What is the Easiest Way to Thaw Out Frozen Ground?

If you can get some sawdust from a local mill, dump a pile of it on the frozen spot. The sawdust will generate lots of heat and thaw the ground.

I used to do this in Virginia, and kept a large pile of it just for this purpose.

Are you sure you aren't really just going to dig a 2x5x6 foot deep hole to shut the wife up, permanently?

Build a fire proof frame the shape of the foundation and fill it up with used motor oil and old tires and set it on fire.

I think you're on the right track with the hot water and insulation. Hay bales? I have no idea what the thermal conductivity of your dirt is, but you can probably find out from a local college.

Excavating a foundation won't be as hard as digging the entire area out.

Didn't think of the hay bales.

We have hundreds of square bales over in the old hay shed.

All I need to do is dig down about 30 inches for the skirting and take the middle down about a foot so I can set the 12 treated 8" poles four feet in the ground.

"Are you sure you aren't really just going to dig a 2x5x6 foot deep hole to shut the wife up, permanently? "

I'd never bury her that shallow or that close to the house. Too much of a possibility that I could still hear her complain at those depths and distance. G&R covers the ramifications of that lack of foresight in this song.

Guns & Roses - I used to lover her but I had to kill her.

Problem is the area is right next to the house. The bonfire approach wouldn't end so well.

I give you a GA for wait till spring. That is the only answer if there is 4 feet of frost. You will not thaw the ground with a bonfire and you may need more energy to attempt a thaw than it is worth waiting a couple or three months. Piling material on the area will insulate the ice and delay the thaw. We don't normally build when excavation is required but you can get other components together so delays are minimum once the spring thaw occurs. Jack hammers, hoe rams, and even blasting is required to attempt a dig like this one. Wait.

I'd build a tent over it, with pvc and 6 mil plastic...maybe a foot off the ground. Then I'd find a different heat source than you are using for the house. You could even build it so you could slide it out of the way, do some work, and put it back.

Maybe a kerosene heater like they use on construction sites and piping the heat in.

I have several of those heaters so that could be done that way but the house heat comes off the shop boiler system which is fueled by used oil I get for free plus the heating circuit for the house has more than enough capacity to handle an extra loop of pipe without problems.

I'm thinking the loops of pex under a layer of hay bales might just do what I need!

Your pex tubing and hay bales idea is basically similar to what a building contractor just did on a job of mine. They had to finish the excavation and preparation for pouring the floor slab in a building foundation. The foundation had been poured earlier in the fall, and the building framed on it. But the extremely cold weather had so set up the soil within the foundation that they couldn't easily excavate it to install our in-floor facilities (cable trench, conduits, etc.).

They brought in a trailer with a heating & pumping system for ethylene glycol solution. A network of flexible hose was laid out on the ground surface, and insulating "blankets" were spread over the top. Then they ran it over the weekend to get the ground thawed enough to start digging and leveling on Monday. Ultimately, though, they also put some temporary heaters in the shell to add more heat, so I think the suggestion to tent it up and run a "salamander" is a good idea too. Good luck, and pray for warmer weather!

Greetings.

Absolutely right on.

I would use a propane heater because it would not have or leave a kerosene smell and is easier to keep fueled.

A friend came home late about 10:30 PM in Enumclaw, WA to find that the power was off because of a fierce winter storm, and all the pipes in his house were frozen.

He was tired, hungry and wanted a shower and was blown away with the situation which also faced all of his neighbors.

He was standing in his garage and saw his propane heater and his generator and you guessed it he and his neighbor dragged the generator and the propane heater over to his crawl space.

He opened all the faucets and turned on the heater into the crawl space after he made sure he wasn't going to start the insulation under the house on fire.

About 25 minutes later the faucets started to drip, and 10 minutes later the pipes were all thawed and no smell under the house.

A good idea is noticed immediately. His neighbor, and then his neighbor, and then his neighbor, until all in his small neighborhood had used his idea and their pipes were thawed.

I would possibly use a heavier blue tarp or the such and make it at least 6 feet high to keep from burning up the cover and going about 4 feet beyond the perimeter of the planned foundation. Be sure to monitor the temp inside to make sure that it doesn't get to hot.

Have a Great Day,

Let us know how you do,

Olie

I dont have much for sawdust here.

What I was thinking was to build the floor for the shed and insulate it then set up up on blocks a few inches above the pex pipe with a blanket of insulation going another 2 or so feet out around it.

I sort of have to work with whats available at hand. I have all of the structural and insulation plus steel siding here for the shed. It just never got built last fall due to our month long trip to Turkey.

It seems to me the most expensive part would be the insulation....rotting vegetation can provide heat, maybe a half doz old electric blankets, thick plastic sheet....wait don't you get free gas or something?

Gas water heater with recirculating antifreeze mix....?

I have all the insulation for the shed already so there is no added expense in using it and yes I have basically all the free heat I can use coming off the shop boiler.

Then that is the easiest way apart from waiting for warmer weather.

The dirt (clay) here in GA is like concrete by mid-summer. When I needed to dig some holes I first rented a power auger, but it wouldn't go deeper than about a foot. I needed to go 3 feet deep. I ended up digging the holes using a 6-foot iron bar I got from Home Depot, then removing the dirt with a phd.

If you have access to a fireworks store, some M-80s might help. Dig a small hole, drop in the lit M-80, then block the hole with a heavy stone.

Were I need to thaw out is all fill dirt I dredged from our stream channel so it's a fair mix of sand, fine silt and black dirt. The down side is with the wet fall we had it's more than likely nearly saturated and as hard as concrete until it thaws out. After that the stuff is not so bad to work with.

Maybe a workshed is too ambitious... bet you could heat enough area to build a doghouse in just a day or so.

We have that problem here all year round. Only it is rock we dig through. Why not use a rock bucket on your machine. We dig Red Rock with it and this is a lot tougher than frozen ground.

While the ground is frozen it will easily shape up for the walls. When pouring concrete make sure to keep frost free also.

Freezing soil is often used for tunneling where soil instability is expected.

So your house will be safe doing it in winter.

My tractor backhoe doesn't have the digging power to go through frozen ground or at least not presently with the dirt bucket I have on it. The best it will do now is make a clean scraped cut to remove the snow, ice and grass on the surface.

As far as the house is concerned its sitting on its own pillars and I would only be digging down to the depth of the skirting which is not primary load bearing.

I dont need to pour concrete either. It's my old trailer house we are still living in until the new house is built so a wood pillar type foundation for a work shed is more than sufficient. I really would rather just wait until April until things thaw on its own but if I can get the ground thawed out I really don't mind doing the work now.

In this case post #3, part 1 is a temptation. Cheap and easy. I thought you had the machinery. Once you borrow, use, make a narrow trench bucket and fit it on your backhoe, you are in business again. I have seen some 6" models with 2 hard metal teeth. Best Regards. D

I have summertime earth moving equipment.

That said I do need to make a narrow trenching bucket for putting wiring and shallow yard sprinkler lines in next spring.

Use your Pex (I'll refrain from any jokes on "deer Cr4, how many pecks can I pump through Pex...) spread about 8" between the pipes, with a tarp over top to hold the pipes against the ground and direct the heat, then spread the hay loose over top of that about 2' deep. Make sure to cover at least 2' beyond each side of the anticipated excavation. You should be able to take out 8-12" of frost a day, so a week should be perfect (Google "diesel groundheaters" for comparison).

The hardest part for you is probably clearing the snow off first and figuring out how to excavate a stable base in the muck you'll be digging afterwards.

Applying some salt to the surface and driving heavy equipment over the area could help to get things less solid. The salt also doesn't have to be table salt, so it doesn't have to make the dirt unusable for growing.

You really need radiant heat, You have the hot water, if you have the pipe, the addition of some of these might work.

Back when fuel got very expensive, we tried one on our mattress. My wife, who was always cold took it off after a couple of hours. Nothing seemed to get by it.

I have a similar dilemma. I have to run drain lines and use PVC glue and all I can find are glues for 40-110'F. Well it's -5'F or lower right now with this deep freeze we are experiencing. so how do I do that?

In your case, I'd build a temporary enclosure a few feet larger than the size of your footing. Put in the backhoe or excavator and enclose it to 10 feet high. Add 2 salamanders and heat the area for a week and start digging. My backhoe requires at min 10Ft head room. Doesn't help with my drain problems as there is no way to heat the area I am working in. I do have a salamander and will probably try to use in on this job. I need to get this job done -5 or -10'F and move on to the next.

Good Luck.

Jimh77-

Get a heated storage area for storing the pipes, some fiberglass insulation encased fully in plastic sheet, some plastic garbage bags and a couple of old heating pads (the type for humans.

Only as you need it, wrap the ends of the pipe in the insulation and take it out of the storage area to where it is used. Take the insulation off, glue the ends and fittings, put the plastic bag over all this, put the heating pad over the plastic at the glue joint and rewrap the insulation on the glued area and heating pads. Let sit for a couple of hours, the longer the better. Large growers/greenhouses do it this way if they must install plastic PVC outdoor piping during the winter. It even works in the snow.

Check with a good plumbing supply house, someone out there whose name I don't recall makes a very low temp PVC glue. Perhaps goggle it. Oatey makes some for down to -10 F. Try Home Depot, they sell Oatey pipe glues.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Jimh77-

Yes, HD has limited stock. Mine carries it only in the winter. Except for evenings and most of the week-end I use the plumbing supply house. They definitely have it. They gave it to me in error once but it worked fine.

Good Luck, Old Salt

You can heat up your pipes with a air gun up to warm. (bit warmer than lookwarm), apply the glue and let it cure. Here in the tropics the glue is set after 10 minutes.

Once cured, the glue can withstand the variations, unless otherwise specified.

This works most of the time. Unfortunately though the person doing it must be extremely careful about where and how it is done. I came across the following headline:

Contractor started Roxbury house fire Saturday while thawing frozen pipes, police say.

Although the first floor is still intact the house is a total loss. Be carefull.

Good Luck, Old Salt

dvmdsc-

Apparently the heat gun was one of the electric paint stripper types. A portion of the newspaper described it as:

While using a heat gun inside the wall to thaw the frozen pipes, one of the contractors ignited combustible material within the wall, Pellek said. The fire climbed up the wall through the wall space and devastated the attic, he said.

I have never had that type of problem with those guns but then again I haven't and wouldn't use it in that close proximity to combustibles. It only has to go to 451^oF to ignite the paper on fiberglass insulation I have burnt myself on the hot nozzles but that was carelessness or stupidity.

I'm not from Roxbury; a friend e-mailed the article to me. The fire started in the wall behind a 2nd floor bathroom. Unless there is something unusual, such as gasoline or highly combustibles stored in the attic, this type of fire generally goes up and towards the attic while it is going along the ceiling of the 2nd floor. Since fire usually goes up and the 1st floor ignites from embers or burning materials falling into it, the 1st floor is usually the last to ignite. Apparently that is what happened in this one. The picture shows the roof fallen and extensive damage to the 2nd floor walls. It also states the most of the 1st floor damage was water and smoke. The underlines are for what generally happens. When a fire starts in the upper interior and the fire dept gets there soon the lower exterior walls are the last things to go. I have worked somewhere 2 or more walls are standing but go around to opposite location and only those walls are standing, the rear and all interior are gone. Fires are like women, many are similar but each one is different.

Fire Dept got there in 4 minutes and used copious amounts of water applied from the interior and exterior. A lot depends upon how long until the fire was noticed, what the people were doing prior to calling 9 1 1, the response of the fire dept and the availability of water. They have hydrants there but many areas must haul water in because of no hydrants.

Thanks for your interest and the opportunity to explain a little about fires and how some of them can get started from ordinary type tasks going wrong. How many people have unknowingly started fires in their basement workshops that destroyed the whole house? I know I'm more conscience of it than most but it isn't the loss of the physical things that bothers me. It's the tragic toll it takes on the morale of the people who have lost it that bothers me.

Good Luck, Old Salt

If you have access to a pressure water pump (fire truck, Exhaust truck or tank on your tractor as accessory) and some water to spill, You can erode yourself some deep holes or even a pool area, provided you work in sandy soil. Just remove the water after the work is done before it freezes. You can use the spilled water area to skate on also.

You've got heat, you've got pressurized water. Use a garden hose and extend the nozzle with a piece of brazed or soldered copper pipe. Water has a very high specific heat. Removal might be fun. Maybe a mud pump or shop vacuum head stuck on a steel drum?

Directional charges; or a Cat 375 excavator with a hydrolic drill; or a jack hammer.

I've never had much luck thawing frozen ground for foundations.

An idea for making the holes for the posts: If the soil is as rock-free as your description suggests, try using a hammer drill (one of the decent ones that are made to drill concrete, not the glorified hand drill types that buzz a lot) to make a hole large enough to put a pipe down with hot water circulating through it. Or you could use several in close proximity to thaw a circular area large enough to start pulling dirt out of, either by hand or by hoe.

Your friendly neighborhood rental store might be able to find you an air powered rock drill that you could use to chain drill the openings in the soil, pretty much breaking it up so you can do the rest with the hoe. A hydraulic hammer on the hoe would do this, too, but renting one of those would be quite a bit more costly. Chain drilling might even work well with a hammer drill if the soil isn't too rocky. (def. "chain drilling": drilling along a line with multiple holes spaced slightly further apart than the hole diameter.)

How about just building the shed on timbers or steel beams and plan on moving it whenever your house is built? You can relevel the shed periodically if it shifts much in the spring when the frost goes out. Best of all, because it is on timbers or steel, your building inspector may not have a lot to say about it because a moveable building, at least in some jurisdictions is classed as "temporary" and they turn a more lenient eye to how you construct it.

Jon.

Saw this about a week ago. You could build your own.
Its a grave defroster!

http://www.enterprisepub.com/dakotacountystar/news/dakota-city-purchases-grave-warmer/article_c7c1111e-7601-11e2-97bd-0019bb30f31a.html

A jack hammer, chipping hammer and a shop vac.

I have had various reasons to have to excavate frozen ground. I always used hydraulic Hoe Rams, they are hydraulicly powered paving breakers that mount on your backhoe or excavator boom. In this borrowed backfill that sounds like it has good drainage qualities, this may go fairly fast.

The hoe rams can usually be rented from almost any equipment rental company, or equpiment supplier.

Earth thaws primarily from the bottom up, not from the top down, so permanent piers set into frozen earth will very likely heave up after a few years. This is why large rocks come to the surface after a time. It is a very slow process. But I would not set piers on a frozen bottom of any hole, get down below the frost level where ever that level occurs, not to a predetermined depth.

When I found this necessary I always used a tent or fabricated a structure and heated it with cheapest fuel I could find along with a couple of fans to keep hot air moving down. Wood of any sort, used oil, great low cost fuels. A barrel stove with proper chimney protection is great and needs minimum tending. The fans are important to get heat into the ground and the structure is nice to work in as ground conditions permit. In the Oil fields even at 45 below we had shrouding and heaters, not Carribean warm but easy to work in comfort.

I am planing on going with the pex and hot water heating method with a layer of square bales of it for insulation.

As far as the area being dug out goes my backhoe tractor can reach about 10 feet and I am not all that worried about sinking in any way. I have other machines that can pull it out if it gets stuck. No worries there.

Foundation wise being its only a 12' by 20' wood framed shed addition to the house it will be sitting on 12 4' long 8" dia treated posts that go down to the hard pan clay layer I put down for the base for the house to sit on before all of the this area was filled in.

Also below the shed will be open to the underside of the house which is heated so I am not worried about frost heaving. The outer skirting is 3 feet tall and is insulated with 2" pink foam sheeting that is backfilled about 30 inches.

tcmtech-

Large florists and nurseries use a variation of the normal "hot house" which might be suitable for your application. They take lengths of rigid conduit, rigid tubing or steel tubing and bend them in a semi-circle arc. The length depends upon the height and width that is chosen. Spikes or tubing near the size of the arcs are placed in rows for each side of the hoop and the arcs placed on them. Plastic sheeting, either clear or black is then pulled along the tops of the arcs (preferably 6 mil or thicker). 1 x 3 wood is then clamped along the ground of the hoops on each side. The plastic is then stapled to these. A door can also be included on either/both ends by securing it to a footer and braces to the end arc. They don't have to be big or pretty, "just git 'er dun". Heat can be provided by a hung space heater, steam coiling, baseboard, salamanders or any other means. add a sheet metal chimney for venting.

The picture is an big and elaborate one. No need to go live it. Just an example.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Build a cofferdam around the area you want to excavate, mix a solution of concentrated salt water, rig up a stirrer to circulate the mix, and add a heat source that can keep the solution luke warm but not much warmer for better heat transfer.

Once the salty mixture works it's way into the ground, the salty soil may be repurposed along areas where pesky weeds or grass is unwanted and not a runoff problem for growth you do want.

I like the idea of putting up a temporary tent with a heater blower inside to work in a comfortable climate. This heater can also blow directly on stirred salty water. If stirred fast enough at center, it should concentrate thawing downward. The stirring needs to be strong enough to handle mud as well.

Just how the salt doesn't get into the ground water. Its a major pain to get it out. I've been on two phase II project were salt got in to ground water in a development cost the state millions to clean it up.

I don't see it as much of a problem because it is a small area that is excavated and much more salt than this is introduced to thaw roads for driving on.

One of the phase II was caused by road salt. The salt got into a craked stormwater drain pipe and right into the ground water. The excavation could act like an injection well. Just saying to be careful. Might be cheaper and easier just to get a jackhammer and do it. There about $45/ hr plus your labor you put into it. I know its not as much fun as designing some crash salt water or warm contraption. ; )

You have me interested, please send details for study….

You'll have to contact PENNDOT happened about 10 years ago so not sure if they still have the records. Most records are only kept for 6 years then purged. Some details are it was Carbon County. The storm water drains where over 50 years old and ceramic. The water in the street seemed to settle right at the drain and acted like an injection well. The ground water level was at 24 ft. Six houses had wells tied to the ground water. The state replaced all the hot water pipes water heaters and wells. We supplied drinking water by the tanker truck per house for two years. We tried to flush the drain and wells but it didn't work so the state end up drilling another well and setup it up for the community with tanks filters etc.

garyrich2000-

Really doesn't matter how much you see it as or as not a problem. It's how much the EPA's, DEP's, DEC's, etc. see it as a problem. One guy can get away with more than you can ever imagine and the next guy can't get by with "spitting on the street". What's just as problematic about it is that everything can be completed and done with when big brother comes knocking on your door and accusing you of being illegal with what you did and a whole lot more. It is then your responsibility and cost to show them how they are wrong and why what you originally did was ok and not illegal.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I'm looking more at you may have to replace all your pipes, hot water heater, and go on high blood pressure medication. That's all I'm trying to point out that salt is a pain once it hits your ground water. There aren't any EPA regulations for salt but there maybe some local. Some states have out lawed the use of salt in winter like Washington and I heard parts of Canada. But that is here nor there. Doesn't matter to me what is used just giving some cautionary advice that's all.

bakerjohn-

Yes, very true. Besides the equipment there is also big daddy potentially looking over your shoulder either now or in the future looking back to now. There are a whole set of tiers that you have to be aware of and be prepared to defend your actions to in the future as you know. EPA might not be the place that gets a bug up their butt between the agencies down to the local civic group. There are usually at least a half-dozen of others ready to jump on the property owners or responsible party. Even then as in OSHA, everyone can find a "General Duty Clause" to flex their muscles.

Typical example- 30-35 years ago I was involved with the water supply/sewage discharge modifications of an adhesives plant in Ohio. Discharges were fine while handling process wastes but high pH when not operating production. Discharge limits had to somewhere around 6.5 --> 7.5 pH but were hitting 8+ when tested. Come to find out that the incoming city water was 8.5 pH. They made us treat all incoming city water before we could discharge it. So if we ran a hose from the slop sink to the sewer we were out of spec. A few months later some city jerk said to shut us off so they came out and closed the discharge valves leading to the street. They said we weren't moving fast enough. The valves were opened very fast despite the city!

With the regulatory agencies its sometimes like shooting craps with the dice loaded in the other guy's favor!

Good Luck, Old Salt

Ok, I understand what you mean.

Wow!

The wide variety of perspectives and ideas you've spurred here makes me think that you are both in the everglades on a cool day and the depths of Antarctica all at the same time.

I still like the idea of piping in heated water under bales of hay to thaw your ground as a second best effort. Excavating periodically to, at the very least, lower the heating coils elevation and replace the bales. Trying and responding to any engineering approach will always be the best plan.

My preference is still to wait until spring. At the same time my proximity to an ocean, warps my perspective of spring compared to those away from an ocean. Spring will likely happen to me in just four to six weeks. I have nothing so pressing at my house that a four week delay will make a hill of beans difference. I will not presume to grasp why you need several holes in North Dakota ground now.

I wish you the best, my friend. Don't burn the house down.

redfred-

These have not been the preferred methods of most answerers. Just a variety to select from depending upon what he thinks is best for him.

Personally, if I was doing the construction I would wait until May, make sure there was enough brew in the ice box and invite others over to do the actual work. I have plenty of things to do till then.

Just remember though, Big Brother may be watching.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I was curious to know if an array of high wattage infrared lamps would do a good job of penetrating the frozen soil effectively. I could see a set of warm pipes working if water is added as a heat bridge to speed up the process. As long as it is covered and water is added to keep the pipes submerged.

I don't know if it would be economical on such a small scale but miners in the Klondike gold fields drill holes and use steam from a boiler to thaw frozen ground. The steam is routed into the holes one at a time via a wand.

there are very few problems that cannot be managed with the proper application of high explosives...

All joking aside, small holes filled with small explosive charges could easily break up the frozen soil and enable you to work the soil.

Yes but with the home foundation nearby, explosives can produce trouble, too.

depends on the size of the charges of course.... im thinking rather small charges. roughly the size of about four 12 gauge shotgun shells worth of gunpowder or equivalent.

To be fair my brother does so pretty impressive pyrotechnics work and to be honest our ground is surprisingly difficult to break up even when not frozen. We have tried.

Not say when or where but a hole drilled in our frozen ground just makes for a vertical cannon.

Blasting is out.

then you would need to use shaped charges.... not saying it would be economical, but possible...

I think you just like to blow things up!

Nail guns and explosive charges are hardly in the same category.

No, they can be, it is all a matter of scale. Explosives are explosives, it is a continuum of applications, but yes, I do like blowing things up, who doesn't? your point?

The nice thing about using shaped charges in this manner is the fairly surgical way in which forces can be focused. Anyone who has seen a wireline explosive pipe cutter or a perf gun in action can appreciate how precise they can be in the right hands. AND from a equipment perspective, they are fairly cheap and fast too. perf guns can plow a hole from about 3/4" to four inches in diameter (depending on the gun) through the side of steel casing, cement, and hard rock for up to 12 feet or more. pipe cutters can shear off stuck pipe sections in an oil well using a ring shaped charge without penetrating the surrounding pipe casing. People are routinely amazed at how precise and controlled they can be who have never seen them in action.

'.... Explosives are explosives....'

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I also have a healthy appreciation for energetic materials. I do have to partially disagree with you on the above comment though.

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Important difference exist between 'high explosives' (which you mentioned starting this line off the discussion) and 'low explosives' such as the gunpowder you mention in subsequent comments. The major important difference being the VOD being above the speed of sound in the material with high explosives, and below for low explosives. This leads to the functional difference of detonation or deflagration, respectively.

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AFAIK, shaped charges are made with high explosives, exclusively, I've never heard of any being made with low explosives. If you know otherwise, enlighten me please.

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If ammonium nitrate is available, it would probably be more effective to heat up a supersaturated brine to near boiling and pour it on the area needing thawing, rather than attempts to detonate ANFO.

eh, fair point.

That said, many, perhaps even most, smokeless powders can transition from deflagration to detonation simply based on the containment vessel they are in. If the containment is strong and rigid enough, then the overpressure can get quite high causing a transition from subsonic to supersonic flame front propagation. engineered "flaws" in the containment vessel can then be used to direct the forces.

Who would have though of using a .22 short blank cartridge to drive masonry nails into concrete? but it is done hundreds of thousands of times a day.

This reminds me of a project I got sucked into about 20 years ago. (Has it really been that long?) It was a pretty big expansion of an existing manufacturing facility. After a beautiful summer and fall, during which there were endless discussions and meetings, the money was finally approved in about November. Of course, we were already behind schedule. The next 3-4 months were spent doing the excavation, tying rebar, and pouring foundations in one of the coldest, snowiest winters I can ever remember in Cleveland. We spent that entire winter dragging big thermal blankets and steam hoses all over the construction site. When spring finally arrived, some genius in upper management decided the expansion should be bigger. The next 8 months were again spent in endless meetings and discussions. The money was again approved in about November, and the entire following winter was spent pouring the foundations for "Phase 2". The bottom line is that it can be done, but it certainly isn't the greatest way to do it. Maybe your wife would like to visit sunny Florida for a couple months?

Since I so so much speculation here is the conditions I have to work in.

1: The average daytime temperature here is around 0 - 15 F at best with -20 - 0 F night temps and normal winds of 10 - 40 MPH. Tenting isn't a real option plus costs money to buy.

2: I am about 80 feet from an active stream so........

3: The ground is frozen about 3 - 4 feet down and was fairly water soaked when it happened.

4: this is a 12' x 20' entryway/work/storage shed going on an old trailer house so basic wood pillar support is more than adequate. However due to the depth the ground freezes here I prefer to have a 36" insulated skirting around the edge of the structure. That however gets backfilled about 30 inches in depth.

5: I have the materials for the shed plus the machinery to dig the ground out but do not want to waste any more money than necessary.

6: The house is heated with hot water from my shop boiler some ~325 feet way that burns used oil that I get for free. Basically I have all the free heat I need as long as it's hot water based.

7: Typically the frost does not come out of our ground here until late April to mid May. I don't want to put up with my wifes whining that much longer.

8: I am a rural homeowner and around here I do not need permits and there are no building codes I have to deal with to any great extent so I can do as I please regarding the construction process.

9: I would prefer to do this in the spring as others have suggested but this is more of a keep me busy for the remaining winter and largely it's just something to help keep my wife off my butt.

10: I have lots of free time and my materials are already here and paid for.

You might need a NDSWPP permit depending on the 303d listing of your stream. Also depending on flood zone and near by wetlands could have some 404/401 issues. Don't shot the messenger. Just pointing out some possible problems in the future in case you or your family try to sell or refinance. If you are interested I can steer you in the right direction.

It looks like, the NDSWPP permit template is to projects which disturb one or more acre of land or less if it is part of a larger common development plan. Therefore, local codes can be the exception.

You forgot if there is a stream on the 303d list that could be impacted than a NDSWPP is required as the third criteria.

Not even remotely close to an issue here. This is North Dakota. We don't need no stinking permits!

Last summer we did a major stream channel relocation plus filled in the old channel with the material we moved to make the new canal. when we were done we relocated about 1200 feet of channel and moved around 100,000 cubic yards of dirt.

The State water board plus County civil engineers looked it over and said it was on private land and they had no jurisdiction over it or what we did and we didn't need any permits. We also dredged and widened the stream right in front of my house so that I would have a nice pond and that to was not questioned as well being it was on private land.

With an unlimited supply of flowing hot water, I think your best option would probably be to make a small, insulated air-space above the frozen ground you need to dig. You could probably use one course of 8" cinder-blocks for the walls. Lay boards and/or plywood on top of the cinder-blocks. Put bales of straw and/or other insulation on top of the boards. Use plastic sheeting or whatever is available to seal up the little room and minimize air leaks. Run some coils of hot water through your little air-space to warm it up. As you well-know, the water will freeze pretty fast if it stops flowing. Check on the progress of the thawing progress every afternoon. Take a pint of bourbon with you.

well one of the ways in the past we have done this was to auger holes in the ground with a post hole digger on a farm tractor. Then use loaf bales down the outside edges of the work area to make the sides stretch a reflective tarp over the hole thing and set up a salamander heater. Usually it took about 1 1/2 day to thaw out about 3 feet so we were able to dig. As soon as we were done digging we replaced the setup for our foundation work and concrete.

Well this situation reminds me of my military days. We had to set up Command Posts in all weathers. Boring I know but this is the "good" part. Where ever we set up would thaw and DRY the ground. If you have ever been to Germany it get VERY Cold in the Mountainous areas of Bavaria so this works!Put a canvas tent over the area and use either a wood burner (or petroleum fueled) stove. OR if no one is around all the time used a Electric Resistance type heater. close the tent off with just a 12" x 12" opening in the top for exhaust. the temp will rise inside to sauna like conditions. Within a couple of days (as long as you keep the stove or heat source on) the ground will be thawed and eventually dry.~ ole Sarge ~

Is resistive heating an efficient way of inputting thermal energy?

Something that might look like the design Grandpa had for making fishing worms come to the top of the ground with some iron pipe, some wire, and some electricity.

If you were an electrical engineer type could you figure out a way of doing it at low voltage?

Perhaps using old pieces of drill pipe driven a foot or so deeper than your planned excavation depth as cathodes and anodes.

Estimate the specific heat and volume of the dirt and estimate how many KWH you'd have to pump into it to warm the dirt and phase the ice to water.

Cover everything up good to keep in the heat.

Assuming a worst-case scenario: 14' x 24' x 4' pure ice frozen at 12.2 F (your average daily temperature in January), you would need 730,637 Btu (~214 kWh) to bring it to 32 F. Actual heat value may vary depending on actual ground temp, how fast heat is lost to surroundings, that the ground is not pure ice but contains a significant amount of lower-specific-heat materials (this is good), etc.

dQ = m·c·dt

where

dQ = amount of heat energy

m = mass of ice

c = specific heat of ice

dt = temperature rise

.

m = 14' * 24' * 4' * 57.2 lb/ft³ = 76876.8 lb

c = 0.48 Btu/lb·F (for ice at 14 F)

dt = 32 - 12.2 = 19.8 F

dQ = m·c·dt = 76876.8 * 0.48 * 19.8 = 730,637 Btu

.

Yeah, I know you posted this nearly three years ago and you may have even built your shed by now (did you? Did you wait til spring?) but I wanted to know for myself how much energy it might take. I'm curious like that.

Is 32° F ice really that much better than 12° F ice?

That calculation missed the biggest part f the required heat and so falls short of the total required by more than an order of magnitude.

To change 76,876 lbs of 32°F ice into 32° F water requires a little over 11,000,000 additional BTUs.

Yeah, I know this was just for your curiosity. I just want to know your curiousity is being satiated with the right stuff.

This post has been here for three years, so where have you been all this time, Einstein? He spoke of thawing out his ground with hot-water pipes, so why not lend him a hand then? An estimate then of how much energy it might take, if you knew how to do it correctly? Why now?

Or is it less risky on your part to simply wait in the shadows for someone else to comment first and then slip in behind and whip out the ol' spray can? Not to help when help is needed, but to edify yourself?

You must be proud of your work; especially the timing. Now that takes guts.

I kind of like his post at number 18 back in 2014. In terms of logistics and cost its on top; hands down.

Thank you, Gavilan.

I did not expect that response from you.

I did make suggestions back when the OP was fresh.

In a similar way, I am now responding to your comment.

Why so defensive? Good on you for providing an example of a calculation. No one can fault you too heavily for overlooking a critical component of the calculation.

I will fault you for not graciously accepting the offered correction, but instead assuming a combative stance. Your calculation resulted in an answer that would not have come close, given your assumptions to melting the ice. On the order of 15 times more heat would be needed. 15 times! That is not trivial.

I commend you on being the type of person with the curiosity to drive them to preform calculations certain calculations. All the better that you enjoy sharing such calulations with others. I will suggest that ego needs to be put into check if these discoveries are to be reliable.

The correction was an offer, not a personal attack, until you made it such.

You forgot to include the phase energy from solid to liquid.
Phase changes are generally quite energetic.

Rent or hire a trencher to cut a 3-6 inch trench lay in some pex or poly pipe then cover with straw or other good insulation and run the free hot water through it. It may take a week it may not but you get the heat down low and it will work its way up. Once thawed if kept covered it may stay un frozen for sometime. Of course the intake end will thaw quicker then the exit but does it matter.

Often times the simplest solutions are the best.

Wait until late June.

Have you considered drilled pilings through the frozen tundra instead of pouring a foundation and have a raised structure off the ground? You can insulate and do a FPSF to eliminate future frost heave and build up. We did this with our last addition last year and have radiant in floor heat, 10 zones now. I still need that work shop though....

Next year for the shop. Wife took over the new 61 ft x 11 ft addition. But also, can't move heavy equipment in there anyways.

Just another option to consider.

I didn't know this thread was still active but anyway.

Summer of 2014 the entry way shed went on as planned. It was to become my hobby work area but the not yet Ex took it over for more of her space so basically I gained nothing but her mess to have to work around.

Summer 2015 I added a 14' 20' shed about 25 feet from this one to be my official workplace to solve the 'me space' issue. Heated concrete floor and AC too!

Then in January of 2016 we got divorced and she moved out so I finally got everything back as my own!

God, I wasted a lot of time, effort and money on things (~2.5 years of spare time and a couple 10's of thousands of dollars, Enough that it would have gotten the new house basement done, the house set on it and basic heating in too) that she wanted instead of working on the new house project (she wanted done ASAP) that started this whole mess.

For some reason I can understand why anyone who would use a low thermal conductive material as a thermal radiator would have marriage problems.

Are you referring to the radiant floor, Gavilan?

It's different for those that live so close to one of the poles.

Their winters aren't like pseudowinters in Florida or Texas. The water outside gets so cold it turns solid, just like in ice cube trays in the freezer.

More importantly, if they don't have radiant floor heating and someone opens an outside door to enter, without making sure everyone has two sets of thermal socks on, the exposed toes of any bare feet snap freeze, shear off and clink across the floor and fall into the igloo pit.

"Are you referring to the radiant floor, Gavilan?"

It seems concrete would be a poor conductor of thermal energy; and therefore a poor thermal transfer medium.

Salt water.

...or a small thermonuclear device.