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Electrolysis

06/15/2009 11:34 PM

my bos ask me to find out how much hydrogen and oxygen can be obtained from electrolysis process with 1 joule of energy. can anyone help me on this? is there any notes or anything i could refer regarding this subject? thanks...

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Guest
#1

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 1:15 AM

Are you after an experiment on how to achieve the best output for a given electrolysis concept, or are you after the maximum theoretical quantity of hydrogen and oxygen produced when using 1 Joule of energy to split them?

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#4
In reply to #1

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 2:33 AM

its the maximum theoretical quantity of hydrogen and oxygen produced using 1 joule of energy to split them..

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#2

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 1:22 AM

Homework?

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#7
In reply to #2

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 9:45 AM

Hmmm, do they call the teacher "boss" too?

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Guest
#16
In reply to #2

Re: electrolysis

06/17/2009 7:40 AM

Of course

Guest
#3

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 1:40 AM

It all depends on the atmospheric conditions and temperature of the water... Also, would this be contained (enclosed) and at what amperage and voltage would the current be dispesed through the water?

Someone mayhave notes on an experiment, but that's what the fuel cell gurus think they are working on. I have a (working) patent that covers a device that makes this an easy process, but we cannot cover it here and now.

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#5

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 3:05 AM

There is a good article on electrolysis in Wikipedia.

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#6

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 7:52 AM

Here's a link to Wiki that gives the combustion energy of hydrogen in J/mole. Use that ratio to find how many moles would give you 1. J and then run the calculation backwards.

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: electrolysis

06/16/2009 10:43 PM

Perhaps its my own ignorance, but I don't see how the combustion energy of hydrogen has any relevance whatsoever. You need the 'bond energy' of water -> http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/B/BondEnergy.html

This gives the energy required to break the molecule into its hydrogen and oxygen components. It takes 246.8 kJ to break 1 mol of water into its respective constituents.

hope that helps

dave

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: electrolysis

06/17/2009 3:24 AM

And the same amount of energy is released upon combustion!

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: electrolysis

06/17/2009 7:16 AM

That's an interesting question. The two numbers are different. At first glance, it looks like you can disassociate water into hydrogen and oxygen and then recombine the two at a higher energy. This means ....OVER-UNITY! We're rich, we're ric...so what's wrong here? Why the difference?

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#18
In reply to #14

Re: electrolysis

06/17/2009 10:34 AM

It's true. I'm surprised that the overunity folks aren't all over this, but the Faraday equation (based only on the number of electrons required to achieve hydrolysis) does indicate about a 20% higher theoretical production of O2 and H2 than would be allowed by energy balance based on heat of combustion.

However, this would require that the reaction be exdothermic, pulling heat from the environment. This is not possible in the real world.

Too lazy to do the math right now, but if you want to see it, let me know.

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#22
In reply to #18

Re: electrolysis

06/17/2009 11:32 AM

Sorry, that should be endothermic, not "exdothermic". Doh!

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#21
In reply to #6

Re: electrolysis

06/17/2009 11:25 AM

Theoretically, the combustion energy can be lower than the minimum electrolysis energy (due to secondary loss processes). I'm not certain whether this would apply to electrolysis of water.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: electrolysis

06/17/2009 11:44 AM

Yes, but this is the other way round?

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#8

Re: Electrolysis

06/16/2009 10:40 PM

As this is a straightforward calculation you can find the answer (or calculation procedure) in any text on electrochemistry. Go to a library.

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#10

Re: Electrolysis

06/16/2009 11:38 PM

Need to have a starting solution of something to split in the first place. Electrolysis of what exactly?

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#12
In reply to #10

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 3:20 AM

He mentioned: "hydrogen and oxygen can be obtained from electrolysis".

Whatever is made of Hydrogen and Oxygen, of course.

Jon

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#11

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 2:02 AM

A joule equals one watt-second—i.e., the energy released in one second by a current of one ampere through a resistance of one ohm. That sounds like one Volt. 1 amp through 1 ohm can't be done in water. There has to be about 1.5 Volts to ionize the water. I found this very basic experiment that may entertain some folks and may give a clue to the answer to the question.

Electrolysis: Obtaining hydrogen from water: The Basis for a Solar-Hydrogen Economy.

This project involves an experiment in electrochemistry that illustrates several important energy related processes.

Introduction to Electrolysis: Hydrogen from Water

The process by which we generate hydrogen (and oxygen) from water is called electrolysis. The word "lysis" means to dissolve or break apart, so the word "electrolysis" literally means to break something apart (in this case water) using electricity.

Electrolysis is very simple - all you have to do is arrange for electricity to pass through some water between to electrodes placed in the water. Its as simple as that! The principle of electrolysis was first formulated by Michael Faraday in 1820.

Materials you will need

1. A DC power source with a Voltage greater than 1.5 volts or it wont work in tap water.

2. Two pencils. I like to expose a length of the big flat carpenter's pencils. (I used to salvage those big carbon rods from the big No. 6 Dry Cells and clean the nasty stuff off of them. The big carbon rod in the center had screw terminals on them.)

3. Two pieces of electrical wire to connect the power source to the graphite by wrapping or clampin gently on the graphite.

4. A jar full of tap water.

5. An insulated holder for the pencils. A small piece of cardboard to poke them through will do.

6. Tape, electrical or masking if needed.

Tools you will need

1. A sharp blade for gently shaving the wood from the pencil ends

2. A tool for removing insulation from the wire ends. (wire strippers or whatever, if the wires are insulated.)

Procedure

1. Remove the erasers and their metal sleeves if there are any.

2. Remove the wood from the ends of both pencils. (I like those flat carpenter's pencils because I get more surface.)

3. Fill the glass container with water.

4. Attach wires to the DC voltage source, and the other ends to the tips of the pencils. It is important to make good contact with the graphite in the pencils.

5. Punch small holes in the cardboard, and push the pencils through the holes or use some other holding devices.

6. Place the exposed tips of the pencils in the water, such that the tips are fully submerged but are not touching each other or the bottom. I used insulated wire and sealed the connections and put them upside down under collection containers.

7. Turn onthe power source and wait for a minute or so: Small bubbles should soon form on the tips of the pencils. Hydrogen bubbles will form on one tip associated with the negative battery terminal - the cathode, and oxygen from the other.

Specific things you may observe:

Electrolysis does not depend intrinsically on the generation of heat although some may be produced. Therefore, it is not subject to a fundamental thermodynamic limitation on efficiency. Therefore, electrolysis can be (and is) performed at very high efficiencies close to 100%.

If you use a Voltage less than 1.5 volts, then it will be necessary to add an electrolyte, such as a salt, acid, or base, that will disassociate into charged ions and increase the flow of electrical current.

We use carbon (in the form of graphite) because it will not dissolve into the water under the influence of the electron current - the carbon is electrically neutral.

Advanced Experimentation

First make the following measurements carefully and simultaneously:

1. Collect the hydrogen produced using a container: The container should be initially filled with water and positioned over the negative electrode, with the open end submerged and the closed end pointing upwards (such that the container is completely filled with water at the start of the experiment). Run the experiment until the water level inside the container is full of gas and matches the water surface level. At this point the pressure of the hydrogen will equal ambient pressure. Stop the experiment when this level is reached.

2. Measure the current in amps: Do this by placing an ammeter in the circuit - read the meter during the experiment to get a good idea of the average current. I would cheat and use a constant current source.

3. Time the hydrogen production.

Calculate the volume of hydrogen produced at ambient pressure. Measure the volume of the container, Make sure your answer is expressed in cubic meters. For example, if you initially calculate the volume in cubic centimeters, divide your answer by 1 million.

Now calculate the theoretical (maximum) volume of the hydrogen produced, also in cubic meters, from the other data for the current and the time, using "Faraday's First Law":

Vtheoretical = (R I T t) / (F p z), where

R=8.314 Joule/(mol Kelvin),

I = current in amps,

T is the temperature in Kelvins (273 + Celsius temperature),

t = time in seconds,

F = Faraday's constant = 96485 Coulombs per mol,

p = ambient pressure = about 1 x 105 pascals (one pascal = 1 Joule/meter3),

z = number of "excess" electrons = 2 (for hydrogen, H2), 4 (if you're measuring oxygen production instead).

Finally, calculate the efficiency by comparing the volume produced to the theoretical maximum volume: Efficiency (in %) = 100 x Vproduced / Vtheoretical .

How Does it Work?

The chemical equation for electrolysis is:

energy (electricity) + 2 H2O -> O2 + 2 H2 .

At the cathode (the negative electrode), there is a negative charge created by the battery. This means that there is an electrical pressure to push electrons into the water at this end. At the anode (the positive electrode), there is a positive charge, so that electrode would like to absorb electrons. But the water isn't a very good conductor. Instead, in order for there to be a flow of charge all the way around the circuit, water molecules near the cathode are split up into a positively charged hydrogen ion, which is symbolized as H+ in the diagram above (this is just the hydrogen atom without its electron, i.e. the nucleus of the hydrogen atom, which is just a single proton), and a negatively charged "hydroxide" ion, symbolized OH-:

H2O -> H+ + OH- .

You might have expected that H2O would break up into an H and an OH (the same atoms but with neutral charges) instead, but this doesn't happen because the oxygen atom more strongly attracts the electron from the H - it steals it (we say the oxygen atom is more "electronegative" than hydrogen). This theft allows the resulting hydroxide ion to have a completely filled outer shell, making it more stable.

But the H+, which is just a naked proton, is now free to pick up an electron (symbolized e-) from the cathode, which is trying hard to donate electrons, and become a regular, neutral hydrogen atom:

H+ + e- -> H

This hydrogen atom meets another hydrogen atom and forms a hydrogen gas molecule:

H + H -> H2,

and this molecule bubbles to the surface, and voila, we have hydrogen gas!

Meanwhile, the positive anode has caused the negatively charged hydroxide ion (OH-) to travel across the container to the anode. When it gets to the anode, the anode removes the extra electron that the hydroxide stole from the hydrogen atom earlier, and the hydroxide ion then recombines with three other hydroxide molecules to form 1 molecule of oxygen and 2 molecules of water:

4 OH- _> O2 + 2 H2O + 4e-

The oxygen molecule is very stable, and bubbles to the surface.

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#15
In reply to #11

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 7:28 AM

Since I'm a little bit on the lazy side, what per cent efficiency did you obtain? And, how many joules was required to produce 1 cubic meter of hydrogen at standard temperature and pressure?

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#19
In reply to #15

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 11:16 AM

Papadoc,

Let the experimenter figure out the efficiency and joules. I understand that it takes a lot of joules to get a small amount of separation.

I just enjoy using my battery charger, carbon rods, a little salt in my tap water, little containers to capture gases, making the popping sound when igniting the hydrogen and seeing an extinguished match with a little glow burst into flame when put into the oxygen. That's about all the experiment is good for unless you want to make your own Thyratron.

Jon

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#27
In reply to #19

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 2:27 PM

Well, I guess I'll just have to do the experiment myself. I hope I can get measureable results. Also, I hope I don't blow up anything. With some of my "tests", I've started a few fires. I hide them the best I can but sometimes my wife finds out and, of course, I've got to put up with a bunch of S---. That's life. No guts, no glory.

HAVE SOME FUN TODAY,

PAPADOC

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 4:24 PM

It can be relatively safe if you allow the hydrogen to escape and just measure the oxygen (assuming that you then vent that outdoors away from highly flammable material)
In the same vein, just don't try putting anything too flammable in the container of oxygen.

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 6:17 PM

I know what you mean. Been there, done that.

Jon

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#17
In reply to #11

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 7:43 AM

Great...go ahead and solve their homeworks... then everybody will be fascinated about how quickly the nowadays kids turn into irrecuperable morons.

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#20
In reply to #17

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 11:19 AM

Too late.

Their families and peers have beat me to it.

Jon

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#24
In reply to #11

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 11:52 AM

Only nit-picking, but isn't the theoretical value for the potential closer to 1.23-Volts? I believe you can get within a few mV of this if you are patient enough (but I suspect you would need something like a further 10-mV for leakage currents to become truly negligible).

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 12:04 PM

"Closer to 1.23-Volts"

Yes. It is good to stay above thresholds.

Someone may use a NiCad instead of an Alkaline cell and get dissapointed.

Jon

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#25

Re: Electrolysis

06/17/2009 12:01 PM

%%#$@!!

OK, I'll bend over and everybody on this thread can take a good kick. When will I learn to not trust WIKI? It wasn't wrong, just not clear.

The value of 240 kJ/mole is the lower heat value, 280 kJ/mole is the higher heat value. So, if you actually want to compute the electrolysis of water value, I think the HHV is the correct one.

And, shame on chemistry books for not keeping track of heat.

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#30

Re: Electrolysis

06/18/2009 2:23 PM

this is all really cool but is there a simple method to separating the two gasses and storing them in a pressurized container, w/o blowing up my garage?

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Electrolysis

06/18/2009 6:49 PM

I was waiting for this opportunity, I watched the Apollo moon shot on PBS the other night, ...

When an Apollo flight was on the launch pad 3 astronauts died in a pure oxygen fire; on a moon lander flight when ground control asked them to stir the device that made oxygen, it blew the side out of the capsule enroute to the moon; the Russians had an earlier experience that 123 lives were lost in an oxygen fire when they got in a hurry trying to launch.

How much oxygen did you want to store ? About a lifetime's worth ?

There are "flashback suppressors" normally only used on the acetylene or propane hoses by welders, they can stop the flame traveling up the hose to the tank, but they may not put the flame out.

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