Login | Register
The Engineer's Place for News and Discussion®

Previous in Forum: Marble Curb Topper for Cement Curb of Shower   Next in Forum: How to Remove the Odor of Hydroponic Solution
Close

Comments Format:






Close

Subscribe to Discussion:

CR4 allows you to "subscribe" to a discussion
so that you can be notified of new comments to
the discussion via email.

Close

Rating Vote:







12 comments
Associate

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Scottish Borders
Posts: 38
Good Answers: 1

Treating Copper With Chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 4:15 AM

I wonder if someone could please help me on this one.

My wife makes these ornaments from copper and old china. To get the blue effect on the copper she treats it with a chemical verdigris ( copper sulphate I think ). When she has achieved the desired effect she then seals it with a clear varnish. However with the passage of time the reaction seems to still proceed ( a bit like a living sculpture ). Is there any way to stop the reaction at the desired point prior to sealing it with varnish.

Thanks in advance BF

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: at the beach in Florida
Posts: 5441
Good Answers: 268
#1

Re: Treating Copper with chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 7:54 AM

Nice work...verdigris is produced by treating copper with acetic acid, neutralizing the acidic balance may alter the color...but she could try baking soda and see what happens...or perhaps go to some sort of paint...Copper Sulfate I think can be toxic and I would not recommend it for casual use....

Here is some good reference and materials info...

http://basiccopper.com/wowicoinarcr.html

http://copperhand.com/

__________________
The relentless pursuit of pacification....
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Scottish Borders
Posts: 38
Good Answers: 1
#2
In reply to #1

Re: Treating Copper with chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 8:40 AM

Thanks.... she has turned this into a thriving little business, regularly supplying about 70 galleries across the UK together with worldwide online orders ( have a look at the website www.beastiebrooches.co.uk ).

Have had a look at the links, unfortunately these guys don't give much away. Will try to find out exactly what chemical she is using ( think she gets it from the US ), will also try the baking soda idea as this would be fairly quick and simple.

Will keep you posted

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 123
Good Answers: 8
#8
In reply to #1

Re: Treating Copper with chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 10:51 PM

Solar Eagle: You are correct, Copper Sulfate contains Arsenic. Not a good chemical to have around the house, especially if your wife is prone to displays of (dis)affection!!!!

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member Fans of Old Computers - H316 - New Member Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3019
Good Answers: 68
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Treating Copper with chemical Verdigris

10/05/2012 4:43 AM

The formula for copper sulphate is CuSO4. Note the lack of the letters As which is the chemical symbol for arsenic. I don't know where the idea that copper sulphate contains arsenic came from but in its pure form copper sulphate contains NO arsenic.

Copper sulphate is mildly toxic and can irritate the skin and eyes so when handling it you should wear gloves and eye protection. But if you don't swallow the stuff then and take precautions when handling it then I shouldn't be a problem.

__________________
An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 344
Good Answers: 25
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Treating Copper with chemical Verdigris

10/05/2012 7:24 AM

Likely this is a reference to technical grade material. If you read the MSDS for a number of metallic salts, they often have low levels of things like lead etc. listed as possible contents. These are allowances, not specs.

Note- CuSO4 is commonly used as a micronutrient in animal feed (except for sheep).

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member Fans of Old Computers - H316 - New Member Hobbies - Model Rocketry - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 3019
Good Answers: 68
#12
In reply to #10

Re: Treating Copper with chemical Verdigris

10/06/2012 3:16 AM

Another possibility is confusing CuSO4 with Copper Chrome Arsenate (CCA for short) which was widely used as a preservative for softwoods to prevent decay and insects like termites from eating it.

__________________
An elephant is a mouse built to government specifications.
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 9195
Good Answers: 329
#3

Re: Treating Copper With Chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 9:15 AM

Some experimentation may be in order. If this works, it would save her money, and I believe the process would be halted with a simple water rinse.

http://www.mailleartisans.org/articles/articledisplay.php?oldkey=3753

__________________
If you expect what you've learned to outlive you............give it away.
Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 344
Good Answers: 25
#4

Re: Treating Copper With Chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 10:12 AM

Very nice!

The color in the picture does look like copper sulfate pentahydrate. Unfortunately, this can lose water of hydration, which also causes it lose the brilliant blue color. If the finished piece gradually turns greyer or a greenish color that is likely the problem. This could happen if it is kept in a very dry environment as the varnish only slows down the equilibrium of dehydration. Another possibility may be that other chemicals in the verdigris compete with the CSP or react with the base copper over time (especially if the solution is acidic) in which case a soda ash wash would help.

If you could say what the actual change(s) is & how long it typically takes that would give us a better idea.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Scottish Borders
Posts: 38
Good Answers: 1
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Treating Copper With Chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 10:42 AM

Thanks....can only go on what my wife has told me ( never seen it myself yet ).

She says the verdigris appears thicker and paler in colour, this has shown up on some pieces which are about 6 months old. It does not seem to be a great problem as no-one has complained as yet.

I think you are probably on the right track about the CSP. Maybe like the others have said, a wash with water or baking soda solution may stop this happening.

Will find out tonight what the chemical is ( or at least the brand name ).

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC USA
Posts: 9195
Good Answers: 329
#6

Re: Treating Copper With Chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 1:52 PM
__________________
If you expect what you've learned to outlive you............give it away.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Scottish Borders
Posts: 38
Good Answers: 1
#7

Re: Treating Copper With Chemical Verdigris

10/04/2012 4:57 PM

Thanks to everyone so far.

Here's some more info, its manufactured by Mayco as part of their Magic Metallics range, product code MM 305 Rapid Rust.

Have found some application notes, it says non-toxic and can be sealed with MM 502 Matte Sealer

www.maycocolors.com

Probably the best idea would be to use the proper sealer if available in the UK.

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: MA 01864, USA
Posts: 453
Good Answers: 7
#11

Re: Treating Copper With Chemical Verdigris

10/05/2012 2:49 PM

Vinegar will do same thing and is easy to handle

__________________
Masyood
Register to Reply
Register to Reply 12 comments
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Brian Falconer (3); evaluator (1); JNB (2); kramarat (2); masu (2); Masyood (1); SolarEagle (1)

Previous in Forum: Marble Curb Topper for Cement Curb of Shower   Next in Forum: How to Remove the Odor of Hydroponic Solution