OH SO SWEET! May I be the first to thank you for getting rid of the guests and the sock puppet commentators all in one swipe!

Now I am curious as to which puppet posters will disappear here?

Any plans for a dedicated chat room other than the BBT?

Indeed that is one way to look at it - but guests ^{_{(I presume Chris, please confirm or deny)}} can still browse.

So it would be more like; YOU have to register & wear your name tag, to participate in the 'Conference'.

Which is 'freer speech' than millions of other websites, you must sign-up to, to 'pass go'.

If there is an issue in this, it's not 'gagging' guests of your ilk, it's the one Tornado raised on arbitrarily 'freezing out members'.

But bottom line; GS own this site - they can do what ever they like.

One hopes less of your style of drivel, so a less 'emotionally reactive' moderation climate, and both 'problems' (one being your ilk) will 'disappear'.

The site will still open for browsing but you must register to post.

Excellent

Wrong dude, if anything it will free up freedom of speech for those who want to stand behind their words. And for those who don't, just GO AWAY. Wow, I remember teling my Sargent that many many years ago when he banged on my door. I paid for those words back then. Not really, he was cool. Hell, I was friends with 4 star Generals back then. Some things on this site brings back good memoies that have nothing to do with everyday engineering feats.

On first sight I was about to rate this one as "off topic", but it isn't.

It is just incredibly stupid, beyond imagination.

You are SOOOOO right. It shows that the changes were long overdue.....

There is no quashing of free speech or locking out of disruptives involved. Simply a way to determine who it is that's making a fool of themselves.

Randall:

So... why do you care who they are?

1. So that I know in advance if I'm likely to be wasting my time reading a load of drivel.

2. Because I think they're less likely to post and make a fool of themselves if they can be "identified".

3. So that I can distinguish one guest from another.

In general, you (assuming that you are the same guest as most of the others in this thread) have conducted yourself well and politely, and, have maintained a reasonable level of rational debate. This is rapidly becoming less common for guests on CR4.

It would appear that the changes are working perfectly already!!!!

Many thanks CR4 for these long over due "corrections"!

I don't see how this squashes free speech. No one has to pay to join this site. You are free to register and say what you wish.

I do not considered it despotic for a private organization to require some level of information (registration) as a pre-requisite for someone to express their views on that private organization's site.

By the way, in the US, the first amendment is a restriction on Congress, not a restriction on an individuals and what they do in their private businesses.

I'd love to see the list of deleted duplicates.

So, I can be identified as "anonymous poser 2"?

Chris:

I have also noticed this recent downturn of our guest's decorum; more completely, a companion downturn to the civility of the entire forum. So,

Thank you for these changes. I know it has been difficult for CR4 Admin to come to this, and I believe it will be for the betterment of the forum.

Doorman

Dittoes. Color me stupid, i didn' t have a sock puppet... Milo

GA

I agree entirely.

Good move. Some will have to cop it on the chin. Poor Gil, whats he gonna do now?

Well done Chris - may the Reformation continue.

I believe (tho' I'm not 100% sure) that a registered user posting anon. in the current system can trigger an e-mail activity notification revealing their member name.

Can you please confirm that this will not occur in the new system (whether or not it does now)?

Also, will anonymous posters be able to edit their posts?

This looks like just the right move. As mentioned, there are valid reasons, typically infrequent, to post anonymously. Nicely solved.

And a fond farewell to AGuest, et.al.

I have expressed many times that I try to truly respect notes from GURUs as in India GURU means master. But later I realised that most Gurus on CR4 are fake.

Asa an electronic engineer myself- who knows a little in a very field 9that too in electronics) - I keep looking fro true knowledge in other fields like chemical technology automotive technology etc. I find same people responding sarcastically, negatively responding in all fields. I myself will never consider myself a GURU. One can never be GURU in all fields. So do kindly look into this- I am a knowledge seeker- I might suggest ideas- looking for bouncing back ideas and try brain storming in the sense. But - the reaction I get from same group of people is uncalled for. Further - we use our personal names- but westerners seem to use vague titles and vague profiles etc.

Westerners use vague titles or other names.

yes we do. My "Milo" persona is distinct from my legal name persona. My legal name persona is legally traceable and tied to my professional degrees and job, employer etc.

My Milo persona is my Off hours identity and does not come with my full pofessional faith and credit as an employee, but reflects more my personal avocational knowledge and experience. So when i answer a question about swimming pool water chemistry thats Milo because i have a swimming pool and expetience in adjusting water. Not my legal name identity even though i have chemistry background.

Also my Milo persona was started several years ago, long bfore i decided to do a professional blog. So now i have two online identities, my milo that is just me the guy, and my legal name professional blog, which is traceable as workproduct to me as well as my employer.

hope this helps. Look up " persona"

Milo

Worse still it is tied to your social security, tax id, bank accounts, etc.. Who wants to be careful about every possible tidbit of information they may accidentally disclose (if you know a month and year, or even just a year, and a place of birth you can narrow the list of possible social security numbers way down).

Your knowledge & understanding of how CR4 did work and how it works now appears to be severely limited.....

Smart move!

Good move Chris. And hats off to CR4 for holding on to the 'guest' policy for so long.

Pity that what held true for the first five years has degenerated and this move is actually a retrograde step necessitated by undesirable guests.

i sure hope that Anon posting will be for bona-fide reasons, and will be used very rarely.

Thanks, and good luck.

Dear Mr. Cris Leonard,

A good move.

I am not getting the cr4 every day to my mail regularly and it is coming once in a way. This problem is for the past 12 or 13 days.

I got enrolled or registered on 28th May 2008. I seek your advice/help.

Thanks,

DHAYANANDHAN.S

Dear

Chris, I know I've only been around here for a couple years now and I have some what witnessed some of the activity mentioned above. Knowing that CR4 has wrestled with this for some time to make this change. I sorta just ignore when things look a bit out of control and move on. I understand some passion in some posts when one truly believes in making their point(s) more so understood. And yet this is an exceptional place to be. I for one have learned a lot and try my best to help on subjects I know about, or have passion about as professional as possible. And yes, sometimes, Like Karamat says, (1 is just never enough). So I may on occasion ramble some. Some days after work, many more. Back to the change at hand:

The only subject of change, is change itself. Life is ever evolving and change is constant.

When I was in the band, we wrote a song: Nothing ever stays the same. It was a great song!

So in the end, Thank you for making this change.

Jim

Good Luck Chris!

Good move! can I change my name from Johnnybravo to "guest"?

I have a feeling someone else has already thought of this, but it would be kind of humorous and keeping with the tongue in cheek humor around here.

In any system change is a continuous process. Anything to improve the quality of network will always get appreciation from the professionals.

Congratulations CR4 and thanks Chris.

You know many of us were always insisting on cancelling guest category. We know many guests contributed very good knowledge, but we never understood the reason, why they were not registering thir names and were prefering guest status.

On the other hand many guests were putting hurting comments under cover of guest instead of becoming bold enough to fight for the point openly

Thanks, now this chapter will end.

Although I am in general agreement with the upcoming policy, one reason to post as a guest was the inability to post "up front," because of the shadowy "You or someone else on the network has done this operation too many times." None of the "explanations" I have seen for this has ever made any real sense. (I can think of some plausible rationales, but they haven't been given.)

gsuhas:

The issue is the vulnerability of the registration data.

See post #24.

Privacy is one thing and hiding is another.

Privacy is already there. Do you know, who am I, when you see my name as gsuhas?

Only thing with registration, we get is continuation of views of a particular person. With guest, you always jump on any contradictory statements and can speak unethical, rude and unpalmentary languages.

So your point is totally baseless

besides, this is not a political discussion forum, so as to attract police behind you.

And who said, if you are working as guest, you are not traceable. You are..

If you so scared... just stop using internet, my friend.

Remove yourself from the internet and anything to do with the internet.

Its the only way if you really feel threatened.....

Good decision. I do hope this encourages those new to the site with legitimate questions or contributions to register.

Chris:

This is the information age.

Therefore, there can be no freedom without privacy.

Speech, which is illegal today, was perfectly reasonable commentary only a few years ago, and some of what is perfectly reasonable commentary today will become illegal tomorrow.

And then, some government agency will demand access to your database.

And you will almost certainly comply, if for no other reason than fear of having your own name put on some "list."

If you think I am overstating the case, compare the atmosphere in the USA today to the atmosphere in Nazi Germany, 75 years ago.

If you don't see the similarities, you aren't paying attention.

Freedom is trampled and rights are infringed more egregiously every day.

What has this to do with an engineering forum? If you do not want to display your name, do you really want to be here?

Jimh77:

If you think engineering can or should exist in a vacuum, insulated from the broader issues of the day, oblivious to human rights and the human condition, then I don't know what to say to you.

That's a correct point of view, but, it doesn't in any way address the the point which Jimh77 is making.

Fredart at post #72 has correctly identified the technical error in your argument, and, pointed the way to the philosophical error: true freedom of speech is the the right to say what you want to "as yourself"; that's the right we should all be fighting for.

From a purely practical point of view, some guests were beginning to ruin otherwise good threads, for reasons which I suppose they only know themselves.

I agree completely with your post. With regards to your sentence:-

"From a purely practical point of view, some guests were beginning to ruin otherwise good threads, for reasons which I suppose they only know themselves."

I have the feeling that some of them have completely no idea why they do that, its like some sadistic kids cutting off cat's ears, tying fireworks to Dog's tails or pulling the wings off butterflies etc....its a personality disorder.

"Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. "

Michael Caine, as Alfred Pennyworth (Bruce "Batman" Wayne's butler) in The Dark Night

"This is the information age. Therefore, there can be no freedom without privacy."

You've got your signals crossed: in the information age there can be no absolute privacy. But a fair amount of freedom, nevertheless.

You seem to think that privacy equals absolute anonimity, to the degree of warranted impunity. In fact this was the case in Nazi Germany.

If you are unhappy with the situation and any perceived dangers, remove yourself completely from the internet....your safety is in your hands, not in anyone elses then....never expect someone else to do it for you.

Dear Guest,

I am responding to your post 24 because you are so proud if it. Today in the news was the upholding of free speech by the US government. This is very different from the Nazis. CR4, on the other hand, can and does censor racial remarks, as is their right. You will now be Anonymous poster 1, for instance, if you choose to post that way. Other people will be able to reply to the proper person. I am all for that. You have it backwards. There can be no privacy without freedom.

-S

Chris:

You complain about the "negative undertone" of anonymous posts.

To paraphrase Noam Chomsky,

If you don't believe in freedom of speech for comments you despise

then you don't believe in it at all.

If you want to post about freedom, State your name, rank and Ser# if you want to make a statement, and again. What has this to do with an engineering forum?

So, either answer the Question, or move on to another Freedom Forum so you can state your freedom claims while still remaining in hiding under the cover of GUEST.

Climb out from under your rock. And again, WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH ENGINEERING?

So far there has been one guest comment with some possible merit. The rest are all garbage, and only help to make the case for the new policy.

(Exercise for reader: figure out which is which.)

In some sense, you are right. I do not understand "hiding behind guest," either. Indeed, that is the big problem that may now decrease. On the other hand, Chris mentioned some valid reasons for occasional anonymous posts (whistle blowing would be one, for instance). I added one other.

On those occasions when I have posted as a guest, I have usually "signed" my username or have given another recognizable handle such as "Editor Crankshaft" or "ξ". I'm not perfect, though; sometimes I have forgotten.

I sign my real name to my most contentious posts, so no way am I "hiding" anything. I probably still hold the distinction for the sternest rebuke yet delivered on CR4, but it was completely above the board.

Jimh77:

Every technology which is abused by tyrants is created by engineers.

Don't you think that places some obligation on the engineer to think about the human context of the things he creates?

And don't you think that such reflections might lead the engineer to express opinions the tyrant would want to suppress – brutally, if necessary?

Again, if you think engineering can or should exist in a vacuum, insulated from the broader issues of the day, oblivious to human rights and the human condition, then I don't know what to say to you.

Holzfeller:

On the contrary. We are indeed born with rights.

"A right is not what someone gives you, it's what no one can take away from you."

— Ramsey Clark, U.S. Attorney General, 1967-1969

Let me be more precise. A right is a freedom, entitlement, or immunity, which is so fundamental to human nature that it cannot justly be taken away or given up.

And this, by a simple symmetry argument, also defines our responibilities:

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law', because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

— Thomas Jefferson, 1819

I quite agree: "And this, by a simple symmetry argument, also defines our responibilities"

What I'm driving at is that 'duties and responsibilities' are the obverse side of the 'rights' coin, and you can't have a coin with one side bigger than the other, and if it doesn't have both sides it doesn't exist.

So you mean it is your birth right to remain hidden.

Good joke.

We all with identity, are not sure here, which guest we are talking to

single guest or many guests one each for one post (except #24, 34 & 54)

So then Rights are inherent to humanity and thus have existed since the dawn of human existence. So did human 25,000 years ago have the same rights they have currently in the US. Does a German citizen in Germany have the Same rights as a US citizen in the US or a Australian in australia? I suspect the answer is no. Rights are just a legal construct, an agreement between the government and the people that they have some entitlements or priviledges that may not be absolutely obstructed by the government or sometimes other people, without reasonable cause (or at least deemed reasonable at that time). Rights can be taken from citizens, criminals lose many of their rights, and they do not exist consistently or in perpetuity, the rights afforded to say Obama now would not have been his rights in say Georgia in 1855 (or any portion of the British realms earlier than the 1800s). Rights can also be partially obstructed when they conflict with others rights, and/or the fair and balanced operation of government. Do you have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Jeffrey Dalmer was happy killing people and eating them, did he have that right?

If that is a quote that you take as "allowing" free speech, you are even dummer than you look. Far more!!

Try to understand that not every quote from anyone is morally correct. This is one of the ones that is simply not moral!!

The secret in this life is to know and understand the difference between the two different types!!

Throwaway quotes are just that, throwaways.....

I suggest there be a count down. It would be interesting to see the very last guest comment. Some have been very good contributors, which is a shame if they are gone.

but probably all the good ones took the time to later create a profile and join up.

These aren't real names anyway... they are avatars. So I've never understood not signing up.

Chris

Garthh:

Your remark is pretty naïve.

As long as a traceable email address is required for registration, the dangers described in post #24 are very real indeed.

Or have you become so accustomed to the violations of your 4th-Amendment rights that you don't even notice them anymore?

You have no idea of how it works technically.

To achieve 1 registration per person - do you go "traceable email address"?

Have you ever tried that?

You as 1 person can register - stop your whining - put up, or shut up.

34point5:

I know exactly how it works.

Cool, then that computer ID is the cafe, or library? So what's the problem with establishing an avatar on CR4?

34point5:

That's just my point: if you have to go to that extent to protect your privacy, then we already live in a police state.

German History?

This is somehow related to what Chris and GS are doing with a site, you may, or may not, choose to join under a pseudonym?

What kind of crazy pills are you on?

Viagra-para-annoy-us?

34point5:

You and I and Chris and the rest live in a country that has commenced spying on its own people, and that is in the process of repealing laws prohibiting the use of propaganda against its own people.

And every web site that collects data that can be mined by such agencies is affected, whether it's owners like it or not.

You think being concerned about such developments is paranoid?

What happened every other time in history when a country did that?

Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Garthh:

And you, by contrast, are one who welcomes our new overlords?

Join, or don't - what could be a freer choice than that?

Your comments are really obtuse, it appears that you really do believe what you are writing!!

Unbelievable....

If you don't like the safety issues here (if there are any) then LEAVE......GO AWAY......

GA

Oh come on! I can't speak for anyone else here, and I don't know what your up to that's got you so worried, but if anyone decided to spy on me, they would be bored to tears within just a couple of minutes.

US government agencies don't even have the capability to deal with the mass of information that they gather on a daily basis that could be actual security risks, I'm quite sure they are not tracking CR4 members and their posts. Please!

I think the point being made is 'information can be gathered and used against you' not that you have something to hide.

The problem is if I post on here that I am earning money under the table consulting and not reporting it to my government or paying taxes. If my govt could search through the data here and found my indiscretions would they begin looking into my finances and prosecute me?

Many people break laws every day driving or not claiming things on taxes etc, the problem arises when an offhand post here about helping a friend with an engineering problem becomes an accusation of consulting and if my friend buys me a new bbq grill, and I don't claim that on my taxes. Could information in CR4 be taken as an admission or evidence?

All that aside, I joined CR4 because I liked it after participating as a guest. If I had been forced to register before participating, I probably wouldn't have joined. This is the first and only forum I regularly participate in.

That situation is not specific to CR4. Anything that's posted anywhere on the internet, is there forever. If there are things that someone doesn't want the government, future employers, friends, family, etc. to know about, they shouldn't post it anywhere.

Think of it this way, the same things that some here are so worried about, are the same things that allow the authorities to snag the kiddie porn freaks that troll the internet, which I'm all for. It is what it is. By their very nature, no forum, nor the internet itself, will ever be perfect. If a person doesn't want, "The Man", looking into their lives, don't give them a reason to.

Simply get off the internet forever if you have such thoughts. Its the only way......

LOL

I agree with Garth. Only bad message posters need to be afraid. All others are genuine users of the forum and very sincere.

At times there is a need to know with whom we are communicating with.After all we are sharing technology information so why we should share with hidden identity.

If we keep the forum at chat level then it will not have impact of serious engineering, science and technology place.

Right now it looks like a chat room thing with some problem solvers putting their hand once a while.

I don't think forum will ever be a problem solver as that part is often commercial venture. Casual solution suggestions are only thing to expect here and one can see how people withdraw themselves from serious solution comments.

I think only concern may be bad comments or weak ideas entry. There is no insider or outsider as private right now even though it is a work of a team that is private and has all rights to decide whatever they think is right or wrong. Asking others is a nice thing these people are doing.

Shyam:

Why do you close your curtains at night?

You only need privacy if you are doing something bad, right?

I close my curtains at night, not because of what I am doing, but because you never know who might be out there watching under the cover of dark.

Or what their intent might be.

Same on the internet.

Once you give up control of your data, you never know who might get their hands on it.

Or what their intent might be.

I've been following this thread with great interest. And I just want to say that I am grateful that most of the posters here are thankfully not nearly as paranoid as you seem to be.

I fail to see how registering, assuming an avatar with a pseudonym, and discussing topics that range through every engineering discipline, and yes, broach issues germane to the human condition, equates to loss of privacy, loss of intellectual property, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy (whomever that might be).

And I close my curtains at night because I am incredibly considerate and don't want to scare anyone. Harrumph.

sue:

Thank you for your consideration, but the humor doesn't invalidate my point.

And, all joking aside, I suggest you read some German history.

Concentrate on the period between 1933 and 1939.

And then tell me with a straight face that it is paranoid to see parallels to contemporary America.

I am well acquainted with that period of world history.

Regardless.

Why are you here?

sue:

"Regardless"...?

That's pretty glib.

Does that mean you fail to see the parallels?

why don't you explain it to us?

how is a private company related to a fascist government?

Garthh:

That was already explained in my very first post in this thread.

See post #24.

See also posts #34, and #54.

No you haven't explained the connection in the least

I'm sure Chris doesn't consider Global Spec or CR4 to be anything like any of the governments you are comparing them to

Garthh:

Re-read post #24, #34, and #54. Carefully.

And then, if you want to reply to what I actually said, we can continue.

Unless you are very good at computers you have been and can be traced...even if you are very good, there is a team in the U.S. govt that is much better than you. You don't want to be traced, go live in a hut off the grid far far away from anything interesting and stay off the internet.

Don't take this as an insult, I don't know what you know about computers. I know only a little; just enough to know how little I know. How do you think they will track to see if I am using more than one one account? They will track my IP address.

My question is if I am using a common server and log in with several machines on several accounts how will they know I am only one person? Or what about users who have a spouse who uses the same computer, will they say that is using sock puppets?

Unless you know more about IP addresses (which isn't too hard) and how to route them through other servers, you are NOT very anonymous. I know I am not any more Anon than my avatar here.

Garthh posted much the same as I just have in #45, I am just a bit more verbose at the moment.