Energy, Food for Thought

Sounds conspiratorial, but I don't believe that any technology that frees us from the grid is going to see the light of day...at least not large scale. I've seen too much evidence that it will be supressed.

There's simply too much money/ political power at stake to allow us to make and use our own electricity.

Once we realize that "saving the planet" is nothing but an agenda driven political talking point that is designed to guilt us into giving up our rights and subjecting ourselves to slavery, along with the entire global warming hoax, one has to accept the fact that without a full scale revolution from the "little people", we will continue to have our lives controlled by the corporate/ political oligarchs.

I know I get yelled at for being too political, but there are government agencies, (local, state, and federal), that are preventing people from raising a few chickens or having a vegetable garden on their own land...they're sure not gonna stand for us generating our own electricity.

Anything that smacks of a relatively easy transition to independence from the systems that we have been cultured to depend on, will be regulated out of existence.

I'd love to hear a politician say that the key to solving global warming is to eliminate the grid and move to small, independent power generation.

It will never happen.

oh Kramyou're just soooooooooo jaded

perhaps you and Kram can secede from the union and start your own country

Ha!!!!

We can't even secede from the f*cking grid.

Good one.

Wanna meet me over on C-span and listen to a climate change speech?

Algore is now quoting from the Bible.

Thought about it but my wife might use her big frying pan and I don't always wear my tin hat. Also for a reference point I live in Indiana.

LOL!!

What many forget is that the hundreds of miles of cables laid to get to your (and all other on-grid) house(s) cost money to originally install and maintain.

Thats where they have you by the Cojones.....

I assume you picked your house out yourself.....

An off grid house is often difficult to sell by the way....in many areas......look around!

If you want to go off grid in many countries, you need to buy/build a house where the grid is not an option... Many do it in Spain I believe.....Australia, S.Africa, to name but a few....I bet there are places in the USA too if you look around carefully....

But DON'T start where the grid already IS!!

In Germany, you need to get a license BEFORE you install to allow you to "feed back" to the grid and get paid for it....also special electronics must be bought and used....its not cheap fun...the payback is FAR slower than they lead you to believe!!

But as Kramat pointed out I believe in this blog, on June 6th 2014, the whole country of Germany reached 50% of power used from windmills and solar systems for the first time....during the day only though!!

A year after Spain, the sunniest country in Europe, issued notice of a law forcing solar energy-equipped homes and offices to pay a punitive tax, architect Inaki Alonso re-installed a 250 watt solar panel on a beam over his Madrid roof terrace. "The government wanted people to be afraid to generate their own energy, but they haven't dared to actually pass the law," Alonso said as he tightened screws on the panel on a sunny summer day this month. He had removed solar panels from the roof last year. "We're tired of being afraid," he said. Andy: the utilities companies have been paid several times over for the installed grid, cables, poles conductors, insulators, equipment etc. (Admittedly, the new equipment being so expensive, is still being paid for on new builds). The industry is over regulated, lobbied by corporations which the private person cannot afford to compete in. As Kramarat pointed out, there is advantage to being off grid, (for the grid and the country). His idea of a micro grid is feasible and makes perfect sense from a security point of view. The hassle becomes that the grid owners loose millions, the government looses million in tax revenue and the whole balance of 'power' (pun intended) changes from a select few to Jo Public. Not what a government wants nor a grid owner. Australia, USA offered big incentives to Jo Public to go solar. As soon as Jo Public went solar, the pay back rates were drastically cut, now you get a credit. The grid owners knew then they were going out of business. Why you think the windmill feeds were only used in the day time, is beyond me as they are capable of producing 24/7 and electricity consumption is lower at night, in most countries. Germany, like any other country, exports more power than they utilise locally. Fact! So, if the country used the clean energy and dropped export to gain profits, the country would be using 80-100% of clean energy. As for being in an off grid area, they costs are so prohibitive to have a grid supply as one pays per meter/kilometer for a connection, (Australia, UK, USA, Ireland, RSA), it becomes far cheaper to install your own system. I know for a fact in S Africa, Irelnd and the UK, the grid owner will supply to a distribution box on a street or road, if they have a close enough distribution cable or OH line near by. (That has a cost to the client and, from the DB to your home is a further cost to yourself). So by the time one has paid all the exorbitant costs, it is more cost effective to have you own system off grid. The reason people are reluctant to buy off grid homes is due to the fact that they have a comfort zone and simply lazy to look after their own little grid system, or they don't now much about them or cannot be troubles with all the BS, laws, regulations, rules that are imposed on them to be off grid. I for one think we should be off grid completely, every home having its own cost effective solar supply and only use the grid if necessary, (a back up). It is rammed down out throat that the world has changed, is it not time for the grid owners and governments to understand their statements about change? What would the world do with millions of privately owned mini power generators? That is a big shift in opinion, rules, regulations, and who is in control. Many in RSA have back up gen sets as ESKOM load sheds, has continuous black outs and is unreliable. Privately owned micro stations have potential there and there are many roof tops, that can be utilised. Adelaide, S Australia use solar on government buildings, so why can't the rest of the world use it too. No one needs to dedicate land to this, just some common sense and utilising open space that is a waste of space. Solar street, park lighting to start with, no cables, no digging up, no cable faults, no reinstating paths and roads. Massive cost saving to the tax payers. We install massive billboards along roads and highways, change them to solar panels and make better use of the rubbish advertising hoardings. Different view point.

Very difficult to read, you appear to have never heard of paragraphs....If you write like that again, I will not be bothering to read it, OK? I am not alone either....so if you want to make your point, write properly or better, not post.....

(If you have troubles with CR4 editor, then simply write it in an editor of your choice, offline, copy and paste it when finished. Its quite easy if you know how!)

By the way, Germany will switch off the photovoltaic on a day with an eclipse.

Windmills are not photovoltaic....that is if you meant Germany!!! It was not very clear from your post!!

Firstly, I made sure I had clear concise paragraphs. Edited more than 3 time to have this stupid system change it when posted. I did notice, too late. So for technology, F it, pisses me off when it decides for me. Pasting it does the same. Always someone in judgement and always something screwing one around. That said, ......... Wind coupled to solar works 24/7. Wind farms are abundant, no reason to have power stations. Every home can have a mill and panel. They work in harmony. The whole point made is that power companies will stop anyone being off grid due to their potential huge losses they will incur . If we all had our own private supply, either wind, solar, hydrogen, biofuel, gen sets, thermal, or whatever, the big companies have no say in the market place. They have no income, no profits, so they have no more monopoly or over ruling decision in the market place. Do you think they want Jo Public killing their business? Still agree with K, micro grids are the key to safety and integrity of continued power supplies. Individuals who want their own mini grid should be encouraged, not penalised. And if this comes out as a huge paragraph. don't read it.

There you go, a bloody system changing my paragraphing. Screw this for a game of soldiers. Just admit K has a valid point and I concur with him. Done!

It doesn't take a crystal ball...just a little imagination.

Throw away your scruples and morals, place yourself in a position of incredible power over people's lives, know that those people are the funding mechanism for everything you have, and then think about the things you would do to protect it.

You have to give free stuff to corporate because they pay for your campaigns; you have to give free stuff to the non-workers because they cast the votes that put you where you are.

There is simply no way that you can allow the middle class working stiffs to get out of funding everything...ever.

Your vote is so important that I'm willing to run ad campaigns that tout poverty as cool and viable.

at one time everyone rode a horse or walked.........things do change, we're seeing a gradual change to hydrogen and gasoline is headed to its 9th inning, it wont be sudden but it wont be stopped once it gets rolling

That's ridiculous, there's nothing stopping anybody from disconnecting from the grid and generating their own power, other than cost.....If you doubt that then go out and buy yourself a generator and see....

Pretty crazy, huh.

As you read this link, I want you to bear in mind that the president, just days ago, while he was supposed to be talking about ISIS, told us that climate change was the single greatest threat facing the planet.

Why in the world would such an earth loving freak want to stop the flow of cheap solar panels?

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2014/08/chinese-solar-tariffs-could-slow-renewable-energy-adoption-in-the-us

Looks like the planet takes a back seat to helping his political cronies, eh?

If the planet is dying, we shouldn't be paying any taxes at all when we make moves to save it. What's a little tax money in the scheme of things?

So you think we should allow Chinese manufacturers to dump sub-standard panels that have about a 50/50 chance of working, on the US market until they put all the US companies out of business...? I'm sure glad you aren't in any position of authority....

Prove that they are sub-standard. Obama required no such proof, and furthermore, I suspect that they worked just fine...hence the tariff to protect his corporate cronies.

Since our planet is dying from man made CO2, why not just inspect for quality? After all, without alternatives we're all dead and the oceans will boil over.

All US companies will be out of business once the planet is dead from man made CO2.

Oops!

http://www.greenworldinvestor.com/2011/03/29/cheap-solar-panels-five-most-affordable-solar-panel-brands/

Please also remember, that some of the cost cutting features of Chinese products are:-

1) Underpaid labour force

2) Lack of proper safety precautions at all levels

3) Dumping of waste hazardous materials simply anywhere - which may not affect us today, but your grandchildren may never taste seafish because the oceans have been poisoned by China....

4) Actively supporting a communist country financially

Most of the above are allowed in the USA, and these things also add to production costs too....

GA

The Chinese are simply breaking the agreement for international trade.

They could do it without breaking the law but it takes FAR longer....its called "fair" competition.

Do you know WHY they do that, its actually simple?

China supplies a "thing", in this case solar cells at below production cost, the Chinese government picks up the loss in this case, for several years or more for the manufacturers.

The industry that makes the "thing" in the target country, simply goes out of business due to unfair competition (in this case, Obama won't subsidise the industry for example....which he is often NOT allowed to do by international agreements anyway!)

Once the local competition is dead, then the Chinese companies raise the price and sell their badly made "crap" into a country with no homegrown competition at a vastly inflated price.

Plus, many people, in this case Americans, are put out of work.....

You appear from your post, to be supporting China!!!

Or am I reading your post wrongly?

If I am reading it wrongly, can you re-write it to reflect accurately your opinions on this subject?

Thanks in advance.

Not that I in anyway agree with what what China is doing, , but it is now the case, particularly in Australia where Chinese goods have control of the market, if you want a particular item...........the only ones you can get are made in China..........a sorry state of affairs.

I had a 5kW solar system installed nearly three years ago........the panels where made in China, (they did have a good write up), and as yet no trouble with them at all, the inverter was Japanese,.......the Chinese do make half price inverters, but the write up on the them was not too good.

Another interesting point is South Australia, where I live has a pretty profitable tuna industry.........the only tuna you can buy here comes from Thailand.........just about all tuna caught and farmed in South Australian waters goes to Japan.......they are prepared to pay the big dollar for it. The entire fresh fish market is pretty poor, unless you are prepared to go to the market or one of the few fish factory outlets, but it is not cheap.........the supermarket chains sell most of their seafood from Vietnam or China.........why people buy it, who knows......I guess, because it is cheap.

Once the local competition is dead, then the Chinese companies raise the price and sell their badly made "crap" into a country with no homegrown competition at a vastly inflated price.

Sounds like Wallyworld. A subsidiary of China.

Examples abound of innovative new technology disrupting large industries that had previously controlled the entire market. Powerful lobbying efforts only slow the inevitable.

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Think about land line phones. Those were powerful companies. The ones that still retain some power accepted and joined the move to innovate.

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Think about news papers and companies that publish phone books/yellow pages. Those that remain powerful did not stand in the way of new technology, but embraced it.

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People use to have to go to an ice house to get their ice. Those who transitioned to selling home refrigerators probably had a better chance at prospering.

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A technology with obvious disruptive potential, such as the one being discussed in this thread, will be seen by politicians as something to protect and champion, as they try to attract jobs to their state and campaign funds to their coffer.

Sure there will be lobbying efforts trying to oppose the inevitable, but those efforts will not go unopposed.

"America came to be by empowering the individual with complete freedom."

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Close. The formal beginning of this country included enumeration and intent to uphold certain rights considered to be inalienable. I think it is a pretty good list, but it isn't 'complete freedom' nor should it be.

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To be fair, in the beginning it didn't apply to 'the individual' as in 'every non-felon adult citizen'. Early on, with few exceptions, 'the individual' would need to be both male and white to be the beneficiary of any empowerment.

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Somehow, sex between two consenting adults behind closed door, even if those doors are at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, doesn't seem like anyone's business other than those people and perhaps their spouses.

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I don't have any good info Cheney reaping rewards from no bid contracts, but my suspicion is that if it is true it pales in comparison to the damage done to this country by numerous other actions he was responsible for. Still, without hard evidence, it is just a guess. Even with hard evidence, the chances for holding him, or any archvillain accountable for their misdeeds would be abysmal, and any such undertaking would would be dangerous and expensive.

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I'm glad to see you are commenting more regularly again.

You should go here, Kramarat, where there are people interested in evidence against your point of view. The comments after each story are by people with actual connections to reality, and considerable education. Of course, you'll dismiss them as not having legitimate evidence, but you haven't actually supplied links to prove your statements, so that'll be all right. http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/

Please post examples of these types of "happening" that you mention, that also have a weblink or three, I am really interested to learn more.

Thanks in advance.

Okay. First we have to assume that our president isn't a scumbag liar, and our planet is dying from man made CO2. I'll post the relevant codes if you like.

Lets assume that I'm interested in saving the planet and run through some scenarios:

1) I go to buy solar panels that I can afford, and my president slaps a 47% tax on them.

2) I go to place my expensive solar panels on my roof, but can't get a permit because my structure isn't built to hold the weight.

3) I decide to put my expensive solar panels in my 1 acre yard, but I can't because I am already maxed out on my allowable impermeable land surface.

4) I decide to buy one of Fredski's "personalized" swimming pool hydrogen generators, but I can't, because Lockheed just bought it all up.

5) I decide to build my own hydrogen generator, but I can't, because hydrogen is explosive, and I'm already on Obama's DHS watch list because I've mentioned the constitution too many times.

6) I decide to install my own windmill, but I can't because I'm back to going over my allowable impermeable land surface, plus there's probably a noise ordinance.

So as I sit here on my dying little blue orb, my earth that the president claims is almost dead if we don't take action...will someone explain to me just how easy it is to get off the grid? I just want to do my part.

I almost forgot Andy.

There's a little known guy that died broke and destitute due to politics and cronyism, and he had more than a couple of good ideas.

Try a google search on a fella named Tesla. His thoughts on free or cheap energy for the masses made him, at the time, the most hated man in America, and he was crushed like an insect.

I'll be waiting with bated breath for my Lockheed Martin home hydrogen generator.

They'll probably even have a payment plan.

Now what has Tesla to do with what you were saying? How long has he been dead? 70 yearsor so?

I found this on his Wiki page (I can gve you the link if you are unable to locate it by yourself) :-

Tesla was renowned for his achievements and showmanship, eventually earning him a reputation in popular culture as an archetypal "mad scientist."^[8] His patents earned him a considerable amount of money, much of which was used to finance his own projects with varying degrees of success...

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In July 1888, Brown and Peck negotiated a licensing deal with George Westinghouse for Tesla's polyphase induction motor and transformer designs for $60,000 in cash and stock and a royalty of $2.50 per AC horsepower produced by each motor. Westinghouse also hired Tesla for one year for the large fee of $2,000 ($52,500 in today's dollars^[47]) per month to be a consultant at the Westinghouse Electric & Manufacturing Company's Pittsburgh labs.

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Tesla was not without his major faults, however, as he supported the use of population control via eugenics and forced sterilizations. The Nazi party and Hitler believed in eugenics too......!!

So he had money....a lot of it too!! And he had very bad tendencies.....eugenics!!!

Poor and reclusive, when he died. So what did he do with all his money.....??? He was in modern money, a multi millionaire several times over at various stages in his life....Maybe he gave generously to the poor while feeding the pigeons....?

Nor that politics and cronyism had any great effect on him....he disagreed with Edison and left, Edison was most unlikeable too.....but the Tesla ideas/inventions, sold to Westinghouse, still power the world!!!

He seems to have wasted his money on ideas that simply did not work....as far as I can tell....but he HAD money....just used it badly...

You try and twist facts around to suite your own ideas, but in fact it just makes you look as though you lack comprehension.....the effect is appalling....why do you do it????

PLEASE POST WEBLINKS THAT PROVE YOU TO BE RIGHT AND ME TO BE WRONG!!

Look here for some true facts:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikola_Tesla

http://www.biography.com/people/nikola-tesla-9504443#death-and-legacy

"...There's a little known guy that died broke and destitute due to politics and cronyism, and he had more than a couple of good ideas.

Try a google search on a fella named Tesla. His thoughts on free or cheap energy for the masses made him, at the time, the most hated man in America, and he was crushed like an insect...."

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des·ti·tuteˈdestiˌt(y)o͞ot/adjectiveadjective: destitute

without the basic necessities of life.

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Tesla was residing in the New Yorker hotel at the time of his death. The New Yorker hotel was among the most sought after/fashionable hotels in New York at the time. Staying in luxury accommodations for the wealthy can hardly be called being destitute.

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As far as being the most hated man in America, it is worthwhile to note that the mayor of New York ready a eulogy for Tesla over the radio and that there were actually two funerals. The state funeral was attended by more than 2000 people and another funeral with prominent priests..... at least that's what Wikipedia says.._{.go ahead check if you must, but do it quickly,edits are sometimes undone fairly quickly.}

LOL!

Also true!!

Where are the weblinks????

Otherwise it just looks "made up!"

Thanks in advance.

Andy. I'm gonna hope that one of my American friends can vouch for the validity of what I said.

Here's a start:

http://www.thesolarguide.com/solar-energy-systems/laws-and-permits.aspx

These rules apply to the operation of all gaseous and liquefied hydrogen systems. A person shall comply with these rules, other applicable state and federal statutes, and rules and regulations promulgated under the statutes.

I'd like to hear from someone that has made through the maze.

http://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-35299_42271_4115_4237-193832--,00.html

So here we are... I'm being watched for pointing out the treasonous illegitimacy of our current administration, I'm not allowed to help save the planet, even though it's in critical condition, and to top it all off, an adherent to the most peaceful religion on earth just cut a woman's head off in Oklahoma.

Another incident of workplace violence like Fort Hood. Dang!

If only people understood that if we can get the minimum wage up to $15 an hour, creating a new base to jack up the union scale, this violence would end.

Maybe, maybe not.

APS wants to put free solar panels on 3,000 homes

Arizona Goes Solar > Utility Incentives > Arizona Public .

Arizona - Solar Power Rocks

I'd like to see it.

What pisses me off even more than the constant babble about global warming, is that from a national security perspective, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of tiny grids would protect us from attack.

I just took time out from my new Andy argument, (before we do another breakroom beat down), and read an article about the vulnerability of the US electrical grid.

They know for a fact that the terrorists, (and maybe even the Russians and Chinese), are looking closely at it. They also know for a fact that any sustained outage will result in mass death.

As it stands, we're sitting ducks.

A couple of quotes:

The first is in regard to the 2011 rocket assault in Yemen.

"It proves that al-Qaida and the Taliban are aware of the key societal vulnerability that is the power grid."

Peter Pry- executive director of the Task force on National and Homeland Security

"The destruction of the power grid would be nothing short of catostrophic."

"If the power goes off and stays off, our nation and the vast majority of it's population will cease to exist."

Frank Gaffney- president of the Center for Security Policy

Keeping the grid as is, in order to protect a reliable stream of revenue into the federal coffers, is stupid.

And if the planet is truly dying, anything that can help stop it should be readily available and tax free.

We'll never hear about these baby hydrogen generators again...at least not from Lockheed.

Although, the concept is so simple that I doubt they will be able to stop it.

Saved by Brown's Gas. Whodda thunk it?

It'll be interesting to see if our government is willing to impose fines, use violence, and hand out prison time to stop this from happening. I think yes.

I was jesting Andy.

I was kind of hoping we could discuss gun violence in the US. It's obvious from the OP that that's what Fredski really wanted to talk about.

Show me anywhere on the planet where there are millions of tiny grids.

Think back to your youth.

One power company. One telephone company. One water company. One highway system. All monopolies or flat-out government organizations.

Today, the national power grid is the most vulnerable of all. Mostly because of the cost vs risk ratio and the fact that politicians no longer work for the common good of voters.

Today, our government doesn't take the lead in anything except "defense" spending, corporate welfare and social programs.

If the power does go off, for even a week, pandemonium would set in. In August in Arizona, that would mean no cooling, no water, no fresh food and no gas or cold beer for Joe six-pack. Longer and the bodies would begin to pile up in the streets.

Forget "global warming". Nobody knows what it is anyway.

I'll have to make a hard left.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/23/1308923/-50-6-of-Germany-s-electricity-produced-by-solar-power-on-June-6-also-achieves-grid-parity#

Of course, once the morons at the Daily Kos realize that freedom costs union jobs, they will be picking up their hammers and sickles, and smashing solar panels to pieces.

I'll just say it....there are cheap and plentiful ways to produce electricity, that are being supressed by corporate/ political interests...and you know I'm right.

Somebody knows what Tesla built down in Texas, and they know it worked. If it didn't, we would be able to download plans.

Firstly, that has cost a huge amount of money that most countries simply do not have.

It comes at a price, the 20 odd % from Photo Voltaic, cannot be used on days with a solar eclipse.....the next one is this year and all systems have to be switched off!!!

Its only one day in 5 years or so, but almost funny!!

Remember this one?

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/85716

I love you Andy.

Out by the pool watching 4 kids swim. The sound of the pump motor is drowning out the him of the AC unit that is running. There is literally a steady stream of condensate running out of the AC drain pipe, so I know it's on.

I love the grid.

Our bill may be $300-350 dollars in the hottest summer month. Nuclear power is cheap here in AZ.

In Minn. we get our power from the wind farm just south of town.

I love the grid.

I'm one of those closet greenies.

Hit almost $200 in a month of 100° days, thermostat at 68º. Time to cut wood. From now till May or June, my electric bill will be about $50 for 3 people in a 2000 sq ft house.

Oddly enough, I hate waste as much as I hate politics. I just haven't joined a church.

That sounds like Groucho Marx re joining a club.

Me too.

I'd never want to join any club that would have me as a member.

Yep. I would never admit it on CR4, but I ended up crying yesterday morning.

They're putting in a subdivision about 5 miles from me, and I thought I might be able to score some fire wood. You can't really see what they are doing from the main road.

I pulled in and looked down into a 100 acre basin in which old growth forest had been decimated and pushed into piles.

This was accomplished with 2 or 3 young Mexican kids running the heavy equipment for a couple of weeks.

I couldn't believe my eyes. 200 year old oak trees just killed and pushed into piles. I asked one of the kids what they do with the wood, and he told me that they bring in giant chippers and turn them into mulch.

Sad.

One would think that we would have at least enough respect to turn these majestic trees into furniture or something. But we don't care...they are merely obstacles to progress.

Due to potential liability issues, I don't even think they will let me go in there and secure my winter heat for the next decade.

Sad, but if the county planning board doesn't insist on saving the old wood, There's probably too much bother to sell it.

That is nothing compared to what Weyerhaeuser did in the south after they bought out the local forest company. They clear cut millions of acres, made paper out of the Pines and burned all the hardwood. Nothing left standing at all for miles.

Looked like thermonuclear war. They decimated everything within 20 feet of my property line along one 10 acre parcel.

Yeah. Happens here all the time.

One of the instances that I would be on board for some government oversight, and it ain't happening. They take an established forest, turn it into a moonscape, and toss up a bunch of expensive boxes. It's sick.

I was a little surprised at how emotional I got at the sight of those 100's of knocked down oak trees. Some of the bases were 5 -6 feet across.

We're doomed.

Sorry Karmarat, I just catch a couple of the fly by night tree cutters and tell them I will give them $50.00 a load for what they have to pay to dump. Unless they have a offical yard to dump in and then split it for sale or personal use. last time I bought wood was two years ago, and am now just getting down to the bottom of the pile I think I had about $300.00 in all of it. It is amazing what some guys will sell for $50.00, when or if they put a little labor into, it could make $5-600.00.

I didn't really cry. It was more like a single tear from the Indian in 1978 looking out over a polluted river.

Yesterday was my birthday celebration, and I wanted steak and lobster.

I enjoyed a martini with my neighbor and neglected to keep track of my wife.

As we talked about yesteryear, the bitch downed 3 bottles of wine and decided that I'm the source of everything bad in the world.

I logged on to CR4 to feel better about myself.

I ate the steak and lobster, along with a stuffed baked potato, around 12:30 AM. It was delicious...and I didn't have to pretend to care about anyone.

You should get in touch with tcmtech.

O the beauty of the CR4 network!

Misery loves company.

So does happiness.

There's nothing better than being beat up and hated by a bunch of engineers.

There ya go--martyrdom at its finest!

hate is such a strong word

I meant to say love/hate. Thanks for being so loving and thoughtful.

Grasshopper, you are at the very least, provocative thought provoking.

You have as much tenacity as a cast iron bath tub, and you know how an engineer loves a cast iron tub.

This thread, as many do, has turned into a love fest.

I have to go praise my wife now because she is smarter, richer, more tolerant, and better looking than I am.

If I were you, and wanted to join a church, I'd become a Catholic. They drink like sailors and still seem to get into Heaven, whatever that is.

Forget Mormonism. Unless you want multiple wives and are willing to give at least 10% of your gross income to the church and want your own planet after you become a god.

Four mothers-in-law should be ample deterrent. Why don't those fools ever think of that?

Yes. One would think.

We're just a couple of idiots that call CR4 home. A normal person would not do what we do.

We're sick and broken............and it's fun.

power companies are evilhttp://www.cnbc.com/id/102075665

Some things you may not know about the utilities companies. Take it or leave it approach here.

1. You pay for the line losses because they do not maintain the network to a high standard, therefore your costs can be reduced if the grid owners ensured correct line loading, better line cleaning and insulator cleaning.

Line losses can be as high as 15% and that is added to your billing.

Ensured the correct transmission voltage, as designed, was applied, 132kV lines run close to 178kV which is over the design capacity of the conductor and insulators. I have worked with 132kV lines in Au running at 189kV. It did eventually fall out the sky one year later.

2. Lines create microbes which fall from the lines to the ground causing pollution, which in turn affects your health. (indeed, papers have been published on this phenomenon).

So if the utilities did in fact operate their systems more efficiently, electricity would be cheaper.

If you operate your own micro grid for home use, we have less conductor in the air and less pollution from little microscopic bugs that want to eat you.

Hence, back to the problems at hand, cleaner energy from solar, hydrogen cells, cleans up the world. Less over head lines and less microscopic pollution killing us and the animals. I guess the grid owners need to rethink their business and Jo Public needs to be more aware, less sceptical and negative and install his solar panels for his own consumption, and passed on providing the grid with excess power. Use it yourself, you made it, you invested in it, so enjoy your cheaper electric, buy more lights and run more heaters. You can afford to with you own private self contained grid.

Some of we people in the field of electrical power, generated at 1kV up to 500kV AC and 600kV DC know, that the utilities companies cannot pay for your generated electricity from your home power plant. Simply because, they have an abundance of power, in fact to much at times. and,....the back feed from private plants can cause havoc with the network.

Now, if you used your noodle and looked u exporting of electricity, you will find, as I have previously mentioned, that electricity is exported to other countries via the interconnected network, Lets see, England, Scotland Ireland, Wales, France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, I recall Iceland are all interconnected by sub sea cables. Yes I know they are as I worked on some of them. But I need to recheck Iceland. No doubt you will do that yourself.

So power from these countries is exported daily, back and forth, Electric in England is sold in France the same day. The USA, oh yes, California is connected to Texas, connected to N Carolina, connected to ?? all via the network. And the tariff changes by the minute. And it costs a lot when peak demand are high. So the utilities make a lot of money exporting, they make you pay a lot of money for your local supply. So due to tariff settings, they cannot pay you the retail price as it will create much confusion as it depends when you sell them your surplus electric. You might get $10 per MW at 10.00am, Wednesday and $10000.00 per MW at 10.15am the same day.

And, as has happened in most countries with utilities who bought the surplus electric, the utilities soon realized they were paying private people for electric and not being paid for their generation as the home owner did not need the grid electric, so they soon dropped the tariff pay back and gave credits.

So how are you going to use your credits? What do you do with your credits if you sell your property?

And as for the extraordinary claim, you need to crawl out of your comfort zone, notice you are in 2014 and know that some of us actually work in this area and have done so for far to long. Clearly you have internet, look it up yourself rather than deny all that crosses your path. I dare not ask if you have ever heard of Nicolas Tesla or Viktor Grebennikov. Look them up, Tesla, was offering free electric back in 1890. Look up Tesla coils, build two and put them in your garden and have FREE electric from 2 copper conductors in your garden. Or build your own anti gravity device first built in 1923.

Even better, just string up two open copper conductors below a transmission line, shove it through a transformer and have fre electricty from the transmission line to your house. Its a free magnetic field belonging to anyone.

What a sceptic you are sir.

Hey crazy Noah, what you building?

A Boat!

Why?

How long can you tread water?

GA

I have a place for you 2 clowns

Thank you. I love it. And two is actually 3. Its a tag team effort.

I'd pay to see Andy lace em up and step in the ring

My money would be on Andy.