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Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/17/2013 10:15 PM

This bolt is used to hold a electric motor together. I can make a socket but would prefer to purchase one if possible. I believe the motor is made in Germany.

Any ideas? I cannot find a socket using conventional Internet search engines.

The raised tab is approximately 2.77 by 6 mm or 109 by 234 thousandths of an inch.

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#1

Re: Help locating a socket for a strange bolt head

01/17/2013 10:24 PM

GATOR GRIP UNIVERSAL SOCKETOnline Item # 0000000030981SKU: 005110275

$9.99

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: Help locating a socket for a strange bolt head

01/17/2013 10:59 PM

By the specifications, it appears to be too large both in O.D. and in grip capability. The tab is less than 1/4" long and only 1/10 inch wide.

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#2

Re: Help locating a socket for a strange bolt head

01/17/2013 10:31 PM

A small adjustable wrench and a small pipe wrench could be used alternately for successive 90° turns.

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#4
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Re: Help locating a socket for a strange bolt head

01/17/2013 10:55 PM

No space to use wrenches and I've removed a couple of these bolts on another motor. They are really torqued in place (or thread locker had been used).

So I think I need a 'real' socket, even if I have to make it myself.

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#3

Re: Help locating a socket for a strange bolt head

01/17/2013 10:47 PM

I do hate to put this in the collection of "been there, done that" parables but this does fit. (pardon the pun) While I've fabricated many tools to fit proprietary hardware and software, I've rarely ended such tasks with a good feeling, let alone with anything that worked properly afterwards.

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#6

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/17/2013 11:13 PM

An 8-point socket, if the right size can be found, would grip pretty well.

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#8
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 12:05 AM

I have both metric and Imperial sockets in 6 and 12 point form. Nothing fits well enought to be able to unscrew the bolts. Now if I could find metric in .5 mm over, maybe. The rounded ends prevent a tight-fitting sockets from sliding down over the tab.

It is easy if time-consuming to mill a slot to fit over the tab and then cut a hex on the other end so I can drive the socket with a standard socket and ratchet or breaker-bar.

I can probably make it from a piece of 4130 steel and not have to harden it.

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#46
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/23/2013 5:03 PM

Love my old 8 point set.

Sure made the sheeting jobs easier when I could use my impact gun to tighten the square nuts on the carriage through bolts when hanging earth quake sheeting in the bay area rafters. All the other guys worked to hard with their crescent wrenches.

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#7

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/17/2013 11:50 PM

Been there, done that.

Bought a Nespresso coffee maker that had a problem. Went to take it apart, and found it was assembled with tiny metric screws with heads like that. I was lucky in that my screws were small, and I was able to remove all but one with small vice grips. I looked for weeks, and never found any drive tools for them. I bought three different boxes of 100 screws to replace the originals.

For your needs, I would suggest finding a machine shop willing to make that reverse pattern in an Appropriate sized allen bit. Then you will be able to put that bit into any socket to drive it, or use a wrench on the bit. I think I would try to use a 3/8 bit, or go to a 1/2" bit if 3/8 is too small. Good luck.

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#15
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:38 AM

I have a machine shop so I'll probably just take a bar of 4130 steel and mill a closed slot in one end and a hex head on the other that I can drive with a socket.

These bolts are very special in their length as well as their head so replacing them could be an expensive, if not impossible job unless I made my own.

If I make the socket, then I can continue to use the bolts as-is.

BTW, this motor is the main drive motor for a Frigidaire front loading clothes washer. Had I known, at the time of purchase, that it was made in Germany, I might have chosen another brand as this motor isn't the only difficult to service and find repair parts unit in the washer. Same thing applies to a Bosch dish washer that failed after 3 years. The available repair parts were twice as expensive as those for an American-made brand and limited in availability.

Bit of warning: This washing machine is the bottom unit of a stacked set of washer and dryer. If I don't fix the washer, I might have to replace both units to get another set that will stack safely. So consider the issue when you buy stacking sets. You are stuck with exact replacements of each appliance or complete replacement of the set. I live in earthquake country so a locked-together stack is important.

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#16
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:48 AM

I'll bet Andy Germany is sitting back laughing at us now, just waiting to sell us these darn odd sockets an inflated prices.

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#9

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 3:18 AM

Hi mrehmus,

Have you considered a piece of round bar the same diameter as the head of the bolt with a slot across the end to fit the tang

Best regards,

John

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#10

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 3:25 AM

hex bar with a slot cut in it will work better than trying to use a socket on it.
You can always glue a bit of thin sheet or tube round the slotted end to stop it slipping off the head. the hex end can then be turned with your fave' tool of choice.
Del

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#13
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 10:51 AM

Good approach.

I have quite a few sockets that I have modified for fittings like this and others. In this one, the shape at the end radius is not very important, because all the stress is taken at the corner where the flats start to form the end radius. (In fact, in any wrench, the load is essentially point loading, which Snap-On recognized long ago when they started making sockets which are not the shape of the bolt they fit. Instead, they move the point load away from the corners and in a little onto the flat: flank drive, they called it.)

I'd take a socket, grind all around the end to remove the chrome and produce a little bevel, then braze on two little bars of steel, to make a slot across the socket end that fits the screw head. Then grind off the bar edges back to the socket diameter. 10 minutes.

Back when I could see and hold my hands steady, I could do something (almost) this small with TIG. Now, I'd just vaporize the socket in the attempt.

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#11

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 8:34 AM

Some shops can burn/laser that precise shape in a disk and then weld that disk to your favourite drive.

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#12

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 9:01 AM

If there is room I might try chucking 4 finishing nails together in the jaws of a hand held drill maybe with a bit of tape to keep them together. Then I'd force the nail tips down around that tab and see if I could unscrew it that way using the drill. Quick and simple.

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#14

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:35 AM

I'd drill into the shaft and use whatever tools you have to stop the shaft from spinning as you take the nut off the other side, if the nut is more internal just turn the shaft and back it out, replace with a standard head/thread you can also file 2 flat spots on the shaft or bolt head and make them wrench pads

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#19
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 1:08 PM

A nut on the other end would be great. Unfortunately, the other end is threaded directly into the end casting.

And there are 4 of these bolts and two of them are halfway down the length of the motor and in deep wells of limited bore size.

I think these motors were designed to be cheaply assembled with no consideration for disassembly.

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#17

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:50 AM

I was thinking "What the heck are these things called." Knowing the name would make finding a socket much easier.

I found this site, which does not give a name (or picture) of this type, but is interesting, nevertheless, tracing the development of numerous screw heads.

This is driving me nuts. If you look at images of machine screw heads in Google, you see plenty of different types (some of which I have not seen in application) but not these (which I have seen in application).

For some proprietary heads (like the weird pentalobe screws on Apple computers) the wrenches are intentionally very hard to get. I suppose these fall into that category.

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#18
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 1:04 PM

Security. Sure. Better be damn sure no one tampers with coffee makers or washing machine motors. National security at risk.

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#20
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 1:11 PM

I can find no picture on-line of this type of bolt head.

Security screw drivers are hard to find from the 'proper' sites and they require a signed statement that the buyer will not make the bits available to other people.

However, one can buy a full assortment of security bits for 10 bucks on the Internet.

When I asked Frigidaire for a maintenance manual, they said the manual was restricted because of liability issues. But I can purchase a manual from on-line parts suppliers.

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#23
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 10:43 PM

Take a small piece of pipe. Hit the end with a hammer. It should then fit the head of your bolt.

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#21

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 5:13 PM

When I asked Frigidaire for a maintenance manual, they said the manual was restricted because of liability issues.

That's the bonkersness of modern life. Some idiot decides it's safer to NOT give you the very information which would make your task safer.
I had a similar situation with Dyson, I wanted to replace the mains lead which had failed in the cable retract mechanism.
Their 'help line' (a missnomer if ever there was) wouldn't tell me how to get the wheels off so that I could access the vital screw to open the beast, despite me telling them I design electronics for a living.

You prize out the central yellow plug and then pull 'em off.
I E-mailed them to tell them this with the comment 'how hard would it have been to tell me that?'

IMO It should be compulsory to make the full manual available.
Del

PS. I now boycott Dyson products and suggest you do the same (especially as they moved their production overseas from the UK)

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#22
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 5:24 PM

That's mechanical. It's a different department altogether.

It's in another country, too but they have translators.

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#30
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/19/2013 6:38 AM

Dell,

a great pity that you had a problem with Dyson and their "helpline" - I am anxious that their products see a bigger market - at least their engineers would then see a bigger return on their efforts.

Did you write to the top man? That usuallly does the trick and is often a wake up call to any organisation.

After all it is rarely an engineer that is slowing a company down.

Good Luck

Sleepy.

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#24

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 10:49 PM

The picture is hard to see, but it appears that the protruding part is a regular oval. In that case, the head is known as a "Double-D", and the socket should be available at any auto parts store. It will be called a "Strut Socket", and it is used to hold the end of the strut's piston rod while the nut is tightened/loosened. This is a typical picture. They come in different sizes, so be sure to get the right one.

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#25
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:00 PM

You are right. I had completely forgotten about these. I even have two of them. The little ones on my coffee maker were tiny, like cell phone screw tiny. GA though.

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#26
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:04 PM

I would bet that an electric motor for a washing machine will have "more-reasonably-sized" screws -- and heads -- than a coffee maker. "Engineer's hammers" usually weigh about three pounds; leave the tiny stuff to the technicians. ;-)

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#28
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:23 PM

If you need something smaller than you can get locally, I'm pretty sure that Snap-On has 'em in more sizes.

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#29
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:52 PM

Thank you. Off I go tomorrow!

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#32
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/19/2013 10:14 AM

Good luck finding one small enough.

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#27

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/18/2013 11:17 PM

I would just use a Razr blade to cut a slot in a 1/4" drive extension. I'd also try to heat the threaded portion with a heavy soldering iron, and severely tap the head.

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#31

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/19/2013 10:13 AM

Just cut it off and replace it with a conventional hex-head bolt. The only reason for using such a bolt is to know if it's been worked on elsewhere by someone without the "proper" tools. Hex-socket head bolts should work just fine on a DIY repair job.

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#34
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/19/2013 10:56 AM

This would be my approach if I really had to do this.

I would also measure the exposed thread pitch and diameter and identify that I can get replacement hardware before trying to remove these bolts using any method. Far too often I've buggered parts that were not meant to be removed when I tried to remove them anyway. This is obviously a bolt that was not meant to be removed.

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#36
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/19/2013 12:37 PM

The only reason for using such a bolt is to know if it's been worked on elsewhere by someone without the "proper" tools.


The standard reason for fittings like this is to make it very difficult to make small repairs to large parts. This is of huge economic advantage to the manufacturer. Far lower inventory to stock and track, and far higher profit from selling (for instance) an $80 master cylinder instead of the $.50 seal that has worn out.

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#33

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/19/2013 10:54 AM

How about cutting a .109" wide slot into the end of a #6 or #8 bolt head and driving it and your fastener with a 1/4" socket?

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#35
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/19/2013 10:59 AM

Much too practical.

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#41
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/21/2013 5:55 PM

Not enough room around the bolt head.

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#37

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/21/2013 10:57 AM

Personally, I would take my angle cutterand cut the four bastard bolts off and replace them with something more servicable.

Done it a few times with excellent and repeatable results changing from bastard bolts to us standard or metric. your choice.

Now for a real challenge, go for the last two spark plugs on an AMC pacer 6 cylinder without the special shop tool......

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#38

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/21/2013 3:40 PM

Kudos to Ed (#24 above).

If you don't have the time to locate the socket. You may want to just cut a slot in the end of standard 3/8" extension. The only concern I would have is that if the bolt is really tight, the two halves might tend to spread. For that reason, I would not cut the slot any deeper than necessary.

Good luck.

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#39
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/21/2013 4:08 PM

I am in the process of making a socket to fit the bolt head. Only enough space for a 3/8" diameter rod (which is probably why they are using this head design although I would have used a SHCS instead).

I'm cutting the slot in the end of a 3/8" 12L14 steel rod and I'll form a hex on the other end, probably around a 1/4" hex will work.

I'll post the results later in the day.

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#40
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/21/2013 5:53 PM

Rotor, Socket and Bolt

OK, machined the socket and the 4 bolts came right out. In fact, 3 of them weren't all too tight and the 4th was merely tight. Bad QC, Germany.

I milled a 5/16" hex on the opposite end and drove the shop-made socket with a 5/16", 3/8" socket and ratchet.

Looks like I can turn the armature at least once before it is a goner. The bearings are in bad shape too so I'll have to hope they are available in the U.S. Fortunately they have their numbers engraved on the shields.

Now I have to make a puller to get the brown disk off the end of the rotor without damage. It is part of the motor speed sensor and I am certain if I bugger it up, the game is over.

Thanks for all the suggestions, this is a great forum and great participants.

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#42
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/22/2013 12:44 AM

Nice job.

Wow, that commutator looks badly worn. I hope there is enough left to work with. It is great to see people fixing things designed to be quickly and cheaply assembled and then thrown away after a few years.

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#43
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/22/2013 11:29 AM

Thanks for keeping everyone informed. When feedback is provided, we all benefit from your experience.

Since the bearing is known to be in bad shape, you might consider just pulling on the bearing and clear everything off the end of the shaft at the same time.

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#44
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/22/2013 12:33 PM

Turned commutator, not undercut. Notice the voids in the 3 segments, the only 3 on the rotor. The outboard void is not in the brush path. I'll smooth the 2 centerline segments with a Riffler file. More poor QC.

Bearings have been pulled and the commutator turned. Had to make a few fixtures to get the bearings off without damaging the speed sensor and the pulley. I can probably turn the commutator one more time before it is worn out. The commutator isn't bad considering the washing machine has run once a day for 14 years, with 3 sets of replacement brushes installed. I knew it needed turning at the last brush replacement and that set lasted but 6 months. But I was recovering from heart surgery and not ready to crawl around on the floor pulling the motor since the brushes can be replaced from the front with a couple of screws apiece for the brush holders. Much better than walking the washer/dryer stack out from the wall and removing everything on the back so I could remove the 4 motor mount screws that are buried in the machine.

Now I have to undercut the commutator to remove any shorts and bring the insulator down below the copper a bit then use an ohmmeter to check that there are no segment to segment shorts. I've already checked to insure there are no grounded elements in the rotor.

No response from the brush suppliers as of yet so I may have to make another set of brushes and install them.

This whole project is kind of fun. The Navy taught me how to do this but, being an electronics technician and working on nuclear submarine instrumentation (way back when), they didn't give us much opportunity to do a motor restoration and the electricians would have gotten the job anyway. I wonder if, when I get done and the motor is back in operation, the commutator segments will become the 'choclate brown' the Navy insisited was an indicator of a healthy motor.

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#45
In reply to #40

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/22/2013 12:40 PM

Nice tool!

Mark that ring and shaft alignment before you pull it. It looks to me that you should be able to safely pull the bearing and have the ring come with it.

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#47
In reply to #45

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/25/2013 9:29 PM

Getting down to the finish now.

Since all potential suppliers do not yet have this brush in stock, I built a pair. When I install them, I will evaluate their performance and may replace them with a commercial set when those are available next month.

In the meantime, here are the pictures of the brushes:

Before using silver epoxy to attach the pigtails to the brush. note the tips of the pigtails have been cleaned.

After applying the silver-filled epoxy. As difficult as it was to get the epoxy into the 0.11" bores, I should have drilled cross-holes to allow air to escape.

However, the resistance of the brushes, end-to-end is 1.1 ohms and the resistance of the pigtail to brush connection is 0.4 ohms. I think that will be OK.

Now I just need to wait 5 hours for the epoxy to cure.

I used a 3D CAD program to draw the brushes as they would appear in the 1" diameter bar of carbon I started with. I used the dimensions to set the mill up for the cuts. I still have about 8 inches of bar left so if the motor had more life in the commutator (which it does not) I could keep going.

The motor reassembled except for the brush holders. I torqued the 5mm x 0.8 screws into the aluminum castings with 30 inch-pounds of torque. Seems to be more than the torque they had when I disassembled the motor and is about correct for this combination.

I did switch to sealed bearings instead of shielded bearings. The old shielded set were brinnelled because (I think) carbon dust got into the races.

I made the socket from 12L14 (Leadloy) steel thinking that if it couldn't handle the stress, I would make it from a chrome-moly steel and heat treat it. 30 inch-pounds of torque doesn't need high-strength steel.

The black voids in the copper are actually places where the copper has come off the underlying insulator. When the motor fails the next time, it will be time to buy a replacement although I could epoxy new copper segments in place I suppose. Nah.

http://eurtonelectric.com/, by the way, has not only brushes (next month) for this motor but a replacement rotors and stators for this particular motor. Reasonable prices maybe but a new rotor is $138 which is more than the price for a new motor.

Still, Eurton is a place to get anything from a sewing machine motor to a really BIG motor repaired or to buy most any motor replacement part. I only found out about these folks today from a retired electrician friend. Wouldn't have changed how this tale turns out but it is good to know someone out there will still fix electric motors at a reasonable price.

Total cost - $26.26 for bearings, probably $2 for the carbon rod and more time than is reasonable except for the experience and fun of fixing something that is a throw-away. I could have purchased the bearings from Eurton for about $15.00 but shipping would have eaten the price difference between them and the bearing company.

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/26/2013 4:49 PM

It LIVES!

No arcs or sparks, quiet operation. A little bit of brush noise at the fastest spin speed but that will probably disappear with a little more break-in.

I filed and sanded the brushes into an approximation of the commutator radius.

Thanks for all the input.

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#49
In reply to #48

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/26/2013 4:54 PM

Congratulations!

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#50
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

01/29/2013 8:48 AM

Ahh. The sweet smell of success.

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#51
In reply to #48

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

06/10/2013 11:04 PM

Just an update to say the motor is still working well and it has been well worked!

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#52
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

09/18/2013 11:45 PM

A brush was pulled away from the commutator by a short pigtail (original length). So I made another set of brushes, remembering to drill cross holes to let air escape from the pigtail holes in the brushes. This set of brushes are better behaved than the last set for some reason.

Anyway, the commutator looks like it did when I reinstalled the motor the last time so maybe there is life for a while longer.

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#53
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Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

05/23/2014 10:37 PM

Well, the motor finally wiped out the commutator as I knew it would. I thought for about 5 minutes of machining a new one and then said nah!

Turns out the motor price dropped to $116 from $150 or so.

The new motor, which looks identical to the old motor does run the washer faster in spin mode. So the conductivity of the brushes and the silver-bearing epoxy were apparently not as good as new brushes.

But new challenges have arisen with an over-the-stove microwave that stopped operating and a gas oven that will not ignite. Never boring, is it?

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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Help Locating a Socket for a Strange Bolt Head

05/24/2014 7:33 AM

I thank you for keeping us up to date on this motor repair. You performed an excellent repair. I'm sorry and surprised to see the repaired motor lasted just over a year with the careful work you performed. How long did the original motor last?

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