What if we all banded together to establish an industry?

Come on guys and gals. I need input. I need a business plan that the Small Business Administration will eat up. I need those mechanical drawings you spend nights playing with. I need all those off the wall electrical designs. I'll put my ass on the line and borrow the money, but I need input. I need a legal guru to include everybody. This is possible. When fate looks you in the eye, you kick his ass. You feed me data, we select the best design, I move forward. Your money is not at stake, we all profit.

I need help to move forward. This is a winner. This is your chance to make a difference. With the exception of the CIA AND MI6 nobody knows.

James

Just think if we could devise a portable rig for recycling TIRES! Uncle Sam would pay you to move it to all the tire piles in the US that they are now responsible for.

A lot of people have looked at this but it's labor and energy intensive with possible hazardous waste in the process.

All these problems can be overcome. We focus on waste that is related, and expand into the more prosperous. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. I need guidance on a business plan, one the Small Business Admin will accept. I borrow. We overcome the technical problems. I have a VA disable certified business, we get government business, we overcome and provide a good service. Society benefits.

We profit and the world is a better place. No body loses. I need everybody's brain.

This is something old men can do. A better environment for our children.

James

Well a business plan is really pretty straight forward.

where do your raw materials come from? what do they cost? & how many sources are there?

How much does your process equipment cost?

what are the operational costs? water, electric,Waste disposal, phone, labor, administration, legal, permits, taxes, insurance, marketing & consumables

what is the market for your product(s)? are you expanding an existing market? are you opening a new market?

who are your competitors? how will your business affect them?

Answer these questions as completely as possible.

I'm sure I've missed something

"I'm sure I've missed something"

If it is recycling, environmental studies, as well as employment issues. You covered alot.

There is some good business plan software available to help with this.

watch for it, a new CR4 Blog is born which will address a process for salvaging energy for our waste. The project is lead by pvhramani, a mechanical engineer with 15 years of experience in the agro- businesses and in polymers (plastics). Several of the CR4 gurus and power users are joining into the project as well and will be making major contribution. Pvramani is preparing the engineering scope of work as we speak. Watch for it, it is on its way. If you are not yet an engineer or if you simply interested in seeing how a project is engineered from its concept, through to it completed and certified design, then come join the blog. This will be an outstanding learning tool for students and beginners in engineering design. The title of the Blog will be "APIX Pilot Plant Design Project - Recycling Wastes" and is hosted by CR4.

I would say You did not miss anything, and I am ecconomist also....

Best thing with garbage processing is that government would PAY for anybody to do this, because it solves big problem. Any proceeding from collecting metals, plastic, paperor other recyclabe materials (if any) and producing ground fertilizer are bonus profit. Yes, it would be good to have also transportable unit, but only to be able to process allready burried garbage on deponias. Else I think fixed (stationary) factory would be necesary as garbage would keep comming day by day........

One thing would not be recomendable and this is burning of garbage with plastic and metals mixed in, and if it could be done without burning at all, that much better......

AHAH! There's an outfit that started up just last year - '06, with a tractor/trailer mounted rig called a "Tire Shark". It chews up tires, removes the steel belts, and bales up the pieces. The tire material can be remelted, or chopped up to size and used as mulch or playground surfacing, and several other applications. I've seen it in action, and it is great technology. Keep in mind that even though one is not the first to think of a great idea, independent thinking is still a good thing.

It could be done though. I recall that the US Bureau of Mines Technical Center in Pittsburgh, PA did studies back in the early 1970's that demonstrated the use of old tires as feedstock for an oven and distillation train to produce a char and useful oil feedstock. One big problem now is the use of steel belting, but with a little bit of ingenuity that could be eliminated as a problem.

In any of the schemes necessary for recycling, there is nothing new or exceptional technologywise; it just needs to be implemented.

We already know that plastic pipe of varying sizes can be made from recycled plastic bagsm milk jugs and other plastics. It should be straightforward to develop skid mounted or trailer mounted units to do this and run them in landfill sites on a rotating basis (for trailer mounted units). We could compete against the scrap dealers that are currently getting the cities to give them free feedstock.

I think James is right, it is doable and if we are interested in "saving the world" from sitting in their own garbage (as well as make some money on it), we should lead the charge. Especially if someone is willing to put up the cash. The only issue is that there will need to be multple designs for recycling different materials. One technology will not fit all!!!

If we can extract the steel belts from the rubber, it goes to the steel mills to make more steel.

If tires are burned, then it is just question of an electromagnet to pick this steel out of ashes, and if put on chain transport, it could carry them out of incinerator and drop on truck outside then go back...........

Cement manufactures are beginning to use tires as a heat source for their kilns instead of natural gas. They are burned to ash and the steel is reclaimed. Combustion gasses are scrubbed. If we take away their cheap fuel, cement prices will go up.

Now they are trying to perfect the burning of those plastics that are considered not recyclable.

Don't drive a stake in their heart. We all use cement products.

http://www.lafarge.com/cgi-bin/lafcom/jsp/content.do?function=1354_economiser_energie&lang=en

Add in that Blast furnaces and coke oven from your local steel industry can utilize virtually any type of hydrocarbon feedstock if it is properly ground, of course the use of those materials as fuels is a last resort. Btw, what ever happened to the efforts made to put forth fluidized bed combustion of waste products to generate heat for utilities?

Hi, Sniccus!

Yes, old tires are problem, but would it not be better to recycle them? Less troubles and You get product You could sell........ Greatest danger is from sulphur they put into rubber, else all You would need is Solar incinerator, even portable in parts (if each miror would be on one truck). But I think there is bacteria that eat rubber, so it could be done by using biotechnology. Garbage is different cauldron of troubles. In Italy they have (stationary) factories for garbage processing, which is also better idea that transportable recycler: garbage would keep comming from same source and could hardly wait next wisit of some transportable recycler. In my country I tried bringing people from italy 18 years ago to my country, but politicias were greedy and seeing that it is profitable business, they wanted part of profit :-(( so we did not get such plant as yet. Here is also VERY criticall situation with garbage, specialy on the seacost where they run out of deponia space..

Now, as much as garbage processing factory (mobile or not) is necesary, I would suggest we start with something different: we should make association of engineers that would deal with inventions and help inventors to start production. Instead company shares in usuall sense of word, there should be virtuall shares where one share is equall to one Euro, for instance. Then board of inspection and project approwal made up of most qualified engineers would asses various inventions or even just ideas for inventions and their usability and marketability. Choosen projects would then be financed from money in hand, and inventor would be obligated to return money invested and give 25% of profit gained from production and sales of invention in question. If somebody would need money, this person would be paid amount needed in Euro (I think Euro is more stable currency compared to US $), up to his total ownership of virtuall shares. Before mentioned 25% of invention sale profit would be divided proportionally between all coowners of this fund, in proportion to amount of money invested in fund. Therefore, amount invested would tend to grow. Since all money invested to some business venture would be also >>divided<< among owners of fund in proportion to amounts of money they invested, that money would be tied untill inventor dont return it and at same time start paying before mentioned 25% of profit earned. So who invest most would also get most of profit, because biggest part of investment would also be this persons money. Also, I have suggestion for project that could by itself bring milions of Euros with investment of as little as 100 000 Euro: a computer program for virtuall design and testing under all naturall conditions (and also all imaginable conditions, including exterme weather conditions, earthquake, flood, etc. etc.) of any device or invention. It it would be my way, program would work perfectly and user would be guaranteed that results of tests would match at least 98% of results in actuall use..... For big companies that could afford it, it could be rented on monthly or yearly basis, or they could get it for free, provided they would pay 25% of profit gained from production and sales of devices constructed with help of this program, just as would any inventor that would want to use it. Program would come with lifetime updates rights, and in fact updates would be obligatory. That would be so because beside giving 25% of profit, user would be consenting to give complete design specifications of device produced with help of program. Inventor/designer would have full rights to his work and nobody would be able to >>borrow<< it and use in production, but by incorporating those specifications in its database, program would >>learn<< about process of construction of devices, and therefore would become more and more usefull to future users, as it would be able to suggest solutions even from rough specifications, if something like this would exist in its database. More than that, since I plan that it would be possible to engineer/design/construct standard (but scalable and adaptable) parts, which could then be used in construction of target invention by puting those standard parts together like LEGO pieces..... Factories would be able to also describe their actuall products in terms of this program specifications, so inventor/constructor/designer would have also data where and for what price are those >>off shelf<< parts or subsistems available, and so it would be easy for program to calcuate even production cost to last cent...... Since anybody would be able to make specifications for such >>standard<< parts, it would be source of income for many specialists, and they could devote life for inventing same parts or subsistems (like electric generator, for instance) and they would be able to sell their solutions to factories, where it would become new >>standard<< product........ Even Patent Office would be able to test submitted patent requests by this program, and any specifications and test results would be guarantee that invention would work, which would surely hasten process of issuing patents, and lessen costs involved, too. Same way, Patent office could hire engineers to make specifications for this program based on patents granted allready, so it would be proof that patent is working and giving results as expected, unless it cannot work when patent granted should be revoked..... But all patents could then become part of program database and so enlarge its >>knowledge<<, and in addition to it, anybody who attempt to reinvent the wheel would be shown that it was invented allready, and if patents rights have expired, patent could be used freely........ It would be also proof that idea was sound if nor exactly originall, so would be inventor can turn to invent something else or try to make same thing differently, or make some innowation in existing invention. Since program would be able to test device before prototype would be made, testing may reveal flaws that should be excised and replaced by something less vulnerable to breaking or just wear and tear........ Program would also automaticaly superoptimize any initiall specifications, and given severall devices for same purpose could also >>evolve<< some crosbred device more effective than any of its >>parents<<........

So, I am not >>real<< Engineer, but I am IT Systems Analyst and Systems Engineer 1st. Class, therefore I could project such program that would help anybody capable of clear thinking it try any idea fast and see if it works or not :-)) But I am also inventor and son of inventor, so such program would help me too, that is why I planned to make it allready. Just for physicall simulations I need help of physicist but I cannot find money to hire him for a year or so that I would need him.........

Well, what do You think?

Regards from Zagreb, the capitol of Croatia, Europe!

Marijan Pollak

What do you want to recycle? If you're talking about plant matter, you might consider composting to turn it into organic fertlizer. At the same time, you might also want to connect your composter to a pump to draw out the methane gas produced, then bottle it as fuel. You might also consider a similar setup for animal and abbatoir waste. For waste tyres, do you have an idea what the scrapped rubber can be used for? If so, making a grinder that can reduce it to the correct size might be a good idea.

Ther are stringent rules (or at least there should be) around the terrain and preparation of it. A portable plant would make control impossible.

Local authorities are usually responsible and would not like interfering I think they will however accept assistance under their control.

The care should actually start at home by rethinking our wasteful life style.

I disagree. The use of container trucks can create an enclosed environment for filtration and treatment. Agreed though, that a single trailer would not suffice for the entire operation, but 3 should. 1 for shredding, 1 for environmental containment and 1 for hauling product.

I am looking at commercial boilers. These are designed for indoor use. (Buildings)Emissions will be low, no problem. The waste brought to the land fill is mulch. (wood chips) I want it to fit on one trailer. (American tractor trailer) But if it takes several trips to unload & set up, so be it. I need to find and assemble the machinery.

James

Good idea, use internet?. But its mostly impossible.

Just think of paying, repaying. you know its impossible, although the task is not difficult job.

I recently travelled overseas to the UK, and had my mobile put on roving. When I got home the bill was such that I could have purchased a new mobile in the UK. I would like to see a business where you can pick up a mobile phone at the air port and return on departure. If pre-booked then I can inform others of my new number before going on holiday. There must be plenty of old mobiles that could be put back into serve?

Regards JD.

That's a really good idea. You could even set up call forwarding to keep from having to inform everyone of the new phone number. Just charge for a deposit to lessen loss of stolen/broken phones.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I was thinking more along the lines of a deposit covering the full cost with a percentage given back on return, and to prevent getting unwanted call from the previous renter, a returned phone will be taken out of service for a period of time, or the phone number could include a pin number, changed when returned? I think that this might be a bit off topic, but old phones I think comes under the heading of rubbish?

Regards JD.

I have time n my hands and I watched Green Week on the History channel and was impresses. As far as your idea goes cities with barracudas on fire have gotten their waste problem to 10%. As you peel you carots into alittle box it heated it, turned it and it was oderless, great for kitchens and used enough power to elecrticute an ant and then it would take awhile. I seem to remember only 10% of the waste went to the dump. Your idea would find out what cities were doing that and replicate it while you think about that 10% I see a desiner occationally that builds green houses for people in the boonies. You can turn the heat off and never lose a frozen pipe, YES off the grid is where ideas need to be Get the money for a 5% carbon foot print for the Boomers. no stairs, 4'doors wide doors,an attached green house to grow god food, wine. and hot air balloons,

Land as it was 9k years ago with land friendly hobit houes and no bill.

The weelchair-Did you know they donT have syspentions, kills you if the trafic doesn't. a little electric antenaa with flaching lights.

Garbage Last week was green an that 10% coukd be something but if you put any thing on a truck it ould be to change the cities that are 80% to the land fill.

Another thing WE cold all do would locate some servers, and all the free feeds, collect them, Britian would be good but put a big flat screen that shuffled through actual pictures of the world in real time. Research of all kinds use cameras, how do we get a feed. it would make a great screen saver, nothing would get done HOOLLYYYYYSSMMOKESS a pengquin, yikes.1000' down under the ocean, A little cafe just fixing everything.

An egg shaped shoe box that when you get home put your shoes in, push the butten.. A little vacuum pump pulls all the little molocules of air right out of everywhere, it couldn,t hide. the ionionized air as it slowly seeps back between layers, no more smell. several variations on that one like what do they do at the bolling alley.

Green is the way, you get a company to bring up the slackers and shot for 10%.

hastingselectric,

I like the way you are thinking. Add to that the International component and we will have New-Co USA, New-Co SA, New-Co UK etc. Count me in from about mid next year when I will be free to invest some time (and money) in a new venture.

I attach a sample/format of a business plan for your perusal. Nope I cannot, I will send it to your CR4 mailbox.

My thoughts, it is a great idea, I hear the legislative restrictions Hendrik is mentioning and the Environmental Impact Assessment will be difficult if we have a mobile set-up. However, this will be semi-mobile, since we will have several locations, but also limited locations of operation. Say, in a metropolitan area, maybe you will have 4 to 6 locations where you operate. There will be localised "dumping" or collection bins set-up by the venture, that is collected and taken to the nearest processing site.

Alternatively the unit can be moved from dumping site to dumping site. In collaboration with the owner of the site, a processing step can be added. Thus the plan should be to process certain wastes, i.e. household, plastic, rubber, glass, paper, garden etc. As someone mentioned garden refuge can be turned into compost, same with most household waste. Paper we can process (I remember a thread on paper recycling not so long ago, we can utilise that idea). Glass we can reprocess (melt and form?) and make an interesting container sold by a downstream venture at informal markets. Plastic can be recycled to make containers to send into Africa for people to transport water. A clever design can be made to make it easier to fill from a tap or well (maybe have a sort of funnel attached), and have a nice flat bottom to carry on the head, with strategic handles placed for easy access to place it on the head and remove.

So there we are, a low-bed truck with three or four processing plants on, fitted with a biodiesel generator. If we at the coast how about using some waste gases to do desalination of salt water? We can boil it and evaporate and condense. Loud thinking there, a chemical eng can help with the detail.

My "expertise" in Project management (with system engineering) and piro metallurgy is at your disposal.

Let's do this.

TC

WHAT I AM THINKING IS A GLOBAL EFFORT TO CONSTRUCT MASSIVE DESALINATION PLANTS ALONG COAST LINES THAT BORDER ARID LAND, FOR IRRIGATION PURPOSE AND TO PROVIDE FRESH DRINKING WATER FOR LARGE METROPOLITAN AREAS. SUCH APROJECT WOULD HAVE BOTH SHORT TERM IMPACT IN JOB CREATION, IN AREAS OF LOW EMPLOYMENT POSSIBILITES, THE CREATION AND INNOVATION OF NEW IDEAS AND TECHNOLOGIES. REDUCE THE DEPENDENCE ON HYDRO ELECTRIC POWER WHICH HAS ADVERSE EFFECTS ON THE NATURAL HABITAT. THERE IS ENOUGH PLASTIC THROWN IN THE WORLDS GARBAGE EVERY DAY TO BUILD A PIPE LINE IRRIGATION SYSTEM THAT WOULD GREEN THE SARAH DESERT AND PROVIDE JOB TRAINING AND LOCAL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITES. THE OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE LAND WHERE PEOPLE AND WILDLIFE TO MIGRATE TO, AND TO LOWER RISING SEA LEVELS BY PUMPING BILLIONS OF GALLONS OF FRESH WATER DAILY TO TARGETED SITES WHERE CROPS COULD BE GROWN THAT WOULD PRODUCE CLEAN RENEWABLE FUEL AND PROTIEN TO ADDRESS THE GROWING DANGER OF A STARVING WORLD. THE PLASTIC TO PRODUCE THE PIPELINES IS CHEAPLY AVAILABLE AND REQUIRES LOW MAINTENENCE, UNLIKE STEEL.

THIS WOLD ALSO SERVE TO REDUCE POPULATION CONGESTION AND ITS CONSEQUENCE OF URBAN SPRAWL, AS PEOPLE WOULD MIGRATE TO THESE NEWLY CREATED AREAS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO CREATE NEW LIVES AND BRING THEM INTO A MORE HUMAN NATURAL HABITAT, THE REVIVAL OF CULTURE, A HOMELAND FOR WORLD REFUGEES WITH THE OPPORTUNITY TO REBIULD SHATTERED LIVES, AND WHERE THERE IS HOPE AND OPPORTUNITY, THERE THEN EXIST SIMUTANIOUSLY THE IMPUT OF NEW IDEAS.

IT WOULD REDUCE THE REASONS FOR WAR TO EXIST, IF VARIED GROUPS HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE ACCESS TO CLEAN WATER, REDUCE THE COSTS INVOLVED IN HUMAN DISEASE AND THE OXEYGEN EMMISSIONS WOULD GO FAR TO REDUCE GLOBAL WARMING. TO ADD A FURTHER NOTE TO THE ABOVE COMMENT ON WAR, IT WOULD REDUCE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS CURRENTLY SPENT ON ARMS, AN AMOUNT IN ITSELF THAT COULD PROVIDE FRESH WATER FOR EVERY PERSON ON EARTH, AFRICA WOOULD BE A GOOD STARTING POINT, WE ARE ALL AWARE OF THEIR PLIGHT AND THER PRESENT LIVING CONDITIONS DUE TO LACK OF FRESH WATER, IT WOULD SUFFICE TO BRING INTO THE WORLD A NEW ECONOMIC FORCE, MILLIONS OF JOBS CREATED, AND IT COULD BE ACCOMPLISHED IN TEN YEARS, ALL THE DIFFERENT POLITICAL FACTIONS THAT EXIST WOULD COME TOGETHER FOR A COMMON PURPOSE, THUS FOSTERING CONSCSEUS AND INTERDEPENDENCE AND THE FALLOUT WOULD BE A DRASTIC AND IMMIDEATE END TO REASONS TO WAR, THAT IS THE PRIMARY REASON FOR REFUGEE CAMPS, SLAVERY, THE SPREAD OF AIDS, MALNUTURATION, AND THERESULT THAT GIVES RISE TO THE POWER OF ANARCHAY AND DICTATORSHIPS. WHICH WOULD THEN LEAD TO A UNIFIED CONTINENENT. THE SAME REASONINGS STATED WOULD ALSO BE APPLICABLE ON A GLOBAL SCALE'

PLASTIC PIBES WOULD BE BURIED UNDERGROUND TO A DEPTH THAT IS CONDUCIVE TO THE PLAN, IT IS ALSO POSSIBLE THAT WATER COULD BE PRESSURIZED BY REDUCTION IN IN DIAMETER OF PIPE SIZE, AS IS THE COMMON METHOD, TO CONSTRUCT POWER PLANTS TO PRODUCE ELECTRICITY, A TAKE OFF FROM THE THE CURRENT METHODS EMPLOYED IN THE HYDRO ELECTRIC INDUSTRY, WITHOUT THE DAMMING OF RIVERS AND DEFORESTATION AND ITS TOXIC, ADVERSE, ENVIRONEMENTAL IMPACT. FOR THIS A GRID SYSTEM WOULD NEED BE EMPLOYED THAT WOULD CREATE BOTH ELECTRICTY AND IRRIGATION, COMBINED INTO ONE SELF SUSTAINING SYSTEM.

THE CONTOURS OF THE LAND WOULD CONSTITUTE A MAJOR FACTOR IN THE DEVELOPEMENT OF THE GRID SYSTEM, TO GET THE WATER TO ITS DESIRED LOCATIONS, SO AS TO MAXIMIZE ITS ENERGY POTENTIONAL. GRAVITY WOULD ALSO MAKE UP AN ESSENTINAL COMPONENT, FIRST TO ALLEVIATE THE INITAL COST, BASED ON THE PREMISE THAT THE SHORTEST ROUTE BETWEEN LOCATIONS IS A STRAIGHT LINE. IT IS TO BE CONSIDERED THAT ELEVATION IS A POSITIVE WHERE GRAVITY IS CONCERNED. A SUBSTATION WOULD BE CONSTRUCTED, THAT WOULD SIPHON OFF THE MAIN LINE A PORTION OF WATER TO BE EVELATED TO A CONTAINING AREA AND FROM THERE IT WOULD FREE EALL TO A POWER GENERATING STATION, THESE UNITS THAT ELEVATE THE WATER, WHEN THE METHOD OF PRESSURING WATER IS NOT SUFFICENT, COULD BE SUPPLAMENTED BY WIND AND SOLAR POWER TO BOOST IT.

THESE HOLDING AREAS WOULD ALSO SERVE A DUALITY OF PURPOSES THAT WOULD NEED BE FACTORED INTO THE EQUATION. ONE,THE WATER FROM THE HOLDING AREA WOULD NEED BE MAINTAINED AT A CONSTANT LEVEL AND ONLY WHAT IS REQUIRED TO REACH THE SUBSTATION BELOW WOULD BE LET FLOW, VIA PIPELINE, AS IT FALLS, GRAVITY WOULD ACCELERATE ITS MOTION,AND AS MOTION IS ENERGY, ITS POTENTIONAL IS DRAMATICALLY INCREASED FOR THE SUBSTATIONS TURBINES BELOW, FOR THE TURBINES I WOULD NOT RECCOMMOND STAINLESS STEEL DUE TO ITS INITAL COST AND MAINTENCE, BUT RATHER A NATURAL PRODUCT, SUCH AS HARDENED GLASS MADE FROM LOCALIZED SAND. THE WATER WOULD SPIN THE TURBINES, GENERATING ENERGY AND CONTUNING ON, WITH LINES RUNNING OFF IT FOR IRRIGATION PURPOSES, FRESH DRINKING WATER AND SO ON TO THE NEXT SUBSTATION. IN EFFECT WHAT YOU WOULD ACHIEVE, IF ENGINEERED CORRECT, IS A PERPTUAL MOTION MOTION. FOR THE OCEAN WITH ITS IMMENSE SOURCE WOULD BE THE BASIC COMPONENT OF THE MACHINE.

AS TO SOME FURTHER THOUGHTS, THE OCEAN CONTAINS MINERALS THAT IS ESSENTINAL TO IRRIGATION. THE REMOVAL OF THE SALT, WHICH I THINK IS A SOURCE OF SILICA COULD BE USED IN THE MANUFACTURING AND THE TEMPERING PROCCESS IN THE PRODUCTIONOF THE TURBINE SYSTEMS AND ITS COMPONETS.

ALSO I WOULD RECCOMMOND THAT AT ALL THE EVELATED CONTAINING AREAS, A PORTION OF WATER BE ALLOWED TO IRRIGATE AROUND IT, SO AS TO CREATE AN OASIS, AND THE WATER IN THE CONTAINING AREA BE STOCKED WITH FISH. I WOULD ALSO APPLY THE SAME IDEA AT ALL THE SUB STATION, A SMALL LAKE ESTABLISHED AROUND WHICH SUSTAINABLE HUMAN VILLAGES WOULD BE MAINTAINED, STRICT LIMITS ON POPULATION AND THE USAGE OF NATURAL FERTILIZERS.

IT MUST ALSO BE CONSIDERED THAT WHAT IS GROWN IS NATURAl TO THE HABITAT, FOR NATURE RECGONIZES ITS OWN, ITS HISTORY IS IN THE MEMORY BANKS, CONTAINED WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE LOCALIZED ELEMENTS, AND WE ARE ALL AWARE BY NOW OF THE LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES OF ILL LOGICAL HUSBANDARY.

ANY THOUGHTS ON THIS, FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME AT,

marlonfequet@globetrotter.net

The need for fresh, potable water will is and will increase exponentially each day. It has already reached the crisis point in much of the world. Your general ideas have merit. Perhaps you should follow them up with action. You could also look into increasing the world;s food and energy supplies with effective use of the fastest growing plant in the world, seaweed. At least it is worth a study.

BTW, please do not use caps only for your text. It becomes more difficult to read and is like shouting, thus distracts from your valid points. It also causes many of us to believe that you are very young, as well. Perhaps you are a weatherman, they seem to use caps only, too, hehehe.

A wonderful idea. But if we want to succeed, we need to watch that we don't add to the hell pavement (hell is paved with good intentions).

One problem, that appears in such associations, would be the confidentiality of ideas, plans, as schematics (drawings) and schedules etc.

I would, certainly, want to assist with my knowledge and skills in electronics and, as a matter of fact, I have some ideas, of my own, to save the world (one watt at the time).

On the pessimistic side of the idea, I fear that just the initial impulse will rise some enthusiasm and all will fade, shortly after.

But I am in!

Pick a group of related waste products. Build a platform using off the shelf machines and modify that system as you expand to other waste products. It's an open discussion, plains are open for review, copy and create your own regional business.

No patents. Kind of like spreading a good virus.

James

Another element to enter into the "feasibilty study" is WHO this new invention would impact NEGATIVELY, meaning "stepping on toes" or "biting into someone else's gravy-train". These entities (some quite powerful) would be there to squash a good idea...happens all the time.

There is no one I know if in the USA who has the power to squash us down, many who would like to do so, but none who can. These are the same who tried to squash down Al Gore, too, and you see the success they had with that. We are looking to take up where Al Gore left off and I bet you a dime to a donut that Al Gore would be happy to join in our fight if someone can ask him. Forget about the vice president, he is nothing compared to the power we can wield. We are the people, no elected people, just plain citizen type people. Look at who owns the USA, the Contution's first line tell it all, "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.". I see nothing about big business or a political party or the wealthy owning or running this nation and I happily extend my hand to all on this earth who can accept this philosophy as establish by this Constitution. This is OUR country and this is OUR world.

I was thinking of when I was a youngster, I can still remember? we used to put food waste into a separate bin for the local piggery. Taking this a step further, and collecting from a wide area, maybe food wastes could be recycled and processed into fuels?

Regards JD.

I haven't much time available, but this could be a great innovation. Please at least keep me in the loop.

This is an intriguing Idea.

How about using those diesel powered tree shredding machines...With some modifications...To shred plastics, like old milk jugs, water jugs, pop bottles, etc.

They can be run on bio diesel and still do amazing things. anything that can be shredded to be recycled can run through the things. Of course nothing with steel in it. Bulk papers and plastics and the like including trees and brush for mulching.

Just a thought for the mechanical side.

Thats a good idea. I finished a job at a Plastics extrusion plant in Commerce, GA that put its waste plastics in something similar. They sell this to a plant that does not need high grade plastic.

Find a source for this re-cycled waste and the problems will solve themselves.

Thanks,

James

Before I moved to Florida, I lived in Tulsa/Catoosa, OK, but years before that, I lived in California. There, they have machines outside of every grocery store and convenience mart called "Golden Goats". You feed in plastic soda bottles, water jugs, etc., it shreds them up and spits out a nickel for each one that went in. The shredded plastic goes to an outfit that uses it to manufacture - get this - Astroturf! Indoor/outdoor carpeting that resembles (superficially) grass, and wears like iron. Even comes in different colors... Also can be pelletized and used to make other plastic items.

Hmm, establish an industry is a tall order - is this really what you mean, or establish a line of green(er) products?

Have been involved in the 'waste industry' for a while - multi-billion dollar industry with all sorts of waste streams, and grass-roots recycling efforts etc. Have already seen plastic to diesel set up in tractor trailers. For instance - an example of plastic to oil is

http://www.globalfinest.com/tech/

and then there is this idea

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/07/making_oil_out.php

and this

http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn12141

and there are plenty of huge organizations with articles coming out all the time like

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2005-06/acs-oc061305.php

etc. Economics would have to be investigated on each process.

--------------

Of course the key in most of these is teaming up with one or more producers of scrap or collectors of recycled materials that are each sustaining -

Sustainability, and the infrastructure of supplies to keep you going is probably the biggest barrier - plenty of enthusiam and you are correct all problems are solveable in small bites, the bigger issue is having enough control in the market (big brother involvement? Voluntary recycling works a little . . .) to maintain supplies and deliveries of inputs and outputs.

The other main issue of course is the competition from older more established competitors who will work to make the cost of cost effective production and market entry more difficult. They ignore this thinking now of course since the barriers to entry like infrastructure and lack of market control don't appear to be serious threats to them at present.

Interested of course; like your thinking.

Jim

I went down to make more coffee and you sparked an idea.

We all focus the discussion on a mobile plant you lease to counties. It's parked at the dump, tied into the local grid, and waste generates electricity as county revenue.

I like the idea, but how to overcome the SBA (small business administration loan paperwork) is the only thing that has me cornered. The ideas and technology can be worked out.

James

I have many years of machine design experience and am interested in this discussion. The first step in the equipment design phase is identifying the short term and long term objectives of the equipment. Will the system handle solids, wet solids, what lump size? Is the equipment more like multiple processes linked together or is each system unique and specialized for a certain type of waste? What are the size/weight restrictions if any (pull-able trailer)? Does the system do sorting then handle different types of waste differently? Will the material be handled batch or continuously? If batch how is the material staged between processes? What is the required thru-put so as to be cost effective? What difficult to handle by-products are involved?

After writing this I realize we must first determine what kind of waste the first system will handle and will the targeted waste be mixed with other types of waste.

I believe the "blue sky" approach this forum is taking is correct to start.

Recently read in Popular Science about a man who invented a device using frequency-adjustable microwaves to break down material into oil and gas.

OK, guys and dolls, let us migrate to the discussion "Pondering over what we might do with huge wastes" as presented to us by pvhramani. He has already begun the work for our first project. I nominate him as the principle design engineer for this first project. Do NOT worry about pay scales or costs of operations as yet. After all, we are doing this for the good of mankind, to save our earth for our children, not for profit. Our reward will come from the good we do, we will be saving billions in helping to prevent loses from flooded seashores and lives. We will be making our earth a better place for our children, providing them with stability of climate and atmosphere, water, and land. God, regardless of how we see Him or name Him, gave us this earth, it is up to us to keep it. Look how far we have come since the cave man, and that has been be accident. Now, let us build on the knowledge gained by our ancestors and build a better world on purpose.

Note, too, that pvhramani has already presented a process for us to work with and that there have already been many comments and suggests presented to him. I know that some of you are already on his threads and know about this, so let's use his beginnings.

I got a response from a question to chemists, that generated an idea. My county land fill has a mountain of shredded wood. The local EMC (Electric membership Corp) deposits from keeping the Powerline right of ways clear. Is it feasible to use this wood product to fire a steam generator. Free fuel, county hires an employee to man the equipment, power is bought by EMC, I lease equipment. I need an accountant type to crunch the numbers. Is anyone familiar with a company that manufactures a small steam plant.

James

Check co-gen sites. A quick look only found construction companies that can build big ones. I didn't find any that build a turnkey "skidded" system delivered on the back of a truck. With a little more searching, maybe.

You must realize that operating even a small one in your "backyard" will require zoning and EPA approval as well as getting the neighbors to sign off. It's a lot different than having a compost pile. (Would a large compost pile be called a dump?)

It may have to be a series of sub-systems. The county dump is large, the government does about what it wants. Your right though. Many details will need to be resolved.

James

Understand that this problem is not insurmountable.

look to the Siemen's gas generator to produce energy from the sawdust at a far, far more coefficient way than just burning it..

I like the idea of recycling, but I prefer the Re-Use philosopy at the battle front as method of first line barrier to protect the Mother LandFill. If only the industry can standardize on every bits and pieces of components of a machine, toy, appliance or any thing, one can dis assemble and restock every nuts and bolts and components for re-unse and the rest that can't be re-used, to be recycled. A re-use item is less processed energy than to manufacture an item from recycle material, I think. Perhaps if you can include this in your overall design concept or thoughts.

We have the power to standardize, we are engineers are we not? don't we know, and in fact, did we not help write the standards in the first place?

Thanks, I had not thought of Siemens. I have contacted three manufacturer's so far.

I don't think this is technically difficult, but the paperwork will be. I contacted the local SBA for help.

James

Should I be able to assemble and carry out this operation, all my notes are free for all to see. Maybe someone else can follow through in their community.

<one can disassemble and restock every nuts and bolts>

Sorting of salvageable from unsalvageable junk by workers, transport to the disassembly plant, plant infrastructure, more than a few disassemblers at minimum wage at best or union at worst (how much would you want to get paid to salvage nuts and bolts, sort them and warehouse them from discarded filthy junk), forklifts, shelving, water usage (sanitary facilities), electric lighting and environment control costs, supervisors, at least one engineer with a widely varied background, book keepers and payroll, marketing staff, owners. And then you have to dispose of the leftover junk.

Just how much are you willing to pay for that old nut and bolt? And then you will have an old filthy nut and bolt to sell to someone who is willing to buy a filthy nut and bolt. Are you willing to? (ethically you must tell them)

The idea sounds terrific, but the reality of it must be addressed. Salvaging gold from electronics sounds like a great idea financially, and I know that there are a few companies that do it. If it were that good of an idea, wouldn't there be a plant on every street corner fighting for their market share? Do you know of any in your town off the top of your head?

I don't mean to be pessimistic, but if it were such a good idea, money hungry entrepreneurs with the means to make it happen would be jumping in with both feet

Jaguar,

I think we have strayed from the path here. The idea is to form a non-profit to salvage the energy we, as individuals, normally throw away. We can salvage the natural gas produced by our landfills before the energy si wasted in our landfills. We can salvage the natural gas produced in our sewers. We can salvage the energy lost in all of our biomass waste products. We can salvage the energy that radiates to and from our rooftops. We can salvage the heat energy wasted up our chimneys and out the exhaust pipes of automobiles. what is suggested and what we are currently working on in another thread is to let teh individual and small industries, especially the farming industry, to salvage these energies. It seems our governments and big industries do not want to fool with it because it is little profit for them. Their greed does not let them see the benefits of saving our air, water, or land. Their major concern is how much they can put in their pockets now, perhaps to be able to pay their bills run up by their hidden "seven virgins".

I agree here; the leisure class exists where food and energy are plentiful - if we could only double the poor efficiency of today's solar panels and conserve a fraction of the rain water that falls, we'd have way more energy to focus on more important ventures like more efficient production and distribution of foodstuffs and clean water, cost effective medicines, etc. With cheaper energy and food needs met, we might all turn voluntarily to supporting a renewable mass system. The solution has to benefit (so it will be perpetuated by) the masses.

Jim

remember the premise of Star Trek; food was distributed to all freely, war and prejudices were abolished, all of earth lived under one benevolent government, and man was free to explore the universe and establish alliances with all new lifeforms they came into contact. A Utopian state, yes, but still a dream worth dreaming.

Could you imagine.....what if the top thinkers could create something to repel gravity ?

That....would get someone REAL rich.

My favorite beverage is called Yuengling, brewed in the oldest brewery (since 1829)

in America. From the fine state of PA. It helps me repel gravity.

James

Love that Black and Tan!

WHY WOULD ANYONE DESIRE TO REPEL GRAVITY-TOWARD WHAT AIMS. IF MONEY IS THE TOTAL OBJECTIVE; WHAT A SAD SITUTATION IT WOULD CREATE. IF YOU PLAY WITH FIRE IT CAN TURN AROUND AND BITE YOU, AND OFTEN DOES. GRAVITY IS AN INTREGAL PART OF NATURE AND AS SUCH ANY METHODS EMPLOYED TO HARNESS ITS POTENTIONAL FOR PROFITS SAKE ALONE, MUST INCUR AN EQUEL BACKLASH.

BY NATURAL METHOD IT IS ALREADY EMPLOYED, BY FREE FALLING WATER TO SPIN TURBINES TO GENERATE ELECTRICTY. ON THE OTHER HAND, GRAVITY IS THE NECULUS AROUND WHICH THE ATOMS REVOLVE AND BOND, SPLITTING THE ATOM RESULTED IN THE CREATION OF THE ATOMIC BOMB. A NIGHTMARE THAT HAUNTS US DOWN THROUGH THE AGES

THERE IS ALREADY A SYSTEM IN EXISTENCE THAT REPELS GRAVITY, ITS CALLED THE ELEVATOR. MARLON FEQUET.

Looks like they are working on that "one benvolent government"...

So many people think this is a good idea

I eoulf like to joint in as well.

I f you need electronic control design, power, drawing circuit or pcb or cad and simulation(if needed) send me mail. I can undertake the job.

In fact, I found there are lots of cotrol circuit board on the waste market can be reused. Many big co 's in the world have beenrunning this job.

cnpower, I am sure that pvhramani would like to have you on his team, but you need to contact him. Chris Leonard has informed me CR4 is ready to set up the BLOG for this project.

As for being a good idea, I am sure that the Chinese would find it a good idea, too. In fact, this could go a long way to helping the Chinese people to find the clean energy needed to left the individual away from poverty and take the leadership in solving some of the pollution problems that China now faces. I hope you can find this work rewarding as we move all the people of the world toward freedom from want. To go hungry is bad, to starve is horrible.

Very most of countries are faced with rubbish reuse recycle. I was told from TV or newspaper, that developped and industrilized countries are source of rubbish. Some of them sent the rubbish to the third world countries by kinds of way to pollute those region. So advanced countries should pay more attation to the recycle reuse. China hasnt yet sent their pollution to other countries.

China would find more clean energy resources for their develop and good life. In fact, chinese has solved their problem on food since decades years ago, there is no starve in China. Not only say byby to hungry but can eat delicious wheat steam bread and meat foods every day now.

If you still see some photo of starve, that must be one of century's ago.

You are right about the USA sending its rubbish to other countries, it makes me sad and I apologize for this. The USA is only Western Nation that has not signed the treaty to stop polluting the atmosphere, too. One thing all humans must realize is that we, the entire human race, is the most wasteful animal on earth. This project which you are applying for is an attempt by a few to help correct the wastefulness and, at the same time, help those peoples who are starving and who cannot even heat their homes or cloth their children. I am very aware, too, that China is one of the world leaders in producing methane gas from household wastes to be used for cooking and heating. This is done with a very ingenious septic tank near their farms. The project that pvhramani is proposing is similar to that system but will be more sophisticated and actually engineered to provide some usable products which the farmers can sell to increase his income. But let me stop here and let you contact pvhramani. You can find his CR4 address on the CR4 forum.

Yours,

chtank

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~chtank/

You neednt apologize for it, it deponds on goverment, not its citizens.

From media, Present Bush seems agree to sign the Tokoy treaty recently.

Not only USA, but several advanced countries are all export their rubbish to developping coungtries including china. every year, our custom bans much of rubbish from these contries.

hope africa also can use methane gas energy in their home.

why there are so many war there?

I can only do very little thing in bounds of my lnowledge. I like to do it, but its pity. I know very little English and Im afraid I cannt help too much.

Your English is far superior to my (and probably MOST of the people involved in this discussion) Chinese. Do not apologize, continue to use it and it will improve.

you neednt laugh at my poor skill

I try to improve it through the forum gradually. although I forget fast than learning.

I hope all of you can point out the mistake of the sentence. so that I will not make the same mistake again.

Chinese is more difficulty for your west to learn, especially its calligraphy. handwriting art. just like a painting.

ok, let s help each other. and make good prograss.

recycle reproduce is not a new idea in china. I dare to say. Farmers use this idea for thousands of years in every countries.

clean energy has hydropower, solar power, wind power, tide power, ground thermal power and marsh gas power etc.

almost of all the kinds of energy has been developped in China now. what very most of poeple know is three gorge hydropower, and solar power and wind power in Tibet, and widely conutryside built their own marsh gas power and on other hand, it reduce pollution.

if you visit China, you will find these facts. Of cause, China is still poor comaring with west countries, but the difference is reduce. situation is changing toward to good direction.

I visited China last July (four cities between Beijing and Shanghai) and other than the fact that the people are oriental, and the signs are funny, I could have just as easily been in Manhattan. I would say that Beijing's biggest problem is traffic (which makes me think of Manhattan). In hotels, I saw technical innovations which we don't even have in the states. 1. If you overload an elevator, it sits and "dings" at you until enough people get off for it to go. 2. An escalator will just barely creep along until someone steps on it and then ZIP!!! it takes off for the next floor.

If your vision of China is millions of people on bicycles running around in "Mao" uniforms, you are sadly mistaken. I would have to say that the cities we visited were some of the most modern in the world.

I was impressed Cnpower...

Bill

The region you travelled is rich south china. especially around shanghai. both beautiful senery and rich life. We call them a district of fish and rice.

haha, I dont know how to say in english.

In most of china cities, trafic is a big problem. just think, most of population, most of car and bus were on the way at the same time. its terrible, which havent met at other smaller countries.

Thats why I have ask the new developemt on the world trafic in this forum, but none answer it.

Every elevator in China has to have these functin, if it overload, it will bipper until the weight is less its rate. its safety. I think every country must has this function.

The big cities in china has little difference from world cities, but in west china, there are still poor district. some place s are very poor.

I read all the posts and found them very interesting. I like the idea of using a portable steam powered generating system at the county landfill. If we had a good exhaust gas scrubber that would capture the particulates in the exhaust, this would open doors. Just thinking about the time I tried burning a piece of tire in my hot water boiler, what intense heat from a small chunk of tire. IF we had a good scrubber and could burn tires under a forced draft while adding pulverized waste as a co fuel, we could eliminate waste and tires at the same time, all the while selling energy back to the power grid. As the garbage comes to the landfill it is separated over a powerful magnet to remove most metals. Pulverizing hammermill would handle most of the rest of the stuff. If we had a good scrubber, the epa would not be trying to stop us, even Al Gore would be on board. Energy dept. may even finance. This has a lot of possibilities, I hope it doesn't die out.

I can do all things through him who strenghthens me!!

If a design comes out of this the place to promote it would be in 2010 at the world business expo in Shanghai - focus on Dontan - the worlds first eco city http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/5084852.stm
check out Arup's designs for this.

Rick, is it possible to provide a process flow diagram of this digester, its input to output. What quantity and quality of input produces what quality and quantity of output, energy input or output quality and quantity, etc. This is exactly the information required to satisfy the first needs of many farmers and small communities. This is exactly what the first module of the APIX project is after, too. We are simply wanting to design a digester that is simple to build at a cost a peasant farmer of ±2 ha (or more) can build with local materials. Please refer it to http://cr4.globalspec.com/blog/97/APIX-Pilot-Plant-Design-Project-Recycling-Wastes with a comment to the blog. The first module is for bio-digestion and this will be the next blog topic. The second module will be fermentation, followed by the pyrolysis (the syn-gas system) module. In time, there will be a blog module for electrical generation using the products generated by these first modules, bio-digestion (methane), fermentation (alcohol), and Pyrolysis (syn-gas). Your input is very much welcomed. SImply go to the blog and make comments to it. pvhramani, the team leader, is a Mechanical Engineer with more than 15 years experience in this type project and is native to India. The APIX project is his life long project.

Chtank

There is 15 years of R&D on this, and new developments. I have emailed pvh directly.

I can send what is already in the public domain. The system can be made from off the shelf kit and existing trailers or containers can be adapted for it. It has been trialled on a number of feedstocks. (The one I like is maize, because it has 8x more gas than other crops and the digested seedcake could be a low methane food substitute for cattle - though I'm not clear if this reduces the methane that the cattle produce, I'll try it and let you know) There is an autoclave/pyrolysis element - which I understand to mean high temperature treatment without oxygen - as an add on to this system which is designed to deal with abattoir waste. Everything I read about the resulting fibre and its ability to hold water, and the KP ratio of the liquid fertiliser is v. positive. I will wait for pvh to contact me. It may be best if I get the inventor directly involved. He's a farmer and has his own sustainable energy vision for his region.

The science may be the easy part. The international business model is another jigsaw. say company A has licensed technology x in country 1 - and has no capacity to supply country 2 - what's the quickest route to local production ? Encourage company A to start trading in 2, set up a subsidiary, or get a trading partner? Or encourage the inventor to get another license with company B? when manufacturing companies (like farmers) take decisions slowly, are risk averse, and there is no-one to tell them which environmental technologies will be superceded in 5 years time (Only hedge funds seem willing to invest in all of them) this process can be painfully slow.

Is there another business paradigm? How could you do a Google for sustainable technologies? what are the best free systems around that APIX could be constructed out of tomorrow? Could Apix be an Adobe-style license agreement, free to everyone but with bells and whistles that cost money? A globally registered co-operative design (registered onCR4?) with a license fee that applies to commercial manufacture but not for non-commercial use? A foundation?

Suppose there there could be a definitive engineering website, linked to a knowledgeable group of cyber-Hoe's (Hoary Old Engineers) - that everyone, I mean everyone, recognised as having the best sustainable technology "search engine" and information network. Companies would be falling over themselves to buy advertising. That would pay for APIX.

Don't forget to investigate some of the micro-investment programs that have sprouted up over the past 20-30 years in "third-world" nations. Some of these have provided as little as $100USD loans to village women who have bought sewing machines and set up tailor shops, or purchased small food stocks and become the village grocer. Nearly all of the loans are paid back (with interest) from what I've read (so goes the work ethic, so goes the entire ethic). For some reason, it doesn't seem to work as well with their menfolk...

And remember EMILY - "early money is like yeast" - funding small up front at the beginning can be more effective than massive injections of cash late in the game.

Rick,

At this time, I own a domain with host which I am allowing to expire in February, 2008. The annual cost for this is ±$152(US) with $12(US) being the domain registration. I am retired, on social security, Medicare, and simply cannot continue the site. If someone wishes, I can change the ownership to them, however, they will need to register a new domain. The old domain was for an area alumni association of my college fraternity. But, likely, domains and host server is less expensive through Go Daddy or some other web site hosting company. These hosts are very competitive these days. I do have a hosted site of my own that includes much of my personal work, (google search for chtank yealds CHTANK'S HOME PLACE from among nearly 2000 hits). This site and sub-domain is free of cost to me, unlimited in use and space, but I am reluctant to use it for any other purpose but personal. I fear that doing so would violate freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com's trust in me. Over the years with this site, we have been on very good terms.

Please check your personal mail box.

I just checked it. (8:41AM Sunday) Nothing new. I'll check hourly.

James

Your basic premise is a good one and in some cases applicable. It is really a logistics as well as an engineering problem. The material to be processed has to be stored till the requirement of economy of scale is met. Then there is the regulator side which still is very encumbering to say the least. First it was to be a solution to a problem, secondly it has to have an economic benefit or why will anyone do it.

Best place to start is were are the problems. The main problem with waste is that we do not demand the cost of disposal be put into the product. If this was done, you wouldn't need enforcement laws as companies would go to great lengths to eliminate that cost from their products or they would lose market share. It would be good business. The cost of disposal would be a deposit, and anyone down the line recycling it would get the deposit. The deposit would have to be enough to provide adequate incentive to do so.

Take containers for example, we should adopt the Canadians system of having a national deposit on all containers. Our system of each state making environmental laws is very ineffective and way behind times. Lets make it the same in the Americas. It's time we realized we are all citizens of this planet.
Thanks, Mr Green Too

"It spreads like crabgrass."

Or more to the point, it spreads like water hyacinth, which is a horrible waterway-clogging weed in these here parts. I like it! DME strikes me as being slightly more dangerous than gasoline and slightly less so than hydrogen from a flammability standpoint, so it seems like a fair tradeoff. So there's at least one person here interested to hear about progress. Possibly even involvement... And welcome aboard!

There's a reason water hyacinth and giant salvinia are listed as invasive species but they're the same reasons they'd be good for a biomass plantation. The plants will be grown inside plastic greenhouses inside a fenced compound located as far from natural waterways as practical - for example the middle of the desert. Also the plants will be genetically tagged, the company bonded and insured for escapee clean up costs, etc. Hopefully, that'll make them more acceptable to jurisdictions.

I'm hoping that this project can provide motivation for developing some cost effective technology for cleaning up the waterways and the excess fuel load in the forests. Some African lakes are really jammed up by floating islands of the stuff. It can be life altering for one of these islands to blow up to shore near a village. They just about have to pack up move the whole village as I recall.

DME should be about as dangerous as propane/butane. It's something the market knows about and can adopt fairly easily, I believe. That's one of it's attractions.

Concur - great for biomass production, and if controlled, safe for the native species. What a vision - plastic covered canals of floating greenery across southern Nevada/California pumping out O₂ to repel the brown cloud of smog... If there's a push to round up the current growth to add to the stocks, it would be even more popular. What about kudzu? Dang stuff grows fast enough to watch!

I had it figured as about like propane/butane - lower flash point than gasoline, higher than hydrogen, relatively safe to handle. Overall, I like the concept a lot!

I've read a bit about Kudzu. Fascinating plant. Maybe it could be harvested from public and private lands (with permissions) for conversion to energy. Maybe the boy scouts could go out and bale it up instead of selling cookies or something and the company pays them a portion of the proceeds. It all gets down to the cost of carbon going into the system. However that carbon is supplied, it has to be able to produce fuel and power cost competitive with fossil fuels without relying on subsidies. If it works and takes off, the subsidies will go away and the same taxes will be imposed as apply to fossil carbon. If it can't compete, it'll wither.

Fossil fuels (coal, oil) are merely carbon remaining from past biological activity (past being on a geologic time scale). Renewable resources (biomass of all sorts) is carbon just now re-entering the same cycle. There is no new carbon, merely new forms of biological entities incorporating it. It's all old carbon, but it's likely to be our primary chemical fuel source in one form or another, for the foreseeable future. But, man, the complexities of all of the related cycles! Why I love biology so...