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Impeller Blades

10/30/2008 1:24 AM

Why do impellers have backward-curved blades?

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#1

Re: IMPELLER

10/30/2008 3:49 AM

I assume we are talking about a centrifugal compressor impeller. You really need to be more specific, this is a very complex subject.

Very simplistically back-swept blading has

  • reduced work input for set tip speed and reduced Mach number at the impeller for specific work input.
  • improved stability because of a nice pressure rise characteristic.
  • peak efficiency is away from surge whereas for a radial impeller it is too close to surge.
  • Better blade loading with less losses.

Sure I missed something or got something not quite right but thanks anyway to R.L. Elder - CIT

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: IMPELLER

10/31/2008 1:03 AM

yep, learned all that at uni too

took a few years though before I figured out what it meant...

In essence for the simple chaps, you can angle the blade three ways forward, straight or backward. Refering only to the radial blading not the inducer section in the middle)

In short as per the liquid pump the idea is to make the flow radial and at constant pressure, however as the mass tends to load toward the rear blade in each passage curling the blade forward provides a means of raising the pressure inside the wheel or in the case of your rear facing blades increasing the exit velocity in exchange for exit pressure. both of those example are in reference to the same wheel with straight blades. As the learned Prof said, the pressure rise occurs in the diffuser or volute space as th gas slows down in your standard teaching view, however in some applications such as gas turbines the heat released in that process wastes the energy you just put into the gas, so they design the passage to increase the velocity at constant pressure and therefore raise the energy without temperature loss to the surrounding components. In gas turbines there is a second benefit of giving a higher inlet velocity to the turbine

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#5
In reply to #1

Re: IMPELLER

10/31/2008 8:26 AM

I too have some questions to ask about this.

  • Doesn't the arched vane not only increase the the pressure but also the vacuum at the inlet?
  • Doesn't the inner end of the vane is placed on the rotating table in an angle so that it seems to leads the outer end of the vane? (Meaning that the back or concave side of the vane has a cavity that at forward motion creates a vacuum?)
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#6
In reply to #5

Re: IMPELLER

10/31/2008 8:42 AM

Hello Isti80:

Just to say.....................I could not AGREE more on your Signature, and 'Political Correctness!

Maybe if there was a little less Political Correctness'', there would be less kids running around knifing people etc.

When we did anything wrong, any of my neighbours were free to say what they thought and just shout at us if they had to, but, it worked, and got things done! And stopped potentially dangerous things happening. Whay they would call 'Anti-Social' things I guess you could say?

Thats my view anyway.

Take care.................

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: IMPELLER

10/31/2008 9:48 AM

Thanks babybear.

I actually meant it more for adults than kids. Adults who already grew up like today's kids (Spoiled brats?) and obviously they can hardly behave any better than their children, if at all.

(I too used to be reprimanded all the time: on the way to school, at school, on the way home from school, at home and so on.)

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: IMPELLER

10/31/2008 2:38 PM

Hello Isti80:

Think I know what you mean. I get kinda fed up when friends and just general parents these day, do not have any idea how to raise kids. Always blaming the child's poor behaviour on television, or, there is no where to do anything, no where to do this and that, you know? I was pretty poor when I was young and, our playground was the local woods. Making bow and arrows, camps swings etc. I never had any toys other than a ball and tennis racket.

Seems odd, that in real terms todays kids have so much but not only expect more but, are so blo-dy rude. I am not saying all kids but the ones who have computers, game-boys, their own TV and two or three Mobil phones. You know the thing?

My godson who I have disowned now for his rudeness, at 8 years old, when his Dad was at work his Mum just refused to say anything when he was f-ing and blinding at me because I might have said what he was doing was wrong? The worst thing was when his Mum would talk about him when he was watching and listening. So she may say, "I can't stop him from going out at midnight and I can't tell him what to do. His Dad will tell him when he gets home. Of course by then after his Dads night shift all was forgotten. He is 16 now and I have seen him twice since he was 8. But, when a boy spits in my face and scratches my face as well, and his Mother stands there and laughs..........Well. I think you get my drift.

Take care...........

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: IMPELLER

11/01/2008 1:02 PM

Hi babybear,

Good on ya, dumping that spoiled brat.

Wonder what the mother's reaction was? I think she probably couldn't care less anyway.

I came up with my current signature after some discussions I used to have and I could notice how sometimes people (males) become occasionally reluctant to say what's on their mind.

Yet, the very essence of democracy is to be able to voice yourself but, due to this damn expression 'political correctness' is under mining the freedom of speech.

Maybe this 'political correctness' is a remanence of the senior Bush government's commitment, when at the end of the cold war they said, we should utilise the best of both systems, as neither were perfect.

With this expression, political correctness, you can shut and trivialise good people and things in order to give way to fools and crooks to praise and profile themselves.

This can include a lot of people in any society, from top politicians down to the last s...g, which make up the majority again in any society.

Of course some societies (the more politically correct ones) practise it with more care so their citizens do not notice it, least of all during an election campaign. While in the other camp there's no worries because oppression's the way...I hope you understand what I really mean!!!

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#15
In reply to #14

Re: IMPELLER

11/01/2008 3:34 PM

Hello Isti80:

no worries, I fully understand your point!

And, the only reason she was not pleased I was not around her and her son any more, was because I was their 'Taxi'. The husband worked permanent night-shift and after 18:00 I was their only means of transport! He would not dare to speak to me the way he did in front of his Mum, .......IF his Father was there. He would get a right clip round the ear for sure! You could tell his attitude was changing as if you had flipped a switch. One minute it would be all nice and 'smarmy'. Then, when his Dad was out of the way the 'true' person came through. IE. The horrible one. And the way his Mum was around him and the way he was able to talk to her and push her around, was all her own doing! She would even shout at her husband if he told his son (my godson) off! He is still a bar-ta-d. But he is so thin he always loses in fights. He is the apple of his Mums eye. And he is going to grow up very quickly indeed when he leaves school!.

Thanks for getting back to me.

Take care..........

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#8
In reply to #5

Re: IMPELLER

10/31/2008 11:26 AM

The term "Political correctness" is clearly an "oxymoron". you know like "Navel Intelegence" Etc.

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#13
In reply to #8

Re: IMPELLER

11/01/2008 9:40 AM

Hello Toomuchfun:

you are correct (politically?), to say it is an oxymoron of course. Sorry for the pun.

However, I was not the one to 'coin' the phrase!

Take care.

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#2

Re: Impeller Blades

10/31/2008 12:01 AM

Or are we talking about ordinary centrifugal water pumps?

OK, I had trouble with compressible flow in college; so let's talk something I understand, water pumps.

In a pump liquid is drawn in near the center and the fast turning impeller delivers mechanical kinetic energy to get the liquid moving fast in the direction the blades are turning. The liquid also has a much slower relative movement outward. As it does so it's gaining in this velocity energy. Note also that the blades capture the liquid and move it along at near the rotational velocity

The liquid leaves the impeller OD and enters the outer casing of the pump (called the diffuser)where it slows down and converts most of its velocity energy to pressure energy before it passes into the discharge pipe.

Now, remember that you don't want the liquid to flow into the casing any faster than necessary because too fast will mean too much loss of efficiency due to friction and turbulence. So the direction of flow into the casing (if you're standing on the casing watching the flow) will be mostly radial but with a little slant toward the discharge opening of the casing.

But wait!! The liquid is trying to follow blades that are moving tangentially at almost right angles to the direction you want it to flow (almost radially outward). So how do you get the liquid to not have most of its velocity energy pointing in an almost useless direction? By slanting the vanes backwards so that the liquid flowing outward is going in almost the opposite direction as the vane rotation and the net outward flow velocity relative to the casing of the pump is minimized to just what you need for efficient diffusion (building of pressure) and flow out through the pump discharge.

Now I could say this in the abstract notation of vector diagrams; but I fear a lot of eyes would quickly glaze over.

Or I could just say that the backward curved vanes counteract the forward movement of the rotating impeller so the liquid flows out very close to radially to maximize pump efficiency.

I guess I like the short answer…… To quote the Prof: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (A.E.)"

Ed Weldon

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#4

Re: Impeller Blades

10/31/2008 7:07 AM

Hello babumechanical:

I have always thought the backwards pointing/slanting blades of an Impeller, were designed to allow the air or water to flow off the blade more efficiently, and not act as a 'brake'?

Just my idea. May not be right, but as a car has an up-turned rear to break the airflow and make the air-flow coefficient better, so the blades facing backs do the same thing. Not very well explained, but I have always thought that. I am open to any other 'real knowledge' though!

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#9

Re: Impeller Blades

10/31/2008 2:04 PM

They are not backward. They are supposed to be that way, it is your pre-conceived notion of which way they should curve that is backward

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Impeller Blades

10/31/2008 2:41 PM

Hello Guest,

whatever........

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#12

Re: Impeller Blades

11/01/2008 4:19 AM

Not realy what you want to hear, but the impellorbades curved backwards of an outboard motor do not get caught in the kelp where I fish for crayfish.....eccept the simple impellors of the old "seagull" outboard engines which wind up the kelp around the shaft!

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#16
In reply to #12

Re: Impeller Blades

11/01/2008 3:46 PM

Hello Juriedekock@telkomsa.net:

I had the same problem with my Seagull! I was actually thinking more of enclosed pump blades rather than 'open' blades as you discribe.

Take care........

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#17

Re: Impeller Blades

11/02/2008 9:17 PM

Hi babumechanical,

Backward and forward curved blades of centrifugal fan impellers have different performance characterisitics.
If you look at the velocity vector diagrams.
For the same tip velocity(Vb), they produce different air velocity (Va).
Vab is air velocity relative to the blade.

The effect on fan performance is shown in the different performace curves.

The forward curved type, often referred to as squirrel cage blowers basically run slower than the other types of centrifugal fans and are the quietest in operation.The forward curved (and radial) impellers use higher horsepower at low resistance than other types of impellers, and the least amount of horsepower at the higher pressures and low flows.

The backward curved type of centrifugal fan performance characteristic curve shows that for increasing delivery volume, they startout at a lower horsepower, rise to a peak on the horsepower curve near the point of highest efficiency on the fan performance curve and then drop off again.

Hoping this may help,

AussieBob

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Anonymous Poster (2); AussieBob (1); babybear (7); Ed Weldon (1); Isti80 (3); jurie sa (1); The Prof (1); Toomuchfun (1)

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