Energy, Food for Thought

Thanks for your confidence and friendliness.....being later this month 68 years old, I could not promise me a good outcome....but I would still give it a go, bare fists and no shirt!! No cissy boxing gloves!!!

In my Navy days I could always throw a good punch or two when needed.

I learnt at the school of hard knocks as a teenager, and I still have some malformed bones in my right right hand from hitting a Guy full in the mouth/jaw. You only do it once, its not the way Hollywood pictures it!! It can hurt :-(

All 8 fingers have been broken at least once, some several times, once all 8 at the same time....... several metacarpal bones as well in both hands...all fights except for the 8 together, but it did start a fight....

Been in a few bar brawls, seen people lose eyeballs, broken arms, wrists fingers and ears, usually due to an elbow in the face....broken cheek bones from a kick or three, which was my personal speciality for unfriendly Guys...

I always let the other Guy throw the first punch, as even then, I find it somehow degrading to fight when argument (what? Nobody ever noticed???) and discussion are actually far better.

But I will (even today) not let anyone walk all over me, not in print, online or face to face!!!). "Sticks and stones" etc.. words never hurt!!

Had a few humdingers of fights, but that is not boxing, that was pure street fighting with glasses and bottles and whatever you get your hands on.....stand up or get out.

Part of the reason that I still only wear a necktie when I must and my hair is NEVER longer than about 1" max, even today its nearer 0.5"....

Long haired people are far too easy to put down!!! The same for ones with a necktie....they have lost before they even started!!

But basically, descending to a brawl is just being an animal.....and shows a complete lack of attention, knowledge and understanding in the language being used....I can still argue in three....

That all brings back some old memories.....and I never forget a fight!!

GA

Also really funny too.....thanks!

I feel that the post in question was a simple demonstration of the USA type of "Conspiracy theories" that seem to abound for little or no reason!!

Reading the article did not suggest that they were evil to me....are you empowered to understand something more than I ?

Please explain, or did you just mean your comment as a joke...

If you mean that they charge more to supply and pay less to store, thats normal.....usually less than 50%, here at any rate......its still better than nothing!!!

Remember, only if the (local) law allows, must they even "take" that excess power off your hands....here they ONLY agree to take it if the cables running into the "district" can handle the "back" power that "may" become available....the exact methods and reasons are not always obvious....

Some agricultural areas do not take it back at all.....so no full payback.....only partial!

I fully understood the article

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/utilities-solar-companies-fight-over-rates

Interesting link. Arguments for both sides....thanks for posting.

But, when the coal/oil gives out, or becomes simply too expensive, then we need the technology to utilise the Sun and wind.

Now is the time to find out and develop.....in 50 years time may be simply too late.....

Unless Fusion is fully developed for our future for example.....is a further possibility....

I also believe, but it seems very difficult in the USA (if I believe some of the posts on this blog!), that people should be able to build houses totally off grid for power, water and sewage - if they wish.....

The problem further arises when houses are already on grid, and people wanting to get them "off"! For many houses/apartments, that will never ever be possible anyway.....not enough land for example....

Its certainly an interesting discussion, that keeps us busy thinking and posting here!!

Interesting link. Arguments for both sides....thanks for posting.

But, when the coal/oil gives out, or becomes simply too expensive, then we need the technology to utilise the Sun and wind.

Now is the time to find out and develop.....in 50 years time may be simply too late.....

Unless Fusion is fully developed for our future for example.....is a further possibility....

I also believe, but it seems very difficult in the USA (if I believe some of the posts on this blog!), that people should be able to build houses totally off grid for power, water and sewage - if they wish.....

The problem further arises when houses are already on grid, and people wanting to get them "off"! Many houses apartments, that will never ever be possible anyway.....

Its certainly an interesting discussion, that keeps us busy posting here!!

Did you drink a shot of tequila and accidentally poop on yourself?

The devil is here, and my answer is the same as it was in 1978.

My damned dog is running in circles. The answer is NO.

The answer is Jesus Christ.

Sh*t

a. No
b. Jesus Christ
c. 42
d. None of the above
e. All of the above
f. Only some of the above.
g. Something other than the 2⁶ possibilities surveyed thus far.

A golden star for you. A shining star. A baby.

This is your single smallest post ever Tinac. I'm proud. Good boy!

What time is it?

Around 00:30 GMT, but the target keeps moving.

Time for another drink.

Your assumption is incorrect. I did not make that comment.

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If the post is anonymous, it is a very safe bet that it wasn't written by me. I have onlt posted anonymously once, and I think it was to make a point in a discussion about eliminating the ability to post anonymously...which I fully support. At the very least it would be nice to have an AP tally right beside the GA tally.

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I would also never answers to a multiple choice question like that. Look at 'e', for example.

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I would also have copied and pasted the question and put it in quotations and likely italics.

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Finally, you shouldn't have been duped into thinking I act so selflessly that if I actually had caught a case of brevity that I wouldn't want to show it off to everyone. I'd be writing gloaty little comments all over the place.

Great and funny post, thanks for making me laugh!

Accurate too I am sure.

Different rules in different countries? Some sensible,some not maybe...

Here, you can be banned from installing when the local cables into an area are simply not "heavy" enough to handle possible "outgoing" power....which is why the license is always the first step.....it seems the USA does it differently!! Better or worse I cannot say?

Exact details from Spain I do not know about....or for most other countries....but in most countries, going off grid is possible, but only if you go about in the right way it would seem....

What is the right way? I want to be off grid! What is required to understand about that? Just like 'No thank you!' Nothing complicated in that.

You missed the point completely.

So you will always have problems in almost any country, when you don't do it as required by the local code.....Simple.

What local code applies to "I don't want your electrical connection?" I have my own!

Maybe you should find out!!! Assuming that it is even true!!

You are the one complaining, I simply don't care about your problems with understanding of such local code.....

Simply not my problem!! Suck it up!!

Now that is a typical reply Andy of anyone who is challenged. Not my problem suck it up, however you would be the 1st to jump on the band wagon and shout Look at me, I am good.

What people should be sucking up is that we are not all dead fish going with some imagined flow that people love to talk about but have no idea what it actually is.

Said my bit, Suck it up Mildred. Don't rock my boat, or you will go over the side. Thank God, Joule, Ohm, Tesla, Baird, Ford, et al, never rocked the boat. The world would be a in hell of a state if they had been let loose!

There is a good potential for people to be independent of power companies, don't screw it up for those who want to be free of a millstone. It is their future too, not yours alone.

Move house if where you are doesn't float your boat for some obtuse reason!!

I am not to blame for your problems, they are all "local" to you!!!

But I am probably asking too much for you to fully understand.....

Shame about your Avatar.....

Suck it up or move!!!

I prefer the expression FIFO. No, not fly in, fly out! But I do ask, why is it that when someone has a different opinion the spineless return to telling people to leave their homes. Just so typical or control freaks who love to be controlled and want to control others. You have the same approach as a corporation, 'if you don't do what we say, then woe betide you!" Have you no space for anyone's opinion or must we all comply to the same silliness that you all seem to love needing. I am not arguing with you here, but you need to catch yourself on, pull yourself towards yourself and understand, we are all different and have a place on this planet. This is our lives, not yours to control to your ways. If I, or others are so wrong, then go tell the student in Hong Kong how wrong they are according to your idea of how it should be. FIFO my friend. But no hard feelings, you are probably a nice guy, just sitting comfy in a little niche till the end of days. Have a good one.

You are still not understanding the situation you are in apparently!

Simply your post I saw recently on this blog:-

What local code applies to "I don't want your electrical connection?" I have my own!

Comes over not just as childish and naive, but either shows you are simply argumentative over anything, or you simply do not want to understand local laws......(made by the "voted in" politicians by the way....vote them out maybe?)

I cannot say for certain which is more accurate.....but your more recent posts imply/suggest the former to me.....

But assuming for a moment its the local law that is really a problem, you will only make life more difficult if you try and fight it, even if it is not to your personal liking.

Some laws are simply stupid, but they are still the law.....and there is very little hope for an improvement!! Unless you become a local politician and change the law....that might do it!! Then you can easily stay where you live!!!

An old British saying is "the-law-is-an-ass" is explained fully here, (by the way, here "ass" means a Donkey, not your backside!!):-

the-law-is-an-ass

By the way, just complaining fixes absolutely nothing, which is why I keep posting "S.I.U."

What was the old US saying "Shit or get off the pot!". Discussing ways to fix possibly bad local laws on an international blog is to my mind a complete waste of time......but thats just me....

May I suggest that most people (probably 95% or maybe even more!) in your area want power delivered to their door from the power companies via cables, you don't. Can you not see a possible solution to your problem?

By the way, do you ever re-read your posts before sending them? If not, believe me, you should. Or simply mark them as "Rant" at the beginning....then we would all understand.

Do have a great day....remember, you are never alone on CR4!!!

Andy, firstly I don't have a situation at all. Therefore you are mislead by your own thinking and comparing what you may have to that which you think I have. In all honesty, you are no where close to what I have.

Secondly, you are so typically European that when a person says NO, you automatically assume this is an opening to have dialogue and convince the person how wrong they are. Even Jehovah Witness's understand the meaning of NO.

So what law in Germany says you need to pay for a grid connection, that you do not require nor want. Even an Eu law/regulation will suffice.

I prefer the law being an arse, as we know what it is full of.....

N.B. if this comes out as a huge paragraph again, report it in and support my hassles with the CR4 editor. It is pissing me off tremendously. Cheers

To answer you fully, I have copied your reply:-

Andy, firstly I don't have a situation at all. Therefore you are mislead by your own thinking and comparing what you may have to that which you think I have. In all honesty, you are no where close to what I have.

Do you not remember writing the one line I mentioned? I can post it again if needed!

Secondly, you are so typically European that when a person says NO, you automatically assume this is an opening to have dialogue and convince the person how wrong they are. Even Jehovah Witness's understand the meaning of NO.

I am exceedingly proud of my European heritage, stretching back to the Vikings and beyond. As, it appears to me when visiting, are most Americans. Most Americans are some mixture of European heritage, I do not know what percentage......maybe you aren't......

On this page:-

Euro-American

Its easy to see just how many US Citizens come from Europe. Also called Euro-Americans. The first ones were of Spanish origin.

By the way, Jehovah's witnesses here in Europe usually speak with an American accent, here they can't usually even speak German, but hope that the person who lives there understands English (or American, depending upon your viewpoint!). They still do not understand NO, but calling my dog to the door has always got rid of them, not to return for years and years!! Should I show you my dog? Would you then dissappear?

So what law in Germany says you need to pay for a grid connection, that you do not require nor want. Even an Eu law/regulation will suffice.

All houses here are usually automatically connected to the grid when built. Very few are built with no grid connection. No law either way as far as I am aware, but it would be expensive to install later, when it say gets sold to someone else. I actually do not know of a single house in Germany with no grid. I know dozens of houses with a Photovoltaic roof....who "feedback"....

What you then do is apply for a license to generate electricity if you so wish, now that is regulated! In Germany you apply for a license, stating your address, your electricity supplier and exactly where you live and the exact type and manufacturer of the equipment you want to install. It has to be equipment that has been tested and certified to work with the grid in Germany, not cheap but very reliable.

This license only costs a little, I did hear once €100, but I really have no idea, and then only if you have it accepted.....but it takes ages to come back.....months. The installing company usually organizes and pays that.....

I prefer the law being an arse, as we know what it is full of.....

Not quite the old saying, but still true in many areas....

N.B. if this comes out as a huge paragraph again, report it in and support my hassles with the CR4 editor. It is pissing me off tremendously. Cheers.

No you got it right this time!!!

You know the workaround if needed and I even read it!!!

What's this about a huge paragraph? I've noticed increased width and horizontal scroll bar appearing since change to IHS Engineering360, which is a bit of a pain. I've mentioned it to Admin.

Avatar! I don't even have a budgie let alone an avatar. > Chiefly Hinduism a manifestation of a deity or released soul in bodily form on earth; an incarnate divine teacher. > an incarnation, embodiment, or manifestation of a person or idea > ORIGIN from Sanskrit Must go now, my avatar needs a blessing, a walk and some exercise. Be back soon!

Figured out why the paragraphs are getting messed up. My avatar ate the gremlin.

Damned avatar ran off in the woods. Chasing humans no doubt. Now where were we?

Getting far better with your posts, it looks like I have given you a reason to live on without simply complaining!! Really GREAT!!

Well no surprises there!!

IQ,

I think the problem in many places here in the US would arise in trying to obtain a certificate of occupancy. Many places require new construction to have electricity, heating and hot water as conditions to receive a certificate of occupancy.

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There are probably ways to meet those requirements in most places without attaching to local utilities, but my guess is it would be far less intrusive, burdensome, expensive, and headache-filled to simply pay for connection and then build a non-grid-connected system for primary use leaving your minimal grid connections available as a back up for maintenance/repair of your primary.

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I can certainly understand how being coerced into paying for the standard connection that you may never use in order to side step hassle and additional scrutiny could rub a person the wrong way. It is a matter of picking your battles. What is the cost of waging this battle? What is the potential upside/downside?

I think the potential is that on one hand people want to save the planet. People do want to invest their hard earned capital into saving the planet and producing a cost saving to themselves.

They are encouraged daily to conserve, go green, save the planet etc, etc.

On the other hand, big utilities do not want this. They loose big time.

Run you home on hydrogen cells, you car etc. You don't need a grid supplier for this. Use solar, use wind, no grid supplier needed at all.

The grid needs you to depend on them, they can control you and stay in business. Do the maths, 1 million people in the USA alone, off grid, no dependence on a grid network or supplier, lets average a yearly billing of US$3000/p.a x US$1m. The small fact is, I can build you 10, 600kV HV-DC converter stations for that amount of money and still have some change left over for coffee and a few cream buns.

1 Million people off the grid in the USA alone is a drop in the bucket against 318 million people. say 25% live in a stand alone houses, 79 million people. If they all went off grid, utilised their own mini grid, imagine the losses just on electricity. Add the gas suppliers losses when you run on hydrogen.

Massive losses and the government cannot tax you, no VAT/GST, duties, (and god knows what other taxes they impose on people there).

The only utility who could make some money is the water supplier and you could just buy your water in the super market, in a bottle, to run your hydrogen cell.

The fact is; they cannot afford to have you off the grid, so going green is another lip service and a garden path trip for all.

Until of course the supplier can have more laws passed, the government can find a legitimate way to tax you on being green and clean. Oh yes, and being self sufficient.

Do the mathematics!

"....

They are encouraged daily to conserve, go green, save the planet etc, etc.

On the other hand, big utilities do not want this. They loose big time...."

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...If this is the result you obtained when you did 'the mathematics', you should go back and check your work.

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Note that it is common for utility companies to offer customers rebates and other incentives to switch to more energy efficient equipment. Your above claim does not square well with this reality.

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One part that you may be overlooking is that the population, and as a result electricity use, is growing. Existing loads don't typically require much new investment, but increasing capacity to generate and distribute can be very expensive. The result is that the 'mathematics' is slightly more complicated than 'more is better'.

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Another thing to keep in mind is that changes like this, especially those requiring even minor hurdles and personal investment, are generally fairly slow. Even if this were available starting tomorrow for a couple hundred dollar investment for the hydrogen generator, plus some for the fuel cell, inverter and other connections and changes to the house... for loss of demand from adoption to offset new demand due to just normal population growth, would probably easily take more than a decade. That decade+ would be a hay day for electricity utilities, just getting to milk all their old investments without needing to expand capacity.

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I'm not so worried about the tax thing. How much in taxes is it that the government gets from electric utility sales anyway? Whatever it is, I'm sure the government wouldn't die, or even reduce spending down to the level of its tax revenue, should that whole stream dry up.

My simple quick maths based on a very small minority of a single country. I am open to your mathematics.

I liked your post, it brings some sensible "real world" comments with it. Thanks from me personally.

Many never think "real world", they just want to "butt" their head against local code (as in this example)....a battle that many are unlikely to win!! So why fight in the first place?

I do not believe it would take that long. I forgot where i heard it but the statement was "we are only three meals away from a riot."

You will have to move to a 3rd world country if you want to build with no need for planning permissions........

One could always go and chop down and burn some pristine jungle in the Amazon and turn it into a dust bowl (we probably need more dust bowls?).........OR...........do a similar thing in Indonesia and start growing oil palms for palm oil at the expense of the Orangutans.......or whatever suits?????

It is apparent that it is OK to do these things, and to hell with everyone else, just don't stop me from making a living!!!!!

You seem to have missed the point, I was addressing the ones who complain about too many laws and regulations, who want to just "throw something up" so to say. (I would say Barf!!)

I live and abide by the laws of the country where I am....I may not always like them, but I stay within them.

If they don't want to do that, then they should get going and move!!! But not me Buddy!!

"...

Lets assume that I'm interested in saving the planet and run through some scenarios:

1) I go to buy solar panels that I can afford, and my president slaps a 47% tax on them...."

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He only slapped the tax on those flooding the market from China, correct? What's that? You can only afford solar panels if they are below the cost to actually build? I doubt you would think that a good enough reason to warrant buying fenced/stolen solar panels, so it shouldn't be a good enough excuse for demanding panels at predatory prices used to drive competition out of business either.

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"....2) I go to place my expensive solar panels on my roof, but can't get a permit because my structure isn't built to hold the weight...."

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Wait. This Obama character is responsible for your local building code which has the audacity to require your roof have some chance of not collapsing? I had no idea he was responsible, but your argument is beginning to persuade me that he is a dastardly devious fellow.

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'....3) I decide to put my expensive solar panels in my 1 acre yard, but I can't because I am already maxed out on my allowable impermeable land surface.....'

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You know, your solar panels will probably perform better if they are angled south with a little space between so as not to shade one another. Also, a little off the ground will allow the solar panels to stay clean longer between cleanings. Why would the ground need to be impermeable? Is this also the meddling of this Obama villain?

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"....4) I decide to buy one of Fredski's "personalized" swimming pool hydrogen generators, but I can't, because Lockheed just bought it all up....."

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Were you able to buy the hydrogen generators prior to the buy-up? What business model do you imagine Lockheed is pursuing that allows profit by investing in new technology and then never having any sales?

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"....5) I decide to build my own hydrogen generator, but I can't, because hydrogen is explosive, and I'm already on Obama's DHS watch list because I've mentioned the constitution too many times...."

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Wow Obama really hates you. Perhaps someone should let them in on the fact that a hydrogen bomb requires different forms of hydrogen and is a bit more complex than can be concocted in the typical back yard. Have any hydrogen oxygen combustion weapons been used in war or terrorist attacks? I guess that's not a fair question, no nail clippers have been used to hijack airline flights either.

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"....6) I decide to install my own windmill, but I can't because I'm back to going over my allowable impermeable land surface, plus there's probably a noise ordinance...."

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Impermeable land surface again, really? What is the footprint of a windmill you are considering? You offered to post relevant codes if it was desired. I'd like to take you up on that offer. While you are at it, maybe you can resolve the 'probably' in regards to a wind turbine violating your local noise ordinance.

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Here's 128 pages. Have fun. I've already been told that I can't build a small laundry/ mudroom off my kitchen. A windmill will do me no good, and solar panels will put me over my allowable limit.

This will only get worse if the US waters crap is instituted...then, because puddles sometimes form on my property, the EPA will have full jurisdictional authority over my land and how I use it.

http://conservationsuccess.wikispaces.com/file/view/Wake+County+DRAFT_STORMWATER_MANUAL.pdf

Sure is a lot of money and work to help save a planet that is careening toward certain death:

https://solarpermit.org/jurisdiction/wake-county-nc/

This is interesting. The bottom of the page.

Copyright © 2013 Clean Power Finance, Inc. based in part upon work supported by U.S. Department of Energy under Assistance Agreement No. DE-EE0005349. Permission granted only for personal or educational use, or for use by or on behalf of the U.S government. Clean Power Finance, Inc prohibits the unauthorized display, reproduction, sale, and/or distribution of all or portions of the content of the National Solar Permitting Database(NSPD) without prior written consent.

Lets have a look at Green Power Finance...

If we run through the associated names:

http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/private/board.asp?privcapId=60453548

We find some interesting characters. Recipients of billions in stimulus dollars in fact. Hmm.

http://greencorruption.blogspot.com/2013/01/obama-cronies-john-doerr-and-al-gore-of.html#.VCs7qBbKTjY

Wow! Google, Att..........what a surprise!

A quick review of the pages you linked suggests that solar panels could be easily installed in your backyard without running afoul of those guidelines. Simply don't put a new roof, paving, sidewalk, or other impermeable material under the panels. There are many different options for mounting solar panels on poles of other structures that don't have to be impermeable to rain.

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I admire your enthusiasm, but I have to tell you, if this is the best you have to back up your 'the sky is falling' prediction, it is beginning to look like a counter indicator. It is hard not to feel optimistic realizing the foundation you have constructed your doom and gloom is so lacking.

Sadly, you still don't bother to even browse links.

The definition of "impermeable" is any surface that water runs off from. That includes my compacted gravel driveway.

Now, if solar panels cover any area of my yard, and water doesn't run through them, they would be considered an impermeable surface in my locality.

This guy has a few suggestions on how the utilities can maintain their monopoly over us.

It would include backyard power generation, but we wouldn't be allowed to own any of the equipment.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2014/09/a-trillion-dollar-taxpayer-bailout-of-electrical-utilities-2030-outlook

Kramarat Have you thought about setting a post system next to your home and setting the panels on a racking system over your roof not on the roof.

There are ways that I could do it, including putting in an expensive water capture system.

They would likely catch a lot of flak if they made it impossible to install a home system. The next best thing is to make it so expensive that most people won't bother, which is what they have achieved.

I'd have to cut down some 100+ year old oak trees to make my roof area feasible, and I'm not willing to do that either.

We don't use a lot of electricity, I'd just really like the feeling of being truly independent.

Do you have a fence around the back yard. My panels are mounted along the top of my backyard fence at about a 45' degree angle. It is a compromise from summer to winter angles. And the county could not say a thing as it does not block the surface of the yard from permeability of surface water. As the fence is 12 feet high in that area because of a railroad track it cuts down on the noise a lot. I have lived around train tracks so long I don't even notice them any more. Well got to go to work, I will check back later and see if my mail box is full again from this discussion.

It's really not worth it for me. I live on unincorporated land that, since I moved here, has become a watershed area for a lake behind me that is now used for drinking water for the city of Raleigh, so I'm pretty restricted on what I can do.

I would have loved to have gotten my hands on one of Nocera's little units.

Now that the AC is off, my electric bill will be about $60 a month for three of us, and I heat with wood.

I'm off to work too.

Kramarat, I did actually browse the 100+ page document you posted. Alas you attempt to dissuade by referencing something that apparently dissuaded you, did not work.

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Others seem to have no problem grasping the concept that elevated solar panels angled south offers both improved performance, less maintenance, and effectively no barrier to rain permeating into the soil below.

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I can't find anywhere in the document your linked that would lead me to believe that the impermeability of a support pole for a solar panel truly removes it as an option. But if I have missed it, please tell me what page. If that is the case, then you must also not be able to install a split rail fence, a laundry line, or a basketball goal post. What about planting a tree? Surely rain does not permeate down through trees but runs off the surface before soaking into the ground surrounding the tree.

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Perhaps North Carolina is more of a Nazi state than I realized....but I doubt it. It seems like you have convinced yourself that you are being restricted far more than you probably are. Perhaps in trying to prove me wrong, you will free yourself from your self imposed prison.

As I mentioned, I am in a watershed area that slopes into a creek that feeds Raleigh's water supply. Perhaps if I placed solar panels perfectly vertical you would be right, but that's not how they are installed.

I also mentioned that the cost of electrical permits, fire inspections, land use, etc., would exceed the amount of money that would make it worth it for me.

Our planet is dying from global warming. The moron we call a president just mentioned it in front of the UN the other day. All taxes and restrictions should be eliminated at once, before it's too late to turn back the clock!

In addition, the hydrogen generator mentioned in the OP should be made immediately available to the public, tax free, and with a government subsidy toward the purchase price, before it's too late and we are all dead.

Stone walls do not a prison make,

Nor iron bars a cage;

Minds innocent and quiet take

That for an hermitage;

If I have freedom in my love,

And in my soul am free,

Angels alone that soar above

Enjoy such liberty.

Richard Lovelace

Totally, totally brilliant and really true.

All points addressed.

Very well put!

GA

I am afraid that is your perception. And having lived all over Africa for 38 years and worked with these people, I might know something you don't. You did it to the Indian population with small pox! Was that baloney too! Was it baloney when the Brits did the same thing to the aborigines in Au? Did I miss something or touch a nerve? As stated, neither of us here will ever know the truth for sure. But you have another side to consider from someone who lived there and still has family there.

my nerves are fine, thank you.the US is far from perfect but to accuse America of causing or spreading AIDS as an intentional malicious act is delusional as well as irresponsible on your part. I'll stick to the hydrogen aspect of the thread

HIV/AIDs came OUT of Africa if I remember correctly, I found a good website (I think it is!) that appears to be well informed:-

http://www.avert.org/origin-hiv-aids.htm

US homosexuals appear to have "helped" so to say......I do believe though that nobody knows 100% for certain.....

"Helped" is probably not a good word to use there, especially when writing a response to someone whose threshold for believability requires only hearing others suggest something that can't be known with certainty not to be true.

"Helped" would imply witting willing assistance, which was almost certainly not the case. In the 1980's it is speculated that Gay airline attendants, from all over the world, not just the US, were infected and infected others, but it wasn't something done knowingly.

Transfusions and transplant recipients and donors represent another common path for the spread, but this was also not purposeful, so I wouldn't say they 'helped' either.

IV drug users were another major path, but my guess is they weren't looking for HIV when they injected.

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Sorry, Andy, what you wrote is actually completely reasonable and one of the common ways the verb 'helped' is used... I am just not filled with confidence, given some of the discussion already, that you comment has a decent chance of being interpreted with a similar amount of reason.

'.......Just a little more info which may or may not support K's theory. It was made clear by many Africa leaders that they did not want the USA.....' Has one single person read the words above? It was not stated by myself, but merely the information passed on as to what many believe. JF, typical engineers who think that what was stated was what they think they read, when in fact, what was read, was not what was stated. 'May or may not'...'made clear by many African leaders'...... Which words were not clear?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but it does seem strange that we magically produced a serum that cured the white missionaries, but now we are fresh out.

It's just another odd coincidence that the president shot down any possibility of sending the cure over. Perfectly normal response.

Come on! Listen to yourself. Surely you can see the absurdity of claiming that Obama is masterminding an operation to spread a disease meant to exterminate black people.

What makes you think he harbors such hate for a group that, not only is he a part, but also his wife and children?

Are you a racist or an Islamophobe?

Lets review what we know:

1) Obama tells young Africans that the planet will boil over if they are allowed to have nice stuff like us, by conventional means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBE0RKbRbl4

2) As per Fredsky's OP, an alternative means to bring Africa into a 21st century hydrogen based system becomes a reality.

3) The hydrogen system described by Nocera is purchased lock, stock and barrel by the US military industrial complex, eliminating the possibility of Africa, or anyone else, from seeing it come to fruition.

4) All indications are that Lockheed bought the technology for the flow battery idea, which it intends to use to keep drones aloft.

5) The US is no longer using combat personnel to fight the war against Islamic radicals, but relying on air strikes alone.

6) Radical Islam is sweeping across Northern Africa.

7) A sudden outbreak of Ebola, (which the US has a patent on), is sweeping across Northwestern Africa, and is reaching epidemic proportions.

I'll be happy to debate any of these points that you think is a lie.

some people just get off on being provocative

At least thought provoking.

My entire problem lies with the fact that I believed Nocera.

It was only solidified by the fact that every aspect of his technology is now owned by Lockheed Martin, which, for all practical purposes, is a wholly owned subsidary of the US government.

The notion that whatever they are, or are not, working on in regard to their aquisititions of technology because they are publicly traded, is about the stupidest nonsense that I've ever heard.

I have been unable to find proof that Farrakhan is lying or mistaken. Perhaps tinac can enlighten us with his evidence to the contrary....because truth is not a compromise.

Lets see the facts.

"....I have been unable to find proof that Farrakhan is lying or mistaken. Perhaps tinac can enlighten us with his evidence to the contrary....because truth is not a compromise.

Lets see the facts...."

This argument formula that IQ and you, Kramarat, return to again and again can be described as an assertion that:

'Whatever has not been proven false, must be true, or conversely whatever has not been proven true must be false.'

The Latin name for this argument is 'argumentum ad ignorantiam' It is also known as an appeal to ignorance or an argument from ignorance. It is one of the more well known logical falacies.

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An interesting thing to note is that this fallacy has been studied for so long, that people who fall into this fallacious method of reasoning act somewhat predictably. For example, very often people using this type of argument will attempt to use their fallacy to justify a shift in the burden of proof, such that they are free to make whatever fanciful claims they like and it is up to others to disprove.

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That seems to be exactly what you did.

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I' have no intention of run around trying to verify or validate your odd and sundry paranoid fantasies, but if that were not the case, tell me Kramarat, what kind of proof would I be looking for? What exactly would you find sufficiently compelling proof that would allow you to accept the US did not commit the outrages you suggest?

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While I can imagine types of evidence that would suggest guilt in this situation, trying to come up with what kind of evidence would establish innocence has me stumped.

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So please share with me what this evidence would consist of. You say you have not been able to find this proof the US was not guilty of these accusations, which implies you were looking. So what exactly were you looking for, Kramarat?

The correct word is 'Conspiracy" that you seek..

Is it so impossible in this day and age of so called transparency, that you cannot accept that people have differing opinions, beliefs and understandings of the world today?

No one would admit to any atrocities, certainly not publicly and if the USA grew some and did admit to possibly doing this, what would be the consequences, world wide? Can you even imagine that? Imagine if any government admitted to what they have done in the past or to gain control of another.

Any person, government, organisation, religious group anywhere in the world is looking for a 'get-ahead' at almost any cost. The current crisis is a good example. And shame on the world for 2 silly religeons fighting about the same belief, trying to conquer another.

And involving so many innocent people who just want to have a life.

No one knows for 100% certainty what goes on. not even you sir. Therefore you simply cannot rule out everyone's idea, opinion, based on what you believe. We are all possibly human, lead by the nose, dictated to by corporations, denied a better, cleaner world, by corporate greed or unnecessary redundant and some time draconian laws. So no point attacking K or myself. Open for answers, debate and convincing we are 100% wrong. Is this a sin?

The question to ask is what is being made available to Jo Public, at a reasonable price to allow Jo Public the God given right to help keep the planet a little cleaner?

And if we did not have opinions, we could never have these debates and see a different point of view. Even the Greeks knew that. They called them forums!

Forum: a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

I am not attacking Kramarat or you. I am chiding both of you for basing your evaluation of information on a process known to be faulty. I am also expressing my revulsion at the willingness with which the two of you, disseminate and attempt to justify outrageous accusations completely devoid of anything establishing there might be some truth to it.

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Here is the thing... I like having Kramarat's participation in this forum. We certainly disagree on many things and have been in more than a few acerbic exchanges. But I have read enough of what he writes to know with a high degree of certainty that Kramarat has a good heart. He displays a seemingly irrepressible desire to right important wrongs. I think he sometimes gets hoodwinked, as we all do in varying degrees, into believing in a wrong that probably isn't factually correct, and there can be harm from spreading some of those things, but I don't think he is ever being willfully malicious....i.e. if he is championing something it is something he believes.

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So understand that my words are not an attack to drive Kramarat away... his absences are noticeable and detract. While I don't know you as well, as long as you see my comments to you and to Kramarat as similar enough to lump together in one classification, then you can be assured that there is not attack.

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That said, you owe it to yourself quit logical fallacies, cold turkey. Reviewing wikipedia articles on logical fallacies might be worthwhile, so that you know what to look for.

"Time to face the real demons.

The ones in the mirror.

Some of us look into the mirror and see a window, and everything bad lives on the other side"

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You haven't, by chance, been recently reading the work of a German philospher, have you? Reminds me of some lines:

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'...Man is very well defended against himself, against being reconnoitred and besieged by himself, he is usually able to perceive of himself only his outer walls. The actual fortress is inaccessible, even invisible to him, unless his friends and enemies play the traitor and conduct him in by a secret path...."

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and

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'...Whoever despises himself still respects himself as one who despises....' - Nietzsche

I take my hat off to you, a reader of Nietzsche. Not easy going reading!

I read about 50% of one of his books and it simply got too deep for me. I was reading in German, but that should not have made any difference really, and I would not claim it did either....

The one negative side (if I remember correctly!) Hitler was also a fan, or he made it look like he was!!!

Some call him the "Uncle or God Father" of National Socialism.....though he died in 1900 at age 56.

People are complex.

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Some people have excellent ideas, but I doubt any of them have exclusively excellent ideas.

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Also, it is not uncommon for the very worst sorts of personalities to have an appreciation for genuinely great things.

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I can't fault Nietzsche, for Nazis becoming fond of his work. I also cannot find fault with Nietzsche for posthumous attempts to suggest he supported Nazi ideals.

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While I suspect he has a lot of less savory aspects, there seems to be good evidence that he was strongly opposed to some of the more salient aspects of the Nazi party. Specifically anti-Semitism nationalism and patriotism. His writings are very clear on these subjects but it is apparent that he lived what he wrote, since he distanced himself from his once close sister and husband, and eventually opted to disown her because of their anti-Semitic views.

You are probably the "best read" CR4 member on Nietzsche and I thank you kindly for the interesting points you have posted.

Although I usually "plug on" even with boring books (I can simply never believe that its just boring!), I had little or no mental "contact" with him.....and I simply stopped reading, maybe a bad decision on my part?

What do you think? Should I pick it up again? Are there valid reasons to do so?

There is no need to be disappointed in how/the rate which, you have been reading Nietzsche, you are reading it in the best way, a little at a time. There is so much being conveyed that is not simply another variation on retelling widely accepted 'realities'. This may be a case where the whole is not more than the sum of the parts. So since it has been a while, perhaps read a little from anywhere. When you get to the point you begin to feel like you are 'plugging along'... or actually just a little before it becomes a chore, put it down and perhaps read a short section again in a few days.

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There are writers who have talent for writing collections of epic novels. Other writers are better at novels not quite as thick. Still others specialize in short stories. And then there are poets and perhaps something we could call 'one-lineurs'. Nietzsche's writing sweet spot is rarely more than a few sentences.

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I'm no expert on Nietzsche, but I find his ideas far better than his books. He seems optimized to creating aphorisms, and most of what I've read, reads like a collection of aphorisms with accompanying critique. Aphorisms by their nature, stand alone,and convey a huge amount in very few words, so limiting reading to short sections make sense.

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Being unimpressed and even dissuaded by his lack of book composing prowess seems to be a common reaction. I've heard more than once, attempts to attribute this as a distinct trait of German-as-their-first-language authors, which suggests to me, Nietzsche must be the only German author they have read. Herman Hess, and Kafka write in distinctly German styles, and they are masters at engaging the reader.

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It seems even Friedrich himself is of the opinion that he writes and a particularly information dense style:

"...It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what everyone else says in a whole book - what everyone else does not say in a whole book...." - Nietzsche

Many thanks for your inspiring comments, I may, because of you, pick that book up again (assuming that I can find it!!)

As usual, I am way outnumbered in pure brain power.

Here I thought we were talking about hydrogen energy and flow batteries.

Who's Nietzche.....and why should I care?

When am I going to learn?

The moment you said that solar panels aren't impervious surfaces, and stand like flat screen TVs, was time for me to say goodbye.

Damned beer! Take care brother. You got me again dammit. Pretty good for a guy that has no understanding of the subject matter.

Send me a pic of your solar panel that has the impervious surface of a clothesline.

I'll be arguing with my 7 year old while I'm waiting.