Oceans of Energy

Don't start an ocean fire, the fish will all fry.

Very interesting pothesis:

But given that we do not see Oceans fires created by the millions of lightning strikes to the seawater on the planet that happen every day. I think something is missing to make this a hypothesis...

Try dabbling in the Laws of Thermodynamics. Such a scheme falls outside those laws, and therefore is a non-starter in this universe. Don't invest in anything to do with it!

You say that you've dabbled in quantum mechanics and nuclear equations. I seriously doubt that. However, I am willing to see if you possess any real quantum mechanic knowledge or if you are just trying to baffle.

• How does quantum mechanics tie into the molecular shape of H2O?

I ask this for two reasons. First, to understand the answer to the question you asked requires at least a fundamental understanding of the forces involved to make this molecular bond. Second, I am calling your bluff.

Sounds like the long drawn out version of HHO.

Split water to burn to run some sort of generator system that uses the hydrogen and oxygen combustion process to produce more electricity to split more water to burn in the generator and so on.

Kinda sort a works a little but gets damn complicated and expensive and fast and never works no where near the levels of all the hopes as dreams too many fools would like or care to conspiracy theorize about..

Why do you think you need less energy to pull hydrogen and oxygen apart than you get back when they recombine?

Sorry, no free lunch today.

There was never an addition or a subtraction of energy . I have not ignited the gasses, there is no combustion release energy , this is a model , and as such , the construction of a single molecule of water , no addition , no subtraction , just splitting apart , is definable , there is an answer deep within the energy required , vs the energy produced during combustion. What I'm proposing is simply a hypothesis , that the resultant finite energy measured could be greater after the molecular split than it was prior. This is , in fact , rocket science , and no one mentioned a free ride .

Physics would suggest that , outside of 'the box ' which contains a single molecule of liquid water , a pressure tank filled with only hydrogen , added onto one filled with only pure compressed oxygen , would make for a great rocket engine , hey , like the ones on the Space Program's Launch Vehicle. Laws of Thermodynamics seem to be in my favour .

Neither of these statements, made by you in your disjointed, run-on sentence filled, poorly written and punctuated statement are true.

"I'm going to change that point of view"
"clean fresh H 2 0 is , by itself , and electrical insulator"

Good lick with this little fantasy.

You are correct that the sentence structure is horrible. However, pure water is a reasonably good insulator. The trouble is that it doesn't take much ionic impurity to change the insulating quality.

Neither is this one:- "Hydrogen and Oxygen . Both very flammable"

In fact, Oxygen is not at all flammable, it simply aids combustion, often violently, but by itself it won't burn.

Hair splitting?

By itself, nothing will burn. It takes three things. Fuel, air and fire.

Explore LEL and UEL.

Hydrogen / Oxygen

( Fuel , Air , without the 80 % Nitrogen )

Yes ?

CHALLENGER I Main Tank.

One Part Oxygen

Two Parts Oxygen

Won't Burn , OK.

Hey Lyn - have you ever tried to use a conductive type level sensor or a mag flow meter in DI or RO Pharmaceutical water? Guess what happens? Nothing, nada, nil - no conductivity = insulator.

You are free to misinterpret "clean, fresh" water as "DI" or "RO pharmaceutical" water if you choose.

The OP mentioned neither "DI" nor "RO pharmaceutical" water in their rambling statement.

A couple of points when you electrolyze sea water you get Hydrogen, Chlorine and Caustic Soda. Seems as if you forgot 10th grade Chemistry. The H₂ and Cl₂ are explosive, just as are 2H₂ and O₂, the result Hydrochloric Acid and Caustic soda are each quite dangerous. In diluted form, HCl has several other names making it seem less dangerous, Lydocaine and Xylocaine among others

JW I am shocked, just plain shocked. You are referring to local anesthetics Lidocaine hydrochloride, and Xylocaine hydrochloride. These are nothing but salts of the free base pharmaceutical items with hydrochloric acid, nothing new to see there, walk away.

As to the mixture of H2 and Cl2 - that mixture is quite safe until a few UV photons arrive on the scene. Switch on a fluorescent tube in a darkened room with the outer balloon having chlorine and the inner balloon having hydrogen and BOOM! Instant pop, all the Chem 101 students scream, mission accomplished.

I suppose if one had a ginormous nuclear reactor (or a Van de Graff machine) producing enough potential to break down pure water to atoms, or ions (even better), then there could be better than a chemical rocket, as the ions would be possibly accelerated by another static potential to wildly high velocities, but with nowhere near the typical thrust of chemical rockets. Plasma/Ion drives do work! The question is what makes the best propellant? Lots of low mass ions, or less high mass ions? Can anyone smell a differential equation coming on?

Furthermore, the whole entire plasma creation thing can be done with a reasonably modest laser running off a battery. Google this: LIBS. It is Laser-Induced Breakdown Spectroscopy, and it has nothing to do with cold-fusion, flux capacitors, or anything like that. But it will tell you what is in your morning coffee, and a lot of other things.

And, BTW, no Kulas, it does not stand for Lizzard Irritating Breakdance Show.

Point 1 - There is no Chlorine in Seawater .

Point 2 - There is no Caustic Soda in Seawater .

Point 3 - There is no Hydrochloric Acid in Seawater.

Campfire Girls usually don't immerse for over seven days at a time .

Nonsense.

Last I heard, seawater is salty.

I think you had one too many jolts of electricity already.

Thats what I truly think.

If you don't watch it you make the news pretty soon.

Not saying to not have fun but stay save!

Be illuminated by the free valence shell or electrons from the reactants. It usually dictates the property of the by product.

Hydrogen is in group 1 and Oxygen is in group 6. These electrons corresponds to their outermost orbitals in which they either give up or share from one to another depending on the difference of their electronegativity which shows the type of bonding they have with one another.

electronegativity difference<0.4 - covalent, 0.4< polar covalent <2.0, ionic is greater than 2.0 difference.

Oxygen has electronegativity of 3.2, Hydrogen has 2.2, makes the difference of 1 which is half way to become ionic or to borrow an electron from another.

From their corresponding groups (1 & 6) we see that Hydrogen needs only 1 electron from Oxygen to satisfy their bonding, remaining 5 free valence electrons for the compound (water) to interact to any elements or compound it might come to contact with.

From that 5 free valence electrons of water, I could tell that water is a good conductor of electricity as well as heat because of the free electrons which could easily been kinetically agitated and pushed by an electric charge.

Also bonding of Oxygen and Hydrogen is weak because only 1 electron find its pair with the other. From that I could tell, H and O is easily separable by electrolysis or chemical reaction.

Adding NaCl to Water forms a solution. NaCl in nature is ionic. Na belong to group 1 with electronegativity of 0.93(atomic#11) and Cl(atomic#17) is in group 7 and with 3.16. Both is at energy configuration of level 3. Free electron of Na will occupy the vacant orbital of Cl since it is more electronegative.

Electronegativity difference of Na and Cl is >2.0 therefore bonding between the two is pretty tight and strong but there are 6 free electrons compared to 5 in water. Therefore, NaCl is a good conductor of electricity and heat much better than pure water.

Water and salt do not mixed as a compound with each other, therefore if you heat up the solution, water will vaporize first leaving the salt behind or applied emf on it, water will disintegrate first since covalently bonded, than the ionic NaCl-salt.

Basic chemistry will tell you, every substance has unique property, except if they combine and form compounds, where in you could expect another unique new property unlike the reactants.

What is a compound and what is a solution?--Are they different? Answer this first as your homework before you may scrutinize the interest in your mind.

"From that 5 free valence electrons of water, I could tell that water is a good conductor of electricity....."

Pure H2O is a poor conductor of electricity. You have to add ions to pass any significant amount of current through it. Running a current through a solution of NaCl and H2O will also cause the Na and Cl to separate.

We used a base (KOH) in pure water as the electrolyte to make the oxygen through electrolysis where I once worked.

Norm3

Relativity is, depending on what's your basis is, if you compare water with copper what you said made sense.

Cu with atomic number of 29 (29-electrons, 29 protons, 29 neutrons), on group 11 means outermost orbitals carries 11 electrons farthest from the nucleus(where the opposite attracting protons are located) valence electros are easy to get excited and pushed aside--so therefore a good conductor of electricity and heat, isn't it? What is the 5 free electrons of water compares with 11 free electrons of cooper, then.

It does not change the fact that water is a conductor, you may say its poor or not, a conductor is a conductor, none the less, we don't use water for cooling.

A good thermal conductor is a good conductor of electricity--it always goes like this in material science. A poor conductor of electricity is a good insulator of heat.

You may recall that most metals are good conductor of electricity, why? --'because they've got valence electron hanging out in clouds, ready to be agitated when temperature rises and so as if applied with an emf.

If you insist that water is insulator, why not conduct an expirement put water on a bucket, full. Then get a 440 V just one line, dip it with your hands wet. Take a picture or a video, then get back to us in the forum for update on what happens. Is it true or is it not, that water is an insulator. Good luck

The question is, is it an insulator or a conductor? Answer? Then I'll throw the books-the works of many academic and technical guys out there

Objection! There is no mention of temperature.

I used to work in a power plant. The conductivity of the output water from our demineralizer was monitored and recorded and often reached 0.01 MHO (now called micro seamen/cm). Usually about 0.02.

By dipping your hand into the water it quickly no longer becomes distilled.

If you will not believe my words then look at this demonstration from MIT.

Agreed.....

Pure water, when left alone, absorbs CO2 and becomes relatively more conductive in the process.

Does conduction means only litting the bulb to you? Cheng Weng or Weng Cheng what ever her name is but she's cute conducted the experiment on a 3 volt dc battery, before the tungsten filaments electrons could release photons it will need enough agitation or threshold from the emf, but it does not mean there are no charges crossing the filament. By the way the chick is a bs mechanical engineer. I admit the i made a wrong adjective "good" rather than "poor" conductor, backing it up with SiO2, the compound has 2 valence electrons which is almost half of 5 of water. Silicon oxide is a ceramic material like other oxides, a good resistor material so as insulation and refractory materials too.

Objection! There is no mention of temperature.

Ahem, did you read my second paragraph.

Not any numbers. Conductivity is strongly influenced by temperature.

Additional incorrect moronic drivel, stacked on top of the other pure nonsense you have been spouting. Did you get your degree from a box of Captain Crunch? Please tell us you are not actually working any place important.

Kulas, pretty sure has his good times with you guys. Seems like deliberate to me.

Look Kulas: Inviting folks to perform self-electrocution will not gain you many popularity points around here.

One of the first rules any engineer should learn: If you cannot do this safely, then you have a bad design, don't do it that way.

Second rule: Engineer your project thusly that no harm may befall others as a result of your ignorance, mistakes, or piss-poor-planning, or for any other foreseeable reason that risk management will not find very funny. IN fact risk management typically has no sense of humor at all when it comes to workplace or public safety.

Third rule: Just because you have a certificate does not make you an engineer. You actually have to know how to apply your tradecraft.

Nope, you see that red guy, wants the readers to believe pure water is an insulator.

It's a actually misnomer, some silly dude might trust the red guy who is from the electric world and conduct a experiment for water as an insulator, end up in a bucket and 440V challenge.

If you like, do an experiment also, let us see if the red guy is right, sounds dumb to me.

I gave you a link to a safe demonstration experiment using pure water already.

OMG, ROFLMFAO!!!! A _little knowledge is truly a dangerous thing, and what he have here is a dearth. Since you are mathematically challenged, I will not even undertake to show you that you cannot count. I have decided instead to make a project of you.

Please provide some contextual reference to Tornado's comment about me?

Huh? Where have I said such a thing about him?

I thought James were always here. LOL, he seem to miss some though.

No it takes exactly as much as you get by recombining it. However you can NOT convert it back to the same kind of energy (electricity) as you used to separate unless you have (impossible) 100% efficient perfect machines to convert from one form (heat) to another(electricity).

"it's a dead heat race."

Heh, good one, since 'heat' (molecular energy) is the fundamental 'energy currency' of Physics.

"Finally, while thermodynamics tells us that you can never get more out of a process than you put (like perpetual motion). There are some exceptions."

Well, those 'exceptions' are cases where someone or something put the 'extra' energy into the process beforehand. Exothermic processes will require Endothermic ones to 'set things up. The 'iron/salt' hand warmers so popular with the skiing crowd require dry salt (which had to absorb heat to expel the water and crystalise, therefore storing energy in the chemical bonds) and un-oxidised iron (which requires energy to smelt rusted iron and iron ore into 'usable' iron), so when moisture is added, the salt oxidizes the iron, releasing the previously stored energy. Even nuclear fission required an Endothermic setup: a star had to expend SO MUCH energy to crush lighter elements together to make the radioactive ones that the star litterally burst apart from the effort.

My tongue-in-cheek remark was that investing in communication skills can return more than the initial investment, thus cheating the laws of thermodynamics - so to speak. ;-)

Ah yes, those exceptions.

"The law of Conservation of Pain: Joy and Sorrow can be neither created or destroyed, but one can be converted into the other."

"Shared joy in increased, shared pain is lessened. Thus we refute Entropy."

- Michael "Mick" Callahan, as dictated to Spider Robinson

Something none of us has actually considered:

(1) A high potential arc/spark carries well more than the energy required to totally ionize the water, break it up into atoms/ions, as plasma. At that point there may be a large current flowing in the local Brillouin zone of the water just below the arc/spark. Now, I for one might have a hard time seeing liquid water as a First Brillouin Zone, but nevermind. This takes place within a small fraction of a second. During this time, one might consider the water as a pseudo-lattice, capable of being excited into compression/rarefaction waves by phonons incident from the arc/spark shock wave (as in a Q wave experiment in a conducting foil).

(2) Under those conditions, strange things are apparently able to take place, such as electron capture by protons, combination of protons and neutrons to make deuterons, formation of dineutrons, tritium production, and even quadrium (⁴H) ground state (there is a known excited state of this that is unbound found in colliders), and quadrium undergoes natural β- decay to Helium or Helium nucleus (alpha). In this sense, one could possibly get the nuclear energy that is available out of the system, but no one has ever really truly explored this "strange possibility".

(3) I don't really believe this works on water liquid or ice, even if the molecules are semi-bound or time constrained in a strict Brillouin lattice. Besides, there is nothing to tightly constrain protons in a Brillouin lattice here, and allow for their Q-M tunneling in and out of position. Heisenberg demands that as the protons are constrained to smaller and smaller dx, then dp must become larger, and so larger energies are available to the protons in a First Brillouin Zone.

(4) One really does not normally speak of phonons in water, but to be sure, sound and ultrasound is common in water, so why not even higher frequencies? If lightening were sufficient to cause nuclear fusion in water (for a brief instant in a localized hot spot (or cold spot, rather since the formed neutrons would be near zero translational energy), then would the ocean not contain way higher tritium/deuterium than they now do?

If I were on earth (with an atmosphere of significant oxygen) and had a bottle of propane I could cause it to burn. If I were on Saturn (which has an atmosphere of significant methane) and had a bottle of oxygen I could cause a similar fire. Unless you define (as most normal people from earth would) burning as oxidizing. I think the oxygen on Saturn would look very similar to the propane on earth.

unsubscribes

The old union plumbers patch and moto was/is "plumbers protect the health of the nation". They deal with water every day, and job # 1 is to make sure drinking water and sewer water dont 't mix.....water is the essence of life, you can't make it or destroy it. The "water" cycle, evaporation, rain, is climate , and it forever changes. Heating water causes evaporation but it remains H2O. Separating molecules at a quantum level....well I'll leave that up to God.....when humans do it, Pandora box has been opened. As far as the ocean goes... And it does.....if it swells, RIDE it.