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Guru
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High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/16/2009 5:25 PM

Last weekend I was floating down the beautiful Clackamas River catching trout all along the way. One section of the float went under a large number of high Voltage lines coming from Bonneville Dam, Id say somewhere in the ballpark of 12-20 lines. It had been such a majestically quiet float til we went under the lines.

I don't have any experience with high voltage, and have been more or less sheltered from them. with the exception of a few hunting trips where I stumbled on a "high Voltage Freeway" or two.

We could hear them "humming/crackling/popping" from a ways off. As soon as we were nearly under them, my fellow fisherman and myself could "taste" and "smell" that the air was completely different under the lines. In addition to our taste and smell senses picking up on the field generated by the lines, our hair became "statically charged", and both our eyes were burning by the time we were clear of the field. It was a fairly strange and unique experience. We also noticed that the section of river under the lines was more or less void of any fish.

So, naturally, I'm a bit curious now about the field generated by a bunch of these lines, and how it may or may not be magnified from the body of water. I don't recall ever experiencing the same effects while simply walking under them while hunting. The scarcity of fish under the lines also has me a bit curious.

This is something that was never covered in my Electrical Tech Degree.

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#1

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/16/2009 5:45 PM

You were in the O-zone
Del

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/16/2009 6:39 PM

Phew... Glad we made it out alive.

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#10
In reply to #1

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 12:17 AM

Dear Del the cat

You are right. Due to corona discharges and accelerated in humid air to to reduced breakdown voltage and greater conductivity of the air, there will be a lot of Ozone and also active Nitrous Oxide and other N2 and O2 related ions. Ozone can easily eat neurons to not great to smell. Only 0.7ppm/L and one hour exposure permitted for industrial worker and this must be 100s of ppm I suppose. If one thinks that his/her brain to be cleaned of bad memories then perhaps a good place to go around. It may also increase risk of cancer if not directly cause it 100%. Overhead HT Lines are real bad things. Perhaps Electrical Engineers and Technicians have to live up with this. If statistical data is collected on such professionals then it will show reduced life span.

http://www.electric-fields.bris.ac.uk/PressRelease.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-113067903.html

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#18
In reply to #10

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 6:00 AM

Hi Del & Shyam

Let me through the cat amongst the pigeons! About 10 yrs ago I worked for a company that had a ozone generator manufacturing outfit that we did marketing for. Some observations: In three years I was associated to them not one person in the ozone shop had a single day off sick. One guy with skin cancer saw it disappear in 18 months. I had suffered with asthma all my life, first winter went down with pneumonia and within weeks of spending time in their office that stank of ozone my chest cleared completely, so much so I passed my flying medical with the best lung function test in 5 years. I have regularly treated koi with ozone as well. Makes you think???

What got me was all the negative anti ozone "research" I could find at the time was funded by......pharmaceutical companies. Ozone seems to kill just about all known harmful bacteria and every virus we know of......except that new Microsoft one called Vista. On fish and mammals the only criteria I have found is that they need to maintain a diet high in antioxidants to be protected form the "toxic" effects of Ozone. So eat your vegetables and let natures most powerful purifyer keep you heathy.

Let's hear what the Guru's have to tell us?

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#19
In reply to #18

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 6:20 AM

Yup, they are using ozone as a destainer/sanitizer in some laudries, the euipment is expensive but they save on liquid chemicals.
Del

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 7:07 AM

Just a P.S. to my post above:

Please note, I am NOT a fundi on OZONE so please throw in any good comment and corrections to my post. It will be most welcome.

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#21
In reply to #18

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 7:41 AM

Dear Bushdriver

I suggest that you read these reports from EPA NRC USA

http://www.epa.gov/03healthtraining/population.html

http://www.epa.gov/ttnnaaqs/standards/ozone/s_o3_cr_td.html

It is likely that ionized air can clean the dust in highly dusty and smoke filled area and you may find some advantage of ions in air. It is very unlikely that skin cancer will get cured through UV and perhaps only Germs causing ulcers can get cured as ozone kills Bacterial and Germs. Water purifiers use Ozone to kill Bacterial and Pathogens.

Chlorine, Active Oxygen and Ozone are health hazards. For many of these to show up health hazard may even take five years latency period but your probability to get into problem increases. Ozone holes are problems and not solutions.

HT power lines can do damage in more manners due to magnetic field exposure as well. One strong reason for keeping power distribution point away from civil population is just this one. It increases risk of cancer.

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#23
In reply to #21

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 9:38 AM

Good day Shyam

Thanks so much for the links, good info!

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#35
In reply to #10

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/19/2009 2:45 PM

Hello Shyam,

Some good points made especially with ref' to smell!

GA to you Sir.

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#17
In reply to #1

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 5:27 AM

GA.

the word brings to my mind other terms such as "event horizon", "ground zero"...

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#34
In reply to #1

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/19/2009 2:42 PM

Hello Del,

Good answer my friend, Short and sweet!

GA to you Sir.

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#3

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/17/2009 7:50 AM

What kind of boat were you in? Aluminum or fiberglass?

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/17/2009 11:29 AM

Inflatable... "Fish Hunter"

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#8
In reply to #4

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/17/2009 11:13 PM

Might have been a good thing you are in a rubber raft. As far as the fish go I remember watching a discovery special where they ran a strong electromagnetic field around the shark tank, which totally screwed up the shark's navigation.

Undoubtedly fish navigate the same way. Moral of the story I guess bad spot to go fishing, but you wouldn't have to worry about swimming and sharks.

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#5

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/17/2009 10:31 PM

Sounds to me like there might have been a fault in the lines. Humming may be normal, but crackling, popping and ozone indicate arcing to me...

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#13
In reply to #5

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 2:45 AM

Maybe it was having it's breakfast cereal?

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#26
In reply to #13

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 2:19 PM

mmmm... a little ozone and rice crispies

all part of a balanced breakfast!

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#6

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/17/2009 10:37 PM

Too bad you didn't have a big fluorescent light tube. You could hold it up and see it glow! Camp there and have a nite lite. High voltage lines create EM fields.

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#7

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/17/2009 11:03 PM

Arcing can be seen with the naked eye and would shut the lines down.

Corona discharge makes the snap, crackle, pop described. There is another instance of this where a 345kV transmission line crosses Interstate 90. There can be several reasons for this, conductor too small for the applied voltage, conductor spacing, broken strands on conductors, insulator problems, hardware problems, ...

When corona occurs it does create ozone, nitric acid in the presence of the moisture in the air, sound, light, a very little heat,...

The corona is the result of the electric field intensity changing the nitrogen in the air.

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#9

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 12:05 AM

now imagine if you were a cow with one of those stomach magnets. "Why's bessie always get so nervous around those power lines?"

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#11

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 2:32 AM

Hello RVZ,

Sounds to me from what I know, that maybe the line needed work done.

'Fishing' under these lines is probably not a good pass-time!

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#12

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 2:36 AM

Hello RVZ,

Sounds to me from what I know, that maybe the line needed work done.

'Fishing' under these lines is probably not a good pass-time!

As the first two posts say Del and Shyam (and others further on) it is ozone you are tasting. Weird stuff ozone.

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#25
In reply to #12

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 11:37 AM

Probably not good for baby bears. It may cause them to repeat themselves somewhat. So watch out while you are foraging.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 4:36 PM

Hello SG,

Sorry about that. Did not realise about the duplication. My hand sometimes jumps sometimes, and I had not known I had sent it. Also getting used to a new windows computer. Sorry once again.

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#14

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 3:31 AM

linemen experienced abnormal bone growth working on ht lines which led to the discovery of using magnetic coils around broken bones to accelerate healing of breaks & in the first experiment healed together a woman's arm that had been broken for about 20 years because her bones would not knit back together. it had been held together by a plate & screws but would not rejoin. the coils caused it to heal back together in a matter of weeks.

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#15

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 4:48 AM

Whilst walking alongside my daughter on a horse one frosty morning, we passed under High Tension wires. The hedgerow, covered in frost, was crackling loudly at that point. I have been meaning to return to the spot with a fluorescent tube to see if it strikes. I wouldn't advise anyone to live under power lines.

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#31
In reply to #15

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/19/2009 10:03 AM

In the Corona Technology Course www.corona-technology-course.com we have a picture of corona on corn tassels. The moisture content, and proximity to the power lines, i.e. the electrical field intensity at that point in space.

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#16

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 5:13 AM

must've been an electrifying experience, I must say... thank God nothing happened to you.

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#22

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 8:27 AM

Why do power lines Hum?

-

-

-

Because they don't know the words!

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#24

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 11:24 AM

I spent nine years of my young life working around high voltage power lines and substation. Because the job required us working in of the close proximity to live equipment we also became part of a study group of the effects of electrical low level radiation.

Other than becoming an electrical engineer, subscribing to this blog, and convincing my son to become an electrical engineer. I have suffered no ill effects of my past career.

PS Neither has the rest of the study group.

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#28
In reply to #24

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 4:52 PM

Hello GHOC,

Your post is interesting. So no ill results so far?

One of the videos I saw in my research showed the electron/volts, and tesla/doda's, today with the Magnetism around and directly under the lines, can't recall the proper name, were unbelievably high.

There was factories and I think also housing under the lines, and I wondered at the time of watching whether they would have had any illnesses from the lines. Perhaps they did not, after your info? Interesting thanks.

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#30
In reply to #24

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/19/2009 4:45 AM

From one old goat to another!!

I will have to put out a bit of extra alfalfa to keep my grey old goats from sabotaging the electric fences on the farm!!! In Africa we call that very strong medicine! Just nine years to take clever electric man and make him "grey haired old goat!" Very strong medicine!

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#33
In reply to #30

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/19/2009 11:28 AM

That nine years was thirty five years ago.

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#29

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/18/2009 5:22 PM

Gentlemen,

I design, build and install large ozone production equipment for water treatment plants. My colleagues and I regularly get exposed to some ozone. Here is vision of this:

1- Ozone is a very powerful oxidant that must be treated with great respect. As much as a little bit could help you, too much will harm you.

2- We avoid to be exposed as much as possible. Good ventilation is our prime concern before starting a potentially leaky system.

3- Ozone is heavier than air. It accumulates in the low areas. Without wind to disperse it, the concentration can reach dangerous levels from small leaks.

4- Nobody in our group will ever expose himself to ozone unless they have too. We will not buy an ozone generator to clean the air in our houses. But I would use an ozone generator to replace the chlorine in my swimming pool anytime as long as all the ozone is consumed in the water. Ozone does such a good job with water cleaning and it returns to oxygen rapidly.

As far as the power lines are concerned. in addition to the electrical fields, there are residual currents flowing in the ground mostly under the line. This is often what affects cattle's in farms or the fish in the river.

I would not buy a property near a high voltage line no matter how cheap it is. The constant exposure to the electrical fields and the ionized gas is probably detrimental for one's health. There is no reason to take a chance. That being said, many electrical appliances expose you to greater electrical field that the power line nearby simply because of the proximity. But they are not operating 24h per day.

Danger is lurking everywhere. Try to decrease the exposures to the bad stuf but don't stop living because you don't want to die... One must realize that we are hundred times more likely to die from a car accident than almost anything else. One must keep that in perspective.

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#32

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/19/2009 10:35 AM

The two questions "...about the field generated by a bunch of these lines, and how it may or may not be magnified from the body of water."

To respond to the question's -

the electrical voltage field is normally uniform in all directions about the power conductor, unless something is placed in the field, such as another conductor, a vehicle, or concentrated by the river water, remember because this is 3-phase electrical power - parts of the fields are cancelling each other out also. The only DC lines are from Canada into the central US south to Nebraska.

The other consideration is the rain and condensation droplets hanging from the powerlines all have corona on them. These droplets are usually only present for about 4 hours after a rain storm in dry country, but over a river they may be always present, iciles can also have corona and are present all winter by the river. I have pictures and video from corona cameras.

Looking at this from the end of the conductor, the river would appear similar to when an iron bar is placed in a weak part of the magnetic field.

Rivers have also been carriers of metals and the metals deposited in the river bottom help to concentrate the magnetic field from the current in the power lines, although the magnetic field would be extremely weak at the normal ground clearance distances.

The fish do swim through these areas and many fishermen park there boats under the powerlines, so are you a "Green Activist" ??

Humidity actually causes less corona because the water in the air causes increased spacing between the nitrogen molecules.

Lightening it is said can travel for 7 to 20 miles in river or lake water, exploding things when the field is strong.

The www.corona-technology-course.com is a 15 hour course on DVD's that explains all of these scientific facts thoroughly.

Also please see:

www.vimeo.com video of 2008 Tesla Fest

www.resonanceresearch.com where HV for museum exhibit's is built If you would like to exhibit HV or Ham Radio at Tesla Fest 2009 in Baraboo, WI please contact: resonance@wildblue.net

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#36

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/20/2009 9:48 AM

Yep, the smell was Ozone. The production of ozone depends on the space charge and corona current as well are the gas conditions, i.e. humidity and particulate content. That's one reason we have to lock-out the ESP when guys are working the the boiler, ozone causes nausea and nose bleeds.

I read an article in the IEEE Spectrum online last month about cattle that line up along N-S magnetic fields, except in the presence of transmission lines. When in the proximity of high voltage line the cattle lined up with the conductors. I know that the conductors in a transmission line are "transposed" periodically to balance their impedance. Conductors close to the ground appear to have hight impedance due to an opposing magnetic fields that is impressed on the earth.

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#37

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/20/2009 11:43 AM

Thank you all for the good responses. I floated the same stretch of river yesterday. The first day was during some light rain, and overcast (good fishing).

Yesterday was hot, and sunny (less fishing, more drinking). I did not notice the "sensory overload" yesterday while passing under the lines. The wind was blowing, and the air was dry, so the answers make complete sense.

Thank you all again.

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#38

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

07/20/2009 11:46 AM

The odd odor and burning eyes may have been a result of the ozone generated by the corona generated by the electric field around the wires. The humming and popping sound gets even louder when the humidity gets higher or the particles in the air become more numerous from things like smoke and dust. If you would have let your hand drag through the water you would feel like little needles were poking your skin. If you walk through grass under high voltage lines and the grass can brush against your bare skin you will feel the same sensation. I've been riding on a mower under those types of lines and if the skin of your arm brushes against the metal on the mower you will feel a similar prickly sensation, actually little electrical shocks. I imagine that the fish may feel a similar sensation and shy away from the area. It might be interesting to see what it would feel like if you were swimming in the section of water! I'm pretty sure you would be aware that something strange was happening!! Also, on dark rainy nights those lines fairly roar and appear as white steaks through the sky.

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#39

Re: High Voltage Power Line Field.

08/08/2009 1:28 PM

Mr. Faraday , where are you ?

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