Whadda Ya Mean Set the Clocks Up an Hour?

When daylight comes earlier in the morning, there is a possible advantage to adjusting one's schedule to get work and school done earlier, leaving extra daylight in the evening for recreation.

One way to have alternating schedules is to print up two versions. $$$. Another way is to reset clocks. $.

Poor comparison. All the more reason moving the clock forward in the summer is a waste. As you say, "Daylight actually <already> does get longer in the summer".

You want to save daylight? Adjust the clocks in the winter when there is a shortage of daylight.

For what it's worth, a comparison of energy usage in New Mexico that observes DST and Arizona, that does not.

Taking the numbers for 2009, the net energy usage for Arizona was (5160/3180) x (5.5/15.7) = 0.568, or about 57 percent of the total household per capita energy usage compared to New Mexico.

Thus, a state that does not observe DST uses less energy per year than a similar state that observes DST.

YES, I realize this is inexact; nevertheless it's potentially significant.

Can ANYONE here post some verified facts about DST being good or bad????

Everything I have seen up to now are basically inexact opinions, both for and against!!!

A perfect link Zvi, it made complete sense, so as Judge Judy says, "It's probably true!" But to anyone else, you need to read it ALL to get the most useful information....

It actually fitted in with some comments I made very early on here when I said that below a certain parallel, it simply wasn't worth doing as the light differences between summer and winter hardly make it worthwhile, its the far(ther) Northern and Southern countries that benefit most from DST.

I wasn't actually thinking about Air Conditioning, but thats partly the secret of extra energy usage late in the day with DST.

Also that due to the extra free time with it not being dark, many people get in their car and go somewhere (I go fishing!), burning extra energy....

We in Europe and Scandinavia have rarely AC at home, I actually do, but since we fully insulated our house in 2008, we have never even switched it on again. Not even once!!

So if we don't drive somewhere, and we don't have AC, there would be a saving in Energy......!!! BINGO!!!

Its only in certain countries/areas that DST will actually use more energy!!!! The US being probably the primary area. The rest of the world could probably save energy!!

Without your excellent link Zvi, I would not have accounted for the differences, I felt that there must be a saving, but I could not put my finger on it.....many, many thanks!

I loved the point that Golf companies and Barbecue companies LOVE the extra light as it improves their bottom line too.....

What about Motor Bikers, Bikers (don't forget Electric Bikes!) and many other hobbies that can fill in those extra daylight hours and increase sales as well as using some energy.....

Private pilots with their own aircraft, a short summer evening flight? Even gliders need to be towed up. Hot air balloonists, use a lot of energy!!!

Even flying model aircraft uses energy....one way or another!! As well as the car to get to the flying field.....

I could make an even longer list of extra energy usage due to DST, but wouldn't it be really sad if we didn't use that extra light in doing something we enjoy.

Not having DST may, in some countries at least, actually reduce total energy usage, but surely thats the price we gladly pay for having fun in our free time?

Do not forget that some studies, in spite of our "hobbies" usage of energy, still show a net 1% saving of energy with DST.

But I prefer to feel (rightly or wrongly!) that it roughly balances out as being no net energy gains or losses, but a huge gain in quality of life!!!

I agree the link is excellent, as is common for the National Geographic!

It really is interesting how our own particular circumstances affect our views.

Probably the main factor that made me buy this house 45 years ago was the fact that it had air conditioning, and I use it a lot in the summer. That original Carrier A/C was installed in 1967, and still runs fine. I've spent about $200 to maintain it over those 45 years. I keep hearing that the newer A/Cs are more efficient, but my electric bills seem to dispute that.

I'm still enjoying my work, and I don't have fixed hours, so I don't pay much attention to the hours. My 'recreation' usually is gardening or keeping the dead wood removed from our little forest. I tend to work outside in the evenings when it is cooler, so the biggest effect I have from DST is the wife complaining that I don't come in for dinner soon enough...

Nope. Latest figures I found puts them almost exactly the same. Both in the $35,000.00 USD range.

Just for you, Andy:

Per Capita Personal Income U.S. and All States

It never ceases to amaze me what people do with statistics to support their positions. These charts have no relevance whatsoever to the DST debate. They contrast electricity usage per person in different states, with different weather patterns, economies, geographic location relevant to time zone borders, elevations, government spending, municipal services provided, electricity rates, population densities, urban infrastructures, rural prevalence, total populations, utility structures, proximity to production facilities, utility policy, etc etc.

Average use per person is radically different across the globe. Attributing this to DST is just downright ignorant.

GA

Pure common sense.

Ignorant? I think not.

About the only one of your statements that is not unfounded and not verified is that they are different states.

Weather patterns are not radically different.

Economies? How so? As Andy would say, prove it.

Geographic locations? Really? Same time zone.

Elevations? OK, I'll give you that one. 4100 vs 5700.

Government spending? That can mean a million different things.

This makes me weary.

You are just blowing smoke with nothing to substantiate your claims.

Even Andy SHOULD call you out on this baseless tirade.

Would you care to add some relevance to the debate? So far, I see none.

Lyn did NOT understand your post, sadly!!!

I have seen his reply.

Except in those countries lying at or close the Equator ;-)

Then , maybe, do it on your own time, and make Your adjustments while we keep ours? Just a question….Or suggestion...

I am not particularly promoting Daylight Saving Time, but I am promoting awareness of the rationale(s) for it, which could then be debated. But the OP's question was a typical Noudge question. IIRC, Arizona doesn't do DST, anyway, along with Hawaii and five southern Indiana counties.

Thanks..I am just being a fly in the ointment..It seems like the whole idea is backed by vested interests, and if anything is allowed to exist long enough , it becomes "common, agreed upon Law" It appears , that after the age old Farming interests passed, the concept continues, not unlike some of the other similar laws on the books.

Of course, they could keep making the switch to DST earlier and earlier, and the switch back to ST later and later. Then, the penultimate absurdity, we would always be on Daylight Saving Time. The ultimate absurdity would then be to go for another hour....

Life is backed by vested interests, AKA Democracy. The alternative is fascism.

Not between 23 deg north and 23 deg south it doesn't. It does so twice a year indtead, because summer is undefined there.

You mean Red Indian?

No. I mean American Indian.

Love it!! LOL!!!

Thats what my German saying is mentioning:-

"Wer nicht weiß, glaubt viel!" = "Those who know little, believe a lot!"

Same Indian also knows that they don't change time on the reservation.

From Wikipedia:

The Navajo Indian Reservation, which extends into two adjacent states, Utah and New Mexico, does observe daylight saving time.^[15] The Hopi Reservation, which is entirely within the state of Arizona and is an enclave of the Navajo Indian Reservation, does not observe DST.

From Wikipedia:

I think you are agreeing with me. (?) I do agree with you 100%. Esp on the 'leave us alone' comment.

Everybody hates it ! It was created by fat flemones self indulgent in the molicie, who can't get their ass out of bed if it is a little cold; there shouldn't be other timebase but theirs. The rest of us still consume energy early in the morning, with the dissadvantage of consumming more in the evenings, 1 hour earlier; and cut our outdoor activities due to the lack of sunlight in the winter. Its saddening: you go to work before sunrise, and return at the sunset.

Only in one thing you are wrong, it is the winter time which they "corrected", the summer time is the natural time we've always had (eventhough Vicente Fox says not many like it).

...it is the winter time which they "corrected", the summer time is the natural time we've always had...

Perhaps in Mexico. Here in the US, 'Standard Time' used to be year-round. 'Daylight Saving Time' was started in 1916 during World War I. For many years it only lasted about 6 months. 'DST' was lengthened to include most of the year during the G W Bush administration.

You're right, I was thinking of my country.

To answer some of your comments from my personal point of view, someone who likes DST.

Your comments in bold Italic!

Everybody hates it !

That is patently absolutely untrue, otherwise we would have never had it in the first place!!! Even if was only one person who likes it (ME!!), your comment is wrong.....think about it!!

It was created by fat flemones self indulgent in the molicie, who can't get their ass out of bed if it is a little cold;

Mouth Ulcer & Softness?

Two words their that at least the CR4 spell checker did not understand, but neither did I, so a complete waste of a sentence...I have underlined the wrong words to help you correct them! Spanish maybe? Here we speak English (or American depending upon your point of view!!)

The rest of us still consume energy early in the morning, with the dissadvantage of consumming more in the evenings, 1 hour earlier; and cut our outdoor activities due to the lack of sunlight in the winter.

This really doesn't make a lot of sense, either the "extra" energy usage is in the morning OR daylight the evening!! You cannot blame DST for both!!!

Its saddening: you go to work before sunrise, and return at the sunset.

That could well be true, maybe you need to change your job if it is that important for you, but do not forget, the Sun is there for a specified amount of time per day (check your diary for Sunrise & Sunset times!).

How accurate the clocks are in relation to the Sun, is usually a value that fits in approximately with hopefully the "middle" of a country getting the Sun at its highest point at around 12:00 IN THE WINTER!), Obviously the part of the country to the east of the middle has the "wrong" time as does the western side. You can easily test that for yourself....but no guarantee from me as to how exact it truly is....

I would expect that possibly some countries are "politically" time aligned with neigbouring countries....though thats a pure guess....

DST does not lengthen or shorten that time between Sunrise & Sunset.....so blaming DST for your personal work scheduling is simply a complete waste of time....

Nothing you wrote showed me a reason for me to change my mind about DST.

I liked DST when I worked and I like it now in retirement. So I need some VERY valid reasons to change, can you bring any here for us? Facts, links and the like?

Till far more people dislike it, it will stay as it is, so try and get used to it and use it to YOUR advantage.....

Have a great day.....

Some studies have gotten inconsistent results, but one carefully done study in Indiana showed that DST causes people to use more energy.

I'd like to see a study comparing the yearly per-capita energy use for New Mexico and Arizona - similar states in many ways, but one uses DST the other does not.

From Wikipedia:

• A 2008 study examined billing data in Indiana before and after it adopted DST in 2006, and concluded that DST increased overall residential electricity consumption by 1% to 4%, due mostly to extra afternoon cooling and extra morning heating; the main increases came in the fall. The overall annual cost of DST to Indiana households was estimated to be $9 million, with an additional $1.7-5.5 million for social costs due to increased pollution.

Why have "months" at all? What do they represent?

My calender could accommodate 365 days, without any reference to months.

Why not have 16:25/67/2015?

Why even have years? Switch to the Julian Date Calendar that astronomers use. By that calendar today is 2457091.

Lyn,

I never thought of it that way. That is a very precise way of including the time with an exact date. Very nice. Thank you!

I reality that would solve having to play the spring forward/ fall back game.

Though people would still complain about it.

Indiana and Arizona simply do not play the game and it seems to work fine for them. I didn't have a problem with it while living in a State that never changed the clocks.

It doesn't seem to be as useful as it once did.

I also think we should all just use UTC and be done with it.

I'm more of an evening and night person so I would prefer setting the clocks back twice a year.

I lived for about 15 years in Bariloche 41º South / 71º W where we had the same time Buenos Aires had (our capital is 34º S / 58º W): For some weeks it was great to have natural light until almost 11 PM... the problem appeared after a certain time, cause we prolonged family / social life far beyond we were used to and consequently slept much less than needed.

Neither in Hawaii...

US population 300+ Million

AZ population 6.7 million

You lose.

I agree, DST makes no sense - not even economic. That is except for the special interest sectors that fight for it with phony statistics and labeling anyone against as being backward, primitive, super-conservative, etc.

Every shift of the clock is followed by a blip upward in traffic accidents ("jet lag" effect). Also, extended DST results in increase in accidents during dark AM hours when children are walking to school and drivers are less alert.

Since most all motor vehicles are air-conditioned, DST brings an increase in the consumption of gasoline and diesel fuels which more than offsets any energy saved in electricity for lighting.

More and more places of employment implement flexible work hours. More folks now work at home using computers and internet. This enables us to have our spare time when we want it.

Hard to calculate, but evidently quite significant, are the high costs of twice-a-year rescheduling of functions and operations. This is all the more complicated when they have to be synced with other nations that have different DST shift dates. Airline timetables - ugh!

DST was imposed on Japan during the occupation following its surrender in 1945. When the army pulled out, the Japanese government wanted to continue with DST in order to minimize coal imports for generating electricity. Ministry of Education fought this claiming that superior education was essential to the country's recovery but because of DST children weren't doing their homework. They won.

Show us some statistics to back up your empty claims.

As usual, late to the party.

Tell me which "claims" you mean in my post, if there is a "claim" there, I will do my best to answer in a simple and easily understandable manner for you and you alone!!

But leave the "facts" alone please!

Your entire post is ridiculous and contains no "facts" at all, except that solar heating relies on the sun.

You are simply stating your opinion.

Don't insult those who disagree with you.

I am still waiting on having the "claims" that you "claimed" I made, to be pointed out......

Now you are going off on another tangent!

That will never win you an argument......that is if we were having one!!! I wasn't, but you might be!!!

Try and stay with your own ideas for a post or three....!

Thanks in advance!!

Andy,

True to form, you don't have a clue.

Worse yet, you ask for proof for something that no one wanted proof for in the first place!

I said, "Do we really need DST, and why?"

I never said "prove to me that we need DST.

So, once again you are late coming in and then just adding your usual bluster.

You are worse than a rock in my shoe, but I've gotten used to your demanding "proof" when none is needed.

I am sorry that you are feeling so "Ratty" today and yesterday and tomorrow.....you must have a VERY unhappy life.

But, I now, due to the number of good posts and great interest that this blog has generated, see that there are even more advantages to DST than I ever dreamed of.

Though I have ALWAYS liked it, but hadn't thought about it really.

So I have to thank you partly (Mostly Zvi !!) for making me think and to bringing me to KNOW that I need DST, even as a pensioner....

So from the bottom of my heart, to all who posted here, MANY THANKS!

I see no point in wasting time and energy on CHANGING DST now!!! Let it stay!!

So we will actually see a NET GAIN in the quality of life and less hot air (more for balloons!) from politicians talking about it and wasting money to change laws that don't need changing! and some other hot air blowers here!! anyway!!!

Good luck in your little world.

I see you ignored the part where energy usage of AZ and NM was compared.

Remember what Mark Twain said.

Because it was not comparing for:-

a) the vast number of people who live in more northern (and southern) climes than AZ and NM for example, the ones that benefit more with DST as it is anyway....

b) It was not comparing like with like exactly, the two states may be similar, but they are not exactly the same......AZ = 6,553,255 persons and NM = 2,085,538. Only a complete idiot would compare the two.......Close (?) but no cigar!!

c) Those are US States (they are not alone!) where house insulation is at best often mediocre and AC is a way of life. The complete opposite to here and most of the rest of Europe.....

If you want to believe such comparisons, be my guest, someone has to I suppose....you are elected!!

Remember my German saying, you prove it more and more with your aggressive, inaccurate and unfriendly posts.....

But do have a good day anyway....

I hope it is not a meteorite.

In the land of Oz we have three time zones across the mainland. When Day Light saving kicks in we have four. Other than the recreational advantages there is an economic advantage in that trading hours are increased or at least fielding enquiries as the calls are just forwarded to those offices that are open early or late depending on what state they are in.

I am all for DST and my cows don't mind it either. They say the extra sunlight helps the grass grow. My Mother, however, still thinks it fades the furniture.

BAB

LOL!!!

That "extra" sunlight is probably what is causing global warming.

In fact, one of our "progressive" governors from Florida, has forbidden his Department of Environmental Protection, from using terms such as "climate change" and "global warming. He says it doesn't exist.

I've been prevented from taking the "non-rock" to geologists, but I will.

"I have yet to hear (or read) a good argument against DST.....from anyone."

I have yet to hear (or read) a good argument FOR DST ... from anyone.

Back when candles were the principal source of illumination, perhaps, but Ben Franklin's suggestion of it was in satire!

From Wikipedia (among several energy items): "

A 2008 study examined billing data in Indiana before and after it adopted DST in 2006, and concluded that DST increased overall residential electricity consumption by 1% to 4%, due mostly to extra afternoon cooling and extra morning heating; the main increases came in the fall. The overall annual cost of DST to Indiana households was estimated to be $9 million, with an additional $1.7-5.5 million for social costs due to increased pollution.^[87"

It is well established that sudden changes in schedule cause stress in many, if not most, people. I believe it is also well established that increased stress exacerbates or even causes many medical problems.

I waste a significant fraction of an hour setting clocks at each change, and commonly forget to set at least one, which leads to more stress.

I'd be happier without DST!

You ignore the obvious.

No matter where you live, or what games you play with the clock, you will still have the same relative amount of daylight and dark every where on the planet.

We're stuck with DST and it isn't that dig of a deal.

But why? We don't grow Victory Gardens any more and golf courses can adapt.

I just like to be awake when it is daylight and I cannot get up at 4:30 am to enjoy daylight, But I can stay awake longer to see a sun set.

Hi Kevin! "You" put "your" finger right-on the problem:

I just like to be awake when it is daylight and I cannot get up at 4:30 am to enjoy daylight, But I can stay awake longer to see a sun set.

Using the word "I" three times, "you" tell "us" what "you" like. But there are lots of "us" that very much prefer precisely the opposite: Daylight in the morning (4:30 AM) for jogging, bike riding, swimming, gardening, etc. with noon at midday and darkness at night (before 10:30 PM!) leaving time for "our" nighttime activities.

Can "you" justify imposing on "us" laws that cost money, burn more fossil fuel, make for more accidents and upset "everyone's" life in order to favor what "you" like, and "we" don't, just because "you" don't like getting up early?

How about a referendum? It probably will never be because "your" side is likely to lose.

You are also inaccurate in your seasons. The last two weeks of winter are now DST. All of spring and summer are DST. We will be well into fall when DST ends. The phrase "spring ahead and fall back" is memorable and instructive on which way to change the clocks but is now inaccurate.

As long as the sun sets later in the evening, I am OK with it. Spring or Fall, meh.

GA

You picked out of a very long page, a couple of sentences that appear to support your theory.

Here is a longer piece from the same article, do please note that the final opinion was a 1% saving in energy!!

Detractors of daylight saving time point out that scientific studies assessing the impact of the time policy change to DST in Indiana have identified a significant increase in energy usage and spending on electricity by Indiana households. Indiana households paid an additional $8.6 million in electricity bills according to University of California, Santa Barbara economics professor Matthew Kotchen and Ph.D. student Laura Grant,^[17] while supporters of Daylight Saving Time point to studies such as Professor Kotchen, the Department of Transportation and organizations such as the California Energy Commission claim that the United States saves approximately 1% of energy when Daylight Saving Time is being observed.

You're right - it is a very long page. So long that I didn't read it all...

...and you're also right that we do tend to see things that support our own biases, and ignore those that don't.

I'd love to see some real data on actual energy usage in the weeks before and after changes in or out of DST, but I haven't found it. Unfortunately, I have pretty low confidence in the veracity of most government and industry studies, as they tend to suffer from the same biases.

Regardless of any energy that may be saved, there are clearly other issues that need to be considered, such as medical, mental, and learning problems.

I gather you are fully retired. If so, what difference does it make to you what they call the time of day?

The key advantage I get from both clock changes is no longer have to drive home from work precisely at sunset. The route I take puts the sun right on the roadway I'm driving. Having to look directly into an about to set sun in an attempt to see what I might run over is terrifying.

I tend to get up with the Sun, sometimes have to even drag the dog out of her bed, she likes a lie in!!

I hate winter for being so dark in the morning.

I like the days getting longer....nights shorter.....

DST sort of divided up the year for me.

I have been using DST (or knowing about it anyway) since I was quite small.....

Its an old friend!!

Now if enough people get together, they may be able to change it.....but I am not going to lose any sleep over that.....nor am I going to vote for a change either!!

Unless its for Double DST!!

I don't know Andy - we're fed with warnings, via the boob tube, from AAA, AMA, DOT, ASPCA, AKA, NCAA.... every blinkin March and November telling us to be please be careful because there is a statistical increase in traffics accidents, heart attacks, strokes, bad cases of acne, body odor and so on, after a time change.

Never saw the statistics myself, either, but would all those organizations, especially the governmental ones lie to us? For what purpose would that serve?

Myself, I don't seem to have any issues with it, but I handled the oil field quite well, and we'd do 48 hour shifts often and even did a 72 hour one once with about 300 miles of driving involved, so I am probably a bit different than norm.

Again, without some good links,like for instance that one from Zvi for example, all you say is well, not much!! Your opinion....

You could be right or wrong....I have no idea which.....

I personally like DST, but I could live without it, I am not "ferocious" about it either way.

It is just funny that practically ALL the people here posting AGAINST DST, post no links supporting their thoughts....Even links posted purporting to be for getting rid of DST, turn out, if you read them all through, to be the opposite!!! My quote at the bottom is from one such a site!!

Really funny......

I am of the opinion that its probably 6 of one and half a dozen of the other...and not worth the money/energy/time to get the law changed.....that would simply be a total waste....

From this website:-

Time to Move on?

Here is the conclusion:-

"Daylight saving has been credited with speeding up production in industrial plants and lessening eye-strain among school children, and it has been blamed for forcing homemakers to prepare dinner during the hottest hours of the day and browning out lawns unaccustomed to so much sunshine," Downing said.

"As you can imagine, the Congressional Record on daylight saving constitutes the great comic novel of the 20th century," he said.

"It's absolutely fascinating what daylight saving been blamed for and credited with over the years."

LOVE IT!!!!

Andy,

Only a complete idiot would cherry pick parts of an article and slant them to support his distorted, incorrect OPINION!

Let me correct your lies.

No Energy Savings

"When you give Americans more light at the end of the day, they really do want to get out of the house. And they go to ballparks, or to the mall and other places, but they don't walk there. Daylight saving reliably increases the amount of driving that Americans do, and gasoline consumption tracks up with daylight saving."

Hazardous to Your Health?

A 2012 study by the University of Alabama at Birmingham's Martin Young found that the risk of heart attack surges by 10 percent on the Monday and Tuesday after moving the clocks ahead an hour each spring.

Fortunately, these scary statistics may be balanced by the return to standard time, according to Young's research, which also found that heart-attack risk decreases 10 percent when clocks fall back.

"Just Plain Tired"

His research suggests that the human body's circadian clock, kept in tune by light and darkness, never adjusts to the changing chronology of DST.

"The consequence of that is that the majority of the population has drastically decreased productivity, decreased quality of life, increasing susceptibility to illness, and is just plain tired," Roenneberg told National Geographic in 2010.

Farmers Against DST

Many farmers still don't like DST, including some dairy farmers, who find that cows' natural milking schedules don't adapt easily to a sudden shift.

Andy,

Either state the facts or shut up!

Lyn: go back and read your first sentence, then the rest of that post.

You have just done it yourself! So that means...

I could have just copied and pasted the entire document. I did not alter the thrust of the document to suit my position.

Did you read; 1. the document; 2. your response; 3. my response.

Please point out the distortions in each reference.

Whatever. DST is here to stay.

I'm getting sleepy Andy, good night.

You give advice that you would be better giving yourself! Try looking in the mirror!!

You are obviously unable to tell the difference between a possible "fact" and what is an "old wives tale!" and DST....

JUST 4 U, I have no problems either way, said it before say it again as you might have missed it!!!

As I have stated several times, I DO LIKE DST! But I have not promoted it either way, its just that you and many others HAVE NOT PROVED THAT YOU ARE RIGHT!! Probably never will either!!!

In all the Contra DST arguments, its SO easy to pick holes, so I pick them!! ITS FUN!!!! You go ballistic, whats new here?

But, if it is as I believe that the differences with or without DST are difficult to quantify exactly (too many idiots trying to make a political statement), and are probably in the order of Plus/Minus 1%, then there is no need to change it!

Which will make me happy. As I like it. Its like an old friend that greets me every spring.....

ONLY a 100% accurate "proof" might make me change my mind....

That does not exist either way....YET!

So until such proof is available, we should simply leave it alone.....why waste money changing something that no valid proof exists that it is worthwhile or not?

Change for changes sake???? Surely not?

If you don't like summer and winter time, and you live in a DST area, then MOVE!!! GET YOUR ARSE OUT OF THERE!!

Simply stop ranting and raving about something you have absolutely no effect on!!!!

Furthermore:-

Lynnette, you post here like a woman with period problems, some days great other days simply dreadful. It even appears sometimes to be a 28 day cycle sometimes......you simply just end up appearing unstable, some even talk about it behind you back.........not my problem either way.....

Wait 2 weeks till the middle of your cycle and read your posts again, MAYBE you will get it? But I somehow doubt it!!!

We all put up with you, you simply have to put up with all of us as well!!!!

Have a great day anyway.....CR4 would not be the same without you!!!

Though some days it really is like shooting fish in a barrel!!! Your fish, your barrel, my gun......!!

"But, if it is as I believe that the differences with or without DST are difficult to quantify exactly (too many idiots trying to make a political statement), and are probably in the order of Plus/Minus 1%, then there is no need to change it!"

I agree 100% with every segment of that statement.

The only thing is, I'm pretty sure you intend "then there is no need to change it!" to mean "then there is no need to eliminate DST!", while I intend "then there is no need to change it!" to mean "then there is no need to change back and forth from standard to DST".

I'm pretty sure that there is a feeling of mutual respect between us, but we sure are on opposite sides of the fence on this very minor matter.

I agree. No need to change the clocks.

As I said earlier, DST should have gone the way of Victory Gardens.

Its still great to have you here as well.....

Whats a war without a good enemy?

Seriously, we need some cool heads here to continue to enjoy the argument!!

The premise was made that it needed to be changed due to energy requirements/usage from the detractors. Well that has shown to be a motivation that nobody can prove either way.

Furthermore, why waste millions of $$$$ in the USA to change a law that probably does not make any difference either way.....which is where I tip my hat to....The US economy is/was running into a minus, why make it worse....? Even by one red Cent?

You have counties and states where there is no DST....here I have NO choice, I must have it in both Germany and the UK!!!Luckily I like it!

Stay fit and well.....

In the UK this gets debated every time the change between GMT & BST approaches. The original proposal in 1916 was that the clocks should shift by 80 minutes, in 20 minute weekly steps.

Germans never understand facetious humor, do they?

Other than my unfortunate work experiences with interrupted sleep patterns, everything was a joke. The whole point of the post was we have NEVER been offered those links to the statistical data you are looking for. NEVER. Our media here spreads these "facts" and expect us to believe what they say.

Two points, first Germans do understand it.

Also, I am not German.

So you are "facetiously" wrong on both counts!!! Do try and find it amusing!!!

You wrote:-

"The whole point of the post was we have NEVER been offered those links to the statistical data you are looking for. NEVER. Our media here spreads these "facts" and expect us to believe what they say."

What if "you and they" are wrong and the data we all seek simply does not exist!!!

Thats the most likely explanation.....otherwise Snowden would have "outed" it I am sure!!

Yeah I know - but you've been there long enough to become like them.

I am not wrong - I never claimed the studies existed nor ever believed them if you read my first post to you. I have never noticed a problem from the time change. However, as stated before, I may be a bit desensitized, as I do know what true sleep cycle interruptions can do to you, as those 48 hour shifts could occur anytime and I was never sure how much sleep time I would get in between them. I remember sleeping 13 to 14 hours at times, and then going days on just a few at other times. Yeah, eventually this did become a bit of a problem, when I would only make it as far as the first carpeted floor in my house and go to sleep there.

Actually, the most likely explanation is the studies on sleep cycle interruptions from shift work. So someone, most likely a labor union official, said lets apply that to DST and there you go - problems. But again we guess.

You said:-

Yeah I know - but you've been there long enough to become like them.

How could you possibly know what I am?

Your judgment in both people from other countries and a severe lack of simple good manners, makes you wrong again!

3 out of 3 tries!!! Not a good average!!!

Thats also a rude and very racist comment......but what should I expect from Redneck country????

Are you also a white supremacist by the way? (notice I am not saying you are one, I am simply asking!!)

I know as much about you as you know about me, that is nothing at all......

I work with Europeans quite a bit in my job, and your comments on CR4, and I've read quite a few of them, are no surprise. I see the same strange logic patterns (this is where we get motor control circuit breakers that are RED for run and GREEN for stop????) and the same misunderstanding of American twisted humor. By the way, I'm 6 generations down from a German immigrant and grew up in "Pennsylvania Dutch Country", which is really from Deutsch, not Dutch - the English here messed it up. Near as I can tell from the family tree, my genes are 100% from right there originally. Oh and since when did German become a race?

I started this conversation, several post ago, with the idea of a bit of humor, as you and Lyn seemed to be getting a bit out there, and now you've drug me right there to. Need to lighten up man. American humor is a bit nasty at times, but not meant to be vengeful.

Just a question, "But did the English mess it up before or after 1776?"

(also I guess you meant British not English!!)

Are you a person that believes people cannot change in around 240 years?

I believe that most of them can! But thats just my opinion...

So, if I was you (but please do just as you wish!), I would not still be blaming the British for any deficiencies you feel are still in your home country!!! Far too late for that!!!

But do please list the problems you think that are still there, I am fascinated?

By the way, in Europe, those colours you mentioned are wrong for starters. Maybe cheap Chinese equipment? They haven't a clue....

They are also the colours most usually mixed up by colour blind people. Maybe the person that put it together is colour blind! and doesn't even know it! No quality control either....Buy elsewhere....

But don't blame me, or the British or even Europe for the button colours please......I expevt that the USA also had nothing to do with it either....

Have a great day.

You have an OT of 6 at this time. Now thats an "A**E" score.......it could get even larger!

Your "A**E" too!!!

Tip, we spell Ass differently in the UK.....

What you write is what we might write "Biblically" (Joseph and Mary etc.) and simply mean a Donkey....

Do have a great day......

That's OK, I started with 5. It could get smaller too. I'm not worried, either way.

You need a nap. I'm afraid that daylight savings time has upset your schedule.