How Do I Find The Corners of My Lot With Only 2 Known Corners Using GPS?

If there is any legal dispute, you will have to have the land surveyed.

Also, benchmarks can be anywhere, so there may be one closer than you think.

If you have a legal decsription of the land, you should be able to identify the corners from the verbal description on the deed.

Verbage such as "starting from "someland mark" and proceeding two hundred feet east, thence traveling 600 feet to the north to the large oak tree, etc. may help.

But, I'm from Arkansas, what to I know?

But, I'm from Arkansas, what to I know?
I am from Texas so you probably know more than me.

The only way to have the disagreement resolve is to have it surveyed by an outside firm.

Any information that you would come up with will be argumentative. You have nothing to base it on.

Now you say the property line is square. One mile each side. Which is a section, one square mile, 640 acres. Which is how a lot of old property was sold. The information you seek may well be on the deed. If not on it a government land office should have it. These are facts that can't be argued.

That said if the previous owner of the other property made use of the land. With out your knowledge or disapproval.They may have claim under squatters laws. Differs from state to state.

The technology of today is far more advanced than it was in 1953 when my grandfather purchased the land. We are going to court with our new neighbour and trying to win the squatter rights laws. The lines have been here sense 1953, why change them now? No one knew where the true line was, and nobody cared, now the new neighbor comes in with GPS technology and want us to change everything.

If the judge finds in our favor, I'd like to have the GPS coordinates available to have added to the deed.

Thank you

Is there and old fence row marking this boundary? Does not mean there has to be a fence now. Just the signs of one. Staples on trees or barb wire growing out of them. If the property was farmed. Rocks from the fields were usually carried to the edge and dropped. Trees grew up on this line over time. The age of the trees would define how long it was worked and in the family.

You can, but you shouldn't. An ordinary GPS has a horizontal resolution of approximately 3 meters with a 95% confidence level, that means your corners could be off by +/- 10 ft. By your map the property is 6020 ft on an edge so +/-10 ft at each corner could vary the property line from 6000 ft (worst case) to 6040 ft (best case). On a property that size the acreage varies from 826.4 to 837.5 Ac, a whopping 11 Ac!

When the Landmen come knocking for a drilling lease at $6,000 per acre it can really add up. Pay for a Professional Land Surveyor now, it's the only way to go (and your neighbor has to respect the boundaries without question).

At the time the land was surveyed all the descriptions would have ended with the words, "more or less".

According to the given numbers, nothing is due N/S/E/W nor square. What does the 1953 survey actually say? I doubt that GPS is legally binding in surveying, though it might be used for some sort of auxiliary reference. If your neighbor is new, adverse possession may not apply; I think it requires several years.

due N/S/E/W is how we marked the land when putting up "Posted" signs. The 1953 survey shows distances from one line to the next, no reference to bench marks or anything else.

So, in theory, if we move one line, we can move the line on the other side of the property and that would allow the neighbor to the west to move both his lines and so on and so forth...

what a mess if we loose...

I went to a course on GPS last weekend to get CEUs for my PE license, so I can now tell misunderstandings with authority! Anyway, I understand there are ways (which I didn't fully understand) to use multiple satellites and time on each location to improve the measurements to better than 1 centimeter. I think he called it surveying quality. Handheld and consumer devices won't be that good.

GPS systems are legally binding in NYS:

"...C.
Survey or High Accuracy Grade

These include instruments with associated software that can achieve one centimeter relative accuracy. These are used by land surveyors primarily for boundary, topographic, and geodetic surveys, photogrammetry, and other activities requiring high accuracy. Specialized training is needed to use this equipment..."

From:

http://gis.ny.gov/coordinationprogram/workgroups/wg_1/related/standards/documents/GPS_Guidelines_FINAL.pdf

As others have pointed out you can't use recreational GPS (Type A or B) for this purpose, this is not a DIY project.

I'd like to, but the new neighbor is a non-profit corporation... :(

Do you know the lengths and compass-bearings of the lines from the known corners to the unknown?

Yes,

compass bearings are both due West...

If you get what you are asking for from us, will your new neighbor simply accept it? Or, more likely, will he disregard.

He will have no choice but to accept the layout of a licensed surveyor. This is a double edged sword: you, too, will have no choice but to accept such a finding. Either of you that knowingly acts without regard to these now established property lines is asking for a lawsuit.

If this property is worth protecting, there is only one way to proceed.

What squatters rights? Is your family in adverse possession or not?

We never thought we were in adverse possession, but now our stand is we don't really care what the new guys thinks, we've used these lines for over 60 years, why change the lines now??

Well, okay...

Sorry, I have nothing that you will want to hear, and I certainly have nothing that will trump the position of "... we don't really care what the new guys thinks, we've used these lines for over 60 years, why change the lines now??"

Best of luck.

[edit] Reading through again I missed something: new neighbor is a corporation? For profit or otherwise, there will be corporate attorneys on staff. Woof!

It may be too late to do this without a good real estate attorney on the OP's payroll.

My guess is that the "new guys" knew what they were buying and can prove it in court. How else would they know where their property lines are?

But, what do I know?

Agreed. Would you purchase 830 acres, more or less, without some due diligence? I would not be surprised that the new guys have a surveyors report in hand, and the boundaries are already marked accordingly. Heck, the fencing may already be ordered.

This isn't CE 1953, and handshake deals made 60 years ago will hold very little water in a courtroom today.

But what do I know, I'm just a doorknob guy.

Does your neighbor play the banjo?

Beautiful country there.

Suggest you download Google Earth and plug in each of those GPS coordinates. If you think you can pinpoint your corners by landmarks you may be able to get coordinates for the missing corners. Again, it won't be real accurate and certainly won't hold up legally.

Unless you're going to sell or lease mineral rights, squabbling over the borders in an area that remote won't have any meaning whatsoever. It might be better to shake hands over the disputed area and make an agreement with you neighbor not to do anything with it. My guess is that you'll both go to your graves without ever really needing to know the borders.

Google Earth GPS is the best answer I've seen so far... I know where the line should be, or real close, ...

The land is used for a hunting camp, off by 10 feet wouldn't upset the family.

Labyguy

Get a Licenced Surveyor in to Peg & Mark the corners and boundaries.

Since there was No GPS when first divided up, any GPS figures Not provided by a surveyor are irrelevant.

Once the Surveyor has marked the site, he\she can provide you with GPS coordinates for the markers which will be admissible in a court, his will be more accurate as they use triangulated GPS systems which are accurate down to the Centimeter.

There is nothing you can come up with which will beat the corporate lawyers, so go with the smart option... get the Surveyor.

Regards,
Sapper

Isn't there a courthouse, registor of deeds, a county recorders office, etc.

Somewhere there should be a record of the land purchase. This would include detailed measurements.

If the original surveys and land dimensions aren't recorded anywhere, you guys are wasting your time. It won't matter where you decide to place the boundaries. Without a record, it's all arbitrary. You might as well flip a coin, or just place the line in the middle of the river.

I and my Dad & Mom were confronted in the same way in NC, at the shore area also involving water frontage rights. We "kind of won it". In NC, as in some other states, if you have taken care of the land and have proof of such over the allowable time period, it is yours. BUT this does not go down easy and can create vast problems. Solution.... 1. Must survey! 2. Must get fitting attorney. We set a legal contract that when Dad and Mom passed away, the new lines would take effect and the contract would be attached to both pieces of land. The neighbor could count on the land being there for sales sake and reverting to whom ever purchased after the owners, Mom and Dad, passed away. You can set whomever as passing away but make it too obtuse and you will find a long drawn out affair & $. This deal can be used either way but is better if you are the one who has been caretaker. Solved and excepted by both attorneys and owners, now good neighbors.

Not sure if your question has been answered if block is 1 mile square the coordinates will be one mile west so if point (1) was 43 38 12N 75 39 50W

point (2) would be 43 38 12N 75 40 62W

Point (3) was 43 37 57N 75 39 37W

point (4) would be 43 37 57N 75 40 48W

I do realise it is not exactly north and south, but it is close Also this may be a good site to visit

www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong.html

The questioned corners are eastward of the known ones, and the sides are somewhat more than a mile long. (See pic in OP.)

Thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for.

Labyguy

I have two comments, neither of which will please you but..........

1. Why not give the guy a GA if that was exactly what you were looking for?

2. You've GOT to be kidding!

<unsubscribe>

I think it's the link. I'd like to know how it works, but since it apparently does, I'll give him a GA.

The link is great, but I'm not sure what value it has to the OP.

After all, a mile is a minute (1/60 degree), and he had two starting points already, so I'm at a loss to understand how, now, he is happy when all it would have taken is some simple math to figure the distance.

Maybe they do things differently in NY.

Where's Moosie when you need him?

Oops. I thought I unsubscribed.

Historical benchmarks or monuments trump GPS. I have been there with a real estate deal I let slide. Cost me a land survey though.You need legal advice and a land surveyor. Ask your neighbor to split the costs over coffee. Even a charity will have some board that can make decisions. No need for anxiety from either party.

<The lot is square, so each side of the lot is the same distance, approx. 1 mile.>

If records exist to say LOT IS SQUARE and records state the area,

And you have 2 Sure Points as you show-- you can pinpoint the other unknown 2 points.

Really is a school Geometry Problem!

mm

There should be a metal stake placed at each corner.It may be buried below grade,so a metal detector is required.If you can get close with the given coordinates,use a metal detector to find the marker.Then ,mark it with a visible marker for future reference.If this indicates a large error, then it may be worth pursuing.

If this is going to be a legal issue, have it surveyed to verify the corners.

You will probably find that all corners are off a bit from original deed description.

Surveyors tools have improved over the years, and the type of GPS they use is very accurate, and will stand up to the scrutiny of the court.

Just be aware that you might not want to know what you discover, but you will be legally bound by the decision of the court.

Good Luck!

There are GPS devices and there are GPS devices. The ones used by surveyors, and the ones used by commercial and military airplanes cost many hundred times and upwards from your "walkabout" device. For a good reason: they can do much more, they are calibrated and certified accordingly.

The surveyor's comes with a tripod mounted small dish antenna pointed upwards, and a big case for the electronics. It grabs many satellites, and integrates it for a half an hour, or so. Then it knows its location for a small fraction of an inch in all 3 dimensions. Since a walkabout device already put them in a circle of 10meters (30 if all factors are wrong), it is a matter of two or 3 step to get the device within a foot of the exact location and mark it. The surveyor then logs it, and certifies it. No professional is bothered by a small thing, like a body of water. The marker goes on the shore, plus an indication, how many feet and which direction runs the line further.

The certified survey is a cornerstone document in court.

What you did not consider yet, that your opposing part may already has such a document in hand based on an old deed not consistent with yours. Then, if you have a modern survey in hand too, the real fun starts on even footing. Otherwise, you dealt yourself a losing hand to start with. Then, only then other factors can be weighed in. Those were discussed in the thread very well.

With good facts in your hand, the discourse may not have to end up in front of the court, except registering the newfound agreement for posterity.

And yes, I have personal experience with it too. My neighboorhood started development well over 30 years ago, based on old maps. My property was attached to a well-used stone county marker. Then a few years ago, it was finished. The surveyors were there (with the satellite device too), and in 3 days (!) every line, property line and curb got re, resurveyed. Now the county marker is buried and ignored.

.

Correction:

Applying what seems to be the necessary conversion from decimal-minutes to decimal-degrees for Google maps, yields - (example: N43.38.115, W75.39.499 translates to 43.63525, -75.65832)

1. Location shift NW to Page Rd. in Lowville NY.

2. Distance A-B =~3300 ft.

3. B1 still NW of A, distance A-B1 =~2400 ft.

4. Same angle, not a square.

Thanks,

I just used a GPS calculator to determine the distance, I could be (most likely) am wrong, won't be the first time. (there I go, trusting the internet again.)

Your normal GPS is not going to work. You need an actual surveying instrument to get the accuracy and resolution required.

For that you need to either buy/rent that equipment or hire a survey team to do the job.

The problem with the DIY approach is that even with the right equipment your findings will hold very little water in court because you have no experience using that equipment and any attorney will rip your case to shreds.

As far as techniques to circumnavigate the water you can calculate the intersecting points on dry land before the line enters the water.

and must be a certified engineer.

I'm not sure how it works in the USA, but for sale of land in Aus, the block must be surveyed and the survey report from the vendor would specify the exact location of the block and any encroachments of fences either way of that boundary.

Regardless of where fences are built, the property ownership remains at the surveyed boundaries.

In rural situations, it's usual for fences to be build on "give and take". The original fences would start 10' west of one boundary and end 10' east of the boundary. When the fences are replaced, the give and take are swapped. That way the new fence can be constructed while the old fence is in place. (With fences longer than 1 mile, the fences were in 1 mile steps parallel to the survey lines with constructed gates crossing the survey at each changeover.) (Our old property had 7 mile side boundaries and 5 mile rear.)

I fear from where this discussion is already heading that you are already heated in the discussion, but in reality, if the property is rightly theirs, then be thankful for the years of production that you have got from it while they paid the rates and let them recover what is truly theirs.

Back to my original statement, for sale of land, their is usually a survey (due diligence) by a registered and proficient organisation that would describe the position of any fences relative to the actual boundary.

Here in the US any legal description of the property filed with the courts is intended only to be a reflection of what you find in the real world, to get a person close to the actual boundaries. As someone already stated correctly above that here in the US original monumentation takes priority over anything on a piece of paper and thus needs to be preserved. I've seen barbed wire fences, wooden fences, trees and tree lines, ditches, a wagon wheel hub, railroad spikes and rock walls as examples of monuments used to show property lines or property corners.

As surveying equipment has become more exact, so have the surveys. As a result there are many "gaps and overlaps" between adjacent properties if drawn by the deeds. The resolution is most often where the monuments exist. No surveyor in the US in their right mind would adjust a property boundary based on a piece of paper if there is clear (and often agreed upon) monumentation.

A real example (told by the surveyor) went like this...

He was asked to provide an updated boundary survey and set pins at the property corners (if none existed). After drawing the original surveys in a cad program he found an overlap of about 15 feet between two properties. When he got into the field he learned there was a ditch that ran along the line and in talking with the land owners learned they both accepted the ditch as the extent of the property. In the end, the property description changed (the thing on the paper) not the property itself.

I suggest you search the word Plat and then search the words Title Insurance in Google. The literature will give you all you need to know about title surveys and owning land in the US. Remember land is not free and no one is making more so don't give any away for free. If your neighbour wants or needs some you can sell him some if he needs it that bad and that revenue can easily pay for the survey and subdivision if necessary.

Thank everyone,

From what I've learned here is not a do-it-yourself project. I'm going to hire a surveyor and a good lawyer. (I've dealt will lots of lawyers, non were ever any good, but ... what can you do?)

do the neighbors have survey stakes?. if they do, you'll have to abide by them as to being fathered in, so to speak.... if they don't,. the law usually considers the first survey to be correct. in thart case, get it surveyed before your nighbors.

This has been a most interesting discussion. Would you keep us posted on progress and resolution?