Pondering over what we may do with huge wastes

I agree with you. We should always improve but is much really achievable.

The efficiency of IC engines improved over time. Unfortunately crude were relatively cheap a while ago.

The reality is also that farming is a business and that it cannot be afforded to waste anything. Wasting reduces income. A normal farming setup uses "waste". There are also plants running to produce biodiesel.

In many communities an animal when slaughtered is almost entirely used.

Meat, skin, sinew, bone, blood all would have certainly been used by stoneage man...I don't know how much gets thrown away today...I expect most gets used if only for fertilizer or animal feed (once the scapings have been made into foul burgers and kebabs)

Del

Hi Del.

This morning the PM has pledged to start building more nuclear power plants as soon as possible! My question is; Where are they going to dump the radioactive waste??? Spencer.

Hi Spencer,

the PM has pledged to start building more nuclear power plants

Any where as long as it isn't in his back yard?

Make the waste into the shape of CDs and put it in the post?! Problem solved!

Del

Scapolie,

There won't be much waste compared with any kind of combustion process. They can't "dump" their waste like the combustion plants dump their waste into the atmosphere or landfills. The nuclear plants sequester their waste on-site.

LG_DAVE

Last I knew recycling of Lead Acid Batteries was about the most complete recycling loop going achieved and going on. Think I read it was up there around 98 percent. What's wrong with me, I seem to have become obsessed with batteries!

But yes I have wondered what systems would waste less, or put to good use stuff that is "waste".

Our Local Landfill is in the top 2 percent of landfills in the nation, and in the course of my work as a carpenter I make many visits. They do pretty well with Cardboard and Clean Wood, and metal, and of course Car Batteries. (We all need to improve what we do with spent flashlight batteries and the like, since they really ought not go in the regular trash and ought to end up with the Car Batteries.)

At anyrate to answer your question, it would seem that there is less waste in battery production, and use, of the materials at least, than in about any other area.

Since that system is established and successful I suggest you study it for lessons as to how it might be further applied, if this is your interest.

I eventually hope to become obsessed with fuel cells.

Great comment about AA,AAA,C,D, 9v, batteries. Lithium, regular, etc. Where is the appropriate place they all talk about?! The government needs to tax the manufacturers for every one sold and imported, so that we know what to do with them. I don't know what the dangers are, but I am pretty sure, they are adding heavily to serious pollution.

Now you have fallen directly into my trap, hehehe. First, keep in mind that of all life on earth, the human being is by far the most wasteful of all. We seem to throw away more than our weight in the trash. Our land fills are more than overflowing. We are rapidly losing any place to dispose of our nuclear wastes. Our air, water and land is becoming polluted with poisons. It is YOUR fault, YOU demanded it, YOU are now paying the price for it. And finally, it is up to YOU to turn things around. If YOU wait for someone to do it for YOU, then YOU will lose out. This is YOUR world, You are its steward.

But, believe it or not, something is being done about it. Have you bothered to look at the USA Environmental Protection Agency site or the USA Department of Energy site? Both, just like in India, are working their tails off to help us to reverse some of our wasteful ways. I know of many in India who are doing the same, in fact, India is one of the leaders in the development of waste conversion into energy. They are developing solar power, fuel cells, bio-digestion, biomass gasification, and much more. Where all of this is slow to develop is with the people. They lack the education, they lack the funding, they lack the engineering skills to put all of these innovations into practice. You, as a Mechanical Engineer, however, do have the education, funds, and skills to help your people and all the people of this earth.

I am doing all I am able to do at this time, being elderly and with very limited financial resources. One thing I can do is think about some solutions and write about my ideas. You are welcome to them. My thoughts are in My Dinosaur's Thinktank, hidden on My Ecology Page, on My Earthbound Space Station, and yes, even in my feeble attempt at a science fiction novel, Alien Reports. I might point out, too, that in gathering my material for these projects, I keep a daily reading file on solar cells, fuel cells, nanotechnology, and with ScienceDaily. I am constantly searching the web for still more up-to-date information on the subjects and as I fine information, I am providing links to it in my Dinosaur's Thinktank and on this CR4 forum.

I feel is it my duty to pass on to you the information as I learn. If you read my essay On Eduction, I am sure you will understand that I firmly believe that God put us on earth to learn and to pass our learing on to our children. Some seek wealth, but that wealth must remain on earth when they leave. On the other hand, if one believes in a soul and life hereafter, as many in India do believe, then one knows that he can take his knowledge with him and leave it for the rest of us as well. All anyone needs to do to give his knowledge is to write. In this way, he has established his own immortality.

Pvhraman, this is outstanding and one of the things I have been asking for to add to My Earthbound Space Station. I am speaking, of course, to the Bio-Polymer Processes. Your process flow diagram fits, most dramatically, the needs of any colony, being here on earth or on any colony on any planet in any solar system. It also would be a required recycling system for any space colony that is set off to explore the whole of the universe. Yes, I truly believe that space colonies will be in our future at some time during human development.

The next step which is needed now, is to translate your process into workable modular units of a size that individuals can use to recycle wastes into the energy that will need to operate each little earthbound colony. This, in turn, can be the vary modules that can be be transported to the colonies on other planets or used by our space colonies. Once such modules are developed, tested, and proved here on this earth, it will be easy to extend them to whatever new locations human life might involve. This is one of the purposes and goals of My Earthbound Space Station and is the purpose and goal of my earlier reply to you. Thank you for the process. With your permission, I will be adding it to my collection of processes.

As for the USA and its government keep in mind, we do have a noisy but bloodless revolution every two years. We are currently entering one now, which is a major revolution. One year ago, we had a minor revolution to remove some of our unpopular leaders, and next year we will remove our most unpopular of all our leaders, replacing him with a new leader we hope wil perform. If not, then we will try still another one. I know, the process is slow and bulky, but it is the best system we have. I am hoping that our next leaders can, at least, restore some of the rights given to us in the "Bill of Rights" that this current administration has tried to erode. For any government leader to place a mark of traitor on anyone who publicly disagrees with his policy is in direct violation of the Constitution of the United States and its citizen's rights of the First amendment.

We have a large "chicken" production industry in America. They may have as many as 5000 chickens per house. You might consider designing a process to convert chicken waste to electricity. They have a problem of disposal. If they could convert it to electricity, and afford the equipment, you can kick back on Miami Beach.

James

They're doing a turkey waste power plant in Minnesota.

In America we bury it. The day will come when we mine it back out of the ground.

Why can't we make it profitable now?

James

You have touched on the BIG issue; how do we make it profitable NOW ?

My background is Chem Eng. Having gone to university in the US in the late 1950's, it was always kind of taught that one major advantage the US had in the chemicals and petrochemicals market was our low cost for energy. Almost any chemical processing requires significant energy consmption in one form or another. Engineers and the public were led down the garden path to assume that energy would always be cheap and available.

In regards to the mentality about energy at the time, I always remember when coming out of university (with a BSChE degree) in 1963. I interviewed with the Research Department of a major oil refiner (un-named). I questioned the scientists whether there was an oil shortage looming any time in the future. They laughed me off saying that for any time in our lifetimes, there was sufficient oil available underground in the US to flood the continental US to 4 feet deep. They were all about computerization of mini-refineries that could be built rapidly; barge mounted nd the like.

I hate to say it, but until energy prices in the US reach those that other countries have been forced to pay all along, we US will continue to waste energy. The technology to reduce energy wastage has been available for longer than I've been an engineer, but it is hard to sell management on energy conservation when the costs to do it cant be recovered for > 5 years (where I last worked, even non-discretionary spending had a limit of 2 years return. Granted that was the steel industry, but then it wasnt much different based on comments from some fellow Chem Es in the chemicals industry.

If 'make' means 'to separate what is wanted from what is not', then there will always be an issue as to what to do with what is not wanted.

• When one exhales, is that "waste"?
• Typically, pharmaceutical manufacture produces 20t of waste for every 1t of product.
• One process effluent is another process influent

Don't eat the Curry, when you have a bad Tummy!

This woman has made a profitable business from wastes:
www.prarietumbleweedfarm.com

You should be pleased with Chtank's request, and look at his essays and other writings. I shall be visiting the suggested sites.

It is apropos that Chtank referred you to something he wrote about education. I'll be looking at it.

Education is much the key for getting mankind through the bottleneck.

It is very sad that the UN does not put out an Educational Television Network receivable on poor and rich TVs. I came to feel that TV offered hope as an educational tool, but that really effective Television was forstalled by UN member fears of free speech.

Imagine if there had been an objective United Nations Television Channel on TVs competitive with Fox, Al Jezzera, CNN and BBC Channels, prior to this last big war, that is winding its way towards the apocalyptic riot.

It really was not a great thing that Rome fell when you consider the Dark Ages.

Systems Analyisis is of vital importance, and apparently Chtank thinks your system of value. In this case, I do recommend that you videotape, or somehow make a Television show about your systems, including as much footage of working hardware as possible.

In the thread, I did read of an example farm that was evocative of your graphic charts. Mr. Gore was at the White House today getting a prize for his movie. It is interesting to me that Current TV, is not much available, and that Mr. Clinton's office was very emphatic about not supporting expanded UNTV.

At anyrate Chtank's judgement has weight with me, and my only suggestion currently from a one read of the thread so far, is make a show of your System, for UNTV, or whomever would distribute it the most widely.

It is amazing that greed and self interested power blocks have succeeded in bringing us as a group to a point where 100 percent loops and efficiencies are really needed and crucial.

It is sad to know that we really do live in a world where it is a fact that we may be destroyed by nationalism.

You Chtank and other engineers can create day in and day out respondent systems and inventions, but until we play the game, entertain, and agrandize same as the competition, we might as well yell warnings down an empty well.

Now to add more fuel to the fire, I came across this article while reading my /. news today. Make of it what you want, but it points out to me, at least, that some of us are doing what we can do. now the article:

http://sfreporter.com/articles/publish/outtake-112107-nuke-to-the-future.php.

As the article states, there are some issues with safety. My issue is what si done with the residue of the Uranium battery after its five year lifetime? One of the problems with atomic energy is the exceedingly long half life of the atomic wastes. What and where are they to be stored. It seem that the deep salt mind cave currently used will run out of space in teh not too distant future, especially if we increase the input with spent atomic batteries.

The deep salt mine cave in Nevada is there, and ready, but politically dead. Harry Reid, the Senate Majority Leader, and all the presidential candidates are avoiding the issue or pandering for votes. The Europeans have no idea what to do with theirs, but will probably end up shipping it to some poor third world nation, and paying off the corrupt leadership there.

Hi all! ... The idea of triggering discussions on the all important subject of "WASTE RECYCLING" was based on the observation that there is a general tendency to be unconcerned about the long term implications when we plan and organize almost all our activities, resulting in repercussions and consequences in future. In this, this writer has been working on certain themes and concepts for about fifteen years now, but such techno-commercial plans/ activities CANNOT be organized and brought to fruition by any single individual. Further, these things NEED very serious discussions and resultant suggestions, modifications, improvements and even total revamping before being considered for practical implementation. Here again, the final practical implementation is a long drawn up process, before which the veracity and practical applicability to actual situations need to be considered from all angles - social, geographic, ethnic, political...etc.

Although the considerations of wastes and waste recycling would have to be very seriously defined/ designed in every human productive works that involves any utilization of materials, energy, manpower ... in view of the increasing human populations and the resultant problems that crop up (crossing the narrow limits of nations and their boundaries) ... this writer thought it fit to THINK on the BIGGEST human activity: AGRICULTURE. The idea is one wherein the concept of total usage/ conversions of all available biomass (which is the real output in any form of agriculture - not merely some crops) as well as recycling every gram of so-called wastes in all the intermittent processes is not only clearly defined, but various processes designed to make this happen.

The writer wishes to thank ALL the people who have so far made various comments/ observations ( a few with sarcasm, still meaningful!) - particularly the following members for their respectable and more knowledgeable comments: chtank, agua_doc , hastingselectric, Hendrik , Transcendian ...

The larger objective of this DISCUSSION is to not only merely elicit certain idea-exchange views and comments but to expose the basic concept to enlightened discussions that would take us more toward practical implementation ... arriving first at a PILOT PLANT.

It is therefore felt and prayed that we may put in efforts to interact and discuss on the PROS and CONS of the basic concept of AGRO-POLYMER INDUSTRY COMPLEX (APIX), as already presented earlier (thread 7, above). The writer wishes to take ONE MORE step in this and present a SPECIFIC AGRO BASED APIX system, which could be the starting point for practical implementation:

The honorable and knowledgeable/ experienced Engineer-Members are being kindly requested to study this concept of APIX being set up in a Banana Plantation. Significant inputs may please be brought in on any aspect deemed fit in the scheme of things. It is felt that our contribution to the wellbeing of society would depend on how well we give back to society through our experiences and through combined IMAGINATION and VISION. These CANNOT be achieved by mere five-star culture seminars engaged in by some elitist and honorable Doctorates and professors alone; not merely discussed in the corridors of government and power centers; not merely discussed by such world organizations such as the UN etc, where the common and mundane needs of ordinary people never really get heard; but need to be also seriously discussed and DIRECTED by practical, down-to-earth engineers and others. And that then is the main reason for this presentation here.

The writer has great feeling toward creating SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT in an otherwise (apparently) chaotic world; but this will depend on the combined efforts of many (or most) of us through IMAGINATION, MISSION VISION.

Thank you, and looking forward to a great and challenging thread of continual improvement to achieve the GOAL of TOTAL WASTE RECYCLING, at least in one human productive activity - AGRICULTURE

pvhramani,

I agree fully with your effort and, for me, accept you as our leader in this project. Please keep this thread going. It is clear, too, that this is a working pilot project that can include more than simply bananas.

After reviewing your process diagram, I note one missing consideration. Either with chamber #1 or with a separate process, one will find the sugars required for fermentation. This fraction could then be used to produce the liquid fuel, i.e., ethanol, to drive the engine driven equipment on the plantation, farm, or homestead. Also, liquid fuel is easier to store than is gaseous fuel. Keep in mind, too, that ethanol, by its very nature, is a high quality fuel for both the internal combustion engine and the turbine (and rocket) engine, even when mixed with water up to at least 10-20% of its volume.

WIth the above in mind, I would look at not only the process as you give it, but would add a area to wash out the C₅ and C₆ sugars for a fermentation process, recycling the residue back into the bio-digestion process. Also, the residue at the end of the bio-digestion process can be used for not only a resin but also for a high quality fertilizer. Both the resin process and the fertilizer process can be an additional source of income for the farmer, too.

Please rest assure that the banana plant is not the only input into such a process. All agriculture wastes contain the raw materials for successful operation of such a process. The difference is the quantity of the end products which effects of the balance of materials within the process.

One last factor to consider is the skills and training of the plant's operators. It seems to me that one very knowledgeable foreman/operator (well trained) could lead a small team of semi-skilled technicians/farm hands. This would, of course, require a team of trainers/educators to go to each new p;ant to provide at least a 30 day hands on training session.

Come on, guys, pvhramani has asked us to form a loosely organized engineering company right here in this forum. We, collectively, have the experience and ability to actually design and supervise the construction of a project such as this. Let's do it! Also, collectively, we will be demonstrating to the young people who come here exactly what design engineering is all about. We will be teachers, too.

I agree. I have a discussion going also about converting waste from American consumers. I feel small mobile units, like ants, can open up new markets, cleanup waste and create jobs. These discussions will spark ideas. We can start a grass roots industry.

James

POST-SCRIPT TO THE EARLIER THREAD No.20 ABOVE:

It is observed that the internet is the greatest domain through which we could not only communicate but also even design/ device/ construct and operate various things in our material need systems. Further, the NET does not come in the way of national boundaries and space-time differences. Let us therefore utilize the great advantage available through this medium and plan/ think of combining together to form a GROUP toward commercializing this GREAT FUTURE THEME of WASTE RECYCLING!

Thank you

What is being described is an open source project!

Various companies or LLC's [Limited liability corporations] would be formed to implement the various designs.

We would need to protect, everyone legally. We are talking about potentially dangerous devices

All equipment would have to be designed with a high level of safety, as the end user may not be that technicaly sopisticated

Equiptment could be built, tested, documented & training @ regional centers or on site depending on the complexity of the equipment.

Check out Potters for peace this fits in with the super trainer methods proposed by CHTank

Hi Garthh! Greetings!

You are absolutely right! But, it is to be noted that no major corporation or government system would ever come into this except perhaps by way of some LAWS, restrictions etc. This writer has been working on this HUGE POTENTIAL concept for well over fifteen years now , and found that implementation is more than herculean task. This has prompted the writer to present this OPEN SOURCE project arrangement, and with internet having the power to break space-time phenomena and does not respect national boundaries, this forum is perhaps the right system to bring this SCHEME to fruition.

What if we reach a NEW arrangement of INTERNET VALLEY, as against a "silicon valley"!

In the ultimate analyses, let all of us put our brains together to bring out a practical PILOT PLANT, at least at the DESIGN level first. Yes! it would need PROTECTION. Let us THINK/ ACT how we may do that too

Best wishes

pvhramani

You are on top of this subject, no doubt. We have a saying, the cat is out of the bag or another is, to late to close the barn door the horse is gone. I hope you are compensated for your work. I would like to work these details out so we design a generic plant the world can copy. We make it available for the small man and get around big business. We use off the shelf equipment so it's cheap to set-up.

James

I think any engineer who is worth his salt knows very well the OSAH rules. As for liability, I do not think anyone is proposing anything that would require licensing, rather, some of the equipment that would be specified is already in existence and/or has been used for centuries, i.e., septic tanks, fermenter's, stills and vacuum stills, etc. Some of what is propose, also, is too large or costly for the individual to operate and would take a team of operators. Other proposals, such as septic tanks as bio-digester's are in use today in many location throughout the world. I see no way that publishing our proposals or suggesting how-to's can cause any legal liability. We are looking at nonnnn-profit, not capital gain or exploitation of anyone's intellectual knowledge. Not even Microsoft can make that statement, even though some of us are using the Microsoft software. THe only thing we have to do is make all our work in the same GPL framework as Linux and the Open Source community has done. When we do publish, we include all who contributed to the project to be within the copyright. In other words, give creadit where credit is due.

To meet one other objection someone made, this is what is called a 100% telecommuting project, something many engineering companies are working toward in today's climate.

You mis understand me. the IP should be open source!

The various systems will of course be designed for safe operation.

If the group is actually training operators, legal protections need to be in place to protect individuals & the group.

We would also need to compile a data base info for permiting & code compliance. Cooperation & premptive compliance will make implimentation go much smoother. In some cases the group will be asked to make recomendations for local regulations!

gotca,

Now, pvhramani has given us several process diagrams, each of which needs to be processed into an actual process flow diagram. The process flow diagram defines the parameters of the process, the process material balances from feedstock to product, a heat balance, equipment size, etc. This process flow diagram, in turn, needs to be submitted to pvhramani for review and in turn published for a full review by all participating engineers. We will go over the diagram with a fine toothed comb, to check for errors in material balance, heat balance, equipment sizing, etc. After corrections, the process flow diagram will be distributed for the creation of a mechanical flow diagram.

The mechanical flow diagram will complete the equipment sizing, define all instrumentation and electrical components, size the piping required, size any support structures required, etc. Regardless of the size of the plant, these flow diagrams are required for a hazards analysis, and for the layout, fabrication, and a detailed set of construction drawings.

While the "detailing" is in progress, we will need a team to start writing a complete installation and operation manual. Once these are complete, we will then need to bundle all the drawings and manuals together for publication in a project book form and present it on the Internet and to a publisher for publishing as a book. Please note, all the work will be original and all the contributers will be listed under the copyright. By listing the engineering team, it will give those engineers the opportunity to be hired as consultants to any manufacturer or constructor.

We need someone to develop this schema into a business plan which can be used for any of the projects we may choose to contribute. I am offering "My Earthbound Space Station" to you as one of the projects. Pvhramani has offered his life work to you, too. It is time we get involved now. So first things first, please, someone, let's develop our business plan as a non-profit organization connected to CR4 in a loose manner. The publication in HTML format in the Internet will be free and open source for everyone, any book published will, however, be with any profits distributed through CR4 to cover costs of operations only. The designs presented here will be copyrighted to CR4, but provisions will be made to give the individual engineer to become a consultant to industry for construction, installation, and operator training. After all, we will be the ones who know the process intimately. (BTW - I am 74 years of age and would not be able to travel or work in the field, so it is up to you guys).

If you guys are serious about this, I'll be happy to set you up with a multi-author blog on CR4 where you can continue the discussion, maintain your documentation and in general move the project forward. If you're interested, drop me a CR4 mail and we can get started.

Chris, I am sure pvhramani will be in touch soon, I know that he is serious. Thanks tons.

The main problem is a culture based on the two premises of constant growth and profit.

Don't get me wrong...proffit is ok in the form of a decent living for employees, a bit for investors, enough to re-invest and maintain equipment. The was a financial gut on the TV awhile back who couldn't understand the criticism of 'excess profit' in banking...'no such thing as 'excess profit' he said.

As for growth, in consumer terms we should be constantly striving for less, not more.

banning all TV advertising at a stroke would help (it will never happen of course).

Sorry if this sounds down-beat, maybe I need to go and eat a Burger, drink a beer, buy some new clothes eh?..that'll cheer me up.

Advertising is constantly bombarding us with the message 'buy happiness' it don't work folks....you end up just as miserable...but fat as well!

Del

Del your right. We have / want to much when all we need will bring contentment.

Wealth is not having all the money you want, but having all the money you need. Aristotle

Pvhramani has an excellent presentation / idea. I do not think re cycling has even begun as an industry. We need a financial Einstein to tell us how do make money with it. When you wave dollars / Euro's in the face of the world, things will get done.

I would like to be part of that.

James

Farming is an industry, energy production is an industry, a farm producing energy is an industry. Energy can be marketed the same is food.

Hi all! .... Once again thank you all for the enlightened discussions and comments.

Before we go further, the writer wishes to present yet another Design Scheme for Biorefinery ... different from Anaerobic Fermentation system... here we would have anaerobic and Thermo-chemical system.

Let us now study the different discussion threads and "redefine" certain FUNDAMENTALS, so that the broad engineering parameters needed for an initial Pilot Plant design may be arrived at. The data presented so far have been ONLY very rudimentary and would have to be the starting point for a continual refinement of designs till we arrive at optimum level.

The honorable members are requested to study and prepare their own Engineering SPECIFIC comments, so that these may be further discussed. It may also be noted that the basic CONCEPT would be SUMMED up in a "soon to come" presentation.

With best wishes

pvhramani

A CORRECTION on previous thread:

The statement "here we would have anaerobic and...." would be corrected as "here we would have AEROBIC and Thermo-chemical..."

Best Wishes

there are two processes involved in waste disposal, anaerobic (without oxygen) and aerobic (with oxygen). The anaerobic system produces, primarily, methane and carbon dioxide while the aerobic system promotes the alcohols, some hydrogen, and sometimes a little acytic acid and carbon dioxide. The anaerobic system is the method use for your septic tanks, and the aerobic system is used to produce your beer, wine, and whiskey. The Thermo-chemical system can define a number of uses, conversion of starch and cellulose to sugars for aerobic digestion or for production of bio-gas which can be used as it comes from the reactor or put into a bio-reformer to produce a multitude of organic compounds.

Dear pvhramani, Your identification of the Agriculture Sector as most vital for 100 percent systematization is profound, and worthy of thought.

The ideal system would apply to all farms regardless of what they grow.

From my study it would appear that farms are specialized to a finite number of main crops or animals.

List farm outputs and markets, for those specific farm outputs.

The markets will be local and global.

The capitalist system is a floor existing foundational system.

If you make your farm completely self sustainable, and independent, especially of oil or nuclear power, produced and packaging for the markets, then the farm will be successful.

For your Banana Farm, "Plantation" list the machines that plug into the system.

This sort of thing has been being done by some Corporations for a good while now.

Wood chips are turned into OSB, for instance.

Typically what the Corporations do is identify a specific waste product of their main product, which is either the most valuable on its own, or figure out how to make something useful from what they normally have to throw the most of out.

Obviously some Corporations spend time making sure better systems or products do not threaten their control, and anachronistic methods or interests, and if you do better, you will be bought out.

From my travels, reading and experience, it does turn out that the Oil Companies really are most venal.

I have suggested in the past that CR4 have a Political Science Section, but I haven't fully codified it. or been properly formal about it.

It would appear in this case how to make it happen so all benefit, might be the sort of thing such members would be of value for. Possibly there would be a mechanism on the site whereby at a certain stage the discussion was referred for review and codification since it was apparent it was actually getting somewhere beyond pie in the sky, and jokes.

Remember that there are many who have rules that they play by, that are different from the rules for the working classes.

The Scientist Ben Franklin was pretty much a practical guy who did a lot to create inventions and systems, though he was probably more successful, and made more money from printing money.

Hi all!

It is heartening and gratifying to note that what began as an initial discussion on Waste Recycling/ Waste Reduction has come to a level of a PROJECT THOUGHT PROCESS, in just two full day's discussions, involving less than 40 discussions-threads. This will now run through our Full concept of AGRO-POLYMER INDUSTRY COMPLEX (APIX) – SUMMARY

The illustration here summarizes the APIX operations in terms of the following:

1. Basic Agriculture/ Plantation operations
2. Crops (Food/ Non-Food); Fibrous materials; unused Vegetation (grasses/ weeds); Agrowastes.
3. Food Processing
4. Starch/ Cellulose/ Fiber – Hydrolysis and Catalysis
5. Proteins/ Oils – Catalysis
6. Oil/ Lignin – Pyrolysis
7. Syngas
8. Agrowastes Anaerobic Conversions
9. Fibrous Agrowastes into Engineered products
10. Downstream Alternate Biorefinery Complex

Here are a few High Value Engineered products that have been developed using Agro-Fibers and related wastes:

The second illustration here shows the photos of Wood Substitute Fabricated Chair, High Finish Molded Chair, High Quality Molded Crockery and a Molded Dinghy. All these have been produced by converting various Agro-Fibers and other such Agrowastes/ Wood wastes into specialty Composites.

The basic ENGINEERING relies on the fact that any form of Agriculture operation produces not only food crops or other so-called "cash crops", but also a huge amounts of agrowastes. These agrowastes are not only the main crop vegetation but also various other plants and weeds/ grasses that are naturally germinated in the surroundings. Advantage is taken of the fact that any such vegetation growth is a continual/ renewable process, and many non-crop vegetations are bonuses in the operations – not one of these would be wasted.

Advantage is also taken of the fact that these vegetation materials (Plants/ residues/ grasses/ weeds ...) could be mechanically separated into the CELLULOSIC portion and a SLUDGE portion. While the cellulosic portion in most materials form STRONG fibers that could be converted into ENGINEERED PRODUCTS and Wood Substitutes, the Sludge (which would have organic matter from about 15% to over 60%) would form the basis for ANAEROBIC FERMENTATION (Please see below – Illustration) and further Downstream Analogous Petrochemical Complex.

Although this writer had initially referred to a Banana Plantation set up for the concept presentation, it may be noted that the design we develop for a PILOT Plant could be one that may be used in almost all forms of Agriculture; except for the fact that the FOOD PROCESSING in the different systems would be different in each specific case. For example, it would be different in the case of Soy from that of Barley; different in the case of Palm from that of Sunflower ... etc.

The most important factor to be recognized is that the APIX set up in any agriculture creates value additions and engineering processes hitherto never attempted in an INTEGRATED AND INTER-RELATED production process. And, it is also to be noted that there would be no need to have the agro-resources to be transported elsewhere for processing – everything occurring at the point of agro-resources production.

In order that we get down to brass-tacks, towards the initial Design, the following may be noted:

1. It would be appropriate to consider the Agro-resources available in an area of 1, 000 ha (2471.0538 ac) for an Industrial set up (not the Pilot Plant – see elsewhere). The idea is that we have a significant and continual volumes of vegetation materials available for our "continuous" processes. As already pointed out we need not restrict the resources systems to the agriculture per se' but we could look at the entire surrounding vegetations and weeds, taking care to see that proper regenerations of these do occur. This writer has estimated that the per annum per ha (paph) resources generated varies from about 150 tons to 25 tons, depending on the latitudinal position of the region involved. For example, in a place like Indonesia/ Zaire/ Ecuador and Brazil (Amazon surroundings), the available biomass per ha would be over 150 tons per annum, whereas that available in Southern Canada and Vancouver regions may be as low as 35 to 40 tons. We shall consider a Process system wherein the said value of (paph) would be 60 tons. This would mean that our FINAL commercial project would be on the basis of the availability of 60, 000 tons of agro-resources in every year. The PILOT Plant shall be designed on a scale of 1:10; i.e, the annual volume of agro-resources INPUTS in this Pilot Plant would be 6, 000 tons of "green" agrowastes.
2. Assumptions for the Pilot Plant are:
1. Annual Agro-renewable resources = 6, 000 tons (average 40% moisture)
2. Cellulosic matter/ hemi-celluose in the resources = 1, 440 tons
3. Recoverable moisture = 1, 000 tons
4. Resources are Collected on a daily basis; but process inputs are on three-day cycle

It would be necessary now for us to fully analyze the basic PROCESS systems and define the specific parameters to fine-tune ourselves to arrive at a systematic PROCESS DESIGN, having logical interconnections and operational arrangements. As chtank had indicated: "... each of which needs to be processed into an actual process flow diagram. The process flow diagram defines the parameters of the process, the process material balances from feedstock to product, a heat balance, equipment size, etc. This process flow diagram, in turn, needs to be submitted to pvhramani for review and in turn published for a full review by all participating engineers. We will go over the diagram with a fine toothed comb, to check for errors in material balance, heat balance, equipment sizing, etc. After corrections, the process flow diagram will be distributed for the creation of a mechanical flow diagram...."

This writer now would call on honorable members to put in the brain work to arrive at a more detailed system/ process arrangement, based on the different inputs offered so far

[NOTE: In order that we get an approximate idea of the "commercial potentials", even if we consider just ONE product system alone – ENGINEERED PRODUCTS , each 1, 000 ha based set-up would turn out volumes valued over $20 million! The petrochemical products have not been valued here]

Thank you

pvhramani

pvhramani,

An excellent project outline for the pilot plant design. Am I correct in assuming the project title, then, is formally submitted to CR4 as the APIX Project? As soon as the CR4 administration provides us with the GLOG approval, I am sure we can recruit the design team with you as the principle engineer and project leader. I suggest we recruit the following:

• One mechanical engineer/chemical engineer
• One electrical engineer
• One instrumentation engineer
• One civil engineer
• One Cad Technician with extensive experience in chemical plant/refinery design who might recruit additional drafting help as needed but not included as a member of the design team.

Including you, the total for this team will be six individuals and will need to be listed with their title

as the co-authors of this work. All of the team members will submit directly to you, Their submissions will include a bibliography of any contributers who provided assistance in the submission such that those who assisted receive proper credit. Please understand that I am excluding myself from this organization outline. I do not feel it is appropriate at this time, this is your project.

You have presented a very good project outline which serves as a basis for the Engineering Scope of Work. To complete the Scope of Work, you will need to present to the team an area of responsibility. Refer to the steps I gave and you quoted, process flow diagram, mechanical flow diagram, detail design, equipment specification, operation manuals and installation instructions, are responsibilities which need to be assigned and included in the scope of work.

After the Process Flow Diagram is completed and before the Mechanical Flow Diagram is begun, a preliminary Hazards Analysis should be conducted by the six member team. This can be done via the Internet with either e-mail or in a closed IRC network. I am an IRC Network Administrator and can assist you with setting up and conducting such a conference should you choose. In such a meeting, only the six principle team members can speak, but all other attendees can view the Analysis. Following the completion of the Mechanical Flow Diagram, another Hazard Analysis will be conducted and all problems will be resolved before the detailed design is begun. A final Hazards review will be conduced after the design is completed to assure that all hazards are resolved and the design will function properly and safely.

The final step to complete before offering the plant design for publication is to review all manuals and instructions for accuracy and completion. Finally, the complete design package should be certified by a registered professional engineer. This is not a requirement, but does add credibility to the work. For all who are skeptical of this experiment, keep in mind, teh processes that will be engineered in this project are all long time, well know precesses on which there are no patents nor can they be patented. All the processes used are several hundred years old, if not a thousand year old. Bio-digestion and fermentation has been known for centuries.

Hi chtank ... Greetings and thank you for your superb assessment of what/ how we should go about in designing this APIX Pilot Plant Project. Yes! You have said it right! This is to be presented to Cr4 personnel as the APIX project.

Your statement: "Please understand that I am excluding myself from this organization outline. I do not feel it is appropriate at this time, this is your project." is highly disappointing and it is opined that YOU PLEASE MAKE IT INTO THIS AS THE GROUP LEADER. It may also be noted that although this writer is sufficiently experienced in various projects relating to Plastics/ Polymers/ Composites/ General Mechanical Engineering, the down-to-earth experience in Petrochemical systems and Chemical Engineering systems could only be termed rudimentary, and could never match the levels of experienced professionals. The very reason for these presentations to have been opened out is to COURT competent and experienced Engineers of your levels and caliber. Thus, even though the project has been initiated by this writer, YOUR EXPERIENCE AND LEADERSHIP WILL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT NEED TO BRING THIS PROJECT TO FRUITION.

Please (please), therefore, do reconsider your idea of "staying away" at this all important initial design/ development stage

Awaiting your definite acceptance of this INVITATION to LEAD,

and with Best Wishes

pvhramani

pvhramani,

I am sorry but due to my wife and my health and my other commitments, I am unable to take on any more responsibilities. I am, however, available for consultation. Since my retirement in 1998 at the age of 65, I have devoted my time to helping my wife recover from left knee replacement with right knee and foot surgery still pending. She has recently found to have Melanoma which is to be removed on Dec. 4. It is unknown at this time whether chemotherapy or radiation therapy will be required. As for me, I have been feeling the effects of aging, gradually losing my hair, my teeth, my sight, my hearing, and my mind.

I have seen but have lost the e-mail of at least one volunteer for you to check, a gentleman from China. I am hoping they will approach you with applications once the APIX Pilot Plant BLOG is established. Remember, I will be available to consult, just not able to take a active place on the team. However, it is clear to me that you are very capable and you will do just fine and the leader of the APIX project. Have faith in yourself but do not hesitate to ask me for help if you get stuck at any phase. Yes, I do have some experience with leading projects and my title at retirement testifies to the fact others felt I have the ability to lead. The title was as a "Principle Mechanical Designer" and was assigned to me by the Parson's Engineering Corporation, Power and Petrochemical Division (SIP). I am very proud of that title as it tells me, personally, that I had reached the top of my career.

I have a new link to give you, and a place to find yourself more talent to help you with your project: http://biopact.com/. You may want to contact these people for publishing your project as well. They are an international non-profit organization dedicated to bio-energy. I became interested in this site for this bit of information from Slashdot's mailing list: http://biopact.com/2007/11/fuelcell-energy-supplies-4-biogas-fuel.html. Notice that this fits nicely into a use for your bio-fuels products and dovetails nicely into My Earthbound Space Station project, too.

I did do a google search and found your profile:

http://forums.autobodyonline.com/index.php?t=usrinfo&id=1880&rid=&S=895445191bbd6f614cde21f7e6c568a5
It is a shame you have not posted a complete profile so we can know you better. I do see you are a photographer, too, and do have some nice pictures posted. With your 15 years of experience and as a mechanical engineer, you are well qualified to lead your project.

I would suggest you contact member Shyam as he is also in India & has interest in such projects.

Chtank was refering to CNPower who was offering to help on the

http://cr4.globalspec.com/member?u=2082 discussion

From my read of what is on the thread, I again reiterate that pvhramani is right to focus on the Agricultural potential of known machines and systems and products.

I looked at the tonnage numbers and wondered how many people each Agricultural System would support.

Say for the ideal Banana Plantation, how many people would be supported by how much land selling all of the production?

This would be for me an interesting figure.

When actually dealing with the world you do need to figure in the inefficiencies.

Transportation is not uniform.

Demand is not uniform.

Why sell Ice to Eskimos?, for instance.

The problems are really not as great as they might seem. It is odd that there are as limited a number of commonly human cultivated and used crops. However in your systems case the number is an advantage.

There may be other considerations

Economy of scale come into play

You have to be able to keep equiptment running nearly round the clock to maximize return on investment.

The citrus industry matchs the ripening of the fruit to the processors ability to package & ship.

In my area there are smaller #'s of processors running larger quantities of fruit, nuts & produce per employee due to increased automation. What used to take 100 inspectors now require's only 5-10.

In this area clippings from orchards, vineyards, rice stubble & various ag waste was burned. declining air quality has caused this practice to be banned.

This coupled with The rising price of oil & wood products works in the favor of this sort of project!

Hi all! The different discussions seem to have now culminated into some sort of basic understanding of the APIX project - to be begun in the form of a Pilot Plant that would process about one-tenth the agro-renewable resources available in a thousand ha area. On the basis of the interactions we have had so far, this writer wishes to clarify certain FUNDAMENTALS, which need to be considered:

1. An APIX plant could be set up in any rural area, irrespective of whether there is any specific agriculture operation or not. For, in any rural surroundings there are various vegetation systems specific to the local environment/ ecology. And in many developing nations (both in Asia and Africa) there would also be "tiny" farm set up systems owned by local farmer groups - usually owning average land areas of about 2 to 3 ha per individual in a group that may have 20 to 50 farmers.

2. That being so, the input agro-resources are NOT restricted to the farm agrowastes alone, but would also consider ALL the surrounding systems of grasses, weeds, shrubs ... many of which may not even be codified or classified. This method of resource procurement would not only be helpful to the APIX plant but also to the local community - the community getting value for resources that have never even been considered of any value at all. In this, we NEED to look at a process that takes care of continual resource generation, through appropriate "non-destructive" type of resources procurement.

3. The project does not consider OWNING land as a requirement, as the different farmer groups who own land and farmlands would supply the required inputs, getting value for the "wastes" in turn.

4. The final APIX process plant to be designed and made ready is NOT for individual farmers (except those who own hundreds of ha of land/ farm works) but would have to be for a whole community. The present idea is that APIX plants would be finally developed to process the resources in a thousand ha area (which could be considered within a square of 3.163km x 3.163 km)

5. The processes - Food Processing, Fiber converted Engineered products manufacture, Anaerobic processes, Biorefinery processes, Energy conversion processes - are to be worked out in an INTEGRATED and INTER-RELATED cycle/ loop. In certain areas where the fiber systems are available more, the production of engineered products would be at higher levels.

6. The Project Development would proceed in the following stages:

• Stage I: Design of Pilot Plant
• Stage II: Practical Construction and running the Pilot Plant
• Stage III: Designing the "full-scale" plant based on one thousand ha resource systems
• Final Commercialization

7. As chtank had indicated, the works involved in these would need Documentation, Safety Checks, Professional Certifications ... and the like.

8. It is to be recognized and appreciated that this project Pilot Plant design, followed by all other engineering involvements, will not be one restricted to any specific region/ country, but this would be a generalized "universal" system that could be modified at the final construction stage, to suit appropriate specific local needs. Thus, all these INITIAL works would be done and carried forward, through the OPEN SOURCE system such as the ones being followed in software developments (LINUX, UBUNTU, etc). Such an Open Source system has never been brought out (to the knowledge of this writer) in engineering/ technology and manufacturing.

9. This OPEN SOURCE APIX PROJECT, as pointed out by chtank, would have Copy Rights vested with CR4, giving appropriate CREDITS and other considerations to all of us who are involved from inception here, at the time of COMMERCIALIZATION, which would call for our involvement in the physical implementation of projects commissioned by entrepreneurs.

10. May this writer request the honorable members now to VOLUNTEER in fructifying this project, in whatever manner each person deems fit?

With best wishes and further wishing that these initial discussions and interactions would soon take us to the NEXT step and the First Stage of Pilot Plant design

Thank you

pvhramani

Following this thread with interest and with a business development focus. Farming and development co-operatives may be the natural partners to pilot this project where it is needed (Asia,Africa, Latin America) -

many co-ops realise that the social and environmental pressures that prompted their formation 150 years ago (rocks in the coal, chalk in the flour ) are recurring - (with CO2 in the atmosphere).

There is a feeding frenzy for carbon saving projects that deliver CERs (carbon emission reductions) that are tradeable so if significant carbon savings are possible and can be aggregated, the pilot could access start up funding. Think of carbon as just another commodity - like the bananas, the bio bricks, the biogas or biofuel - giving the farmer another sustainable income source.

happy to help.

Hi Rick

Greetings from pvhramani!

Please visit this:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blog/97/APIX-Pilot-Plant-Design-Project-Recycling-Wastes

A few of us have already formed a Group, to begin actions in our Project that would involve Sustainable development, starting with any form of agriculture or any village farmland, and attempt to convert every available renewable resource, without destroying the environment, into engineering materials, energy, alternate petrochemicals and biofertilizers. People interested in these activities are welcome to contribute what they could. The said project is an Open Forum/ Open Source Engineering Project

Best wishes

pvhramani

Hi: I am not an engineer, but am very interested in appropriate, scaled, and distributed energy. In avoiding monopolies, nuclear waste etc. I recommend freeenergynews.com as a resource. Even though you are interested in using proven technology, solarfireproject.com offers three scaled designs for concentrating solar energy on to a target. If you need to make charcoal, or steam heat , or electricity,you might have use for these do it yourself designs. They can be made from scrap.

All the best,

Ron Wagner

Decatur, Illinois corn (maize country) USA.

Hi all

After a few days apparent lull, let us start the discussion threads in this subject of CONVERTING WASTES/ RECYCLING WASTES. As a first step, we would like to throw open the following general design data on one of our systems: THE BIOGAS SYSTEMS to convert wastes into Methane gas etc:

This system has to be standardized and designed. The following data would be useful too

We now look towards people who could come up with designs and process equipments...as needed

Foot-notes for the general design illustrations above:

BRIEF NOTE: The annual input of agrowastes would be 2, 500 tons (green weight). Estimated moisture content of original material is 70%. The sludge is prepared to re-adjust the moisture content such that 'solids" contents are within 10% to 15%. The "loading cycle" would be three days – that is, agrowastes would be loaded every three days, resulting in 121 "loadings' per annum. About 50% of the total weight (inclusive of moisture content) of these agrowastes is estimated to be of "fibrous" nature. Thus, 1, 250 Kg of "green fibers" are separated at each crushing. Each "batch loading" into the Biogas Generator would involve a total of approximately 10.5 tons of agrowastes, which would be "pre-processed" and loaded in smaller volumes over a period of 24 hours, with loadings done every hour. Thus, each loading volume per batch would be 438 kg. The chamber would be designed to hold ten batch loadings = 105 tons. The basic process involves crushing/ pulping of agrowastes and the squeezed out sludge liquid is combined with water to proportion the solids content. This sludge is further combined with a small , but, specific quantity of cow dung/ horse dung, and pumped into the Biogas generator that has three chambers. The pH is kept at about 8 to 8.5, by adding organic soap water. As explained through the illustration, the retention period for the continually moving sludge matter is 30 days.

The illustration in Figure 2 is being shown to present certain aspects of input/ output data. Further, it is also shown that the original biogas with various "impurities (such as CO2, H2S, and amines) could be purified to a level of 99%; the other materials would also become useful chemicals, when separated out from the mixture. It is estimated that the Pilot Plant as in Figure 1 would be able to finally generate a "continuous load" power of about 50 KW (a plant that could work at this "peak level" all the 365 days, 24 hours)

hello sir,this is abcd1einstein i studied briefly now.Your data combined with neat diagrams is very interesting.

My doubt is please explain me WHAT DOES THE QUESTION MEAN?

Hello friend, alberteinstein!

1. The question(s) pertain to the high extravagance of all human activities; be it agriculture, water utilization, energy conversions and uses, materials and resource utilization.... the list would go on... all of which culminate in indiscriminate consumption, "snatching away" and closing any possibility of "equitable" distribution of materials and energy resources

2. If you have carefully studied the various threads in the discussions above, you would have noted that we have attempted a systematic and step-by-step synthesis and analysis of at least the different Agro-resources wastes; and we also have attempted to arrive at certain RECYCLING and modified utilizations of the so-called wastes ... all of which seem to be at a whopping 90+% level!

3. It is also suggested that you may please look at the following blog-discussions/ threads:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/4149/APIX-Pilot-Plant-Design-Project-Recycling-Wastes-Mission-and-Goals#coments

Hope your "doubts" get cleared by carefully reading through the details as mentioned.

Please feel free to enquire about any further SPECIFIC matters

Best wishes

pvhramani