Is This the Right Room For an Argument

So, the Black Knight has issued his challenge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKhEw7nD9C4

Aw, come on, pony up. Anon is for those who ............have no sense of self?

I have a few........ hope I don't get in over my head..........

What is the difference between God and a social worker?

God doesn't pretend to be a social worker.

I think it's funny......

I have read the Old Testament too. Social worker God ain't.

Lyn,

You have a solid point. I have trouble expressing myself to the rational mind at times. I get emotional. Really, I am aware of this and struggle with it daily at times.

I was simply trying to illustrate for those still stuck in the past that the old storage solutions are no longer and never really were viable solutions. I lost a good friend on 9/11 at the Pentagon. So for me, that kind of attack is not in the realm of fantasy. Yeah, on 9/10/01 it was. After 9/11/01, it wasn't.

I wake up each morning thanking God that terrorists seem to come from the shallow end of the intelligence pool for the most part. The fear, as poster Hurd pointed out, is that right now a good deal of spent fuel is sitting relatively unprotected on-sight at the plants.

I used Fukushima as a good example of how even smart people, when faced with this kind of problem are struggling to find a safe sane solution. Sure, placing the spent fuel in building three (if I remember right) in a pool of water solved the immediate problem of what to do with the spent fuel. That they of all people, with their history did not even consider the possibility of tsunami or earthquake in that solution is, well troubling to put it mildly.

We have similar problems in this country in our on-sight storage of spent fuel from plants that are running or have been decommissioned. It used to be that those facilities were a long way from civilization. Not so much today. Our containment structures were never designed to take the impact of a fully fueled and loaded AB380 and most folks I have talked to agree that they would not.

I am trying to illustrate that the technology we are relying on is not up to the challenges posed by the world we live in today. A new and different approach needs to be developed and implemented before some wacko figures out that they don't have to build a dirty bomb, all they need is a big plane and a prevailing westerly to wipe out NYC.

Can you imagine what that would look like? How would you even begin to attack that kind of disaster? How could you evacuate? If you live on the East coast and can't evacuate to the West what are we going to do?

Just because the thought is disturbing does not mean someone else hasn't had it and is, at this moment, trying to make it reality.

I think that is the advantage of my background, I have learned that humans are incredibly creative and virtually unstoppable when they want something bad enough. I imagine there are more than a few native Americans who would agree with me on this point.

On a completely different note, but in the vein of smart people being dumb this has been my week so far. Up at 3am so I can teleconference with colleagues in Europe and try to stop a very expensive disaster from coming to America.

Right now I am trying desperately not to call out a colleague on his stupidity and am running out of options. You don't purchase a non-refrigerated ribbon blender for mixing frozen pellets that have to be kept at -40c. I am good, but even I can't make that work.

Thanks for the input.

So sorry - the length of that post exceded my attention span.

I had to give you a GA as soon as I woke up from trying to read that.......

Let me break it down some to the meat and potatoes,....."Something, something ... About a point"

yep, that about covers it.

phoenix911 wrote:

Let me break it down some to the meat and potatoes,....."Something, something ... About a point"

yep, that about covers it.

Rhetorical I assume?

So sorry - the length of that post exceded my attention span.

Yeah, I'm seeing that alot so it is obviously something I need to work on.

Thanks

Tom_Consulting Wrote:

So sorry - the length of that post exceded my attention span.

No apology necessary, I am getting that a lot so it is obviously something I need to look at.

I work for a retired Navy Commander. He calls me Professor and is constantly telling me to be succinct. It's a struggle, but I am becoming a better communicator because of him.

First, let me say that your typing skills, and your ability to use tons of words, when a few pounds would do the trick, may be exaggerating your sense of loss of control of the technical aspects of the discussion.

Sure, we're opinionated. I spouted off about GMO's the other day and was soundly thrashed for it. Justifiably.

"Just the facts", don't always prevail in these discussions, indeed, most of the time we do digress, long after the proper solution has been posed.

It's an artifact of this type of forum. Have you ever known an engineer to say, "there, that's good enough". I never have. You have to nail a foot to the floor and say, OK, let's leave this problem and move on.

Incompetence and laziness drive me crazy. I don't see much of either in the members that stick around here.

Well, the old clock on the wall, says it's beer thirty. OK I don't have a clock on the wall, and I NEVER know what time it really is because I have 3 clocks (un-synchronized) in my office.

I go with the one whose numbers I like best.

Cheers.

It's an artifact of this type of forum. Have you ever known an engineer to say, "there, that's good enough". I never have. You have to nail a foot to the floor and say, "OK, let's leave this problem and move on."

When I was in a straight project, non-process position, one of the project managers told me, "There comes a time in every project when you have to shoot the engineer and start the plotter."

Thanks Lyn,

I am getting good feed back and that is always the foundation for growth. I really appreciate it.

Passingtongreen:

First I really appreciate your reasoned response.

I can understand where the statistics lead and the conclusions that can be drawn from them. I work in a business that claims to be all about safety and yet allows unsafe practices and equipment to be used daily. Why, because it hasn't cost them any money yet and it would to correct the issue. One law suit changes everything,......for awhile and then as you noted, the managers get involved and well......

But anyway numbers don't lie and I sure as hell am not dumb enough to argue that. I use them every day. The extreme nature of todays terrorism when compared to say something you are more familiar with, the IRA, is striking. The attacks are becoming more effective and the number of casualties is climbing per incident. To not do everything in our power to address these known possiblities is, in my opinion, being unrealisitic. That's all I am saying. I am not sure why the concept is so difficult for me to get across but apparently it is.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

"...Our containment structures were never designed to take the impact of a fully fueled and loaded AB380...", looks like you're just mouthing what other uninformed people have said without doing any checking/thinking for yourself.

From the latest NRC regs dated June 9, 2009: "...(2) Aircraft impact characteristics.¹ The assessment must be based on the beyond-design-basis impact of a large, commercial aircraft used for long distance flights in the United States, with aviation fuel loading typically used in such flights, and an impact speed and angle of impact considering the ability of both experienced and inexperienced pilots to control large, commercial aircraft at the low altitude representative of a nuclear power plant's low profile..."

If you and your friends believe that a 1.8m thick wall built like this:

will allow anything other than a purpose built hardened military munition to penetrate it, then maybe you should consider what this post 9/11 study has to say about the relative difficulty of using an aircraft built of lightweight materials to strike a typical containment dome or spent fuel pool:

"...Typical Characteristics of Analyzed Structures

The structures that are the subject of this report are considerably smaller than the World Trade Center and Pentagon buildings that were attacked by terrorists on Sept.11, 2001. Moreover, it is unlikely that a terrorist pilot could strike nuclear plant structures at the conservative impact points assumed in the analyses. The figure below provides a perspective of the size of nuclear power plant structures relative to the World Trade Center and Pentagon..." (Unfortunately i couldn't get the picture through the CR4 system so you'll have to look at page 5 to see the graphic)

The above study was conducted using a 767-400 (450,000 lbs max takeoff weight, 156 ft wingspan, 2 engines 9,050 lb, 105 in dia.) which is dwarfed by the A380-800 (1,200,000 lbs mtow, 262 ft wingspan, 4 engines 14,080 lbs, 124 inch dia.). It is important to note that the wingspans of both planes are greater than the typical containment building width of 140 ft, making it impossible to concentrate the force of the entire mass into a single point on the building. Certainly your friends don't believe that the plane or an engine has much of a chance against approximately 62,000,000 lbs of concrete reinforced with 2.25 inch rebar, surrounding a 0.5 inch thick, 2,000,000 lb steel containment vessel?

Check out the pictures in this article to see what it took to destroy the Maine Yankee containment building. There are certainly less hardened, more vulnerable infrastructure problems for you to point your lance at.

RAM,

Sorry I've not responded. You wrote a good piece and I felt obligated out of respect to read and understand it before responding. A reply is coming good sir, you were not forgotten. Oh and thanks for taking the time, it is really appreciated.

Ram;

I was going to try and be brief, I failed.

First, I thank you for taking the time and putting all the information out there.

I am not going to argue the numbers. What I am going to point out is something we all learned on 9/11, we all learned at Fukushima, the numbers do not take into account all the variables. They can but who has the time? Ah, we do.

Our best/cost effective design is not capable of handling the real world as we know it today. I never said they were incorrect. Reality proved that argument moot. All I did was point to it and say look here.

The twin towers were thought to be safe from collapse due to aircraft strike. They were built the best we could for the money. The numbers "proved" that.

OOPS

Fukushima was thought to be able to withstand severe earthquake and Tsunami. As you pointed out elaborately, that is how they were designed. All true.

Consider please Tsunami is a Japanese word. They really do know this phenomena better than almost anyone.

Sadly, the towers collasped, and Fuku damn near melted down. I didn't make either of these events up.

One direct point that I noticed was missing in your post. You may be unaware that at Fuku the system failed because there was not enough redundancy. Containment was not breached by the Tsunami or the earthquake but by the reactors themselves when the cooling and shut down system failed.

The other point I can't stress enough is that demonstrated by the nuclear fire in building 3. Instead of even trying to properly store the spent fuel, they simply tossed it in a pool of water. Sure it was alot easier and way cheaper than dealing with government regulators or all the public hearings and NIMBY stuff they would have had to deal with had they attempted to move it off site and contain it properly. In otherwords, they took short cuts and "cost effective" measures over proper handling and public safety. Of course we don't have any of that kind of problem in the good ol USofA right?

A jetliner may not breach a containment vessel, we will never know that for sure until someone actually does it. For me, in light of Fuku, the question is how well will the support systems necessary to control the reactor work in a huge burning pool of Jet A and debris, when no one can get to them and what safe guards are in place on spent fuel storage facilities when subjected to the same level of destruction? Is that a question we really want answered the hard way?

You see good sir, I wasn't trying to "prove" anything.

I am asking a very serious question. What I am asking is, "Is this really the best we can do?" Really?

Originally I used the term arrogance, but now that I think on it more the term hubris is a better fit.

As for your last statement I couldn't agree more. Had 9/11 involved a professional football game....... I don't even want to think about that one.

The mother of a friend was depressed so she sat in her chair watching the soap operas. The soap operas became a large part of her world. Soap operas are depressing. She watched them because she was depressed and they reinforced her depression because she was watching and involved in them.

I have thought for a long time that terrorism will never end if we rely on experts, their job/livelihood depends on finding indications of what might be terrorism. There will always be things that might be indications of terrorism.

You sir, look for risks, no particular type of risk, no particular level of risk, just risk. You are not swayed by statistics that show that the risk to any individual is virtually nonexistent. If you continue to look for and continuously contemplate risks, they are all you will see. Search for and study something positive and/or reassuring.

There is me being a psychiatrist when I have said that anyone who even thinks about seeing a shrink needs his head examined.

You wrote, "I love nothing better than a good reasoned debate."

No you don't.

Anonymous-Hero wrote:

No you don't.

Yes I do!

wink wink nudge nudge

QED :)

TCMTECH, did you just watch this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

tcmtech wrote:

The room for a good argument is down the stairs and to the left.

This is the room for belittlement and smackdowns.

Reply:

I opened the door and invited all comers so I gets what walks in eh? Its all on me.

How can you say that you want an argument when you haven't paid.

Unfocused verbosity is not an argument, it is baffling with bull$61t.

Don't get me wrong. I certainly can appreciate a good long rant to let off some personal steam and frustrations. I don't pretend that a rant will convince anyone. Usually I do feel better after a rant but it is just for me to enjoy.

redfred wrote:

How can you say that you want an argument when you haven't paid.

I'm not familiar with that reference. Paid?

As for the amount of words, I seem to use too few or too many. Thanks for the input. I'll work on it.

" I even enjoy a good unreasoned debate."

Ok, Madison Wisconsin, that explains it all, a cheese head.

For no reason at all, your neighbor, from Detroit Michigan.

All kidding aside, your issues with stupid people, are my issues too. They escorted my boss out of the shop Division company Thursday for thinking way to far out of the box all the time, complicating all of my projects to the point of making them un-doable, even with good duct tape.

Do not think MADISON (aka, Madistan) is like the rest of Wisconsin.....,

Excuse me, this is the room to get offended, isn't it?

No cheese in Madison?? How about beer? no wait, that's Milwaukee. what the heck is in Madison?

13 months ago it was public sector union protestors at the state capital.

And Badger Football

And you can buy beer all over the state.

phoenix911 wrote:

Do not think MADISON (aka, Madistan) is like the rest of Wisconsin.....,

Offended, no not in the least. I moved here for that very reason.

Here we call it 77square!

77 square miles of Wisconsin surrounded by reality!

JPool wrote:

" I even enjoy a good unreasoned debate."

Ok, Madison Wisconsin, that explains it all, a cheese head.

For no reason at all, your neighbor, from Detroit Michigan.

Yep, that's me with that stupid looking thing on my head.

Go Pack Go

Been trying to get over to that side of the lake for a few years now, just can't seem to get away from this place.

SE just called you fat...

However I am at a loss as to explain why a social worker needs to blend pellets, and what type of pellets need to be maintained at -40c...?

ones that keep beer and cheese cold???? Can't think of anything else good that comes from Wisconsin. Other than happy cows....

I thought the happy cows were from California!?

Trust me, Happy cows were in Wisconsin, then they moved to California. They were doing the Midwest (Wisconsin) happy cows about 5 years before the California happy cows. I think the cows got sick of the snow and moved on....

California cow. Notice that your milk tastes funny?

Ron, I hate it when you came back from your break.....put some pants on.......

No you're thinking of happy wino's.....

http://thehappywinos.blogspot.com/

Now I thought that was California.

Hey, watch it! We have some of the finest wineries here in the land of fruits and nuts.

Seriously, we just got back from a beautiful trip to Los Olivos for ... you guessed it, wine tasting. If you get a chance to try some Ken Brown Chardonnay or Pinot Noir, do it. We picked up a single vineyard 2009 Pinot Noir that was a dark as a Zin and nearly as big as a Syrah, but still complex and oh what a nose! He's the Ken Brown from Zaca Mesa and previous owner of Byron. An absolute magic man!

Oh, and if we're going to digress, Richard Sanford no longer owns Sanford Winery, but he is listed as one of the owners of Alma Rosa winery. The gal working the wine tasting let us in at 3 minutes to closing - very rare after the movie Sideways brought the party goers to the area. We tasted some very impressive wines and we took home some good Pinot Blanc.

Finally, we hit our good old friend Bridlewood. Come to find out that Gallo bought them and of course changed things. They had five bottles of their 2007 Syrah blend called English Pleasure which we grabbed, along with a pretty nice 2011 Viognier Reserve (half case).

Alisal Cellars is gone. Richard Sanford isn't with Sanford Winery. Bridlewood is owned by Gallo. Good old Los Olivos is no longer the sleepy little secret AVA.

Oh yeah, we finished off the trip with a stop at Cold Springs Tavern in the hills behind Santa Barbara - an old 1886 stage coach stop and now a restaurant and bar (the bars the fun place) and a trip to La Super Rica for an incredible dinner - it's a hole in the wall on Milpas Street. A line out the door, the most artery clogging plate known to man - a bowl of cheese and bacon, where you scoop the delicious mix out of the bowl and dump it on a home made corn tortilla, throw a little hot sauce and bite into heaven!

Ya know SE, I have woke up these last three mornings asking myself that very same question. LOL

The answer is simple, because I am not a social worker at the moment.

I currently work for a large multinational company's Madison facility as a mechanic reliability engineer. I got that job over five years ago when the economy was heading South and I saw it coming. As I have posted elsewhere, when that happens social programs are the first things politicians cut out of the budget. Since I choose to work for non-profits it becomes an issue quick. So I jumped career tracks if you will. With over 15 years at John Deere I had the street cred to get the job.

As for the pellets, that is a much longer topic and I am currently being encouraged to embrace brevity. Perhaps we can discuss that later when I have answered all of these.

I know I know, I asked for this........ LOL

SA Wrote:

I guess it never occurred to you that some people are better at searching for information because they know what the're looking for....

Or it could be they have more time?

SA wrote:

It's been my experience that people who use more words than necessary to express themselves often have an inflated view of themselves....

Or it could be that is necessary to ensure the CYA factor in a very law suit infested environment?

SA wrote:

In any case it's easy to look back and find fault .....

It would be truly pointless if we all learned from those mistake of the past and did not insist on repeating them. I agree, correcting repeated mistakes is a waste of time and energy. I try to make new ones everyday because it is one of the ways I learn.

I always thought there was something to the definition of insanity that is often ascribed to Einstein. Maybe that's just me.

"Or it could be they have more time?"

What does time have to do with speed? ...he said revving finely tuned google search engine...

"Or it could be that is necessary to ensure the CYA factor in a very law suit infested environment?"

That can be covered with a small disclaimer at bottom of post....

The rest is babbling....

Disclaimer....; not to be taken seriously

SE wrote:

What does time have to do with speed? ...he said revving finely tuned google search engine...

That can be covered with a small disclaimer at bottom of post....

The rest is babbling....

Disclaimer....; not to be taken seriously

SE, I can understand your confusion.

I used to race cars in my younger days so TSD (time speed distance) are all related in my experience.

As for the other....

Its a matter of understanding the cause and effect of working in different evironments and the hidden risks inherent in those environments.

And to be quite frank, would you really go to a therapist who used your quoted disclaimer?

Damn, Wisconsin is my neighbor, right across Lake Michigan (not Lake Wisconsin) and I can't tell you of anything important that ever has come from there. I have even been there several times, but it reminded me of the upper peninsula of Michigan.

They do have Old Milwaukee's Best beer, but that's not good... hmmmm, I'm thinking, there has to be something. I'll get back to you.

Nothing important huh?????

Super Bowl Champions..... Wait being from Michigan, you don't know what that is, do you?.....

Oshkosh Trucks

TP.......... You can live without that.....

There's more........ :)

Super bowl?? What's that??? I am a hockey fan.

You must be from Wisconsin! Ok, I am bashing Wisconsin for no other reason then somebody from Wisconsin was looking for arguments, reasoned or unreasoned. I chose the unreasoned argument, bashing the state the O.P. is from.

I said I would get back to you if I thought of something important that came from Wisconsin... Well it's PHOENIX911, champion defender of all Wisconsinites!!!!!

All in fun my friend....

What's hockey? ..... Is that something you catch with a hook and line?

I am from North Dakota so where does that leave me other than south of Canada in that stretch between Minnesota and Montana and too far north for any of civilized America to have any clue as to what we actually do here?

North Dakota, I rarely travel out of the country... :P

You do get some of the coldest weather in our country. I think it's between you and West Yellowstone, MT.

International Falls, MN, at one point, wasn't that the where they would set up labs for study.

New Findings Release from International Falls, MN

*Its cold out!*

I went to Madison, WI once...that was close enough.

Officially, Stanley, ID (398) had the most days with the coldest temperature in the lower 48, followed by West Yellowstone, WY (337), Gunnison, CO (170) and Truckee, CA (161). Taken from a 1995-2005 by Guy King in 2007.

"I don't live in New Orleans. Why because I am smart enough to know that living 16 feet below sea level in a city surrounded by water is a flood waiting to happen."

Strange, i am from Holland a country where most of it is below sea level and we seem to do ok.

but what was your question again?

Wait a minute I thought you were Japanese.......Unless you're just there building dikes to stop the tsunami waves, I don't see the connection....

When's the last time you had a hurricane?

Mr. Social Worker, here's a challenge to you.

Fact: We all do things to get what we want. For us here, it's about a few things; we feel good when we help others, we get satisfaction when we know something someone else doesn't, we want to be the first to give a good answer, it gives us the feeling of importance, we've worked hard to become experts and we want to show off, etc. The common link is engineering/science - I think we can all agree.

Fact: Many of us no longer have daily jobs as an engineer, but I think we've all worked as an engineer in some capacity. I think it would be interesting to see what all of us do for a living, but that's for another time. What I learned from my four years of undergrad as an EE is that I know how to research (some of the best internet researchers are here - agreed), analyze (some of the best thinkers are here) and form a conclusion (this is where we get some exceptional back and forth). You've been keenly aware of what makes an engineer ... an engineer. We know we're smart - heck, how many non-engineers/scientists do you know who took AP Calc in high school? So if we seem arrogant, it's because we know who we are.

My challenge: If your goal is to get "a good reasoned debate", do you think there may have been a better way to do it? I'm in the middle of this wonderful book, written by a man named Dale Carnegie. In the 40+ years I've lived, I never read it. I've been curious about it, but I never had the time to pick up a copy. All I can say is that I'm glad I did so and I only wish I would've done this years ago - but maybe I wasn't ready and now that I am, I'm going to get so much out of it. Based on his book, you have to be smart about achieving your goal - work with people and get them interested in helping you. We can assume that you're an intelligent man, so why would you approach this in the manner you have. I've read the comments and even though I do not agree with the "bashing", I have to admit that you asked for it.

Is this what you wanted to achieve? I sure hope not. So if you haven't read Mr. Carnegie's book in a while (or never, like me), I highly recommend you do so. I'm taking time out of my day to give you (and others here) some advice that I think can be life changing. I hope you accept my challenge!

Is this the five-minute argument, or the full half-hour _{<tips hat to the Monty Python team>}?

PWSlack wrote:

Is this the five-minute argument, or the full half-hour _{<tips hat to the Monty Python team>}?

Sadly its an all day battle since I actually have to do my job atleast part of the time I am here. The outpouring of love has been well amazing!

Best of all, it has been helpful too.

a fools voice is known by multitude of words

Ecclesiastes 5:3

No, it isn't.

PWSlack, ten past midday.

Is.

That's not an argument, it's just a contradiction.

Can be..

Can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition¹.

_[1] ©_{Monty Python}.

No it isn't!

Times up. PayPal me for another five minutes.

wtickhill wrote:

a fools voice is known by multitude of words

Wow, Don't have a Bible handy but I'm sure theres a good comeback in Proverbs somewhere.

Isn't there one in there somewhere, may not be Proverbs, that says, "suffer fools gladly, and carry a big stick"?

Or was that George Carlin?

I'm forever getting my bible studies confused.

That may have come from Philadelphians, Chapter 3, verse 12.

"over folks heads or lost in translation"

I find the biggest issue is the skim reader. I too have had posts that seemed to be as your statement, until I stop and really read the answers and realize that, just as one has accused you of doing, I over write sometimes and folks are answering on their interpretation based on a skim reading. (who wants to read all of the 6 paragraphs phys has posted?) But that is why I am here too, as this is the most likely place for someone to understand what I am asking ot stating. The frustrating part is when you do simplify, then you end up writing the entire post you had planned, in 5 installments. But, that usually eliminates total mis-interpretations.

And, let's face it, we all love a good old fashioned friendly arguement, don't we?

I once had an employee that would right extremely long answers (several paragraphs to several pages! ) to simple questions. I asked him why he did that, and he said "I don't want them coming back and asking anything else, so I try to educate them on the entire subject"!

...talk among yourselves...

oops - right write!

Phys wrote: I find the biggest issue is the skim reader......

And that is the core of the issue is why am I having such a hard time getting such a simple concept across? Being the person I am, I always start with the man in the mirror and work out from there.

So this is my way of letting folks tell me what I am doing wrong so I can fix it. Granted there is a lot af chaff, but some of it is clever or witty and sometimes funny.

And I have found the occasional on point reply that has been helpful as yours has.

Thanks for taking the time.

Now I get to go home after 12 hours fun.

I think I understand what you are trying to say; that people don't read the thread carefully. This has been a problem from day one. Regardless of how well one expresses oneself, misinterpretation manages to creep into spaces between the lines. I know personally after posting a question, the responses don't always address the question. That is because people either don't read carefully before responding or they are just plain oblivious to the question. I always try to give all the information possible in wording a question, but invariably I will leave out something, or sometimes I will assume the reader knows about the topic in question. I doubt that you will ever get two or more people to ever agree on anything 100%. Look at government.

Ok, just got back from meeting hell. WOW!

It looks like I have some reading to do.

Yes I invited this so I owe each of you who responded a reply.

That may take awhile, going to be fairly busy today, but I will get there.

Just let me say up front whether you offered a constructive critique or simply took advantage of the opportunity presented to bash, I thank you for taking the time.

Having a thread on CR4 and telling people it will get crazy before it stops, is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Good hunting.

<unsubscribe>

Yeah - I'm bored with this - <unsubscribe>

It appears that you have a lot of issues bothering you; issues that you are unable to resolve by discourse with others. In other words, you have not been able to find anyone to have an intelligent conversation with. This is not the place if you are looking for an argument; a discussion, yes, but not an argument.

Ronseto:

Aw crapola,

I am sorry Ron, I missed your post.

Dude, you have no idea. LOL but at this time the only issue I was trying to resolve was the communications breakdown. It was occuring on this board but it was also occuring in my work environment as I am attempting to stop the purchase of a piece of equipment that is not suited to the job at hand and cannot be easily or cheaply made to do the job at hand. (BTW, where I work I do the later of those two most of the time)

So, as you may have read, I set up a little experiment in order to get input. It has been a success and I am moving forward again.

The Gantt chart waits for no man!

Since many of my posts seem to go over folks heads
Sounds like a case of over inflated EGO. Please lower the pressure.

A bit arrogant! So, why would one bother?

You have too many subjects here, which is the primary issue?

Are the rest of the subjects examples that support the primary or should there be several different stand alone threads? If they support the main premise, it should be clear, these should be of fact, not of opinion.

OPs should be brief or, like resumes of more than two pages, they go in the trashcan.

Passingtongreen,

I have to admit you have a point. It is a side effect of the form of communication necessary when dealing people. In engineering there are absolutes (or at least we like to believe there are) books of charts tables and calculations that have been proven correct time and time again. That instills a certain anmount of cocksuredness that folks working with people rarely enjoy.

With people there no absolutes, just variables, and many of those are hidden by the person/client from even themselves. The trick in therapy is to peel the onion, to use an old cliche, to get to the core of the situation. Often the person you are working with will defend that core and do everything in their power to divert, distract, derail your best efforts. All of this is important information for those of us trying to treat the individual so when communicating with each other we are very detailed and often use multiple examples to help promote understanding quicker.

The point that I failed to recognise is that in each of these fields we have a common vocabulary and a common understanding of how this mechanism works that is not shared with other professional communities and so my form of communicating is less than effective at times leaving us all frustrated. Not to say social workers can't be amazingly brief and succinct, its just that without the common foundation the understanding doesn't come.

In recognising this I do not expect any of you to change. I would ask that you try to keep this in mind when I go off and I will try to keep my words more in line with the form of communication you all are more familiar and comfortable with.

In other words, its on me and once I recognised this I put up this thread in order to prove the theory and gain the understanding necessary to move forward effectively.

Again, I thank you for your help with this.

Zzzzz_zzzzz....

(Sorry, couldn't resist! ).

JohnDG wrote: Zzzzz_zzzzz....

Glad I could help with your insomnia problem.

You've again missed the point. In engineering if you cannot clearly, quickly, concisely describe your problem then you prove that you do not know what you are talking about.

To quote the satirist and mathematics professor Tom Leher, "People who cannot communicate should at the very least shut up."

Redfred wrote:

You've again missed the point. In engineering if you cannot clearly, quickly, concisely describe your problem then you prove that you do not know what you are talking about.

Redfred:

At the risk of seeming testy, (which is is not my intent)

I can only assume you failed to read the entire post or lack the basic understanding to comprehend its meaning.

What part did you fail to understand and maybe I can help.... by using more words which is the only tool a therapist really has.

Other than that, I really don't know what to say to you. Sorry.