Tomorrow is here Today

Can they do a better job, or just do it more cheaply? Is the design truly new, or just a minor mod of an existing version?

Good questions. Apparently, the reason they are being given the design work for the new global model is because they can do a better job. I'd assume they can also do the job cheaper. Of course "better" is hard to measure in car design: one person's beauty is another's beast. That the Chinese model sells better than the US model quantifies things a little, but Buicks have sold very well in China, probably with higher market share than they have in the US. I think the conclusion by upper management in GM is that the Chinese model is the more successful, however that is measured.

As far as the design being truly new or a minor mod: The interior was entirely new, and it appears that the exterior was as well. The basic platform is shared, but with different engines for the Chinese market.

This is a year-old article that talks about some of the design differences. The more recent article I read last night in Fast Company says the model has been very successful, and that was a factor in choosing the Chinese team to do the global model.

Uncontrolled corporate greed for a fatter bottom line is the only issue here...Most of these corpoations seeking out a cheap labour force could care less about quality (ie Maytag Korean washer recall etc. etc. etc.)...it's all about the buck!!!! Cheap labour and close access to a massive emerging market has made them turn their corporate backsides to the faces of the workers that gave them their first designs, first labour force AND their first profits........If we do not wake up and start sreaming bloody blue murder about these traitorous companies skipping to communist tunes to stuff their wallets.....we might just as well shut down every manufacturing plant in North America and paint ourselves red!!!

Some might suggest this is happening by default, rather than by design...

Uncontrolled corporate greed ... Are you suggesting there was ever a "controlled" corporate greed?

corporations seeking out a cheap labour force OK, true enough, but did you ever think of what brought this on? High cost of labor. If any corporation is remain in business, they need to be competitive. I hope your not suggesting we shut our boarders to all outside products and anything sold in this country, (any country) had to be made in that country?

If we do not wake up and start sreaming bloody blue murder about these traitorous companies skipping to communist tunes to stuff their wallets... Before you start pointing the finger, look in a mirror, ... real close. If we want the jobs to stay home, we (as engineers and workers) need to do a better job, be more efficient, lean and productive. If we were, companies wouldn't gain an advantage to look elsewhere for our labor.

I'm an engineer, but right now I'm assigned to do Value Engineering. Take the cost out of our product. Today I redesigned a simple part, a cross over bar. It cost my company $77 US dollars to purchase this simple part. With a few small design changes I have a quote for $12, US dollars. To me that means some engineer somewhere didn't do the job right the first time. No wonder the company wants to look elsewhere.

If the company is leaving... SHAME ON US!

Virtually all US corporations seek out the cheapest labor force consistent with producing a product that meets the buyer's expectations. To do otherwise would be considered malfeasance by the stockholders. Investors invest to make money... period. Where US companies shoot themselves in the feet is in short-sightedness: high profits today... who cares about tomorrow. Investors -- the real die-in-the-wool capitalists -- reward such behaviour.

These "traitorous companies" are skipping to tunes that are anything but communist tunes: they are skipping to the tune of unchecked capitalism. Routinely, the stock market rewards CEOs and companies that treat their employees like dirt: Lay off 10,000 workers, and the CEO gets a bonus and the stock price shoots upward. If you want concern for the workers, you have to argue in favor of communism, not against it, right? "Workers of the world unite!" is not a capitalistic sentiment.

The only reason Toyota builds cars in the US is because it makes economic sense to do so. No Toyota board member is saying: "Gosh golly, wouldn't it be nice to build cars in the US to support American workers." They do it for competitive advantage. We build cars (and now design them) in China for competitive advantage: capitalism in action. If we shutter plants in the US, we are painting ourselves red white and blue -- not red.

A friend who grew up in Shanghai, where more Buicks are sold than in New York City, said that "communist" China acts more capitalistic than the US (where he has lived for the last 18 years). Greater focus on profit, status... fewer social services. In his (well-supported) view, science and math education, through high school, is much better in China than here. (For example, math teachers in China are math majors first, and then learn how to teach. Here, they are education majors first, and may have no real education -- or interest -- in math beyond high school and a couple college basics like "math for non science majors".) With better math and science education, we can expect they will produce better engineers. In Shanghai, as a gifted student, he was considered among the elite, and popular as a result. Here, his gifted kids are thought to be "nerdy."

If we are to compete in this new world, we'll need to get smarter, (and value smartness) fast. The day when we could simply supply our own needs from family farms and blacksmith shops -- ignoring the rest of the world -- is long gone.

What company has 25% of the US tractor market? What company is expected to exceed John Deere's global sales? Mahindra, from India. In which company would a good capitalist invest?

Globalization offers phenomenal opportunities for investors. The rich in this country continue to get richer, as a result. The poor and middle class will continue to get poorer or work even longer hours. Republicans give tax cuts to these folks to increase their lead over the poor, and to free up capital for further investment, and further profits, for the multinationals. This is unchecked capitalism in action -- anything but communism.

Thanks, Ken. I guess the fact that they can do the work for less is pretty much a given. What concerns me as someone who once worked at GM Truck & Bus is that "Generous Motors" believes that China is up to the challenge of a near-total redesign.

Perhaps some historical perspective is in order. In the aftermath of WWII, products that were made in Japan were often considered to be low-quality knock-offs of better-made American merchandise. Companies like Sony and Toyota put that prejudice on the ash heap of history, of course, and we all know what happened to Detroit during the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Ever heard the phrase "May you live in interesting times"? I guess we shouldn't be too anxious to substitute the "you" for a "we". I've been told this saying is actually a Chinese curse.

Best,

Moose.

When Nanjing Automotive took over the Rover plant at Longbridge, they promised to invest an amount of money (sorry, I can't remember how much) into R&D annually, that did not match what Mercedes spend daily! They also promised to re-open longbridge. To see what the plant looks like today, follow this link - http://strange.commongate.com/post/abandoned_mg_rover_factory/photos/35995

So, in answer to your question, I'd say it's cheaper.

It seems you were plot a plan to predict the future's markets.

Hold first.

Hope ur prediction will become true in the near future.

they only do a better job due to a lack of discipline in science and math in america

and the naive approach to education thats out of touch with reality of todays

way too fast technology ;the old education system is full of parts that need to be thrown overboard.

americans dont live in a rigid society like china; a state economy

theoretically we should be ahead

were not why maybe

1. we have major problems working together

2. most americans arent really committed to a field ;theyre doing time picking up checks

even if they were some corporations would keep it from working

3 they have more people and are getting more ;in the next 10 years or less will outnumber many other countries.

4 they actually were found not to be doing as good as people thought

no real compensation plans are comparable to the us in china

5 didnt the us sell or trade a lot of tech equipment like automated electronic factories

to produce electronic goods ;phasing out a lot of electronic industries

which makes less sense now except for the water usage and pollution that goes along with current electronics production isnt over here now

6 our own gov has allowed displaced military and civilian science students to be "locked out"

of their own tech fields

no i dont think that a better job can not be done in america!!

its just not going to be free

As the company I work for has a plant in China, I have to disagree. The main difference is economic, and culture. We can build cheaper in China, but we have far more quality issues. For a good example, compare a Pacific rim car with an East European car. Bare in mind we have 5 plants in the UK, 2 in the USA, 1 in Germany and 1 in China. The Chinese MD is the most qualified MD in the group, yet we have a constant stream of people going back and forth 'training' personnel. So a product made in china is 1/5 the price, but of a lower standard than the product built elsewhere. (plus shipping and rework costs)

It is interesting to see the tolerance of the population at large for low quality. Here, in the US, Consumer Reports keeps detailed records on frequency of repair rates for all the cars sold here. Some cars are clearly of lower quality than others. But people continue to buy models that are "far worse than average" in several critical areas, despite there (often) being no price advantage. Virtually everything sold at Walmart comes from China or wherever else it can be produced at the lowest possible price. I suspect that pretty much everything that comes out of China, India, Mexico, and other countries where labor costs are very low will continue to improve in quality. (The quality of a Chinese power hacksaw I recently bought is actually much better than that of a US made Sears Craftsmen saber saw I bought 20 years ago.) Manufacturing in more developed countries will have to continue to decline, due to economic pressures. All of which has been happening for many years.

But now, even engineering, software development, customer service, etc, is being handled off shore. My generation is among the first to have a lower standard of living (per household work hour) than my parents' generation: most of my parents' generation had one breadwinner per family; most of mine has 2 (and we work longer hours per person to boot). I fear that my kids' standard of living will be even lower. (Tears well up in my eyes, when I think that my kids may have to drink $1.00 cups of coffee, instead of $5.00 cups of Starbucks!) Some trimming of excess (and equalization of incomes worldwide) is probably a good thing: many (most?) people in the US feel they are ENTITLED to use twice as much energy per capita as the other industrialized countries. That is a fundamentally unhealthy attitude that leads us to think that we are therefore also ENTITLED to control the world energy market by whatever means is required, peaceful or otherwise. I'd certainly rather see my kids biking to work than to see their countrymen coming home in body bags, while they are snug in their Hummers.

Is your company more likely to build another plant in China, or another in the US?

Hi Ken, you make a lot of sense.

Uh Oh! I must be having a bad day!

amended by kris. good to comprehend

:

Subject: Re: English Help

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/6292#newcomments

Ken, you needn't worry about these things.

China has just emerged. You have to remember that China has the largest population in the world .

Design is not a problem for China ( as well as other Asia countries like India, Japan, Korea etc).

We have plenty of fine art talents. Although industrial design is somewhat different from pure fine art, but they are linked very closely (even seamlessly).

Most colleges in China have opened industrial design courses.

Thousands of students graduate from these schools to fill design fields, for example- clothes, toys, manufacturing etc. No one country can compete with the number of Chinese students/engineers.

We have to admit, this is relative simple comparison with the structure and dynamic analysis etc for engineering projects.

As we all know, car industry is aimed at safety, comfortable, operation, and appearance etc.The first and the third are key (!) but all mastered by your other countries.

We have a long way to go.

The target of Chinese car manufactures is 80% parts produced by China ourself , but the key parts have to be imported.

Car industry has developed 100 years, almost every country can produce them , but advance technology is still controlled by few countries.

Why do you focus on traditional produce, rather than modern control tech, auto control tech? This is still developing technology for China.

In fact, this comment is not so true today, but it was in the 80s,

At the time a reporter an American reporter pointed his clothes out . They were not made in America, he showed his wrist watch, TV, radio, piano etc and all were not American made - even a bed was imported . He was amazed where Americans would buy - 'What was American doing ?', 'didn't America make these things'?

He hadn't considered that at one time America was changing and developed more effective information tech , and achieved more profit and benefit from it.

Chinese has a large population and consumption is huge as well.

Besides, every countries people like their own products with their own features , so its not odd that this car designed by ourselves sold so well here than in other countries.

Of course , design in china can reduce cost , so sales are better as well

Ken, you neednt worry about the things.

china has been starting. you hve to know the country there is the most population in the world is china.

model design is not problem for our chinese. as well as other asia countries like india, japan, korea etc.

We have plenty of fine art talents. Although industry design is somewhat different from pure fine art, but they are linking very closely even sealmly.

almost colleges in China has opened industrial design subject.

thousands of student graduate from the school to fill design field, for example, clothes, toys, manufacturers etc. no one country can compete this to china.

We hve to admite, this is relative simple compare with structure and dynamic analysis etc engineering project.

as we lall know, car industry is aimed at safety, comfortable, operation, and aappearance etc.

the first and the third are key! but all mastered by your foreigners.

we have a long way to go.

the target of chinese car manufacrtures is aim at 80% parts produced by chinese ourself. but the key parts has to be imported.

car industry has developed 100years, almost every country can produce it. but advance tech still controlled by few countries.

why do you stare at traditional produce, rather than modern control tech, auto control tech? this si futher developping tech.

In fact, this comment is not appeared at present, but was in last 80s,

at the time a reporter of an american pointed his clothes out, its not made in america, he showed his wrist watch, not america, tv, radio, piano etc all not america, even a bed was import. he amazed where our american would go? what our american was doing? why didnt we make them?

He hasnt viewed at the time armerca was changing and developed more high effective information tech and achieved more profit and benefit from it.

chinese has most population and consume is huge as well.

besides, every country people like their products has their own feature. so its not odd that this car designed by ourself selled so welll than sell in other country.

ofcause degned by us can either reduce cost. so sell more better as well.

Hi cnpower,

In your opinion, is China as good at designing products as manufacturing them?

Moose

In my experience, China is not as good at producing goods as here in the UK. We have a factory there that produces a similar product to us, that we import back to the UK. The product is simpler to manufacture then the one's we make, yet each one takes them twice the man hours. The idea was to send them the complicated stuff, to capitalise on the cheaper pay rates, but given this and the quality issues, it's been a bit of an eye opener. We have rejected a whole container of product, and flown people over to do the remedial work; also to give further training. All in all, not a perfect solution. e intend to stick with it, and supply the lower end of the market with the Chinese product.

Hi, mak,

your opinon is right, but not quite right!

none dont know your English is an old brand capitalism. the ealiest invention of power machines, the earlist industy revelotion are all from your country. you have the most advance tools and complete management and relative higher tech than us.

you can link with other europe countries to produce very good A380 aeroplane, but we cannt. we have to buy it from you.

Most of products made by us is still belong to the range of primary products and low level tech products, lke clothes and toyes etc.

some high level appliance like color TV and mobile phone are all belong to range of processing for others. they has key tech, and we are only a factory.

but you have to admite, the situation is changing.

now we can produce huge crankcase as you see, large type digital control lathe, processing centre, 3D coordinators measure machine, etc.

larger passenger aeroplane made by ourself will put into market soon. although we can produce almost alll you produced, but we still has a long distance at the way of high tech compare with you. especiallly in electronic tech.

if your western country can produce hi tech products, why do you need to waste manpower to produce low, simple products? If it were me, I should not to do that.

btw, Plbmak,

why do you use that picture like a 3k party as your avatar? its terrible.

you are english not american. can you change one?

I'm not quite sure what you mean...However, the image is of Max Schreck in his iconic role of Graf Orlok in the classic film, Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens made in 1922. I did change it, once, but I had a few complaints!

In history of america last century, america has a party called 3k party, I know it from our textbook or newspaper, its terrible. arrest, kill etc. in secret state. and always act in night. all is past. I dont know their story but I remember they dressed like that.

that picture is very like them. but I really dont know it comes from a film. now I learned a little.

its only myown opinion. however, I thnk peace, lovely appearance is better than terrible like. all is depend on you.

in the room, Kris changed his terrible pic, Yaval changed his smoking pic. I think they do very well.

Morning, Moose,

We can say it in a word. different things different handle.

We can design something like clothes, appliances, and machines as good as other developped countries, its not a difficult, any country can do it after simple trainning.

so you neednt worship some name brand like clothes, appliances etc, designed by your western world designers. they are only commocial operation.

manufacture is another thing. some of them we can do, some cannt.

design depends on thinking, manufacdtrure depends on tech.

(industry design)

for example, toy, we can design very good, love appearance and can produce it by a great deal of .because we have lots of lower price labour, in fact, these manufacture neednt high tech, just skill.

another, I can design a generator as large as I image, but I cannt produce it.

a story, many year ago, chinese cannt manufacture a huge crankcase as same as shown by a thread in the room. although we can design it without difficult. But today after develop, we can produce it by ourself.

Industry design, in history, in fact appear in China is earlier than western country, although we know its advocated by european last century.

the issue is chinse lack creative industry design, as they live in a long close, feudalism society.

the situation is changing after half century developping.