Difference Between 230 P-P and 230 P-N

Well it depends. Do you know what the difference is between a phase and a neutral?

Put down the soldering iron and step away.

What a pathetic response!

I do know the difference! Just answer the question or else don't waste my time (and yours too)!

I guess you don't know the difference between a phase and neutral.

The critical difference I see has nothing to do with the conductors or the anticipated load. I admit that this difference will most likely not be a show stopper but one never knows until one understands. Since you replied with an insult, I'll finish with a cryptically related riddle.

Why do you think every electric power distribution system steps down their voltages for their users?

Are you sure you know the difference?

From your first thread, "I have 3 load (AC) each of 4KW. Supply is 220 V, 50 Hz. Now how do I calculate the amperes."

Just sayin'.

Again I would say just read the complete post. Don't just quote a single line. :)

Just saying.

The load would not be able to see any difference between 230 P-P and 230 P-N. or would it?

Only do it in accordance with local electrical regulations. There must not to be a circuit disconnecting device in the neutral according to BS7671, and the insulation needs to withstand root three times the voltage.

can we plug in loads designed or rated for 230 (Phase to phase) to source providing 230 Phase to neutral??

It depends on the load. If you connect a load designed for a 230V phase to neutral voltage that has the neutral bonded to ground internally then you will have a problem (for example).

What's the load exactly (something American perhaps), what country is it designed to be used in and what country are you trying to use it in?

√3.

That's less than two volts.

LOL! Read the question. What I meant was explained in the question, only if could have a little bit courtesy to read it completely :P

Simple question but important answer/ information from all guru..

I don't believe that you have a clue what you are doing!!!

Yes, there's a difference! Too bad you don't know what it is.

Again quoting just a part of question! FYI, here is the complete question!

Is there any difference between 230 V phase to phase and 230 V phase to neutral? I know the difference but I mean to say can we plug in loads designed or rated for 230 (Phase to phase) to source providing 230 Phase to neutral??

Good luck!

Yes, there is.

A voltmeter will not know the difference, but the load has to be two wires only, plus a frame/safety ground if required by the local codes. If it requires 2 hot legs and a neutral, like many 240 Volt appliances in the US, then you can't use it properly because any internal circuitry that needs 120 Volts won't have a neutral, and could raise the frame above ground if it is not bonded to the safety ground.

I might be partly repeating what others have said, but my take on it is - the loads themselves won't know any difference. But if you have a 1-phase system, where neutral is connected to earth, if not on the site it will be at the substation, you cannot connect between 2 phases as the phase on the system neutral side would have a short circuit to earth.

CM,

If this "...you cannot connect between 2 phases..." were true how do you explain how single phase loads are attached to a three phase system, especially since it is allowed by the NEC? I'm curious what "...the phase on the system neutral side..." is, especially since not all three phase systems can have a neutral (think delta). Not sure what this means, "...would have a short circuit to earth...", perhaps you meant a "return path for the load current".

RAM

I meant if you have a 1-phase 230V (to neutral) system connected to some loads, and a separate 3-phase system 230V phase-phase, 230/√3 = 133V phase-neutral, connecting 2 phases of that system to live and neutral of the same loads causes a short circuit on the neutral side, as neutral is held down to earth potential at some point. As I said, that's my take, I could be wrong.

As JRaef said in #3, OP needs to consider the complete system. Running the load between 2 phases could be OK in the right circumstances.

So you're saying if OP has a piece of equipment rated 230 Volts that is connected to a 230 Volt supply by a piece of 2 wire fixture wire terminated in a two prong Europlug, he can't plug it into a flat blade 230 Volt receptacle using a UL listed Europlug to flat blade adapter? The equipment does not know and does not care how the circuit is derived as long as the voltage (and frequency) is correct.

There is no neutral in a delta system, just a connection across phases. So now you're going to ask "if there is no neutral and the magnitude of the voltage at each pin is 230V, how does any current flow?" The answer lies in the fact that these are vector quantities, and that pesky phase angle stuff takes care of providing the potential difference.

If you look at the usual diagram of the three sine waves in a three phase system, then choose any two phases and measure the vertical distance between them, you'll notice that the distance doesn't change as you slide the ruler from left to right. It's that fixed distance that represents the difference in magnitude between the phases, and that's how we derive a single (albeit ungrounded) phase to power our unknowing, uncaring, and non-neutral connected, 230V loads.

Just for completeness, that's how your utility works too. It supplies a 3 phase system with a single phase transformer connected directly across two phases, and in those cases (most residences) where there's a two hot legs plus a neutral 230/115V supply, the low voltage side of the transformer has a split winding with a center tap for deriving the neutral, connected to earth at the pole, and which is then brought into your house and immediately bonded to an earth/ground connection at the meter/breaker panel.

Pronoun abuse! aka Are you speaking to me?

Your proposed scenario is but one of many possible scenarios that meets the conditions of the OP. Your proposal will work if the load is a purely resistance load like a heater.

Some things may depend on whether the equipment is internally grounded to either conductor, or needs a center tap of the 230V connections.

Hence my comments and questions in post #7 which I am still waiting for an answer.

The answer depends on the equipment and is either yes or no, and if no further information is provided on the load then the answer has to be no you cannot (for safety reasons).

You might be confused between phase and neutral

but answer for your question is yes you can plug the same in phase to phase one phase act as return path and in phase neutral case neutral act as return path

The type of plug is determined by the internal connections. Europlugs are unpolarized and only approved for Class 2 doubly insulated products drawing less than 2.5A (which excludes most resistance based appliances), hence there is no worry about internal grounding, bonding, tapping, or contact with a human and any internal circuitry.

This the same plug that you might find on a universal power supply for your laptop. Most modern ones are ungrounded, will accept voltage from 100-240V, and any frequency between 50-60Hz. They'll work fine regardless of how the voltage is derived or how the plug is inserted into a properly wired socket.

If posters would just read the OP's question, much of the hysteria and draconian warnings in this thread would be unnecessary. He asked "...can we plug in loads...", not can I wire a socket, tell me how to make this work, wire my house, make an adapter, bypass the safety ground, etc. To paraphrase OJ Simpson, "If the plug fits you can power it" (as long as the frequency is correct ) We can make things fool proof, but not damn fool proof.

Yes, the type of plug is determined by the internal connections. However the OP has not described in any single entry which type of plug they have. In fact the OP has only showed barely enough comprehension of our desire for more information to repeat the same insufficient information with increased indignation. This indignation implies only incompetence and uncertainty of all information.

Next!

Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I rest my case.

smi_1989 is guilty of incompetence, by virtue of a preponderance of evidence, if not beyond a reasonable doubt.

Sorry for the late response.

I am talking generally. i.e. not specific to any socket etc.

I was just curious whether we can plug in without any problem.

Thanks!

There is no such thing as a general answer to the question.

Then generally no, you shouldn't for the reasons mentioned in many of the above posts (including mine).

Try it and see. What could go wrong?

If you don't know, then don't try it and see.

Normally phase to phase is double phase to neutral, but that is not what you set up in your original question. You postulated a power (mains) supply which is non standard. I don't see why you would.

So in MY house, if I connected by 120 volt air conditioner (some how) from phase to phase, I would get a blown breaker at best, and sparks at worst. I have no idea about where you live that they would supply a single phase power supply. That is unusual enough that I am surprised many have not already commented on it. You running from a back yard generator?

I live in KSA. The new standard, which was mandated 6 years ago, requires 230/400 V as per the IEC standards. But the old buildings still have old wiring wiz 220 V P-P and 127 V P-N (220/1.732).

People are using the new ACs, which are designed as indicated on plate for 230 V, on 220 V P-P. That's why I was curious.

It depends on whether "we", whoever "we" are, can understand the implications. And since I know nothing about "we", that's as far as I can go for the moment.