Anti Freeze Fraud?

I think that is 50% demineralized water, and when added to top off coolant, maintains a 50/50 mix....but you can find cheaper...

Shirley, you jest.

Shirley, you jest

Yes! and dont call me Shirley.

When you buy anything you are paying as much for the packaging with its fancy logo, etc. as the actual material. Demineralized water costs about $10/1000 gallons to produce, even under the most stringent conditions, depending on the initial cost of the raw water, and any pretreatment chemicals needed.

You are paying for packaging and "convenience", and "getting it right", since you don't know how many people out there have no idea they are supposed to dilute the anti-freeze or what a 1:1 dilution actually is.

Nothing, unless you fell for the 50% version. Shipping costs might be a salient factor, for one thing.

I bought my own water. Dollar a gallon.

I have a question. Is that water actually distilled or is it demineralised (chemically treated to remove serious nasties like calcium)? At that price, I doubt it is distilled, but I'm open to correction.

I never said "distilled", nor did I expect it to be anything other than filtered water, perhaps demineralized. This is a 1993 Chevy van. (with 70K miles) The Chevy dealer who normally services it probably doesn't use distilled either.

Two other posters mentioned distilled water.

I seriously doubt that anybody uses pure distilled water for radiators much any more, except AH, and a few others. I did, at one time.

I may put it in my '72 Vette, after it's reassembled, since it will have an expensive aluminum radiator. I'm only about a month out at having it back on the read, after 12 years in storage.

I've never used distilled water in my radiator. I just didn't want to say it, for risk of being mocked and bullied.

Wise move, with the prospect of an aluminium radiator....

Nice car. I am sure you are looking forward to enjoying the ride when you get it finished.

I want to see pics of him trying to get out of it.

Will he get help, or will he do the ole, "roll out onto the ground" method?

If it has a T roof he might be able to stand up and walk out of it. :)

I need one of those for my wife's Camry. I have to grab the door and drag myself out.

your Camry has a door?

I can still manage to get in and out of these.Yes, the Vette has T-tops, too. It's really my wife's car.

We know. You get in them, start them, and crash them.

'Shirely' the insurance on that thing is more than Third Party, Fire and Theft?

The insurance isn't that bad. It's the deductible that hurts, if you wreck.

You need top quality antifreeze for Aluminium and probably cast iron or steel.....not cheap but well worth the extra price.

Do not make it "stronger" than you need....it finds all tiny holes....!!

Better not be any holes. Everything's new.

Antifreeze lowers the surface tension and "holes" where water alone will not pass through, let the Antifreeze mixture "flow" through....

A test with just water will only find the "bigger" holes......

Don't mix colors. All antifreeze is not the same.

Why stop at water content, when it can be so much more complicated?

http://www.aftermarketsuppliers.org/Councils/Filter-Manufacturers-Council/TSBs-2/English/05-2R1.pdf

You might want to consider Evans Waterless coolant. Several 'shorts' on you tube.

It also depends on how far one must (or wants to) carry the water; to say nothing of the challenge of calculating how much water to make a 50/50 mix.

Let's see how long it takes an AP to ask this question....

The same thing that is wrong with oven chips ("oven fries" west of the Atlantic, perhaps?), ready meals and simple lead pencils.

Some people just don't have the time, the skills or the inclination, so they pay someone else to do it for them.

Not really a fraud.

The labor, packaging, shipping, inventory, shelf space, etc., are identical. The "do it yourselfer" always saves a little money.

Same reason that kids clothes cost about the same as adult clothes; the actual material is a negligible part of the cost...everything else is the same.

Then why s water "only" a dollar a gallon?

That's all that the people that distill water, do. It's also the price that people are willing to spend on it.

If nobody bought the 50/50 blend, it would either disappear or they would lower the price.

It's called the free market, and a lot of people are being fooled into thinking it's unfair.

That's where the fraud is taking place.

Everything is worth exactly what someone else is willing to pay for it.

The 'drinkable' water here is $1/gal, the 'generic' distilled ( for steam irons, et.cet.) is only .56/gal ....I guess I'll use distilled this winter for dilution...

There's a taste additive in that to prevent people from drinking it.........

Seriously??????? Maybe that's what's wrong....

There may be a number of reasons here. but The costs of a lot of product is .............. Packaging............ I'd still shop around.

People are willing to pay for convenience.

Here's another tip Lyn...

You can go buy your own apples and cook them down into applesauce, for your evening snack.

But the fresh apples cost more than the applesauce so you are paying more for inconvenience.

But the stores don't sell cheap ugly ones so you have to pay more to buy pretty ones if you want to make your own applesauce. (Why anyone would do that is beyond me because applesauce is dirt cheap anyways. The glass jar probably costs more than what they fill it with.)

The orchards where they grow it does....... Just ask for grounded.... Or deer apples. One more thing about that cheap applesauce, the sweeteners is corn syrup.

I'd rather have a nice crisp apple myself.

I installed the process blend system for 50/50 in a regional plant of a major antifreeze brand.

That plant did not blend with distilled water. They used city water for blending.

They also private labeled for a number of different brands. All brands were blended from the same ethylene glycol and city water, what varied by brand was the additives.

You definitely get more ethylene glycol for your buck when you buy the straight stuff, not the 50-50 blend.

Thanks for that.

They also private labeled for a number of different brands.

I'm not surprised there aren't that many glycol plants that actually made antifreeze

At last count, I was told it is 2

Good Luck, Old Salt

It was only 2 back in the late 90's. I was shopping in Fleet Farm, (a region farming supply store ) and Antifreeze was on sale very cheap, so I bought a case of it. Within a week, one of the plants had a fire or something and was shutdown, and antifreeze price skyrocketed.

I tell my college-attending daughter to buy the 50/50 to top off the reservoir in her old Blazer, but when she's home I supply her with a jug of mixed. She understands the difference and prefers to buy the pre-mix over mixing it herself. It is not a fraud, in fact, it makes perfect sense. I would even buy the premix if I were on the road and needed to add some antifreeze before I got to a destination.

Theres nothing wrong with premix..... it can make sense on certain situations.

Why do you just buy the 100% glycol and follow the directions for blending with water? KISS principle......

What would really tick me off is if I ever suspected the mix was not 50-50 but a little off towards the water. They would save thousands, and the public would not likely ever know. What is the effect in properties of the antifreeze if one quart of 100% AF is added to a 10 quart system being one quart low ? about 5%, within limits. ( 5.5 to 4.5 ). What is the effect in properties if one quart of water is added ? about 5%. In warm weather you can safely add water since it is the cheapest, and be merrily on your way. As cold weather approaches, test the mixture and if the reading is off, you can add pure AF to the reservoir and test again after a week. ( or drain a little and add ). You can save the drained fluid for the next summer. If you have chosen to add AF during the summer to err in safety, then you will be adding water to dilute to your target value. again, save the extra for next time you need to add. Overall, small amounts of water or AF will make very little difference in the protection.

If it wasn't 50/50, that would be fraud.

Speaking of fraud...

How about that bottled drinking water?

Why? Is that 50/50 too?

Sadly, the Illuminate have been secretly adding dihydrogen oxide to it for years now.

Can you "water down" water?

Sure, but a double of Evian and branch costs twice as much.

The North American major brand manufacturer I worked with was intensely concerned about blend ratio quality. Minimum 50% EG was not debatable, the blend had to be a minimum of 50% EG or it wouldn't leave the plant.

Error was allowed only on the side of excess ethylene glycol (EG). The controls would shut the fill line down and bypass the solution to a holding tank if the error went in direction of excess water in the blend. As I recall the operating setpoint was actually 50.25% EG, 49.75% water.

The blend was measured by Coriolis density, an in-line process refractometer and hourly grab samples checked in the lab.

I am convinced that no jug of antifreeze left that plant that wasn't a minimum of 50% EG, although I can't speak for other plants or manufacturers.

that's with every thing........

I believe they have a government department on weights and balances that checks on this........ (Gas stations have a sticker).

and if your short, the fines or extreme. You buy something that say 16 oz..... it better be 16 oz.... on all bottles.

There is a major retailer type that sometimes doesn't seem as concerned with maintaining accountability for the advertised weights and measures....

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I have found on a number of occasions at a couple different major grocery stores that items in the bakery/deli were significantly under the weight on the label/sticker.

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It started when I picked up a loaf of bread baked in the deli that claimed to be 16.0 oz... but it felt really light. It was barely 12 oz.

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Since then, it has become sort of a game, looking for things that look underweight and hauling them over to the produce section to check, then sometimes bringing them to the deli or service counter (depending on how much fun the person working the counter looks like they will be) to ask if the weight was 'before cooking'?

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I don't find an underweight item every time I look, and sometimes I find grossly overweight items. It does seem to be pretty common, based on my completely unscientific survey.

It's interesting, you do what is not the norm...... Or at least what retailer expect, my experience is designing food processing equipment, and now processing the food.

And exact weight items started to play a big role starting in the mid/late nineties. Such as cheese as an example and plays a big part. Walmart, was really instrumental with this at first,( due to volume) you can give more but never less. The costs were huge. But to under cut, the regulators and fines were huge also.

I'm currently on my iPad and traveling., it a little difficult, but I can post some links on this later as we'll explain it in more detail.

I haven't found it anywhere except in-store bakeries/delis.

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I know huge investment has gone into insuring products meet the minimum of the amount labeled, as well as minimizing the overage. I am not certain why this hasn't carried over to local in-store bakeries.

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I have noticed the phenomena in more than one city, though all in the same state.

Bakeries, one has to look at what it is sold for...... By the piece is what I think it would be. It's pretty hard to control to portion out the dough by weight. Too many variables.moisture content, change during baking, ect.

I wouldn't know it was underweight if they didn't list the weight on the price sticker print out.

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I realize accounting for weight loss in goods that are cooked/baked could present some problems, but there are several simple solutions (which the in store bakeries don't seem to be using)..:

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-sell items by piece as you suggest.

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-sell items by weight and actually weigh the finished item before printing out and attaching the price sticker.

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-continue the current pricing/retailing practices with the exception of pulling out the underweight items to be sold by on of the two methods above.

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Not really rocket surgery (or brain science), and yet apparently not being done consistently in my area.

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Check in your own locale.

I hear you, but wouldn't that mean that if you (could!) say take 100 loaves and weigh them, most would be around the right weight, some would be overweight and some underweight!!

Why is it that we rarely (never?) hear of overweight loaves?

Perhaps a few others could comment here as well please?

Why, because we do not buy bakery by the pound...... i.e. I'll have 3 pound of bread please...... I'll have 3 loaves of bread. It may be listed, but that may be other reasons.

Same with a rolls and pastries.

And the reason, there are not over weight items. But that's not often, but as a business. You pay attention to your bottom line.

You wrote:-

But that's not often, but as a business. You pay attention to your bottom line.

E.G. Thats called F*****G the customer I believe!!!

Probably done far more often than we realise.

myself: But that's not often, but as a business. You pay attention to your bottom line.

your comment: E.G. Thats called F*****G the customer I believe!!!

Why is that?, its actually called good business, or the business is F****D, I mean no more.

And I really do not know of anyone who buys a pound of bread.

The one that I do not like and can be seen as misleading the customer. and that is...... Remember when you get ground coffee in 1lb tins....... then it when from 1 lb to 14 oz. in the same size time, so you buy it, thinking I just saved $2.00, when you actually paid more.

That sucks.

You're right again!!

You aren't suggesting that it is acceptable for a bakery to label as 16 oz a load that only weighs 12oz, are you?

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I don't happen to buy bread by the slice or time it was baked, but if the label says it is sliced and that it was baked today, that is what I expect it to be.

No, what I would be speculating, is that the bakery is selling it as a by-piece item. The weight on the label may be their for a different reason........ and that is confusing to a unsuspecting/uneducated consumer. And too much information, especially when your looking at a possible contradiction, (Weight/Count) Which one take precedence?

I would say count. (The count in Sliced or unsliced bread is different, that is still be the loaf), But I agree about the sliced and Baked today, not to be confused with Freshly Baked ^{(never heard of 'Stale Baked Bread')}

Date/Time it was baked is important for recall, as well as possible lot numbers which would have more information.

its the same as a burger joint saying 8 oz of meat ( pre cooked ). I believe all the loaves weigh the same in the baking pan, but due to inconsistncies in the mix, etc, there will be more or less water in them when they are done baking. The same applies to a bag of bread crumbs or diced bread cubes - they are really light compared to the loaves the came from.

I addressed that in an earlier post..........

Here's one, the 3lb, 5lb and 10lb bag of potatoes, I would say that these are all over weight........... may have to have Truth..... to find out cuz I never checked. If they are short...... then there should be heck to pay.

Unless you buy bread as loafers........ then you have to get them in pairs....

Glad to hear it.

when they first came out with 50/50 mixes....... my dad bought a case of it, (on a farm, we'll flush and replace it on our tractors) thought he got a deal...... . until I pointed it out to him.

he was po'ed and said "Now why do they go and do that for?"

Great opportunity - buy the gl of full strength - empty 50% for yourself

top up the container with water - sell for $11.99 - your antifreeze cost=$1.

Why moan? jt

I'll never forget how happy I was when I saw my missus walking down the aisle towards me......
My heart was beating fast.. and the excitement was unbearable.
It seemed to take an age, but eventually there she was, standing beside me.
I gave her a loving smile and said,
"Get that trolley over here love. They're doing 3 cartons of Beer, for the price of 2."

They ben doing that a long time here. 'Buyer Beware' comes to mind. -- JHF

Anybody else notice how many 'pound' containers now hold and are labeled 14 oz?

That has been going on for a long time......... I first noticed it with coffee.

And as long as the label says it's 14 oz.....

Years ago, I remember buying antifreeze for about $5 a gallon. Now it's $13? Luckily, it's been quite a few years since I needed to buy any (I think the last time I paid $7/gal).

I also remember the premix stuff coming out and thinking to myself, WHY? I get it if you're at the quick mart at the gas station (heck, I'd think they would sell it to you by the quart vs a gallon). For someone who plans to take it home, it doesn't make sense (for the purchaser).

Lyn, when you put antifreeze in your 'Vette, make sure you don't use that orange Dex Cool stuff. Just go with the regular green coolant. Dexcool works great when there is no air in the system, but as soon as it mixes with air, it becomes sludgy. Also, each manufacturer uses a different blend of this stuff, Toyota is pinkish red, GM is orange, Ford is yellow, blue for Nissan, etc. Just stick with the green and maintain it.

Thanks. That's the plan. Also electrical isolation from the frame is important.

Very true. Fiberglas bodies and grounding! I've heard 'Vette electrical horror stories.

Sounds like you've done your research and you'll have a fun car to drive.

It's my wife's car.

But, with 3 growing boys, she'll have to drive her van lots to haul them around.

And SOMEONE is going to have to take the Vette out and "blow the cobwebs out" now and then, right? Ugly job, but someone's got to do it!

What a life!

What a racket!!

Where can I sign up?

So, and this may be off-topic, what about BEER Fraud?

I am referring to the dilution of standard (already watered to a known alcohol percentage such as 4.3) beer - with more water to arrive at a product called "lite beer".

A Brewers 'wet dream'?

Bud Lite outsells Budweiser and at the same price!

Even with a declining birthrate, there is still a sucker born every minute!!!

I think the Beer situation pre-dates the anti-freeze situation and is just a copycat crime.

To filk (yes filk) music, "Put that Budweiser back in the Clydesdale boys ---"

Lyn-

The close prices are somewhat due to the packaging, transportation and marketing.

1ea @ 1 gal= 1 gal of 100% Ethylene Glycol; 1ea 1 gal plastic container; 1 plastic cap with tamper proof seal in cap (applied with heat or radio power); 1/6th of a cardboard box; a small portion of a pallet; warehousing cost transportation cost; marketing cost; etc.

2ea @1 gal at 50%= 1 gal 0f 100% Ethylene glycol; 1 gal of drinking water and 2 ea of all the other costs. When bought in rail tankers or tanker trailers the Ethylene Glycol is one of the least expensive components of the finished product.

Take all this and add in some fictitious higher production costs, warehousing costs, and "higher QC standards" and you have a rip off for the 50% anti-freeze.

My solution for my use is to save a 1 gallon container with a "clear graduated level strip" on the side of it. I then buy a 1 gal container of the 100% stuff, pour 1/2 gal of the 100% into this container and fill up with tap water (just as used at the manufacturers). Since there is 1/2 gal left in the new container I fill it also with water. Each is paint sticked 50/50 Anti-Freeze. Now I have 2 ea of 50/50 anti-freeze in 1 gal containers for the cost of 1 gallon of 100% and about 2 minutes of labor. When they are empty I buy another gallon of 100%, split and add, and recycle the new container.

Sorry, I don't have a justifiable reason for the high cost of the 50% as compared to 100% but I don't think the manufacturers have one either. Try the split and dilution method. At least you keep some of the money and don't throw it away on the purported increased costs for the manufacturer' increased profits.

Good Luck, Old Salt

lyn-

Some of the most flagrant weight cheaters are now the "Cash for Gold" store front operations. In a local county the Prosecutor's office investigated 50 such operations and found 28 in violation of the weights and measurement laws. Some of the methods are as simple as using a fake exchange rate, "goofy" scales, "language barriers", devices under the pan of the scale, etc. Some of the worst were local corporations that ran several locations as one tactic.

Unfortunately, I don't have an excess of gold (the wife has an overabundance of it) so I can't go out and make a undercover detective run!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Now, that's certainly fraud.

No sane person would take their gold to one of those places, unless they were desperate.

I don't have any gold. My wife won't let me have anything that's expensive.

Fortunately she doesn't have the combination to my gun safe.

Well, someone, somewhere, got the the idea that the convenience of "no mix" would have at least a niche market. The cost may be as kramarat suggests -- materials becoming a smaller portion of final price.

It is a frustrating but interesting observation that consumers will pay "too much" for items they know are probably a rip-off, out of need or apathy.

As phoenix911 mentioned about coffee sizes... I posted my irritation with shrinking grocery sizes a while back. And concerning the types of apples that go into applesauce, as opposed to fresh ones in the produce aisle... I wonder what becomes of the almost over-ripe avocados that go on sale, and often-times have little flies around them in the store. Recently there were pears on sale for 10 cents each. I think most of them went bad before they were sold. Naturally, one asks if nutrition suffers because of being picked "green" and shipped all over. Here's a lengthy discussion about that that looks interesting from the first few posts. If one investigates the drop-off in nutritional status of almost any primary food source, due to age, cooking, etc. it is quite revealing. What we think we are getting may be much less that we think.

Another thing I've noticed at my local, regional grocery store is that when items go on sale, there is often a problem with the "batch" that is on sale. Just a few examples:

The last few times I bought fresh grapes on sale, they were quite hard and not fully ripened; somewhat sour as well as sweet. And strawberries? They go bad quite fast, looking like they have some sort of "decaying disease," within a day or 2 -- heck you have to inspect them in the store before buying for this symptom. I've bought the creme-filled, soft oatmeal sandwich cookies on sale and when I open the box the creme filling is all over the cellophane wrapping around each "cookie" as well as between the 2 oatmeal halves.

I recently noted that Cheez-It crackers net weight have shrunk from 13.7 oz. to 12.5 oz., I think. (And remember, they were 16 oz. just a few years ago.) Similarly, the Cheetoh look-alikes (house brand) I have bought from this grocer have been shrinking in size from 14 oz., to 12 oz., to 9 oz., and now to 8 oz. I never knew the ingredients were becoming so expensive. But on both counts, I've decided I won't buy either of these products at the current size and price. I keep meaning to call their headquarters or send them an email letting them know there is a limit to their practice where I think their business will finally start to drop off.

Some spicy-hot house brand cheese puffs were recently put on sale. When I got towards the bottom of the bag I noticed that biting into each "puff" it almost squirted oil; definitely an unpleasant taste and even more unhealthy than the snack is to begin with. It also seems to be almost across the spectrum of processed foods, as another example illustrates. I like the term "Grocery 'Shrink Ray'." Grocer profit margins are supposedly some of the lowest in business, but the mfgs. of the stocked products are the real bandits here.

There is no doubt that energy costs have contributed to these practices.

Market research is pretty sophisticated and draws on psychological studies for inspiration (?). Much of the time, while we grumble, we keep buying what we grumble about. Food supplies, especially, are less than optimal. We can hope the local choice is spreading. Consumers may be demanding it. I hope it grows. (PN)

These types of experiences are good incentives to have a small garden and grow fresh produce that can be picked and eaten within minutes.