Lifting large rocks

Can they be rolled into a net?

Can they be drilled for an expanding anchor and an eye-bolt screwed in?

Thanks for your help. Some could be rolled, but the larger ones would be too big. They could be drilled for an eye-bolt or similar anchor, but I would need an underwater compressed-air drill which i don't have - yet. It might well be the best way forward.

Your first problem is a good grip.

Fabric (similar to safety belts) with latches are sold at motor spares shop for the towing of vehicles. Two of these wrapped and secured around the rock would be sufficient to supply hooks to handle 1/2 a ton under water. Or even above.

Place the rock on rollers and winch out. (terrain permitting)

Or lift onto proper cradle and hoist.

You could also consider tying floats to the rock and navigate it out.

Thanks for your reply. You're right about a good grip. Having been in a stream (which is more like a river, most of the rocks are rounded and quite smooth, but I like your idea of fabric straps with tie-down ratchets. I'll give that a go.

Semtex?

Not a bad idea - if it weren't for the difficulties of supply and the hazardous nature of the operation. But "slow dynamite" might be the way to go. I have one big rock which breaks the surface, so I could drill it with my electric drill - but I have no experience of slow dynamite. Can anyone help? Thanks for your reply, by the way.

I have a lot of experience with dynamite, some good, some bad and some funny.

I never have done any under water demolition.

Slow dynamite (40 % glycerin) is used for lifting stumps and rocks out of holes. it is not good for cracking and breaking up rocks.

60% glycerin is good for breaking and cracking rocks. It is not necessary to drill the rock. You simply lay the dynamite on top and fire it.. BUT HERE IS THE SECRET..

I shot 16 sticks on top of a rock (just lay ed it there) and broke windows for thousands of feet around. It hardly dusted off the rock. After consulting the dynamite supplier who had a good laugh, I followed his instructions and used 3 sticks but made a heavy cap of clay mud 6" thick over the top. The rock was about the size of a pick up truck before the blast and after word two people could load the largest piece into the truck.

You used to get the explosives license for $2.00 at the town clerks office. I still have my framed as a keep sake.

Snakers..

Hey that sounds serious fun....

you could have a rock blowing party...hmmm..maybe not a good idea!

It was kind of a party. It was Sunday afternoon and there were cars lined up all along the dirt road after the first blast. All the neighbors came out to see it. It was in the middle of a Farmers field. I think there was also some wagering going on. There is a piece of the rock still in the local town museum. The State Police also showed up.

Nobody knew nothing. Noise... What noise??

My Dad was also the local justice of the peace

Thanks for that, Snakers. An interesting tale! The banks of the stream are wooded, so I am not sure explosive is the answer. The "slow dynamite" I have heard about is actually a mixture of bentonite and quick lime, and it is very, very slow - like 24 hours. Apparently you drill boreholes and fill them with a slurry of the stuff which hardens and expands, cracking the rock in the process.

Your 2m depth (I am supposing water depth!) makes me think that drilling is not viable with standard tools.

I think that some kind of "butterfly net" could apply here, done with some slings

http://www.indartex.com/eslingas_i.html

attached together properly by mean of some shackles (not sure if this is the proper word).

Certainly Semtex could be the funny option :P Just wait till Jul 4th if you are from US.

Please tell us how it was after all.

Best regards, Abel

Many thanks for your reply. The depth of the water varies, but some rocks are 2m below the surface which does make drilling difficult. The net solution may be the best, as there would be no chance of the rock slipping out. I'll try and make a net and give it a go. I'll let you know how I get on. (I'm from England, by the way!)

Your Spanish Butterflies are obviously MUCH bigger than our UK ones!

You know Cat ,the wings spread bigger with sunny weather... or maybe just the second bottle of red wine makes us to think so. ; )

Nylon straps used for tie-downs would be a good start.

I would make a set of them that interlace so that the rock does not slip out. You could knot them, but knots tend to make the straps weaker, so either get straps that are well above the required rating or interlace the straps so that they form a web that can be wrapped around the rock.

Good luck!

Many thanks for your suggestion. I think it makes a lot of sense and I'm going to try it out.

Are 1 metre SDS drill bits any use:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-SDS-Plus-DRILL-BITS-1000MM-LONG-NEW_W0QQitemZ150133327415QQihZ005QQcategoryZ67240QQcmdZViewItem

Don't underestimate the danger if a rock "breaks loose" however you've fastened it.

Many thanks for your comment. I do have some SDS 1m long drill bits, and I have used one to install an anchor point on one of the rocks which was then successfully winched out of the way. The top of the rock was only about 30cm below the surface - and right next to the bank of the stream - so I was able to use my SDS drill (through and earth leakage protection device, of course). For the deeper rocks, I would need a longer drill bit. I did think about making an extended bit using something like a scaffold pole, but my ability to weld an SDS shank on one end and a bit on the other in a straight line is suspect!.

You're right about the dangers if a rock breaks loose. In carrying out such operations, one needs to keeping asking oneself what-if, what-if.

I think that the drilling machine is the problem. Since it is underwater, electric can not be used and pneumatic... depends on location and water temperature for the lucky guy!!!!. England is cold for sure!!!

Are you just lifting these rocks...

a) for fun

b) To clear the river bed.

c) Ammo for a trebuchet.(bit of a long shot that one? ho ho)

d) for the stone itself to sell at extortionate prices to Southern Softies in overpriced Garden Centres in Surrey?

Just curious...if it's b...I'd think maybe the hydrodynamics of the river itself has coped with this problem fairly well itself since the retreat of the last ice sheet?

Yes....hummm.... I think since Pangea rivers are trying to tell us something... flow...adapt...accept....join...share.... I would say that beer matches with all those words. How does it sounds for you sir? :)

I'll certainly drink to that!

Cheers

Del

Thanks, Del. Some good ideas there! I hadn't thought about ammo and Surrey garden centres. You are clearly an entrepreneur as well as an engineer. Sadly, the river is a long way from Weybridge...

I admit I am lifting these rocks for fun, and to clear this mountain stream so it is more pleasant to swim in the deeper rocks pools which it has created over the millennia. When in full speight, the river does a wonderful job of cleaning and clearing itself, and a couple of winters ago it very kindly moved for me an 10-ton rock from the centre of the best pool. Unfortunately, every now and then, it can also dump rocks in the pools, and it is these I want to clear. Ideally, I am after a method of removal which is simple and quick and does not require specialist equipment.

Dear Duggy: Is it too much to ask for some picture of the place??? Yes. I am curious. Yes. I use to swim in rivers too. What is the temperature of the water? Aprox only eh?

Just go to your local hire shop and ask for an anti gravity ray.

(Wear the hard hat when you ask)

Big inter-tube wrap it around fill with air let them float down stream.

I like it! When I get a compressor, I'll give it a try.

Many thanks

What about a military style cargo net? Like the type they use to do air drops with.

They should be pretty easy to come by. An make a nice form fitting basket.

What are you using to move these rocks? And do you have the rights to move these from the river?

I know in the US there are lots and lots of regulations on disturbing river beds.

You are lucky you are not in South Africa. Over here it is called altering the beds of a water resource and a license is required. There is also a license required for impeding - I cannot find anything on un-impeding - Call it un-impeding and authorisation is granted.

I suggest you contact one of your local excavation companies, and have them bring in a Hydraulic Shovel (Excavator) for a couple of hours and clean up all the items in your way.

Dave

I used to work for Komatsu UK designing the excavators. They manufacture many different types for all different applications. Far reach excavators are some of the specialist ones they do. Visit their website - you might be pleasantly surprised.

They can be built with larger counterweights at the rear of the machine meaning that they can reach further away from the centre of gravity and lift larger weights.

Thanks, Dave. Sadly, I cannot get any plant down to the stream, as the banks are too steep.

A cargo net from a helicopter will do the trick..

Good idea, Andy. Thanks, I'll try and get hold of one.

How about a long pry bar. I can easily move curbing that weighs over 400 lbs with a 36" prybar by jamming the bar into the ground under at the edge of stone and lift/push. Since the apparent weight under water would be less a long prybar might just get them moving. Clearing a path below would be necessary to make rolling/moving easier

Thanks for that. In some cases I think that would work well, but in others it may not be possible to get enough lifting force. If one did get enough, there could be a problem of balance.

When I was moving large rocks on my farm I used TONGS like the type used to carry blocks of ice, then winched and pulled the rocks with my tractor. Worked well.

That's very helpful. I thought there must be some proprietary device for lifting/dragging rocks, but not even Google could help me find one. I'll try ice tongs.

Many thanks, Maxmutant.

Sir,

You can use a chain, as those used in snow on tires. They wrap around, hold, and maintain grip in lateral lifting situations. Too small to fit around the object boulder? Try using it with a small come-along wrapped around the object boulder.

Brian Valley

'b_e_valley@yahoo.com'

Good idea! Thanks

Do you want to move them out of the way or completely remove them from the river? How steep is the embankment? Regardless, you might have to do some diving to wrap a chain, strap, etc. around the things. if you wanted to just move them out of the way, I think the innertube idea is the best yet.

There was a creek near my house where I grew up. I have spent many, many day swimming in it. There was a portion of the creek where someone piled up rocks to form a leaky dam about 2 feet high. It made the upstream side very nice for swimming without impeding the water flow.

Yes, I just want to move them out of the way. I agree the tube is a good idea, but the main issue is, as you say, getting a purchase on them: objects that are heavy, fairly round and slippery! And it is probably something I'll want to do a few times each year. S o I am after a simple, safe and reliable method for tackling rocks of different shapes and sizes at varying depths, which I can do myself on my own. You guys/gals have given me loads of good ideas to try, and hopefully I will come up with the best solution.

Thanks, Dag. You obvious appreciate rock-pool swimming!

Indeed! Unfortunately, I now live out in west Texas and there are no great natural swimming holes...

Another crazy, but safer idea.

A 55 gallon barrel will lift about 450 lbs. Two will lift 900 lbs.

If you can get a purchase on the rock, rig a barrel with lifting hooks and sink it down and chain it to it. Apply compressed air via a compressor and hose to force the water out of the barrel. As the barrel lifts. to the surface with the rock hanging below, tow it closer to shore to shallow water. Then it will be easier to manipulate and work on. Remember that the rock will be heaver out of water. Be sure to rig the barrel up with steel straps and lifting eyes for safety. Do not tie ropes around the barrel, if it gets away you could be injured. If the barrel is rigged to be stable with the water inlet/outlet at the bottom and the air inlet at the top, you do not require any valving

Just like they raise ship out of the ocean, Submarine Squalis!

The barrel might be more controllable if weighted on one end and floated vertical. Your banding would have to go over the top for a good clamp.

Little rocks first until you develop an technique.

Ingenious!

Lifting a 1/2 ton or 1 ton rock is NOT a problem with the right type netting. the problem is chafing as the rock bears down on the net forcing it against the other rocks as you drag it out.

http://www.fishingnewsinternational.com/heighway/sourceCompanies.htm?site=fni&sdcat=FFFGnettin

This will give you a selection to choose from.

If you can't decide, contact the Gear Talk columist Quentin Bates and ask him to help direct you. tell him his old mate in Louisiana sent you.

Rock picking in the UK........sounds like a peachy day to me.......

good luck.

I have tried many ways to move large boulders, 200, 500, and maybe even 1000 or more pounds, some easily, others very difficult.

last fall, I hired a man with a pulpwood truck, for $50 (Canadian) per hour, and boy!!!!!!!To think how many rocks, the long reach, and capability of the lift, it made me wish I had done it 15 years earlier. However, not all pulp trucks can lift rock. My wood supplier could until he changed the crane and so on, on the truck, then, could not. if the rock is too far out to lift, the boom can pull it closer to the truck, then,lift it. In my case, I wanted the rocks only swung abbout 50 feet, but, another friend wanted them moved, and so, the truck carried them 1/2 mile and then unloaded. Fall, when ground is very dry and hard ( here) was most suitable, but, you would know in your area, when best.

Some rivers are protected, or ar at certain times of the year ( fish spawning) , so, it is one other factor, besides whether the truck can lift the rocks, and if it can get to where you want it to get the rocks. ///Anyway, you could ( if safe) build a rock wall 20 feet tall with a pulp truck, if you find one that can lift rocks, and also, that will do it for you. Good luck. justmejim