written into local codes....................not dictated by federal mandate.

Right now, the toilet is flushing, but still a little slow. I'll give it a few days, and if it's still not working exactly right, I'll go spend the six bucks on the larger diameter, tank to bowl union, along with the larger flapper valve.

If I ever do have to purchase a new toilet, I'll likely be ordering it from Canada. Somehow, their government seems to have managed to retain a little common sense.

I'm surprised you reduced the volume of the tank with that bottle given the extent of the pipe to your septic. The volume of water spreads out and once the solids haven't enough push behind them, they stay put (I had a ranch with similar plumbing issues but am now in the city).

Yes, when it comes to such things, our brain-dead zealots in Washington are collectively like an Inverse King Midas - everything they touch turns to shit.

I reduced the amount of water volume in the tank, but not the volume per flush, since it was set up for a half flush anyway. The new flapper is a step in the right direction, since the "open" time can be easily adjusted up or down. I think I've already made up my mind to go get the larger diameter orifice and flapper valve. That will increase the trajectory of the water as it enters the bowl, and, (I believe), give me a nice flush every time.

I have a Gerber with no flap valve. (I understand The White House has them, too) It has a 1.6 gallon hydraulic accumulator which stores the water at line pressure (40 psi?) It doesn't "flush". Rather, it blasts off, like a rocket, and it works great! The output bore is a bit small, so cats, tennis balls, and such need to be dismembered, but mere sewage doesn't stand a chance. It also refills very quickly.

Thanks for the info.

Note to self: Cut cat up first.

Okay, here's the plan. I'm not going to bypass customer service.

If the rude young lady that I spoke to on the phone, is any indication of how AS runs their customer service department, I think an email exchange is in order. We'll get started on Monday morning.

Once I have solid documentation, as to the general attitude at AS toward the customer, then I will go to the venture capital firm and present it. Last I heard, VC firms don't like losing propositions.

Persistence, Persistence, Persistence. That's the key.

Let them know that you have all the time in the world, and will take as much as is needed to get what you want, or make them look like uncaring profit mongers.

Calm and polite. It won't take long. I've never lost against someone that has ripped me off.

Besides, anyone that runs a business like that, doesn't deserve to exist.

Assuming they do the right thing, I will more than happy to tell everyone what a great company they are.

If I wanted garbage, I'd just shop at LYNDOOR^®.

Thanks for the kind words. At LynDoor™Ind. our garbage is second to none!

And you're honest about it.

Our local garbage hauler has the slogan,

Satisfaction guaranteed or double your trash back!

I'm also of the persuasion that you changed the flow pattern. Another thing is the beeswax ring at the bottom. At work they changed a leaking one, and put in one with a reducer plastic that is supposed to help stop leaks. That caused a noticeable less efficient flushing action because of the reduced diameter of the "exit hole". Also, the flapper should not be straight. It had a lot of trouble with mine not closing right until I angled it properly. Yours may not be angled enough.

Thanks SG. I just had the toilet out a couple of weeks ago, all of the plumbing and wax gasket is new. I'll never get that day back.

Now it's just a matter of focusing my rage into a new toilet. AS has put considerable effort into eliminating any mention of this particular model, on the internet.

They will send me a coupon for a new, state of the art AS toilet. They just don't know it yet.

I'll keep you guys posted.

That was my advice, too. What I do in these situations is first flush the toilet with just water, it usually flushes. Then I put a whole bunch of paper in it and see what happens. If it clogs, I snake. Usually find a toy or something stuck in the loop. Impossible to see, usually from either end, that loop is way up there.

Yep. That was one of my first thoughts. However, if I a take a pitcher of water and dump it into the bowl, it flushes right down, even if clogged.

It does work a little better with the bottle of water in there, but still not acceptable. Since the girl at customer service acknowledged that at least two models were known for clogging, I'm pretty sure I have one of them. It had problems from the day I installed it.

There's a lot more to toilet science than I ever imagined. Right down to the shape and size of the tank and bowl. As tempting as it is to keep on tweaking on it, and seeing if I can get the perfect flush, it's time to give up.

I talked to a professional plumber a couple of weeks ago, on one of my jobs. He too, knew about these AS toilets, and told me that as far as he knew, there wasn't a way to make them work right.

i don't wnt to go modelling 3D liquid flow with no exact input data but your system might work due the nonlinear dynamics / starting conditions / that define an "irregular twisted" flow system ... blah blah blah ... where the the bottle position may have a crucial role in say µm scale ... ((what the sh¡t you flush down there you need the increased flow rates for ))

Had a 50+ year old toilet that had a big time flushing problem.

It had been 30 years since the sewer lines had been rodded out, so had that done. No help.

Pulled the toilet & found 3/8 inch scale from hard water. Used acid to to get rid of the scale & checked for other obstructions, good to go. Reinstalled toilet with a nice large wax seal. Still had the flushing problem.

Had heard about problems with new low volume toilets & did not want to go there.

Pulled the toilet again rechecked every thing (bore scope),All ok. Replaced the flusher & flap valve. Reinstalled the the Toilet & still had problems.

Did not want to go to Canada for a new toilet (hi volume flush) so purchased a KOHLER. Works great, no problems at all ,little crap, large crap, hard crap, soft crap, wads of paper. The Kohler flushes it all.

Will it clog if sanitary napkins are dumped into it?.

We're on septic. I banned that practice immediately.

Toto toilets are nice, but have you considered a Dyson?

Good one. I could probably fix this one by either opening up the tank to toilet hole to 3", or extending the tank higher from the toilet, by about a foot.

Unfortunately, when I embark on projects like that, the wife tends to get visibly upset.