Combustion power of Hydrogen versus gasoline

I do not have my figures in hand, but my original studies showed the fuel value of hydrogen vs gasoline to be as follows: it would take 23 tanker trucks of hydrogen to give you the same miles as a single tanker truck of gasoline.

The engineers and you are frustrated because you are talking cubic feet (volume) and what you really ought to be using is mass.

Sorry i can't give you more info, but my files are "uhh-lost" as my wife is helping me sort my office which as just accumulated for past 10.3 years...

I think that uhh, Blink, had some informative posts on this subject. need to search cr 4

milo

Try this:

http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/2338

Also anything you can find on the subject by blink. You can take his posts to the bank.

milo

Thank you. I realize the energy density of hydrogen is very low compared to gasoline. .24 mj/l versus .02 mj/l. The issue is explosive power. It eludes me. As an engineer and a student and believer in the laws of thermodynamics, I still believe there is more to Hydrogen than we understand. Just adding it to fuel as an additive does such marvelous things such as helping it completly combust the gas or diesel and eliminating emissions is a great start for our environment. Now let us add more and dial back the fossil fuel and replace some with hydrogen for a new begining. Last week, Energy sec. Steven Chu killed all research funding for hydrogen cars. WOW!

He did the math.

I'm yet to see the marvelous things that are claimed.

Claims yes. performance data- no.

I've visited Canadian fuel cell research center. This is NOT going to be the answer. for cars.

milo

Have a look at the following site, it offers a wide range of technical explanations including Hydrogen (both contained and on-demand).

http://www.tinaja.com/h2gas01.asp

Don knows his stuff.

The first thing to do is to convert everything to energy-per-unit-mass units. One cannot compare a gallon of gasoline to a cubic metre of hydrogen, because a cubic metre of hydrogen's mass will vary with the storage pressure. For that matter, the constituents of gasoline vary, too, with blend.

Think of hydrogen as an energy carrier, rather like electricity, than an energy source.

Consider various methods of storage for road vehicles: liquid gasoline and diesel fuel, compressed hydrogen gas, hig-density battery energy storage, metal hydrides, ultra-high-speed flywheels, etc., and obtain an energy storage value per unit of gross vehicle weight, and also a power-to-weight value for each system. Then one is in a better position to compare 'apples with apples', instead of 'apples with oranges', so to speak.

The biggest thing to overcome is the unspoken constraint to continue to use the internal combustion engine as a power plant for road vehicle propulsion. That assumption may not be valid, perhaps?

I completely understand and have a good grasp of hydrogen as an enery carrier and agree 100%. It is just that so many colleagues keep pounding the desk claiming that HHO or Hydrogen has magical properties that appear to have been vetted. i am looking for someone with real proof or a deeper understanding. I suppose being limited as a material science engineer having developed a hydrogen reactor to cotrol the reaction of splitting water with aluminum has become a curse. Purdue developed an internally catalyzed alloy that will produce hydrogen when exposed to water alone. fabulous. It will work great with our reactor. The haunting question still lies on the table. I may just have to accept my own beliefs in traditional science for now and be surprised one day.

Thank you for the comments

You may find this blog by CR4 MaSu interesting.

Regards JD.

JD, Been through the entire blog by Masu and have a complete understanding of the science and agree. I was looking for something out of the box that probably does not exist. So I will share some recent developments, proprietary as they may be. Using Aluminum which has a greater energy density than coal and IS renewable, we have proven the cost of electricity down to 9 cents per KWH. The system does not require the storage of hydrogen as we all agree that it will find its way out of any available material today. At the very least it will cause hydrogen embrittlement for most steel. If we are ever to put it on the road, fuel cell technology must become more reliable and affordable and storage must become realistic. If we use our reactor, we will need a sterling engine to take advantage of the exothermic recation. No problem for stand alone power generation.

Thanks again. Unless someone has a brilliant revalation, I will stick to what we all know to be true. Did not want appear to be a rookie with the question. Sorry, I should have phrased it better.

Check this report out for hydrogen engines. It is a fairly well written primer for the hydrogen ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) with some reasonably good explanations.

Hydrogen is limited by volumetric displacement of air and surface ignition tendency. That is why many researchers hit a practical limit of 60% torque relative to gasoline. Direct injection (late cycle) and turbocharging can give you much better results.

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Hydrogen%20use%20in%20internal%20combustion%20engines.pdf

see figure 3-3.

thanks for the reply although the image did not load for some reason. Please send to joe@ w3ig.net if you have the time. It would be greatly appreciated. The report was very helpful!

I used to believe in Hydrogen - fuel of the future,
but practicalities determine otherwise.

Now, I have more faith in sodium/ceramic batteries and
their development. (link supplied in previous thread)

Apparently they have 20-40kva batteries now, soon to
go into production, and this will revolutionise transport
and home power. Forget H - the futures in batteries.
(supplied from renew-ables of course, wind tidal sun, etc.)

jt.

For what it is worth, the only solid element more abundant on the planet than Si is Al It is easily processed into aluminum and had a higher energy density than coal. Using it to split water to make hydrogen is a simple process and can now be used on demand. Not as an electrolysis device producing 2h2 02[what the non-scientist call HHO], but as an on board process or stand alone generation, using an Al alloy. This technology is not years into the future. We possess this technology and hope to release it by 2010 for various applications. cars are last on the list if ever.

Battery technology is still decades away. The best the industry has to offer for cost and reliability is the old stand by lead acid battery. Granted we are making great progress and I applaud and pray for the them.

PEM fuel cell technology is still too fragile and too expensive. Solid oxide fuel cells show the most promise at the moment.

As a new user of this powerful forum, I want to thank all you gurus who have taken the time to read, research and assist. When I post in the future i know I will take greater care to be very specific and respect your time. I am humbled

Would you be willing to share with us the process by which Al is used to break the water molecule bond? Showing it as an equation would be very helpful.

Thank You.

Gavilan

H2 is dangerous because it has a very wide range of fuel/air mixtures at which it can ignite.

From memory the range is from 1 or 2% up to around 95%.

Practically no other fuel can ignite over such a wide range.

The disadvantage of H2 is that it is so light that a lot of volume is required to get a decent amount of energy when compared to hydrocarbons.

Many abundant materials will react with water to generate H2, but usually a considerable amount of electricity is needed to make the raw material in the first place.

An electrolytic cell is more efficient, especially if run at high pressure. This also makes storage of the resultant H2 easier as you generate at the pressure at which you want to store.

Certainly the engine manufacturers have done dynamo tests on this subject, but I dont know where to retrieve the data. or reports.

Sources of Hydrogen reports: Search the SAE website under papers. Ford and BMW have published very good material in the last 5 years.

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/

Search under Ford, BMW, hydrogen ... there are many good papers and summaries. Due to copyright, you can only see the abstract but papers can be purchased for $10 or so.

...few years later, but might be helpful... a car with 4L engine requires 4L of hydrogen/min to idle... a dry HHO cell (7plates 20"sq stainless brushed steel @ 12VAC/10Amps) makes 1L/min hydrogen...

I've made a mega cell and it does produce that amount...