Fake Cell Towers Are Spying On Us?

A little more info here:

http://rt.com/usa/184636-fake-cell-phone-towers/

Hmm...I guess it's not something new, I was just unaware of how intrusive they had become.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/09/cities-scramble-to-upgrade-stingray-tracking-as-end-of-2g-network-looms/

Some just lie about it.

http://www.news10.net/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2014/03/06/cellphone-spying-technology-used-throughout-northern-california/6144949/

bottom line is, if you broadcast through the air or the net..you're rolling the dice, you cant even store naked selfies in Apples cloud! its the world we live in,this isn't 1776

Too late, you're already on someones watch list. I'm sure I'm on several

I had also read on this.clearly its big brother, not another country like China

If it's China, it sure doesn't say much about US intelligence.

What intelligence?

Yes, it's not like China is listening in on big brother. I'm sure they would never do that.

no way would they piggyback

It doesn't look like these units are available to just anyone.

http://www.wired.com/2014/03/harris-stingray-nda/

Pretty impressive. The "Did you know?" blurbs are interesting.

http://harris.com/investors/

Maybe not those specific units, but buying electronics to spoof phones has been around for awhile.

The same goes for spoofing garage door openers, car door remotes, even the deadbolts and locks on your front door. Security is a mirage and has been for a long time.

I don't even bother locking my house, but we already know why criminals use these devices. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with local law enforcement having all of these wonderful tools.

Here's a price list:

https://info.publicintelligence.net/Harris-SurveillancePriceList.pdf

I'm not the only one that's worried...the prez has told us that cops are stupid, and the AG is working on convincing us that cops are nothing but murderers. There's also that pesky 4th amendment, but I guess that's not much of a concern anymore.

that link has malware

Hmm......I'm not showing anything.

malwarebytes picked it up

I just ran a complete system check with malwarebytes. It picked up some adware garbage, but no malware.

This site didn't pick up anything:

http://scanurl.net/?u=https%3A%2F%2Finfo.publicintelligence.net%2FHarris-SurveillancePriceList.pdf&uesb=Check+This+URL#results

Nice...the conspiracy theory delivers on criminal malware...

Neat trick

PopSci is guilty of sensationalizing the story by leading it's readers to believe that entire phony cell towers had been erected.

Don't ask me why they did it. The truth is a heck of a lot worse. The "tower" could be a simple laptop.

Maybe not on all of us--just the most critical.

They watch for key words then zoom in you you and monitor you.

The mass collection of phone calls looks to be another unconstitutional move by Eric Holder. Here's a June 2013 letter from the guy that authored most of the patriot act, to Holder, expressing his concerns:

http://sensenbrenner.house.gov/uploadedfiles/sensenbrenner_letter_to_attorney_general_eric_holder.pdf

More here from the LA Times:

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/19/opinion/la-oe-sensenbrenner-data-patriot-act-obama-20130819

I believe I have located the leader of the spy's....

Shown here disguised as a dog butt.....he's a clever one that.....

I smell somthin fishy Rorge! I must be the kitty litter I ate.

Is that a beard he has down below?

Must be part of the disguise.

So should I take the red pill or the blue pill?

Oh, what the hell... you've taken the red pill, we'll see together how deep the rabbit hole goes.

On occasion I've needed to know more about some building or facility that was commonly available. Tax records. Find out who is paying the taxes on the real estate under these 'interceptors'. I wouldn't be surprised to see a front man paying these taxes, but some digging will reveal more than you know now.

Get after it, man!

This is slightly OT, but now that local police departments are emulating the illegal collection procedures of the federal government, I started wondering how our local PD fits in "constitutionally". I know that the Fusion Centers are a partnering between federal and local authorities, as well as private business. The answer is long but interesting.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

Gooberment is the epitome of "...don't ASK (for permission), don't TELL (anybody)..."

By the Secret Order of the ..............Thud!

I'm sure it's nothing. They're just looking for terrorists potential cases of workplace violence or hate speech.

The words "potential" "violence" and "hate" are subject to processing by our systems.

It is suggested you avoid expletives after smashing your thumb while using a hammer.

We are watching CR4 closely......

CR4 is a treasure trove of keywords. Billions are spent watching this site alone.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150281/REVEALED-Hundreds-words-avoid-using-online-dont-want-government-spying-you.html

A simple Google JavaScript automatically catalogs CR4. Haven't you ever noticed that? It didn't cost the government a thing.

I shall never go to Mexico and enjoy pork with you again, kramarat.

Del the Cat (he lives somewhere near London, likes archery, anything to do with wood) shouldn't be to hard to find, told me to say that 'cos he was in a hurry for the airport ^{. ....an aardvark told me.....}

Cmon' Kris, don't say that.

You're the bomb!

Isn't this just the telephone equivalent of surveillance cameras? In the UK (and I am sure other places too) they have caught many criminals at all levels over the years....I am sure in the USA too.....

I don't care about the cameras or the cell phone towers and I certainly don't care if some- thing/one wants to listen to me talking to my kids or my wife.......I prefer NOT to be blown up by some ISIS fighters, no matter where they were born!!

ISIS/Taliban and the like needs to be eliminated, in any way possible......we cannot simply complacently wait for that without allowing some facets of our "freedom" to be eroded, sadly.....

But if you are really worried about this, move to the country and stop using cell phones, or fork out the $3,500 to have a secure one!

You might have to wait a week or two till the Harry Potter invisible cape is available in your area though........

There is nothing we can do to stop it.....but how many will be up in arms if the Taliban (or the like) really go out to attack western countries and kill people en mass.....

You cannot expect governments to eliminate terrorism and protect the public (our families and friends for example), but deny them the tools to do it!!!!

I am sure this comment will cause an uproar on CR4, but please offer other possible logical methods to achieve the same security that are both practical and cost effective and able to replace the present methods.....

I think you will have trouble finding any......but if there is a valid idea or two, then I am sure the read CR4 and will copy the ideas almost immediately.....

You should know as well as anyone Andy, what can happen when government gains unfettered control.

Like the good ole days, when Hitler took people's guns away to make the country safe.

It appears to me that all surveillance has been turned inward on ourselves, as our president professes to have been taken by surprise by ISIS, and has no plan in place to deal with them; as our president professes to have found out on the news that tens of thousands are being allowed to cross our southern border, (over 250,000 by next year, with no end in sight), with the only plan being to transport them to various states, without letting those states know who they are or where they're going.

I don't trust that government intends to keep me "safe" by illegally monitoring my every communication. Especially a government that seeks one party control at all costs, and has been very clear in letting me know that people of my ilk are not represented.

PS-

Thanks for trusting us Andy. I guess Merkel is just paranoid. We only did it because we care about our allies.

http://www.dailydot.com/politics/germany-nsa-facebook-merkel-spying-close-borders/

Its not the "doing" thats daft, its getting caught at it!!!

By the way, any country that does not manage to keep its data safe is themselves stupid....

Merkel was using a standard mobile phone that even Prince Charles and his first wife found out it can be overheard!!!

Firstly, the allies made it impossible for another "Hitler" to rise in Germany. The laws here are so complicated on that point, few understand them fully.....but its the ONLY country that has those fail-safes that I know of.....

Harping back to Hitler today is simply wrong and demonstrates an ignorance of history of the last 70 odd years, as well as a lack of knowledge of ones own country too!!

For example, now how about the way the USA has as a country, badly treated black people over the last 300 years or so, if you want to really "dig" History.

Or even just SINCE the 2nd World War....its not pretty.....

AND you still have white cops filling unarmed (probably "mouthy") black teenagers full of lead WHY?????.....EVEN THIS YEAR!!! Don't cops have Tasers for such people.....?

We don't have a Hitler anywhere here to see!!!

Now in the USA you have all these gun clubs, paramilitary groups and and and.....its not safe for anyone anymore there.

You have about once a year a school and its pupils getting shot up, but you all stick with your "amendment" that allows (almost) every one to carry arms.....even certified idiots!!

You have home born Americans making bombs and blowing up government buildings.

You let a bunch of terrorists into the USA, let them take flying lessons that avoided the landing procedures (!!) and then let them fly into buildings full of people with aircraft full of people....DUUUHHHH!

Hey, a modern "Hitler" knows where its good to go and build something!! and its not Germany, but it might be to a gun club near you!!!

The USA sits between Argentina and Mexico on Firearm related death per 100,000 people!!! DUUUUHHHHH!!! See here, sort on column 2 Total Calculate:-

List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

I see gun clubs in the USA, not only with active machine guns, but with repeating light cannon! DUUUHHH!!!

See here:-

Big Sandy Range Gun Club

THIS IS NOT NORMAL IN A WESTERNIZED COUNTRY EXCEPT THE USA!!!!

The UK banned all handguns (except for military and Police I believe) (private persons were always banned from having cannons and machine guns!!) and has drastically reduced reduced gun crime. It was never as high as the USA anyway.....

The USA's gun crime is so bad per capita, you are down with the third world countries.....

Surely we have had this discussion already on CR4.

If you do not want to be "watched over", you need to leave the USA and avoid all western countries....but you don't do it, you just complain and complain.....

There are many like you!!! You might be able to build your own country, somewhere....but you are, like us in Europe, stuck with surveilance, unless you go somewhere else....Take it or leave it.....

I accept that such things are needed.....the surveilance is still the best way to go at this time.

Wait till we all get "chipped" like our dogs and cats.....then maybe it won't be needed!!! But I think thats a long way in the future.....I'll be dead already!

If you could offer a valid alternative, I would be prepared to read and try and understand it, but all we see are complaints and more complaints....and not just you!!

What you will probably come back with is some rubbish NRA statistics THAT YOU BELIEVE!!!

Or get incoherently angry, either one or both.....

Now what you should REALLY do is to go away and help fix some of those problems before you try being the "Pot calling the kettle Black!!"

I actually have a lot of great US friends, only one of them owns some guns, but I like him and his family still......all of the rest would not have a gun in the house. One actually lost a son that committed suicide with his Dad's gun at 17.....that house has no guns anymore!!!!! I wonder why???

By the way, this post of mine is to tell the truth as it is today, not to make you angry, but I believe you won't see it that way, please try to prove me wrong!!

That was really long.

My point was, whether it was Hitler's extermination of the Jews, slavery around the world, including the US, the Roman empire, the Christian Crusades, the internment of American citizens of Japanese decent in WWII....

All of those are examples of government run amok. It's stupid to think that it can never happen again, or that somehow the world has become more civilized. It hasn't.

Free individuals will always have the capability of inflicting harm, whether it's running someone over with a car, or shooting up a school. It's miniscule compared to the damage that an evil, out of control government can do.

History has proven over and over again not to blindly trust government to do the right thing. Especially ones with an apparent endless supply of money.

Completely off the topic, but readworthy. CR4 needs a new 'click'. Ditch all that 'Guru' stuff - nobody with half a brain takes it serious. You and Andy both make very good points.

kramarat's bomb. 9/11, my pet turkey - the bird- not the place, you plonks. Andy and Anon both start with the same letter, kill them right now.That is no coincidence. If you piss with my farm on Facebook I will get well angry.

It's real simple. I can carry on and get some odd people turn up on my doorstep. It hardly matters, I have kept them busy. (that spellling looks all wrong). The point, somewhere in my head, is that spying, warfare, is almost by definition not 'in our face'.

Just show me WHO has total power in say the USA. Even the President can and has been impeached.....and who misused it? When?

Please show me EXACTLY where that liberty was that vanished in smoke, say since WW2?

I am sure it has happened somewhere, but I could not say where if you asked me, can you? I will be interested in reading where and when....

This is just one small example that REALLY burns me up, and it's spreading across the country. It fully exposes the hypocrisy, racism and filth that lives in both political parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop-and-frisk_in_New_York_City

They argue that it slows down crime...yeah? So would stop and kill. So what?

For a country with such lax and useless gun laws causing so many deaths each year, I can see this as being a fully legitimate method of stopping and finding illegal guns, loaded and hidden under clothing.....FOR WHAT REASON?

Ask yourself, are felons and ex felons allowed to own fully legally hand guns? I seriously doubt it....so if they get caught with one, they land behind bars again - great!

Are any citizens, without an up to date hidden weapon certificate (wording probably wrong!), allowed to carry loaded hidden hand guns? Again, I doubt it!!

Why is that then a problem to frisk people without probable cause, just because some Cop wants to make sure NO GUNS?.

If one, only ONE illegal weapon and its user are taken off the street each week with such methods, that is a really great and positive effect....I would vote for it!!

(Oh I forgot, there are not enough illegal guns around here to make it worthwhile!! Silly me!!!)

Maybe it would be better if those airport scanners were made portable and hidden in vans, parked on streets and used to scan anyone walking past, they would never know that they had been scanned till the police had the 'Cuffs on them/you.....Would that make the civil liberties people happier? I doubt it!!

That would make the frisking unnecessary in NY. You read it on CR4 first......

By the way, US from the FBI statistics show that 50% of the shooters were black, so that it would be correct to stop more of them!!

The biggest problem that I see are that most police are white, now that is a significant part of the problem....more non-white police should be hired.

See here:-

FBI expanded-homicide-data-table-1-for 2011

For the numbers of white police look here:-

2014/the-race-gap-in-americas-police-departments

I'm not going to argue with you too far, since you don't live in the US and are perfectly comfortable with the idea of living in a police state as long as you feel safe.

Stopping and searching people that happen to be walking down the street, is a serious constitutional breech. I guess nobody complains because it happens to be black men in bad neighborhoods. But the precedent has been set; by turning our collective heads, we have given them permission to do it anytime, anywhere.

A government that followed the constitution would never have removed the rights of law abiding citizens to arm and defend themselves. It was this unconstitutional action that gave rise to huge sections of our cities turning to scum and being controlled by a relative few gangsters.

You're right, many of our gun laws are stupid. By eliminating gun free zones and restoring rights to the law abiding, we will see our crime rates dropping quickly. It's become obvious that creating an unarmed populace for the bad guys to exploit, has failed to reduce violent crime.

Go figure.

Sorry to have to disagree again, particularly with the last sentence which was:-

It's become obvious that creating an unarmed populace for the bad guys to exploit, has failed to reduce violent crime.

Here is the proof that your statement is totally wrong and VERY misleading, the UK has a total ban on handguns. Of course there are some illegal ones, but when caught with a handgun, it is usually rewarded with a 10 year prison sentence - that is just having one in your possession.....before you do ANYTHING with it!!!

The UK sees around 0.25 deaths per 100,000 population due to firearms (this even includes the ones that are not banned, but licensed only, like shotguns for example!!)

Even Canada (big hunting population, a lot of guns!) and Argentina do not score as badly as the USA and Mexico!!!

Per Capita, the USA has over 40 times more firearm deaths than the UK.

Even Germany, where you can with difficulty get a pistol Firearms certificate, has only 5 times more deaths due to firearms than the UK......

So what you believe (NRA Statistics?) is totally wrong, there is the proof, the USA is statistically on a Firearm deaths basis, a third world country!!!

What you are believing are simply incorrect statistics from various bodies trying to make black to be white. If you are taken in by that, its a very sad position to be in....

Switzerland is the worst rated westernized country before the USA, but only has about 33% of the number of gun related deaths per Capita, shameful enough!!!!!

A complete ban on handguns reduces dramatically the firearm deaths in a country....

By the way, the number on the left in the table is the position in the table of each one of 71 different countries....

Firearm related deaths per capita (per 100,000 people)

	Country	Total (calculated)	Homicides	Suicides	Unintentional	Undetermined	Sources and notes
12	United Kingdom	0.25 (2010)	0.04 (2010)	0.18 (2010)	0.01 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	Guns in the United Kingdom[67]
23	Germany	1.24 (2010)	0.20 (2010)	0.94 (2010)	0.02 (2010)	0.08 (2010)	Guns in Germany[23]
40	Canada	2.38 (mixed years)	0.5 (2009)	1.79 (2006)	0.08 (2001)	0.01 (2006)	Guns in Canada[10]
58	Argentina	10.05 (mixed years)	3.0 (2008)	2.79 (2001)	0.64 (2001)	3.62 (2001)	Guns in Argentina[1]
59	United States	10.30 (2011)	3.60 (2011)	6.30 (2011)	0.30 (2011)	0.10 (2011)	Guns in United States[68]
60	Mexico	11.17 (mixed years)	10.00 (2010)	0.69 (2001)	0.47 (2001))	0.01 (2001)	Guns in Mexico[40]

Either you did not understand my post fully or you did not read it fully.....sad!

I hope that a loved one of yours does not become a statistic in a constantly more dangerous society, due many say to your "right to bear arms".....

But again, you are one of the many who will NEVER be convinced just how dangerous a place you live in...which is why although I have visited the USA far more times than I can count, I have never wanted to live there....

I looked around on the web and it would appear that nobody knows exactly how many families have at least one gun, nor the total number of guns, but 4 million are sold each year to the population THAT THEY KNEW!!!

See here:-

How_many_gun_owners_are_there_in_the_United_States_of_America?

Number of guns and gun owners in USA. Most estimates range between 39% and 50% of US households having at least one gun (that's about 43-55 million households).

The estimates for the number of privately owned guns range from 190 million to 300 million. Removed those that skew the stats for their own purposes the best estimates are about 45% or 52 million of American households owning 260 million guns).

Some recent estimates: A 2011 Gallup poll estimates that 47 percent of US households own a gun.

A 2007 Small Arms Survey estimates there are 88.7 guns per 100 Americans (#1 in the world for guns per capita)

A 2010 estimate from the NRA states "Privately owned firearms in the U.S.: Approaching 300 million, including nearly 100 million handguns.

The number of firearms rises over 4 million annually."

That's awesome!

No wonder our crime rate is dropping. Every legal gun owner represents another chance of a scumbag criminal getting dropped.

Thanks for the link.

What's sad is how you continually try to convince Americans that they need to be scared.

You peddle fear for fun...sad old ex-pat fart!

Whats even sadder is that you hide behind "Anon" so often....Not quite sure of your facts I suspect!

Which are of course wrong again. Whats new?

Let me remind you just once more, the USA is down with the third world countries with regard to gun crime.......

"If you can stay calm, while all around you is chaos...then you probably haven't completely understood the seriousness of the situation." - Anonymous

Was that Anonymous Poster #1 ? Could well be, but still a good saying I find!!!

Of course it is VERY obvious who you really are!!! No big secret there!!

Excellent post.

I'm sorry for your loss, and there are many of us who are not represented by our government at the moment, and haven't been for a long time.

What you say of RSA is quite true, it just gets worse and worse there.....driving at night unarmed is like committing suicide.....

Which is why we always had two machine guns handy - sadly......

Since those days when I was there, there are other methods to dissuade thieves from stealing your car and shooting you like when driving, here is just one:-

RSA Car Anti Theft Device

This system has been sold many times in the RSA!!!

What is needed is a total ban on hand guns, they are not really needed for game hunting, no matter what the hunters day.....and I have heard some stupid explanations!!!!

All other weapons need to be registered.

Unregistered weapons give the holder/user an automatic 10 years in prison....

Push that through and you only have the machetes to worry about in the RSA!!!

The problems in the RSA are simply I believe a reaction to all the years of Apartheid, most of the crooks sadly being coloured or black.....you cannot really blame them either.....they were treated like dirt. Now they are getting their own back....REVENGE!!

If you live there, you have to understand the problems, make your house into a fortress and train the whole family in security and protection. If even one of the family does not like that idea, its best never to go there.

Its actually worse than the USAs "Wild West" was of the previous 150 years or so to my mind.......

Its simply a very dangerous place......

I used to assist BMW SA with their computer systems, so I was often there. But I did not go traveling at night. NO WAY!!!

One of the times when I was in RSA in 2004 or so, the Irish Dance Troupe "Lord of the Dance" was there and the publicist left the Theater at I believe 22:00 or so with a Laptop under his arm, on foot, wouldn't give it up when asked, shot dead 5 minutes on his journey.....surrounded by friends....who lived because they did not have laptops that they did not want to make a present of to anyone with a big pistol!!

See here:-

Lord-of-the-Dance-agent-shot-dead-by-robber

Its damn dangerous there.

When I was in the Philippines in the 60's, it was also really dangerous, bars made you check your weapon upon entry......a friend of mine in the RN was deafened and had a burnt ear lobe because he did not want to pay his bar bill.

The bartender pulled out a big (HUGE!!) revolver and held it, muzzle upwards, close to his left ear. He still did not want to pay so the Bartender pulled the trigger!! HE PAID!!! It was a week before he could hear properly on that side...the burn was also painful and needed treatment......a bad sealing revolver chamber???

I haven't been there lately, but it appears to have improved a lot since then!!

Its also the direction that the USA appears to be going in, the next few years will show that more clearly I feel, or not, depending upon the lawmakers......

But saying that the USA is not as dangerous as RSA is actually hardly a recommendation!!!! Or an appealing quality!!!

Sorry!!!

Bans only make things more expensive and profitable.

Google "prohibition in the US" or "US war on drugs", and you will have an idea of the potential success rate of a gun ban.

Where I live, and across the US, it's easier for kids to get meth than beer. Lets not add guns to the list.

If everything will be safe with a gun ban, I want them all banned. Which means that cops don't get to have them, and zero armed security around our political leaders, their children, or any of the Hollywood snoots.

UK cops do not need guns as a normal part of their duties. Since the 19th Century!!!

If you kept yourself better informed you would have known that, the UK is famous for this.....and it WORKS!!

Read the following link and learn something useful!

Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom

Learn something new every day, its a really good policy!!! Here is it for today....

Have a great day anyway......

I'm not quite sure why you care so much about guns being banned in the US when it has no effect on you whatsoever.

Most people that don't want to get shot just avoid cities that have gun bans. It's easy.

The original intent of an armed citizenry was to be able to fight back against a government run amok, which, like him or not, Snowden has shown that these people are way, way out of line, and now we know that they have mobile units to snatch cell calls.

It doesn't bother you in the least that the US has been caught eavesdropping on your prime minister and country? Why?

I don't understand blind trust in government from one of our own citizens, it makes even less sense coming from you...but thanks for loving us, I guess.

I will try and answer your comments:-

I'm not quite sure why you care so much about guns being banned in the US when it has no effect on you whatsoever.

Most people that don't want to get shot just avoid cities that have gun bans. It's easy.

Firstly, I have a far bigger chance of being shot there while on a visit!!!

Also, coming from a country that involves itself in almost every conflict worldwide, ...ones having no effect on you whatsoever....that is almost funny.

So we go to war together (UK and USA) in WW1, WW2, Afghanistan and and and and.....but domestic problems in the USA we should ignore?

Perhaps the USA should start ignoring domestic problems in other countries and concentrate on getting itself better organized internally!!

The original intent of an armed citizenry was to be able to fight back against a government run amok, which, like him or not, Snowden has shown that these people are way, way out of line, and now we know that they have mobile units to snatch cell calls.

No it wasn't, it was to supply a ready trained soldier for duties on behalf of the USA against (usually) foreign foes and self defense, not to kill its citizens when robbing them at gunpoint...

Sir William Blackstone wrote in the eighteenth century about the right to have arms being auxiliary to the "natural right of resistance and self-preservation," but subject to suitability and allowance by law.

It doesn't bother you in the least that the US has been caught eavesdropping on your prime minister and country? Why?

That is very easy to answer, if the German secret service are so stupid, then they deserve to be overheard.....do you think that this will stop ANY country doing what it has done for years? Of course not. They all do it!!! If you think ANYTHING else, you are naive....

If some do it better than others, that is totally normal and expected. Getting caught was simply stupid on the part of the USA.....

The USA has the money to develop almost anything it wishes to do in the spy business, remember, voted in by a majority of US citizens every 4 years or so.....who haven't a clue as to what goes on behind closed doors....

Now Snowden has told them and us!!

You need to start reading and informing yourself a bit more, I can also give you the weblink for your constitution and how it developed, but I have the feel that you never ever read links.....

I could go on, but its like shooting fish in a barrel.....

Context is important, as well as remembering that the framers REALLY had a distrust of big government.

http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/amendments/2/essays/142/to-keep-and-bear-arms

Nowhere does it say that the right exists to rob people at gunpoint....not trying to joke.

Nor does it mention the right to bear arms against the law or the state......

The Constitution is a bit like the Koran, there are lots of clever Dicks around who are reading more into it than was ever intended.....

The comments in the link you posted are well written, such as this:-

Modern debates about the meaning of the Second Amendment have focused on whether it protects a right of individuals to keep and bear arms or, instead, a right of the states to maintain militia organizations like the National Guard. This question, however, was apparently never even discussed for a long time after the Bill of Rights was framed. The early discussions took the basic meaning of the amendment largely for granted and focused instead on whether it actually added anything significant to the original Constitution. The debate has shifted primarily because of subsequent developments in the Constitution and in constitutional law.

I agree.

But only in the original intended form, not what the rednecks read into it today.....

You would think that the US would have had time to make the laws in the constitution "more up to date" in the last 240 odd years......but they haven't.....

The Constitution is to the Koran as the Magna Carta is to Sharia law...eh?

Is that all you've got? Are you more developmentally disabled than the average Brit or wot?

You missed the point again and again.....

I think you skills in language are appalling....go back to school!! You are definitely NOT an Engineer with your misunderstanding of standard American English....!!!

To try and to get your skills improved, I was referring, quite clearly in my post (try re-reading it slowly), that the definitions in the Koran and the Constitution are misinterpreted by many for their own use....and many simple folk believe these "interpretations".....sadly.

The NRA is a classic for the misinterpretation of the Constitution (you ARE a member I would guess!) and the terrorist Mullahs in the past have done the same for the Koran......

Maybe the Koran, with the unwitting help of people like yourself, will replace the Constitution in 100 or 200 years? Who knows......you grandchildren will find out maybe?

The thought alone will probably keep you revolving in your grave for many years to come.....

But, if the Koran is read and understood as it was originally written and meant to be, its actually quite acceptable to most Christians as it is......as no Jihad or similar is mentioned....

But people, for their own uses used "Abrogation" to change verses to make them warlike and to talk of victory. Its not the original meaning anymore, so be careful which version you read:-

Abrogation is a reoccurring topic whenever verses of the Koran are discussed. As a rule, later verses counseling Holy War, such the Sword Verse (K 009:005), abrogate earlier verses counseling tolerance and peace, such as K 002:256. The Sword Verse is just one of the 164 Jihad abrogated verses.

(Abrogation = noun [mass noun] formal The repeal or abolition of a law, right, or agreement.

They have at least modified their beliefs, even if in a very negative and aggressive manner, the US has not managed to even modify the Constitution since many, many years......I could not be bothered to check when or even if....with regard to bearing arms....I believe not!

Our system has worked better than any other in human history, and no, nobody has the right to rob somebody, period, with or without a gun.

Something that gets lost in (attempted) translation, including by supposed constitutional scholars of less than stellar intellectual integrity, is that, after acknowledging that we needed some form of government, the single highest priority was that it must never be allowed to become what they had left, and must never be allowed to exercise control over the population.

That would preclude them from attempting any type of mass disarmament. Sadly, the same people that want to ban guns are reluctant to impose severe punishment on violent criminals.

Sadly, the same people that tell us that hardened criminals should be treated with compassion, are the same people that created the fetid conditions and fatherless homes from which these angry murderers spring.

Every attempt at Utopia ends with a cesspool of drug addiction and crime. It's time to stop the trend...and gun bans don't do the trick.

You have obviously completely ignored the effects of :-

a) UK has no armed police, only for special circumstances, not standard issue

b) UK has totally banned hand guns and rewards owners with a 10 year prison sentence.

c) UK has approximately 40 times less firearm related deaths.

You simply find it impossible that the "Great American Dream" is a complete Myth with regards to guns and gun crime....or was it too difficult for you to read and/or understand....

To lighten your mood here are some pertinent jokes, the first one fits in well with some early comments of Kramat!:-

Jon Stewart on gun control opponents: "No one's taking away ALL the guns. But now I get it, now I see what's happening. So this is what it is. Their paranoid fear of a possible dystopic future prevents us from addressing our actual dystopic present. We can't even begin to address 30,000 gun deaths that are actually, in reality, happening in this country every year because a few of us must remain vigilant against the rise of an imaginary Hitler."

(if you don't understand the big words look here:-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia

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"If your first reaction to shootings is to think, 'Oh s**t, Obama/liberals are going to try to take our guns!' your priorities as a human being SUCK."

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"Maybe this is crazy, but I think the right to own a gun is trumped by the right not to be shot by one." -Andy Borowitz

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"Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I wish mental health care was as easy to get as, say, a gun." -Andy Borowitz

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"Make no mistake -- they're coming for our guns. And we freedom-loving gun lovers are totally defenseless! Other than, you know, the guns."

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"Nothing reassures parents more than surrounding their kids with the kind of guys who have a lot of weapons and nothing to do on weekdays." -Stephen Colbert on putting armed guards in schools

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"Firearms groups across the country have declared today the first annual Gun Appreciation Day. So don't forget to set your clock back 100 years!

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"The NRA made an ad saying that Obama is elitist because his kids have armed guards. Yeah, that crazy Obama thinking his kids need special protection. I love the NRA accusing anyone of being paranoid.

It's like a septic tank saying, 'You need a mint.'" - Bill Maher

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"Rick Perry said Obama's suggestions for gun control disgust him. He said the real answer to this problem isn't laws, it's prayer. You know, I know you're not supposed to say this about elected officials, but I would pay to see Rick Perry defend himself against a school shooter with prayer." -Bill Maher

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"In a recent attack ad, the NRA claims that President Obama cares about his own children more than he cares about other children. In response, President Obama was like, 'Yeah, that's how families work.'" -Jimmy Fallon

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"Thousands of dead fish have now washed up on shore along the coast of South Carolina. Today the NRA said that this wouldn't have happened if those fish had guns." -Jay Leno

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"Mississippi Governor Phil Bryant on Wednesday asked state legislatures to declare President Obama's new gun control proposals 'illegal,' though I'm not sure if the Mississippi state legislature has that kind of power since it's just thirty hissing possums in a barn." -Seth Meyers

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"One failed attempt at a shoe bomb and we all take off our shoes at the airport. Thirty-one school shootings since Columbine and no change in our regulation of guns." -Daily Show correspondent John Oliver

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"There once was a man name Barack,
Whose re-election came as a shock.
He raised the taxes I pay,
And then turned marriage gay.

And now he's coming after your Glock."

Stephen Colbert, offering his own inaugural poem

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"I'm not advocating for no guns. I like mine and am not about to give them up. But in this country, my uterus is more regulated than my guns. Birth control and reproductive health services are harder to get than bullets. What is that about? Guns don't kill people -- vaginas do?" -Shannyn Moore, Alaska talk radio host and gun owner

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"Oh, you need a magazine that holds 30 rounds? Is that in case the deer starts shooting back?" -The Everlasting GOP Stoppers on Facebook

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"Isn't it ironic that the same people who fear Obama is leading us toward a police state are the same people who are glad the NRA is advocating for a police state." -FB.com/Rachel Maddow Fans

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"Oh, keeping God in schools would have prevented the recent shooting? Please tell me how many cases of child molestation he's prevented in churches."

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"America: Where we fight over who can be allowed to have a marriage license, but don't give a s**t about who can have an assault rifle." -Cully Hamner on Twitter

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"I'm going to tell people that the President is going to take away our math and science books. Maybe the same folks hoarding guns and ammo will buy these too." -The Everlasting GOP Stoppers on Facebook

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"If the government has enough money for teachers' firearms and firearms training, why doesn't it have enough money for school supplies and professional equipment?"

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"NRA logic: Gun-free schools attract killers. So by the same "sound" reasoning...we should not post speed limit signs in front of schools, they just attract maniacal speeders."

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"Oh, we can't pass gun laws because it treads on your liberty? Tell me more about how we must regulate marriage and vaginas."

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"When you think owning a gun is more of a right than being cared for when you are sick you really need to re-examine your priorities!"

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"If you're more concerned about possible delays at the gun shop than you are about the safety of our children and our mental well-being as a nation, then maybe it's not really 'God' you've been praying to at night." -FB.com/Rachel Maddow Fans

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"People are so angry about gun regulation, you'd think they were being denied the right to marry the person they love."

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"So gun laws won't work because criminals don't follow laws? Tell me why do we have laws at all?"

Making jokes about the NRA and Gun Nuts is not difficult, again like "shooting fish in a barrel!"

Andy,

You have done a wonderful job researching your position, but the whole issue is much more complex than simply the presence or absence of firearms.

If it really was that simple the problem would have been solved ages ago.

The real problem is much deeper and people and in particular, their leaders, are loath to face the underlying issues that plague society - and there are many.

One sign that this is true is simply taking a historical look at our society to see that drastic changes have taken place over the last 4 to 5 decades - the Age of the Second Great Awakening, as it is called.

Prior to that age we simply did not have the type of violence we have today. When I was going to school, guns in school were never given a second though. Teens brought their rifles to school (when going hunting afterwards) and no one shot each other up. No one feared a massacre and for good reasons; we were, for the most part, a civil and ordered society.

In the last few decades we started seeing heinous crimes committed toward the innocent, such as school shootings. Why these are happening is a complex problem, yet it is easy to hijack these issues for political gain, and that is exactly what you see.

In part, sensationalization of these events play a large role in their creation and it also paints a disproportionate image of the truth.

This topic has become artificially huge. The impression that the public has is the murder rate is out of control in the US. Perhaps it is, but looking at it in perspective the US is at a 50 year low in murder rates.

That tells me that we are moving in the right direction. I know there is more work to be done, but I feel that work needs to come from true leaders in our community stepping up to heal and lead us to a better place; not from the pen of legislators.

Unfortunately, the only leaders that get any attention are the loudmouths like Jackson and Sharpton (among others) who only have their own interests at heart.

It's a little like raising kids. You can take away the things that they use to cause trouble, but unless you address the underpinning scruples that drive their activity you will always have discord in your house.

I like your post, it was logical and well thought out.

You were the first I believe, to mention that the murder rate is slowly lessening in the USA, albeit, far slower than is really needed.

At the rate it is lowering, it will take a 100 years or more to get to a normal westernized level.

Until the USA is at least in the area of Switzerland, the 2nd worst westernized country, drastic changes need to be made as its a long long way....

Everyone, including you, ignores completely the way the UK has acted with regard to hand guns, and the wonderful results achieved.

It is simply ignored as though it will go away and stop bothering "certain" people....

I reckon that I know why, you all cannot find anything bad to say about the results......they prove again and again that the NRA is driving the problem in the wrong manner to achieve rapid improvements....they simply make the problems worse!!

Also, its the old NIH syndrome, well documented and well known.

Well, my whole point is that the US is not Europe and has never had the same set of root problems causing the observed effects. We are a nation of nothing more than immigrants from every place around this globe. It's amazing we get along at all.

This is what I consider a fatal flaw to a lot of these arguments. Citing the UK's situation is not the same thing as the driving factors in the US.

Lastly, as irritating as the NRA can get sometimes, they are the only organization in this debate (pro or con) that actually has programs that are designed specifically to address gun violence and accidents. While every other organization is loud mouthing their way down the road, the NRA has created successful programs to educate children on the perils of firearms with their Eddie Eagle program.

The NRA also sponsors firearm instruction, which is top notch, for those of us that want to learn responsible ownership and use of firearms.

The NRA also vigorously promotes enforcement of existing firearm laws rather than senseless new legislation that does little more than make it feel like someone is doing something.

Hollywood and the violent video game industry does none of that; instead glorifying the very acts you (and I) abhor. Yet, Hollywood has no problem criticizing and shaming the ownership of firearms. The pen, being mightier than the sword, has little regulating it from slandering the truth.

The axe I have to grind is that anytime something happens bad there are a minority of loudmouths whose only solution to problems is to continue to strip people of their liberties because addressing the root problems are just too embarrassing to look at in the mirror.

Teaching children to shoot guns may be a great idea for areas of central Africa, but as happened recently in the US, 8 year old girls can accidentally kill their instructor......They are often not physically strong enough to hold the weapon firmly in the right direction....they also don't have or shouldn't have either the mentality either....

I personally have never ever heard of such types of accidents outside of the USA.....

A child of that age has killed, that will stay with her for the rest of her life.....

Truly wonderful US of A.....

There are NO possible excuses for such accidents....somebody losing their life.

Citing the fantastic work in the UK after FAR FEWER "accidents, is correct as it shows what CAN be done if the will is there....

I get the impression and not just on CR4, that is has become "normal" for such things in the USA, many folks are simply blase about it!! Why worry.....

Why Andy do you make such a song and dance about it.....normal business....

Will these people follow German gun laws, knowing that most of the nation is unarmed?

They aren't going away Andy.

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/sharia-police-on-patrol-in-germany-video/2014/09/07/

Will you still say that as long as you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about, when your law is Sharia?

Besides Andy, our government hasn't even given us a good reason, or any reason, for collecting and storing our every communication. It certainly isn't about terrorism...our president wiped that out.

There's no reason to trust them at this juncture, therefore, it's really not a good time to begin rewriting our constitution...or, set of "negative liberties", as some people refer to it.

The information that I read in that German magazine was that the sweeping storage of data and attacking of computer networks WAS ONLY DONE OUTSIDE OF THE USA, ME FOR EXAMPLE! Except I have nothing criminal! (I drive too fast some days!!)

In the USA, they do it only for suspected criminals.....so they say.....

But even if, as you believe, they do it to all in the USA, what do you have online that is negative for you personally. If you say (and its true!) nothing. THEN YOU HAVE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT!

But of course, if some things you do are illegal........then start worrying!!

Did you read the link in the OP?

Why would they set up fake cell towers across the US to spy outside the US?

No, they have a full fledged data collection plan going on here, on ordinary citizens. Our information is collected and stored.

In addition to storing info on millions of Americans:

We are to believe that an agency that was targeting us, lost thousands of Emaiils due to near simultaneous hard drive crashes. I don't think so.

We have a government that is pitting us against each other by any means necessary; class, color, gender, orientation, social status, anything to spread the seeds of hatred.

They have executed American citizens without giving them a trial.

They have essentially told our border agents to stand down, allowing tens of thousands of illegals to enter our country. Nobody knows anything about them...not even names.

Our country grows more dangerous by the day, and it has nothing to do with legal gun owners. So we can talk about how neat it would be to live in a world without guns, all day long, but it won't be happening in our lifetimes. Not here.

You are remarkably unobservant, but did you somehow read that these people have guns? NO! They don't!! No guns at all.

Do criminals (and a lot not yet caught!) have guns in the USA? YES!

Were they threatening people with guns? NO!

Are people in the USA threatened with guns daily? YES!

Was anyone killed or injured by them? NO!

Are people killed and injured by guns daily in the USA? YES!

Are the Sharia Police easily picked out in a crowd? YES!

Are the Gun carrying Criminals easily picked out in a crowd in the USA? NO!

Are they all over the country? NO! Tiny pockets in few areas....

Are the Gun carrying criminals Basically all over the USA? YES!

Are the German Firearm deaths in any way similar to the USA? NO! They are at less than 10% per Capita. eg. Less than one tenth of the USA!

Do the Sharia Police regularly get punched and kicked by drunken Germans in club districts? YES! Which is why they go in 3s or 4s...

In the USA probably not seen at all, as they would be shot on sight by many so called "law abiding citizens!"

HOW IN (any) GODS NAME DOES THE SHARIA POLICE RELATE TO THE GUN CRIME IN THE USA?????? WHY ARE THEY IN ANY WAY SIMILAR??????

Please explain for us all to read...here on CR4!

I do realise that you actually ignore all questions that you cannot answer, but many here see that too, so its not just to see your actual answers to these problems, but also you LACK of answers, which is usual!!

My opinion is that you are STILL clutching at (the wrong) straws again!!!

I am sure, that if you search long and hard enough, there will be something here in Europe worse than the USA. I have no idea what it is, but it will have NOTHING to do with gun crime I can promise you that!! We are simply far better at controlling it....

You are already having problems to find anything that even remotely "smells" as bad as gun crime in the USA, here in Europe!! You attempt with the Sharia Police is simply laughable like most of your posts!!

The USA might be a far better and safer place for all concerned with thousands of unarmed Sharia Police reinforcing the local Police force in areas strong in gun violence! Now how about that for an idea?

NRA Answer to that might be:- "Hey, we got targets!!!"

You forget that approximately 50% of US Citizens do not possess guns and these people would like to see less gun crime and less guns....

You do understand that Muslims fully plan to one day have a majority in Europe, right?

Once that happens, they will become the government, and all will live by their laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country

I understand that you think that any government is good government, but that's just not the case.

I do not believe it will happen overnight, probably not at all, my personal take is MOST UNLIKELY.

....the next Reagan will drop so many bombs on them someday......wait up!!

What percentage of practising Muslims live in the USA? I looked on Wikipedia and found two interesting sentences for you:-

1) Islam in the United States is a minority religion, the 3rd largest faith in America, after Christianity and Judaism, representing 0.8% of the population. Thats quite small!!

2) While an estimated 30% of the slaves brought to colonial America from Africa arrived as Muslims, Islam was stringently suppressed on plantations. Not having had slaves might have reduced the problems.....

Back on topic...

This thread is about one more spying technique that is being used to pry into the lives of law abiding US citizens. It's wrong.

All government is not "good" government.

It's the recognition that government is prone to do terrible things to it's citizens when given unrestrained power, that led to our right to keep and bear firearms, along with a litany of other restrictions on our government, that they are now ignoring.

We can talk crime statistics and European gun bans, but it's a different subject and should be done in a separate thread.

I think this may sum it up nicely for all: Give a person a gun, .......and he can rob a bank.

Give a person a bank,.......and he can rob everyone.

Give the USA a liberty,......they will rob the world.

If you were a student in history it would be easy for you to answer your own question, for there are more than enough examples that prove my point correct.

Even in the USA there is a slow erosion of rights. The Patriot Act is but one example where a little liberty has been traded for a little perceived security.

Even the TSA is a good example where our privacy is being infringed on for the sense of security they bring. Consider that the TSA has not actually once caught a terrorist and every terrorist that has managed to get onto an aircraft was only caught after he tried and failed to execute his plan due to his own incompetence. We pay $7.4 billion each year to fund that agency. I am not saying that they are useless, but is a lot of money for so little to show.

You might also look into the number of guns that are missed in the TSA checks to get an understanding of how poorly the system really is, but it is readily apparent that the consequences of the TSA has clearly increased the waiting time to get into the secure areas. Yes, the TSA is improving, but you still have to stop and be searched, which is controversial with regard to our 4th Amendment.

You are entitled to your opinion when it comes to trading liberty for security, but history is not necessarily on your side. Looking east should give you some modern day examples of the issue.

On CR4, I read your comments, everyone's comments, I then often pose questions relating to a comment.

I search out legitimate links from reputable sources showing "How it is!"

But

NONE OF YOU CAN ANSWER WITH ANY FACTS OR LINKS!!!!

You just go off on a new tangent, ignoring the FACTS I found!!! But find none of your own!!

Are you ALL politicians??? Or better said FAILED politicians????Thats how you act!!

Look back if you don't believe me....

Start answering any and all questions posed to you....surely there must be some crap somewhere that supports your opinions??

GO LOOK!!

Your "facts" are internet diatribe...just like your posts.

Another value added opinion from the good 'ole WWW.

Dubya³?

Quack quack quack

Again, infantile comments!! You really are simply very childish.....

But none here expect anything better from you under Anon 1 or your real name.

No support for you with either name from others.....which is surprising as most people here come from the USA.......may I make a guess at 95% Americans to the rest of the world on CR4, just a guess....no facts at my finger tips....

Name calling and hiding behind Anon again, what is your mental age? 8 or 9 maybe? Less?

I can only laugh......at how pathetic your post really is.....

IF you were a man, or IF you were sure of your subject, or IF you had some good grey matter somewhere - YOU WOULD HAVE POSTED UNDER YOUR OWN NAME.....but you didn't!!

That says it all......

What is really funny now is you cannot now come "crawling out of the woodwork" and tell us who you really are, even though we all know!!!

Its really hilarious.....best joke of the year!!!

A good tip for you for the future, don't post anonymously.....or if you do, you have to be far more clever in/with your comments!!!

I am not clever enough, big difference is, I know IT!!

Have a great day anyway.....

Talk about name-calling! You pathetic old fart...

It is clear the USA has a big problem, and a very divided hopeless population who just accept bullying and love to bully the world. Self preservation? Perhaps! The fact is clear, the USA has no right at all, to do this despicable spying and and they are no better than the terrorist/criminals/whatever they want to call them,they claim to be to trying to stop.

What an oppressed nation and they want to oppress the rest of the world? Have they no shame?

I am out of this and I would appreciate your govt staying out of my business, my email, my calls and my life, and the rest of the worlds business. They have nothing to offer anyone except BS.

Out of here!

Where do you live might I ask?

I have REALLY got you riled up!!! Remember, you started with the names!!! NOT ME.....

Remember "Sticks and stones........?

For me it was too easy, I know that the real truth upsets a certain class of considered mental defective type of person....they simply want to re-write everything as they wish it to be....the modern name is a "Sociopath"....the Soviet Union did it big time under Stalin!!

If you (or anyone else) want to learn more about this "state of mind" I can supply plenty of online infos for anyone interested. Learning how to find out who is and who isn't really changed my life. Such people used to upset me, now I know them for what they are and also know that nobody can change them.

The prisons in all countries are full of them as they eventually get caught out.

Anyone wanting more infos please send me a private CR4 email.

You are simply that person.....you have demonstrated that time and time again.....

You will never ever change.....so look in the mirror and say "Hi" from me!!!

As I said before, "its like shooting fish in a barrel".....

English major...

Who knows......you your grandchildren

I can supply plenty of online infos info

I like to shoot fish, too!

Big Brother is Watching you.