The Engineer's Notebook Blog

The Engineer's Notebook

The Engineer's Notebook is a shared blog for entries that don't fit into a specific CR4 blog. Topics may range from grammar to physics and could be research or or an individual's thoughts - like you'd jot down in a well-used notebook.

Previous in Blog: Dungeons & Dragons: Geeky Fun or Gateway to Hell? (Part 2)   Next in Blog: Dungeons & Dragons: Geeky Fun or Gateway to Hell? (Part 3)
Close
Close
Close
Page 1 of 3: « First 1 2 3 Next > Last »

Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

Posted October 14, 2009 12:00 AM by Jaxy

Some people use time-out, others use grounding, and others spank. There are multiple ways to discipline your child, but research done by Lisa J. Berlin, a research scientist at Duke University, has come to the astounding conclusion that spanking makes kids less intelligent in the long run.

The Studies

The survey questioned 2,500, low-income moms about the use of spanking as a way to discipline their child. Results found that kids that were spanked when they were a year old were more aggressive by age two and scored lower on mental development tests at age three. Other negative behaviors are found to have stemmed from spanking, such as aggression, anti-social behavior, and mental health issues.

Research done by Mallie J. Paschall of the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation concluded that the IQ (intelligence quotient) of younger children that were spanked was five points less than their non-spanked counterparts. Among older children, the gap narrowed to 2.8 points.

Are Non-Spanked Kids the Best Behaved?

According to Murray A. Straus, a researcher at the University of New Hampshire, "The best kept secret of American child psychology is that kids who are not spanked are the best behaved and do the best in life. You won't find that in a single child development textbook, but it is true."

Now, I may not be a genius, but I did graduate from high school at the top 10% of my class. I also remember getting spanked once in a while. I don't think that not having my parents smack my butt would make me any less intelligent. If anything, it made me wise-up quicker on behaviors that were unacceptable. Spanking was also used in conjunction with other discipline tactics.

I believe these studies are missing some key variables, like how often kids were spanked and if other forms of discipline were used with spanking. It makes me wonder if a study on falling on your butt (simulating being spanked) would correlate to a lower IQ. If that were the case, all toddlers are at risk for a lower IQ!

What are your thoughts? Were you spanked as a toddler and think it stifled your intelligence?

Resources:

http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20090924/kids-who-get-spanked-may-have-lower-iqs

Picture: http://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/spanking.jpg

Reply

Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Guru
Technical Fields - Education - Seasoned Vet in the Classroom United States - Member -

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Troy, NY
Posts: 762
Good Answers: 19
#1

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 6:06 AM

I wasn't in the top 10%, but I was in the top 15% of my class and I received the occasional spanking. And it worked (granted, my dad is a large manual laborer, so it only took once getting spanked by his frying pan sized hands). I had exactly one detention in high school (skipped choir as a senior to pick up my prom tux) and was known for being laid back and only aggressive/violent in sports. As a matter of fact, I don't think I got into a fight after the fifth grade. But like your article says, that is just anecdotal and proof of nothing.

I think the key here is the lower-income part. Why just look at lower income? It seems that there are so many other variables to take into consideration in a lower income environment that can have an impact on how someone scores on an early aptitude test.

I am not saying beating a kid is a good idea; I actually frown upon it. But my wife and I both received the occasional smack on the rear-end when we crossed a line (she graduated salutatorian, by the way) and we turned out fine. And with my own kid on the way, I am sure he will get one occasionally, and I for one am not fearing that it will destroy his IQ.

__________________
StE - "For 'tis the sport to have the enginer/Hoist with his own petard" -Hamlet Act III, scene 4, 202–209
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1160
Good Answers: 36
#5
In reply to #1

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 10:57 AM

And to think... if your wife had never been spanked, she could have been valedictorian!

I agree that looking at just lower income families may create a sort of bias. Also the frequency of the spankings should be taken into account. I was sentenced to the couch (with no television) or to my room a couple of times for misbehaving. I received that sort of punishment much more often than spankings. And I knew when I got a spanking that what I was doing was absolutely not acceptable. I think the punishment should fit the crime and that spanking should only be reserved for the most undesirable of behaviors.

Congratulations on the child on the way! And Good Luck!

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#112
In reply to #1

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 4:01 PM

adj. dumb·er, dumb·est 1. a. Lacking the power of speech. Used of animals and inanimate objects. b. Often Offensive Incapable of using speech; mute. Used of humans. See Usage Note at mute. 2. Temporarily speechless, as with shock or fear: I was dumb with disbelief. 3. Unwilling to speak; taciturn. 4. Not expressed or articulated in sounds or words: dumb resentment. 5. Nautical Not self-propelling. 6. Conspicuously unintelligent; stupid: dumb officials; a dumb decision. 7. Unintentional; haphazard: dumb luck. I suggest that using the term "Dumber" to mean, "Stupid" is offensive to all the very clever deaf and dumb people in the world. Choose your words more carefully please. This is not a PC comment it is showing respect to those will special needs. If you child was born deaf and dumb would you like it being equated with stupidity? Is this a form of prejudice and bigotry? Yes it is.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#116
In reply to #112

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 4:35 PM

I think all the very clever deaf and dumb people in the world would view your statement as over stating the obvious or a spectre of being dumb in public, moron...

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#2

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 7:33 AM

Stop me someone....

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Ohio. USA
Posts: 574
Good Answers: 30
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 9:08 AM

Ahh, go ahead.

__________________
Whatever you are, be a good one. Abraham Lincoln
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
4
Power-User
Popular Science - Biology - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Colorado - USA
Posts: 133
Good Answers: 15
#4

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 10:32 AM

The studies are moderately interesting, but not-so-moderately flawed. When comparing behavioral or cognitive behavioral techniques, it is critical that 'technicians' all be trained thoroughly in the technique to be employed and that they demonstrate comparable competency in the technique. In this case, the technicians are the parents, and their self-reported use of spanking tells the researcher nothing about the approach to spanking that the parents used. There are actually a number of approaches to spanking proposed by people who give seminars or write self-help books for parents (e.g. with the hand or not with the hand; with an explanation ahead of time, a spanking, and a follow-up verbal debriefing vs. sudden, swift, and startling; etc.). Since spanking has not been defined, and the technicians were not trained in a uniform approach, the results are relatively meaningless in a clinical sense. A cardinal rule of evidence based practices in psychology is to standardize the practice for which you are gathering the evidence. The spanking group could be lumping together abuse and non-abusive spanking in the same group.

The studies also lack a degree of empirical relevancy. Home-schooled children regularly outperform their public school counterparts on standardized academic tests (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/30/home-schooling-outstanding-results-national-tests/). At the same time, home-schoolers are often home-schooled for religious reasons, and religious parents tend to use spanking as part of discipline and child training (http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin25.htm ). It is odd that this group of kids who are more likely to have been spanked (producing lower IQs) continues to outperform their peers who are less likely to have been spanked and subsequently should have higher IQs. Maybe the aforementioned methodology issue is relevant to the observed disparity.

P.S. Yes, I was one of those paddled as a child, and I am a member of Sigma Pi Sigma and Kappa Mu Epsilon and the recipient of a few other academic accolades.

__________________
Life is not an illogicality, yet it is a trap for logicians.
Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1160
Good Answers: 36
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 11:03 AM

I think that this study is a little flawed because it focuses on low income families. There seems like too many variables to account for in these studies. Something is always missing!

Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Biology - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Colorado - USA
Posts: 133
Good Answers: 15
#7
In reply to #6

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 11:39 AM

The WebMD article actually didn't specify that the survey data was limited to lower-income families. One study drew the spanking conclusion "after accounting for factors that could influence IQ scores, such as parental education and socioeconomic status," and still concluded, "spanking appeared to have a negative impact on intelligence" (emphasis added). The second survey referenced mentioned that it was cross-cultural, but doesn't specify that those surveyed were selected based on income.

I definitely agree that the "studies" were not designed to account for relevant variables. I'm currently doing grad work in psychology, and I see these kinds of weaknesses in a lot of studies and papers. After discussing the issue with fellow students, professors, and some of the studies' authors, I think the primary issue is a lack of training in research methodology. A lot of psychology/psychotherapy grad programs offer just enough exposure to stats/data analysis to give the students an illusion of competency.

Unfortunately, some of the poor study designs are agenda driven, but if the peer reviewers share the same agenda as the author, the "studies" get the sacrosanct status of peer-reviewed science.

__________________
Life is not an illogicality, yet it is a trap for logicians.
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1160
Good Answers: 36
#8
In reply to #7

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 12:18 PM

Did you go to page 2 of the article?

That is where I found: "The researchers questioned 2,500 racially diverse, low-income moms about their use of spanking as a discipline tool for their toddlers."

Reply
Power-User
Popular Science - Biology - New Member

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Colorado - USA
Posts: 133
Good Answers: 15
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 1:20 PM

Yes, and I should have talked about that one too—my bad. I was just looking at the fact that not all of the surveys had been exclusively limited to low-income families. (Darn tunnel vision ).

I found it amusing that the "most rigorous" study drew conclusions about the IQ and overall mental health of three year olds. Assessing these kinds of things for really young kids is as much voodoo as measurement. Kids this young are very open to suggestion/influence by their examiners. You can't leave them alone to fill out written surveys; they have to be assessed verbally, and they will respond to verbal and non-verbal cues from their assessors. It was also funny that Berlin was drawing conclusions about the "long-term" impact of spanking based on an evaluation of three-year-olds. You would think that long-term pronouncements would be postponed at least until the subjects' neurological development was complete.

To really asses the long-term impact of child-rearing strategies, I believe it would be good to look at how subjects are doing after they have been "on their own" for at least five years. All of the subjects in all of the surveys referenced were still in the structured environments of home and/or school. It would be more interesting to know how they do after leaving the nest. It is a much more valuable assessment of the effectiveness of their training.

Incidentally, I really appreciate you bringing up this topic. I've been wanting to discuss it with folks outside of my social circle since the mainstream media turned the surveys into a story. Many thanks.

__________________
Life is not an illogicality, yet it is a trap for logicians.
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 95
Good Answers: 1
#45
In reply to #4

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 10:42 AM

I totally agree with you. I bet that the parents who spanked did present other violent behaviors and screams. I am sorry but I need to compare a dog with a kid... if you kick and scream at the dog it is definetly going to be a lot stupider and wont know what you are trying to tell him. But does anyone know training techniques for dogs? There is NO SCREAMING OR HITTING, SPECIALLY HITTING. Dogs don't know they want to learn but they start to get it soon and once they are mature they know a lot of things like they don't go inside the house unless you tell them to, they dont go around peeing everywhere etc.

By the way... who tha hell spanks their 1yr old baby??? are these people nuts? I bet these parents have like 5 other children. common, thats another factor. This study is totally flawed, theres millions of factors involved here and its imposible to know if the parents are lying or not.

I would rather study their parents behaviour to know how children are going to grow up like. Its like they say, an apple never falls far from the apple tree... I bet its true

__________________
Open your eyes, look within. Are you satisfied with the life you're living?
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#83
In reply to #4

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:26 AM

At the same time, home-schoolers are often home-schooled for religious reasons, and religious parents tend to use spanking as part of discipline and child training (http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin25.htm ).

You misinterpreted this. Fundamentalists (both Christian and Islamic) recommend violence, but most religious people do not. Several religions and religious sects are strongly anti-violence (the most obvious being Tibetan Buddhism) and the vast majority of Christians do not advocate violence. Many Christians (and others) follow the example of Jesus.

The article went on to say this:

We predict that:

The use of corporal punishment -- whipping, spanking, tongue burning, washing the mouth out with soap, etc. will continue to decrease in North America as public awareness increases of:
The ineffectiveness of violence as a discipline method compared to other techniques.
The long-term hazards of this form of discipline, including clinical depression, clinical anxiety, drug addiction, and alcohol addiction.
The link between serious forms of punishment and rage, violent actions, and other criminal acts among youth.
__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#84
In reply to #83

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 2:04 AM

I'm not sure I follow this. For the past 50 years or so, spanking and corporal punishment has been in decline. Fewer schools using corporal punishment, fewer parents spanking their children. While society is less well behaved today than it was 50 years ago. More children getting getting into trouble in school, in college, and even more adults misbehaving.

I know that's a very generalized observation, but not one that I think is easily dismissed. There are many factors at involved so I suspect optimal discipline methods are much more complicated than most are willing to admit.

One could say that time out it cruel if taken to an extreme. Is it healthy to give a time out of one month for spilt milk or any other behaviour for that matter? So an abusive whipping of a child is likewise inappropriate for mis-behaviour.

__________________
J B
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#98
In reply to #84

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:30 PM

Is it healthy to give a time out of one month for spilt milk or any other behaviour for that matter?

I occasionally spill milk even now, and do not get punished for doing so. It would never occur to me to punish a kid in any way for spilling milk, unless the spilling was part of a pattern of bad behavior for attention, for aggression, etc. When my kids used to spill milk, they would immediately feel bad and would rush to clean it up. They feel bad mainly because they feel incompetent, and punishing them in any way, shape, or form would be some sort of sick psychological torture. Talk about kicking a kid when he's down!

When my kids would spill something, I would praise them for cleaning up so quickly. It is a time for consoling them, not for punishing them. As an adult, I feel like an ass when I spill something, and having someone punishment me would not foster any sort of trust: it would make me think the punisher is bordeline psychotic. Kids are not subhuman. But I would never punish a dog or cat for an accident, either. If a cat poops outside the litter box because I have failed to clean it, that's my fault, not the fault of the cat.

I've got to leave this discussion -- it's all too sick for me.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 638
Good Answers: 45
#101
In reply to #98

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:54 PM

Yes.."Catch them doing something right!"

By my estimation, children are much more often reprimanded for wrongdoing than praised for doing right. On this same token, I estimate that a child's perception of being praised takes considerably more effort than reprimanding; i.e. 4 attaboys weighs as much emotionally as one spanking. Based on this estimate, our social culture needs 4 times the praise than reprimands.

I do not believe spanking makes you dumber. However, I do recommend that there be at least 4 rewards for every spanking to maintain emotional balance. An even higher ratio will improve society.

__________________
This moment is as it should be.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#107
In reply to #98

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 2:15 PM

I too can eloquently direct languange without substantive import.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#125
In reply to #98

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 10:44 PM

I think you missed my point or perhaps I did explain well enough to make my point clear. It's not about spilt milk. I used that as an example that I have often used in regard to punishment. I do not suggest punishment/discipline for spilling milk either. I am talking about an appropriate discipline for a child's action. So use another example...how about watching a TV show you told them not to watch? Is time out for a month appropriate? Of course not. And neither would a violent beating. That's the point I was trying to make. Many commentors want to equate a swat on the butt (whether painful or not) with a force level applied to a child far too severe for an adult to withstand.

You may not agree and you are entitled to your opinion.

__________________
J B
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
9
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Good Answers: 12
#10

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 11:27 PM

This is a great example of drawing conclusions from correlations. Just because there is a correlation between two factors does not mean that one is caused by the other. A quick switch of the thesis points out the problems with this type of analysis.

Try this title and see if it makes more sense for you;

"Children with personality problems and lower IQ are more likely to get spanked"

Hmm, based on her data I could very easily prove that was true. Surveys do not provide causal or the chain of event information that would be needed to draw these conclusions.

Personally, I am not in favor of spanking. I think there are better ways of disciplining a child that also teach them good life skills at the same time. At the same time I am also not about to let someone get away with this crackpot research that is being used to promote an agenda.

The truly sad thing is that the researcher probably received her Ph D for this work. The social sciences need to focus on better quality research techniques rather than continuing to do sloppy research like this.

Doug

__________________
A robot must risk his neck for his brother man, and may not cop out when there's danger all about. - Isaac Hayes' First Law of Robotics
Reply Good Answer (Score 9)
Anonymous Poster
#25
In reply to #10

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 5:16 AM

Doug:

You couldn't be more right, except for one thing: I think you're too ready to give the benefit of the doubt to the social sciences. As measured against the desired outcome, namely the advancement of the cultural Marxist agenda, these research methods are not sloppy at all! On the contrary…

These methods produce exactly the results they are intended to produce.

I am reminded of the abuse of principal components analysis committed by Mann, et al. to produce the bogus "hockey stick" temperature curve in their now infamous paper which was then claimed to prove the existence of anthropogenic global warming.

Equally blatant are the countless studies, starting in the 1970's, which find no statistically significant differences between men and women (except when they can argue that men are inferior), because they lack the statistical power -- by design -- to distinguish between the presence and absence of such differences.

In each case, goal is good propaganda, not good science!

Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Anonymous Poster
#34
In reply to #25

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:39 AM

Yes, tell the people what they want to hear, according to the global filosophical beliefs of the moment, and then make up a "study" to tell them why they were right and you'll get your Ph D or maybe launch a best seller.

Yahlasit

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#43
In reply to #10

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 10:20 AM

Ooooh, drobertson, you totally stole my thunder. I was thinking the exact same thing: maybe dumb kids don't respond to anything but a swat. Maybe naturally aggressive kids can't be reached intellectually, and have to be dealt with corporally. (I don't actually believe any of this, mind you, but these are questions that don't seem to be addressed in the "study" as presented.) The report seems to have drawn the conclusion first, and found the evidence to support it.

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Columbia City, Indiana, USA
Posts: 832
Good Answers: 96
#11

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/14/2009 11:29 PM

If by "less intelligent" one means a lower IQ, I see no reason that except in cases of abuse, which spanking hardly fit into, would make a child less intelligent. If any form of discipline is not balanced it can lead to behavioral problems, but to classify all spanking as somehow detrimental is just nonsense. Discipline, in general, whether imposed by an overseer, or by the consequences of life is indeed how we learn the realities of 'cause and effect', or, possibly stated better, 'cause and consequence'. The difficulties of any discipline in developing minds comes when there is no balance between the necessary nurturing and discipline, otherwise the discipline is just punishment, and much less effective. __________Kind regards

__________________
"Just when I had all the answers, they changed all the questions"
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sebring, Florida
Posts: 923
Good Answers: 25
#12

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 12:15 AM

"I," came from a lower income family, got spanked when needed, with a wide belt! My father knew that striking a child with the force present in a grown mans hands could injure a child severely. Besides that the strap looked more menacing and was always hanging around in plain site as a reminder of what I could expect if I disobeyed or crossed that well defined line. Spanking, not abused, is a fine tool for training children especially when one comes from a large family. I remember well Dr. Spock and his "Don't Spank Johnny" publication and I saw a generation of children grow up uncontrollable! AND; I read some 20 plus years that "SPOCK"admitted that he had gotten it wrong regarding the subject of "SPANKING".

TMF

__________________
The only problem with common sense, is that not very many people have it, or know how or when to use it.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Anonymous Poster
#27
In reply to #12

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 7:20 AM

By the way, Dr. Spock's son commited suicide.

Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#96
In reply to #27

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:18 PM

Of course, here you are implying a cause-and-effect that is ENTIRELY unsubstantiated.

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply
Power-User
Canada - Member - BC Born, Alberta Raised, Quebec (poutine) crazed... Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - An airplane is just a bunch of beams... Hobbies - Model Rocketry - Had fun as a kid...fun stuff Hobbies - CNC - dreaming of cutting Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - PID ME!

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal, CANADA
Posts: 368
Good Answers: 10
#32
In reply to #12

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:25 AM

A reference to the "I got it wrong" would be great...I've read and heard about his theory and final outcome of his son.

I got wacked on the rear as a kid and hardly consider myself abused or diminished in any way. I was out of line and [IMHO]the wack is not a punishment but a firm reminder of who is in charge and I keep this in mind with my own children who are now very well behaved, do very well in school and, while not perfect, know to try hard and get great positive feedback from their parents instead of:

1. acting badly and getting negative feedback (a spank)

or worst

2. having no defined boundaries, discipline or direction to channel their creativity and energy. A kite needs a string pulling down to make it fly up...no string = no flight at all.

__________________
kkjensen
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#13

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 12:34 AM

I know many will be discouraged or angered by this display of incongruity having worked diligently in hope of such acknowledgement which has been cheapened without conscious regard.

Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

It has to be tunnel vision, how else could it be explained. Was stimulus money involved? I would be ashamed to be a party to this misrepresentation of education and waste of resources.

I've seen young kids tied to trees for lack of supervision, eating dirt, grow up to be well respected project engineers

I'm guessing there's an agenda...disgusting..................

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply
3
Anonymous Poster
#14

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 12:34 AM

Stupid children will get spanked more often because they are too dumb to associate their behavior with the punishment. Smarter kids will figure it out and not do the same thing or be more clever and not get caught again.

This is no different than saying that paying somebody less money for their work will make them stupid or less intelligent, when the real problem is that they are getting less money because they are stupid.

Please accept my apologies if I have offended any stupid people out there who are able to read this.

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
4
Anonymous Poster
#15

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 12:45 AM

Toomuchfun has already mentioned Spock and his recant on his anti-spanking campaign- the problem is, there is a whole generation of people raised under the Dr. Spock banner that have been really screwed for life...

My own experience:

1. I came from a lower middle income environment (not poverty, but limited)

2. I was spanked severely and frequently by my step-dad- often for crimes not committed.

3. I graduated from highschool in the upper 10% of my class (although I suffered a serious bout of rebellion in my senior year, which tended to knock me down a pretty big notch).

4. I was nearly straight-A in engineering school (missed it- a "C" in a computer course, a "B" in Advanced Calculus- both during the semester when my mother passed, which created a lot of missed classes and distractions)

There is a significant difference between "spanking" and "beating". "Spanking" should not be intended to inflict pain, but to express displeasure. Punishment should not be delayed with children ("wait till your father gets home!") because most children have a pretty short attention span- a quick smack on the behind to express displeasure is most effective, especially when used sparingly and immediately. Waiting too long, and the child most likely will have forgotten the infraction that incurred your wrath.

I am not a psychologist. I can only speak from experience. The authors of this study should read Spock's recant...

Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#18
In reply to #15

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 2:45 AM

"Spanking" should not be intended to inflict pain, but to express displeasure.

Is there something wrong with expressing displeasure verbally, just as adults do? We say to little kids who are fighting: "Use your words." We don't say: "Way to go kids -- beat the crap out of each other!" Those who spank do not spank to administer pleasure. They spank to administer pain and to humiliate. Otherwise the kid would not end up crying -- which seems to be the desired response.

If we want to teach our kids that violence is not the best response to conflict, then we can't have our response be a violent one. We need to talk, not hit.

Why would we want to teach our kids by example that hitting is a valid response to misbehaving? It doesn't prepare them for adulthood. Imagine if we treated adults as spankers treat kids: "John, I'm disappointed that you missed that deadline. Come over here for your spanking." Why is it OK to hit a tiny kid, but not OK to hit an adult?

Spankings desensitize kids to your words. They often humiliate kids when all the kid needs is some guidance, distraction, or attention. Because the parent is often angry or frustrated (which causes the parent to resort to spanking rather than thinking things through) at the time that the spanking is administered, the punishment is often out of proportion to the crime, and the kid gets the feeling that his parent is unfair and not to be trusted. That is not a good basis for a relationship.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - New Member United Kingdom - Member - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlow England
Posts: 16499
Good Answers: 662
#19
In reply to #18

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 2:59 AM

Some good posts here.
Surely verbal punishment/abuse or even merely over harsh criticism can be as debilitating to a developing personality as a smack.
If you want to destroy someone's self confidence, verbal abuse is probably more effective.
I think many people would rather a short sharp smack than long telling off, the cold shoulder or other more enduring punishments.
It's a complex area, frequency and degree play an important part. Constant smacks (of sensible force) would loose impact? Whereas constant verbal criticism/belittling could be more destructive. Difficult to quantify, because the verbal would then become 'abuse'.

Anyhow, I like the new signature, I'm still voraciously contemplating it's veracity.
Del

__________________
health warning: These posts may contain traces of nut.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Anonymous Poster
#26
In reply to #19

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 5:25 AM

Del:

Yes. Precisely. Thank you for pointing this out. (See also my post #24 in response to Blink.)

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#42
In reply to #18

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 9:48 AM

Oh yes, we say to kids "beat the crap out..." If you don't, then your kid is the one being beaten at school, and will grow up full of resentment and anger, and then, one day he'll go to school carrying a 38 Super, will shoot someone and everybody will say "I don't understand why this happened". Use your words my ass...

Yes a spank is supposed to deliver pain, make him realize he misbehaved, but not to humiliate.

I agree we need to talk, thats why we have diplomatics on our governments, but if it doesn't work, we also have an army.

It is still OK to treat an adult as a spanker treats kids; just let an adult do something real nasty to one of your beloved ones and I swear in God you'll be the first to not only "spank" him, but do all sorts of nasty things to himself.

When you spank, you should tell the reason, and not punish verbally your kid as well.

And finally, spanking doesn't come from frustrated parents, it comes from the fact that (in your childhood) you knew you were doing wrong, but kept going, you knew it was a bad idea and were already feeling guilty, but kept on going, you feared being discovered, but, you stubborn little devil didn't stop !

As a comment, when I was a kid and I deserved the punishment, my father hardly ever spanked me, and if so, he used to say first "You don't realize how I feel when I punish you, you just keep doing it, why ?".

Yahlasit

Reply
Commentator
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Look for solutions before the problem occurs

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 68
Good Answers: 5
#118
In reply to #18

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 4:47 PM

Blink,

I agree that talking to a child is a good thing, however a childs mind has not developed to a point that they can reason well. They do understand a swat on the hind quarters which somtimes brings tears. Now tell me, when a child that is wearing and inch or more of padding is swatted and they begin to cry, is it because pain was inflicted, or because they recongnize this action as dissapointment from the parent.

I firmly believe that it is a way to get thier attention, then they will begin to learn/understand what is expected. After all, I do not believe God was mistaken.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#16

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 1:09 AM

It strikes me (no pun intended) as really strange that this study is considered astounding. Child psychologists have advised against spanking for decades. Even when I was a kid, in the 1950's, it was considered bad practice by people who cared about such things and studied child psychology and child development. Physical abuse as a form of behavior mod does not work effectively if you want a loving, responsive, engaged kid. Obviously, hitting kids teaches them that violence is a means to achieving control over others. Such kids would be expected to become bullies and discipline problems. Abused kids very often do much worse in school, partly because they don't respond to ordinary (non-violent) discipline. Teachers cannot hit kids (for good reasons), and so if a kid only responds to physical punishment, then the teacher finds the kid impossible to control. Then such kids don't receive the attention that other better-behaved kids receive.

My parents were both valedictorians, and their parents virtually never spanked them, even in the early part of the 20th century. My brothers and I were only very rarely if ever spanked, and we were all 99% percentile kids (well, OK, except for the middle one, who was a point or two down from that). I've never spanked my kids, and would have felt profoundly stupid to have to do so: Picture this: a full grown adult outwitted to the extent that he feels compelled to physically abuse a two year old because he can't figure out how to elicit the behaviors he wants? Who would want to be in that situation?

Murray Straus is incorrect, from my perspective, when he says "The best kept secret of American child psychology is that kids who are not spanked are the best behaved and do the best in life. You won't find that in a single child development textbook, but it is true." I've read numerous parenting books (almost 20 years ago) and one or two child development texts from my college days (more like 40 years ago) and only one of those books (which was written by an absolute right-wing wacko authority freak) advised that spanking or other methods of physical abuse were anything but a bad idea.

It makes me wonder if a study on falling on your butt (simulating being spanked) would correlate to a lower IQ.

There is a profound difference between accidents and deliberate intimidation of a very small person by a very large person. Small children imitate what they are shown. So if you hit them to get your way, they will hit others to get their way too. It's simple.

I wonder if traffic violations might better be punished on the spot by a good pistol whipping by the cop?

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply
2
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 1:28 AM

Well thought out reply if not overly simplistic.

Yes children imitate what they see, hopefully a loving parent administering a course correction be it corporal or not. One child may become aggressive and bully others having been spanked another may become manipulative having been influenced instead.

It's not the method of punishment but the attitudes, responsibilities, perspective, objectivity and mentoring involved.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Popular Science - Biology - life lover Hobbies - Musician - music lover Safety - Hazmat - better safe than sorry United Arab Emirates - Member - desert trek Technical Fields - Procurement - procurement

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Dubai, UAE
Posts: 744
Good Answers: 58
#22
In reply to #17

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 3:14 AM

agree & a GA.

"It's not the method of punishment but the attitudes, responsibilities, perspective, objectivity and mentoring involved."

spanking works best during the formative ages of children, and when the parent makes sure the erring child knows and understands why he/she is being punished.

__________________
Now the darkness only stays the night-time, in the morning it will fade away. -- George Harrison (All Things Must Pass)
Reply
Power-User
Canada - Member - BC Born, Alberta Raised, Quebec (poutine) crazed... Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - An airplane is just a bunch of beams... Hobbies - Model Rocketry - Had fun as a kid...fun stuff Hobbies - CNC - dreaming of cutting Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - PID ME!

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal, CANADA
Posts: 368
Good Answers: 10
#36
In reply to #17

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:44 AM

Agreed. There a big contrast in the outcome between a child that is beat and left to figure things out on their own (we've all been in trouble before and not really understood why, haven't we?) and one that gets a pop on the butt to get their attention and (perhaps after a brief timeout to calm down) gets a thorough, child-level discussion about what they did wrong, why it isn't right, what is right and the positive reasurance that doing it right will make the parent very happy and proud. Follow through with being happy and proud when they do well.

__________________
kkjensen
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#20
In reply to #16

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 3:03 AM

Interesting...as a counter to your experience, both of my parents were valedictorians also. However, my mother's father was quite strict...possibly abusive by todays standards but I've never heard her speak of him as abusive with discipline. My father's father was quite physically abusive. My parents did not spare me discipline by any means. They were not abusive, but if I got out of line, I was spanked. Neither of my parents could be considered bullies and nor am I. While I did not turn out to be a valedictorian (perhaps they should have spanked me more.....or less?) I was an honor student academically and not badly behaved either (while in school or since then).

Our opposing experiences are only a small sample size, so perhaps is not significant to anyone but us.

Perhaps raising children to be well adjusted good citizens of average to high IQ has more to do with how the discipline is administered than what the actual disciplinary action is. Even though I didn't enjoy being punished, I knew I deserved it because of my actions (the majority of the time) . I'm not sure what goes through a child's mind when they are unjustly punished on a regular basis. I can certainly see how that may twist them. But such early abuses can be overcome....my father is living proof.

You said "I wonder if traffic violations might better be punished on the spot by a good pistol whipping by the cop?"

Actually it might for a segment of the population. Please don't get me wrong, I am in favor of such a form. Nearly all traffic violators are have passed the point of neurological development (I was going to say adults, but then it dawned on me that perhaps a significant % are still teens). Is it not reasonable to think a different type of punishment/discipline would be effective?

It is difficult, if not impossible, to reason with a 2 year old and it's barely easier with a 6 or 8 year old. If they respond well to taking away their toys or time out...that's great....if they respond better to a spanking, I see nothing wrong with that if it administered with love, is just (discipline fits action) and is consistent so the child knows what consequences to expect for their behavior.

__________________
J B
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#72
In reply to #20

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 6:35 PM

Our opposing experiences are only a small sample size, so perhaps is not significant to anyone but us.

Of course.

I think that the idea that spanking causes a reduction in IQ would take a phenomenal amount of study to prove or even strongly suggest. (There are countries in which spanking is practiced much less than it is here, in which IQ's and performance on other standardized tests is higher. However the cultures are different in many other ways, so no conclusion regarding spanking can reasonably be drawn.)

I am not defending the study. My surprise is only with the notion that some think this is a new idea. It is essentially Dr Spock's well-publicized idea that teaching kids to deal with conflict by physical violence is not a good idea. Dr Spock's rationale* seems pretty logical to me, and his views were widely supported by even hard-core conservatives like my parents -- who would spank as a last resort. I, personally, have never had the need to spank. (Spock never recanted his position on spanking, incidentally, but instead said that he thought we, as a society, may have been too permissive. Spanking is a completely different issue than discipline.)

My kids are extraordinarily disciplined, according to their teachers, other parents, etc., despite having been raised by gentle parents. Perhaps the reason we could always find something to motivate correct behavior without spanking had more to do with the kids' innate willingness to please their parents, and nothing to do with spanking or not spanking.

In animal training, beating the animal is ineffective. Most enlightened horse trainers no longer train by beating the horse, and the results are better. My son is something of a "horse whisperer" and can administer medication to unsocialized horses quietly and gently and far more quickly than those who treat the horses roughly. The horses are apparently able to sense that he means them no harm, whereas they correctly sense that some others do mean them harm, as evidenced by being willing to administer pain (with twitches, etc) as a first resort, in the interests of saving some time. Many trainers have found that gaining the horse's trust works better in every respect than intimidation does.

In psych lab I worked with rats in Skinner boxes, and positive reinforcement was far more effective than negative reinforcement.

Perhaps raising children to be well adjusted good citizens of average to high IQ has more to do with how the discipline is administered than what the actual disciplinary action is.

I seriously doubt that much can be done with discipline to raise or lower IQ, (in its traditional meaning -- high IQ kids can be identified at very young ages and at advanced ages -- and the score does not change appreciably). There is some evidence that early experiences positively influence what we have called IQ (listening to a lot of music, for example) but there is overwhelming evidence that IQ is passed on genetically. There is a strong correlation between the standard IQ tests and SAT tests. Originally, the SAT tests were intended to measure only "aptitude" (thus the A in SAT) and it was thought, for a long time, that studying for the SAT was pointless. Kaplan proved that to be wrong, but nevertheless, the largest gains have been on the order of 10% -- most of what is measured appears to be innate.

And much of what is measured is of little utility, other than for convenience in directing kids to a particular college or career path. I happen to have scored well on these tests, but meet people everyday who have not, and nevertheless do much better at loads of things than I do. George Bush had particularly low SAT scores, but nevertheless made it to the Presidency. I think Gardner's multiple intelligences is a better model.

Physical violence is a continuum that begins with hitting with the intention of causing pain or humiliation. It can then escalate, and many of us have witnessed cases that make us uncomfortable, by our standards, if a spanking seems far too vigorous for the "crime." By the spanking parent's standards the spanking seems "just right." This thread provides evidence of that range, with several posters suggesting that having one kid beat the crap out of another is a good thing. Where I live, it was not too long ago that slaves were brutally and routinely beaten, and the consensus then was that such behavior was just fine.

I'd rather ere on the side of non-violence.

All of this is off topic, I suppose. One logical answer to the question is "Yes, it makes sense that abusing kids leads to them doing poorly in school (by a chain of events that Dr Spock proposed) and yes, it makes sense that if we teach kids, by example, to use violence instead of reason, reward, or motivation to change behavior, that this could lead to behavior problems that might in turn lead to problems in school. It would take one heck of a study to prove any of this however. But is spanking abusive? To me it is a slippery slope, and I have not personally found any need for spanking. So why do it?

Spock was at his peak of popularity when I was a kid. SAT scores were higher then than they have ever been -- we were getting ready to put a man on the moon, and had a focus on science. SAT scores have dropped ever since with a full 50 point re-centering being required a decade or two ago. As acceptance for spanking has increased after the Spock days, kids have gotten dumber. So there is a correlation, but again, it is impossible to say that the cause is renewed acceptance of spanking.

There are two conditions: 1. You have a kid who cannot be disciplined by means other than hitting. Then you have a serious problem demanding professional help. What are you going to do when the kid gets big? Shoot him? 2. You have a kid who can be disciplined by means other than hitting. Then use those other means.

What is so appealing about hitting and intimidating by force?

*"Despite its common acceptance, spanking is a less effective strategy than timeout or removal of privileges for reducing undesired behavior in children. Although spanking may immediately reduce or stop an undesired behavior, its effectiveness decreases with subsequent use. The only way to maintain the initial effect of spanking is to systematically increase the intensity with which it is delivered, which can quickly escalate into abuse. Thus, at best, spanking is only effective when used in selective infrequent situations."

From this.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply
Guru
Panama - Member - New Member Hobbies - CNC - New Member Engineering Fields - Marine Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Retired Engineers / Mentors - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Panama
Posts: 4274
Good Answers: 213
#88
In reply to #72

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 9:04 AM

"Spock was at his peak of popularity when I was a kid. SAT scores were higher then than they have ever been...SAT scores have dropped ever since..."

Does this not suggest that possibly Spock's approach had a negative impact on the development of subsequent generations?

Not that correlation proves causal relationships...

Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#94
In reply to #88

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:02 PM

Does this not suggest that possibly Spock's approach had a negative impact on the development of subsequent generations?

No. Not in the context of this discussion, at least. The contention of the researchers (which I personally think is suspect, but I have not read the full study, nor do have the time to do so) is that whacking your kid around makes him dumber very quickly. (Taken to the extreme, that is probably true: badly abused kids do in fact suffer from all sorts of developmental problems and mental illnesses). As Spock's popularity waned, and as as the country moved further to the right (starting to accept, for example anti-science as science -- such as the notion that evolution is "just a theory") and as science education in the schools lost funding, kids got dumber, one might conjecture.

Nixon, with his support for EPA and OSHA, Supplemental Security Income, indexing of SS for inflation, affirmative action,etc.) would be considered a near Marxist today. Despite his numerous flaws, he was smart, as are many liberals. Pew Research found that liberals tend to be far better educated and earn more than conservatives, but only 19% of the population self-identifies as "liberal". So maybe the problem with plummeting SAT scores is just the tilt to the right -- we have more right wing wackos reproducing. Who knows? Certainly down here in the south, where ones' brother can also be ones' father, you see loads of large not-too-bright families.

The real reasons for lower SAT scores may have more to do with the changing demographics of test takers than with the country's tilt to the right. I am almost certainly getting stupider as I age, but it seems to me that the kids in high schools today are just as bright as kids from 40 years ago (but maybe they just seem brighter to me because I am stupider.) My son did well in math competitions, but if I were to generalize, these comepitions are practically ruled by Asians. In our local schools, at least, Asians are over-represented in high achievement in music and math: in my daughter's violin ensemble, 5 of 6 kids were of Asian descent. In the very good schools, the bright kids are every bit as bright as they were 40 years ago, from my observation, and I suspect that studies back this up. States with low SAT scores often point out that their states test more people at the low end of the range in an effort to get more people into college... and although this sounds like an excuse, I believe there is data to support the contention. So perhaps it's not that kids are getting dumber, its just that the net is catching more fish.

And you are right, of course: correlation does not prove cause.

Even further off topic:

I used to be a "Principal Scientist" in a consulting firm. That meant I was "better" than the "Staff Scientists" and "Senior Staff Scientists." All the titles were laughable, really, because we did little real science. Most of us just regurgitated stuff that others had discovered. We were, if you really stretched the point, "applied" scientists, (and in fact the name of the company was Applied Science Associates) and we developed, for example, the "bible" of Instructional Systems Design used by the military. But, fact is, the ISD process works, and was based on many pretty solid behavioral science studies.

Behavior studies are, in my opinion, about a full order of magnitude more difficult than the typical "hard science" studies, because the variables are about ten times (or more?) difficult to control, at least if ethics enter in. Often, these variables cannot be controlled unless you treat people as we used to treat lab rats. (When I was in school, we used to open rat skulls to implant electrodes, and then watch them press a bar in a Skinner box, until they fell over from exhaustion. Although this was dramatically instructive, I suppose, I think that nowadays there would need to be more justification for such experiments. I cannot go into a casino without remembering those lab rats reacting to a random reinforcement schedule -- even the fact that the the people pull a bar on the slot machines is so similar... and the food (money) pouring out...)

The end of behavioral science that interested me most was the hard science end: Skinner box stuff, visual and perceptual psych, etc. But nevertheless, I have a lot of respect for scientists working at the other end, where sample sizes must be huge and time frames long to be able to make any reliable conclusions. It's difficult science, and I am not one to second guess studies, because just getting enough background to be able to say anything meaningful is very time consuming. In my experience, at least, behavioral scientists are not idiots, and it is also typically the case that the popular press distorts findings to make more interesting articles.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
2
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#100
In reply to #94

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:51 PM

and as as the country moved further to the right (starting to accept, for example anti-science as science -- such as the notion that evolution is "just a theory"

If as you are implying evolution is not just a theory then survival of the fittest could be used as an argument in justification of men dominating women. There is no reason whatsoever why the stronger should not dominate the weaker. This is, according to the Darwinian world view, necessary for the survival and propagation of the species, is it not? Why shouldn't men assert control over women if they can? In the absence of the Christian God, what moral authority would compel them not to?

Edith Schaeffer founder of L'Abri reportedly said, "The Utopian who demands perfection or nothing will always get the nothing and will do a lot of damage in the process.

As Western culture has discarded belief in the Judeo-Christian God, we have lost the most powerful philosophical-religious base for the moral belief in the equal value, dignity and rights of all persons. Secularism cannot produce an equivalent foundation. The Biblical world view provides a powerful moral authority for denouncing sexism, racism and all injustice as wrong; not relative. Rape, incest and violence are always absolutely wrong—not because science says so but because these things violate God's character and laws... Human outrage at injustice is not a freakish quirk in an impersonal and amoral universe. Our sense of justice corresponds with God's, because we are made in His image. And there is the promise that one day, all will be made right by a just and merciful Creator. Without such a hope, injustice is bound to have the final word.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 122
Good Answers: 6
#179
In reply to #100

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/28/2009 12:46 PM

Where did you get the idea that the Judeo-Christian worldview denounces sexism and racism? I don't think you'll find much evidence for that in the historical record.

__________________
Out of the nursery, in old age, ants war and forage. Seeking take what they can find - manna comes in many forms.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#180
In reply to #179

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/28/2009 12:54 PM

Hello,

Where did you get the idea that the Judeo-Christian worldview denounces sexism and racism?

In what way have I described it so?

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 203
Good Answers: 6
#181
In reply to #179

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/28/2009 1:12 PM

Groups of men will always hold extreme views, but here and there the light IS on a hill, and when you look carefully you will see how the Gospel eradicates all declarations of superiority and racism vanishes. Gal. 3:28.

Sexism has a plethora of potential meanings, so I won't address all the ridiculous ideas out there in the public square, especially radical feministic views. In Christianity, woman are not called to submit to men in general, but the marriage relationship is to be a reflection of the relationship between Christ Jesus and the Father, love and devotion.

__________________
Faith is not blind, it is supremely reasonable.
Reply Off Topic (Score 4)
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 72
Good Answers: 4
#190
In reply to #181

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/29/2009 11:36 AM

I am a man and I believe that Christ told us too love our wives like he loved the church, well we are the church and he was a servant to us and then He died for us and I treat my wife with the same regard, I am her servant and am willing to die for her. With this in mind she treats me in turn. Remember in the old testament where God said women would be our help mates. What he meant was that she would be a mirror to us reflecting back our behavior, another words she will be our teacher and muse.

__________________
Live in the moment, that's all you've got..
Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Anonymous Poster
#224
In reply to #190

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

11/13/2009 11:52 AM

Actually, this statement is attributed to St. Paul... whether or not he wrote it himself.

Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
17
Anonymous Poster
#24
In reply to #16

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 5:06 AM

Well, Blink, you've done a marvellous job of regurgitating the politically correct party line. The cultural Marxist apparatchiks will be proud of you, I'm sure.

And thank you for demonstrating how political correctness prevents people from speaking truth, or even seeing it. It prevents you, in particular, from seeing the difference between physical abuse and spanking. It may come as a shock to you that no one here is debating the merits of physically abusing children -- except, apparently, you. The rest of us are debating the merits of spanking.

People who can't tell the difference between spanking and abuse should not be allowed anywhere near children... but permit me to refrain from following further along that train of thought.

Rather, let me clarify the root of the astonishment you commented about. What is astounding about these studies is how deeply flawed they are. There are few errors more amateurish in the analysis of this kind of data than to mistake correlation for causation, and drobertson could not be more correct when he writes,

"Just because there is a correlation between two factors does not mean that one is caused by the other. A quick switch of the thesis points out the problems with this type of analysis.

Try this title and see if it makes more sense for you:

'Children with personality problems and lower IQ are more likely to get spanked.' "

But, of course, this simple common-sense explanation for the observed correlation would never occur to anyone whose view of reality is obstructed by politically correct blinders. On the contrary, political correctness dictates that the palpably false conclusions drawn by these studies must be believed in spite of their obvious flaws because they support the politically correct agenda.

Those whose rationality is not irredeemably damaged by political correctness would do well to pay attention to GKC's accurate and insightful posts in this thread. Especially when he writes,

"Unfortunately, some of the poor study designs are agenda driven, but if the peer reviewers share the same agenda as the author, the 'studies' get the sacrosanct status of peer-reviewed science."

This is exactly correct, and is one of the more disgusting examples of the decline of American science under the influence of cultural Marxism. But even so, that isn't the most disgusting aspect of all this.

I'll tell you what really disgusts me: the sick and twisted psychological tortures I see people inflicting on their children out of fear of appearing politically incorrect by delivering a swift, clean, effective swat on the behind.

The politically correct style of punishment turns good kids into two-faced, fork-tongued, passive-aggressive weasels. But, hey, at least they're too cowardly to ever resort to violence -- unless they outnumber you twenty to one.

Such kids end up as very poor examples of human beings, but they fit very well into the politically correct corporate culture and statist bureaucracy which are the spawn of cultural Marxism. And that is why these methods are promoted by cultural Marxists.

Reply Good Answer (Score 17)
Commentator

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Hutch City
Posts: 61
Good Answers: 1
#28
In reply to #24

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 7:57 AM

One of the very few comments that make sense. Bravo, GA

Reply
2
Anonymous Poster
#53
In reply to #24

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 1:03 PM

I wuz spannkt as a challd and ah ternd out oakay.

This has to be one of the most agenda driven pieces of drivel I've had the displeasure of reading in a long time. As a young child, I was spanked frequently. As a pre-teen and teenager, I was physically abused to the point of being knocked unconscious several times. I also graduated at the top of my class, both in high school and college.

I knew, several times, that my actions were going to incur the wrath of my father, who was similarly abused by his father in his youth. Did it stop me from going ahead with what I wanted to do? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It depended on whether or not I thought I would get caught.

I believe my upbringing did help me be a better parent though. It taught me how NOT to treat my child. When my daughter stepped over the line, I would spank her (on the butt only) and then talk to her about why she got the spanking. When I was sure she understood the reason for her punishment by having her explain it to me in her own words, I would hug her and tell her I loved her. She is an intelligent, well rounded and responsible adult now who is well respected in the community.

By the way, if spanking makes you dumber, does that mean all those people in the "spanking" movies on the Internet are really dumb? There seem to be a lot of them and they're making money, so how dumb is it really?

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
3
Commentator

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 72
Good Answers: 4
#85
In reply to #24

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 8:37 AM

Well put. I never had to spank my kids once, after they were three years old. When they misbehaved they got a quick swat on the behind, through their diapers, making for good padding, but it got there attention long enough for me to explain my actions to their behavior and I did it consistently. What I (my wife and I) was doing and achieved with all six of my children was building strong borders for my children not to cross, they have grown up to be peaceful, loving adults, they hold college degrees and live and work all over the world. They were great fun loving kids to watch grow up, By the way they all graduated in the top 10% from their colleges.

Look up an old study Harvard did with children. They placed a chain link fence around a play ground where young school children played every day and after X months they took the fence down and the chidren would not cross that line where the fence was. Not because they couldn't cross it, but they had found security in having that border. That, as parents is part of our job, dileniating borders for our chidren, sometimes that is a swat on the rear.

__________________
Live in the moment, that's all you've got..
Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#93
In reply to #85

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 12:53 PM

Thank you for adding true perspective to this otherwise seat of the pants issue

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#102
In reply to #24

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:57 PM

Oy-vey, Guest! Could you please enlighten us with the definition of Marxism? I grudgingly agree with some of what you've said (I too, am disgusted by "political correctness" -- the term itself gags me), but why did "Marxist" become code for "Obama-liker?"

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4514
Good Answers: 88
#172
In reply to #24

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/26/2009 3:10 PM

"Cultural Marxism" pretty much sums it up. Well said.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#225
In reply to #24

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

11/13/2009 11:55 AM

Please define cultural Marxism for the sake of my understanding your commentary.

Reply
6
Commentator
United States - Member - "Proud to be an American"

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bryan/College Station, TEXAS; in the good ol' US of A
Posts: 73
Good Answers: 3
#40
In reply to #16

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 9:36 AM

I only read the first part of your post, up to:

"Child psychologists have advised against spanking for decades. Even when I was a kid, in the 1950's, it was considered bad practice by people who cared about such things and studied child psychology and child development. Physical abuse as a form of behavior mod does not work effectively if you want a loving, responsive, engaged kid. Obviously, hitting kids teaches them that violence is a means to achieving control over others"...

I grew up in the 50's (born in 1951). I was spanked once in a while. All my firends got spanked once in a while. My cousins got spanked. Most of my school mates were spanked (schools in Washington state, Texas, and on Air Force bases where you have kids from all over the country) on occasion. More of us turned out OK than not. We did not develop violent behavior. None became bullies or have discipline problems. We never thought about using violence to control others. I even got spankings from a couple of teachers.

Your comment is too generalized. The only serious problems I have witnessed have come from unstable families...My wife's sisters and some of the folks they hung around with used those so called child psychology books, and the accompanying marriage counselor books. Both of her sisters have been divorced, her brother is divorced, most of their friends have been divorced; most of their children have had emotional and discipinary problems -- one of my neices committed suicide. Many of my friends and assocites who have had divorces and other issues that affect stability and security in the family unit have had problems with thier children. MY marriage has lasted 38 years, my kids are all well adjusted, intelligent and have good kids. They were spanked once in a while.

I have lived in a number of different places-- rural, suburban, and urban; from Los Angeles to the east coast of Florida and from South Texas to Spokane Washington and on military bases. I have seen a great many different lifestyles of many enthic groups. The bottom line in my 50+ years of observation: If the family is stable and the children feel secure at home, the better the odds the children will not have problems.

__________________
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong - A Lincoln
Reply Good Answer (Score 6)
2
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#57
In reply to #40

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 1:34 PM

GA...Stable, calm, firm, fair and consistent is a manner of conduct which sets good example and kids pickup on that.

I too was spanked and I deserved correction, my parents loved me and my parents neighbors loved me too, yep I needed to good everywhere. But a village is not required to raise a child.

It's examples such as a strong willed child at ten years telling the parent "go ahead spank me I already got what I want", or other forms of defiance that call for thoughtful contemplation on the parents part. Every child responds differently and some are incorrigible; one can not grow a conscience. Often these aberrant behaviors occur in families with little resourcefulness or understanding.

I don't think the average child is a sociopath...

In many situations such as low income and dual income households children do not receive the attention or quality of attention and aggression is a noted behavioral characteristic as a result.

It's a deep subject and not a by the numbers routine.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#99
In reply to #16

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 1:37 PM

Hey Blinkster, you sort of contradicted your own point: your parents were valedictorians, and they were spanked ("virtually never"). You and your siblings were 99th-percentile kids, and you were spanked ("only very rarely if ever"). What conclusion should we draw from this information?

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply
3
Anonymous Poster
#21

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 3:05 AM

everything is a simple case of "child emulating parents", and it all boils down to this:

"if you are happy with your self today, you were probably raised right by your parents."

if your childhood included occasional (and warranted) spanking, you will most likely also include spanking in the way you raise your children.

if your childhood was devoid of spanking, and still you like yourself today, you will most likely also not spank your children.

the simple fact that each individual person is unique, should already make us believe that no created and mortal person can prescribe to another person a remedy for a human problem. only the Creator of all man knows how the human machine works, what works for it, and what does not. we should all be reading His manual, then.

Someone, a very long time ago, very wisely wrote: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son; but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

methinks the whole thread should be OT.

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Commentator

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 78
Good Answers: 6
#23

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 4:33 AM

I find this astounding that this 'study' is worth discussing.

It smacks more of a researcher attempting to push an agenda rather than real science.

Sorry, I'm sure the papers are wearing all the correct window dressings and the text hits all of the right hot buttons, but if the experiment summary makes you smack your forehead...

You tested the IQs of three year olds? Really?

Mensa must be banging on your door for prospective members.

__________________
That line between Science and Science Fiction is where I work...
Reply
Guru
Australia - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NSW Australia
Posts: 1087
Good Answers: 23
#41
In reply to #23

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 9:46 AM

The researchers are a product of there own childhood could I hazard a guess they were not spanked as children?? Also a long with a % of the populations in what were classified as advanced countries, I doubt the family's of other countries would have the time or patience to promote such twaddle.

To digress the natives of the Amazon living in isolation seem to be able to raise children who love there parents and vice versa without such psychological twaddle.

So for the last 40 years Dr Spock's mandate has been followed by unknown numbers of families and yet I look around and find my self surrounded by a large numbers of dumb people, they reside in all walks of life unfortunately a lot of them in government and judicial and academia where they berate us with some of the most stupid rubbish that to my way of thinking is incomprehensible. A point in question yesterday a mother was arrested by the police for assaulting her child with a weapon[ read wooden spoon] her child was overheard by a teacher in school talking about it. If this is not the height of stupidity I would like somebody to explain it to me.

If this is the case where did all these dumb people come from? I rather think Dr Spock's prodigies are just the opposite of what this survey has produced, I certainly received a good lashing from my father when I was a young lad for playing with matches and setting fire to something which was not appreciated, it taught me a very positive lesson and as far as I can tell has not distorted my outlook on life. In school the cane was used on the boys one teacher was really into this, ask me which teacher I remember most vividly? it certainly focuses the mind.

__________________
Dont get on to the roundabout if you dont know how to get off
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#103
In reply to #41

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 2:06 PM

I conclude from this that corporal punishment inhibits the development of spelling, punctuation, and grammar skills.

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 519
Good Answers: 11
#29

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:07 AM

Yea I agree with most of the posts here. I was spanked a lot as a child and...

Why am I posting this again?

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 519
Good Answers: 11
#30
In reply to #29

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:12 AM

O yeah. I was spanked a lot as a child and I graduated high school with a 4.0 and I graduated college with nearly a 3.9 (degree in mechanical engineering).

My parents tried various methods of punishing me. Anything from time-out to spanking. I always found loop holes in the punishment or ways to pretend I was being disciplined without actually suffering (ie I would hide toys and play with them as soon as my parents turned around). With spanking, however, I found ways to soften the blow but the point always got across. It rarely took more than one spanking for me to stop a particular bad behavior.

Reply
Member

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5
#31

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:15 AM

2,500 low income moms surveyed....data pulled from one targeted group, a very small one at that, when considering the entire population of the globe is the basis for the claim. I wonder how many low-income moms were surveyed in China? South America? Somewhere outside of North Carolina? This makes randomness of her data suspect as well. Alas, what do I know.. I am just a dumb (must be I was subject to corporal punishment) chemical engineer. Come to think of it most of my engineering, doctoral, and barrister/solicitor (that's a lawyer for all the "spanked" readers) friends must be stupid as well. I am sure she knows what she is doing; she did poll ~ .00004% of the global population and I am sure she considered the demographics. Anyway, 2 other people agreed with her armed with data and citations...oh wait, my mistake, those were just opinions that must be true because one of them is in on "The best kept secret". Well, at least they spelled out IQ for all the "spanked" people.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#50
In reply to #31

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 12:41 PM

Thanks to Bliss for one sane voice in this madness. Here is one simple line for the, I-got-spanked-and-it-didn't-do-me-any-harm, brigade. Violence is no solution to our problems. To the guest on about the holy book, spare the rod etc, what about a quote from another holy man, "Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love.. Dr Martin Luther King The only time Jesus raised a stick was to beat the money changers out from the temple. Maybe we should try that instead of letting cops beat motorists. Then the money men may have thought twice about filling their pockets, whilst at the same time, bankrupting the western economy. (OK, lets settle for impounding their yachts and get something back from the money grabbing asses.) Children deserve better treatment than pain, and humiliation; which is how a beating feels, in case you smackers have all forgotten. Try a cuddle when they are out of line. Try and sing an old song, your mother sang to you, to make then feel valued, instead of abused. Use you petrified imaginations to divert them, because as a father of three, I can tell you, it works better than a slap. Trying to instill obedience, through inflicting pain, is folly. Better still, teach them that it is reasonable to challenge and question authority. Not follow orders, like a sheep or a peasant bowing to the Lord of the Manor. The cycle of violence must be broken. Children need protection. Gone are the days when a teacher at your local school could pick up a belt and beat your child; and a very good riddance to those days, and their kind, Yet, some still feel justified in beating and inflicting pain on their own children at home. Shame on you. Hold your heads and weep, like your children did. You don't like the survey? Tough. I'm buying it. Suck it up and reconsider you own moral ineptitude. Your inablity to show love to you kids when they need you most. As for Dr Spock. To bring up this tragic event in order to back up a feeble argument that tries to legitimise violence is indefensible. You owe Leonard Nimoy an apology. My siblings were smacked, so was I, but I never had to smack my kids. I broke the cycle of violence. My son is the only one of numerous grandchildren who visits, telephones and shows any respects to his grand parents. He is kind and gentle, and yes, he took beatings in the school playground from children who had violence in there lives, but at least he knew they were the fools, the predatory and the unkind, not him. I am proud of him. To the guest who is bleating on about cultural marxism. This is not a political or idealogical issue. It is an issue relating to the family. Leave the social scientist alone, who are trying to discover why there is so much violence around. 2500 is not a small sample group. It takes a lot of work to analyise this kind of data. It's not like measuring the tensile strength of steel. It is much more complex, with many variations. You need to narrow the research to a manageable control group. Here is my hunch, maybe it was the fact that you beat your child that led to my child being a target for violence in the school playground. So stop it. We want our children live in peace and harmony, without the threat of violence. If anyone is taking the easy way out on this debate, it is you who preach that violence is justifiable. It is you who won't listen and try to make change. Where has your tradition of violence within the family led us to?

Reply
Commentator
United States - Member - "Proud to be an American"

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bryan/College Station, TEXAS; in the good ol' US of A
Posts: 73
Good Answers: 3
#55
In reply to #50

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 1:13 PM

I will NOT hang my head and weep. Read my other comments... I did not beat my children. They were spanked occasionally. They are NOT violent. I am not violent. My grandchildren love me. I teach Nursery at my church. I was spanked occasionally. My children were spanked occasionally. My grandchuldren were and are spanked occasionally. I still love my parents. My children and I still have a GREAT relationship. My grandchildren love to come over and visit.

Most of the families I have had experience with being around that NEVER punished, only "hugged" and talkded to thier chldren about what they did wrong, had serious discipline problems with their children. I am very glad you have not had that problem. The punishment should fit the offense; AND the punishment for the same offense should be different depending on the child. Know your kids and what works for them.

__________________
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong - A Lincoln
Reply
3
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1160
Good Answers: 36
#56
In reply to #50

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 1:29 PM

There is a fine line between physical abuse and spanking. I do not believe that spanking is exhibiting the type of violence that you are talking about.

As much as children need someone to hold them and comfort them, they also cannot be coddled their way through life. Having no form of discipline (spanking or otherwise) may teach children that there are no consequences for their actions or if they do something wrong, they can get away with it.

Suggesting that spanking is 'beating your child' is outrageous. If you are considered to be 'beating your child' then you are not spanking them, you are physically abusing them! Be mindful that the hardness of the spank determines whether it is discipline or abuse.

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#76
In reply to #56

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 9:58 PM

Having no form of discipline (spanking or otherwise) may teach children that there are no consequences for their actions or if they do something wrong, they can get away with it.

No one here has proposed "no form of discipline." The issue is not discipline but the form of discipline. Why do you believe it is OK to hit a kid, but not an adult... or do you treat adults violently too?

Be mindful that the hardness of the spank determines whether it is discipline or abuse.

The same was said of whipping slaves. For some, if no blood was drawn, everything was fine. For others, if the welts went away after a week or two everything was OK. I would stipulate that if you can't figure out how to discipline without violence, then it is likely that you can also not figure out what level of pain or humiliation is appropriate. From my observations, at least, parents routinely spank until tears flow, and if a kid laughs in response to spanking that only angers the parent, causing harder spanking. Likewise if the kid seems "defiant."

If a kid truly knows that you love him and knows that he can talk with you, then all you need to do is say that you're disappointed, hurt, angered, or embarrassed by a particular behavior. That is punishment enough. If your kid does not "get" that without having to also hit him, then you've failed at establishing love, trust, and meaningful communication. If my wife tells me that I have hurt her, she does not need to follow up with a punch.

I have seen hundreds of poorly-disciplined, rude, loud, obnoxious kids getting spanked in restaurants, stores, etc. I have seen very few appropriately disciplined kids behaving this way. That would seem to suggest that spanking does not work well.

If you are considered to be 'beating your child' then you are not spanking them, you are physically abusing them!

I consider people who spank their kids to be beating them.

Given there are so many effective means of discipline in which the child develops his or her own moral compass that do not involve violence, why choose violence? What makes your kid so special, or yourself so uncreative, that you feel you need to hit him or her?

King was right. At every level, violence begets violence.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply
Guru
United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1160
Good Answers: 36
#79
In reply to #76

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 10:25 PM

I do not believe that spanking is hitting a child. Spanking a child is a way of conveying that you are very displeased by their actions. I define spanking as a swift slap to the butt. No marks or bruises. I also personally believe that using belts or wooden spoon to spank children is unacceptable. This is just where I draw the line. Do not presume that just because I believe that spanking children (within the terms of my beliefs) that I condone any violent treatment of any individual. And it is equally unacceptable to pass judgment by suggesting that I treat adults violently.

It seems to me that you believe that hitting and spanking are the same thing as you seem to use them interchangeably in your comment. I wonder, why is the child crying? If they are crying because it hurts, then it is abuse. If the child is crying because they feel humiliated, I believe that that is what the point of spanking really is. I am not saying that humiliating children is always right, but it is the times when I am most humiliated that I rethink my actions and opinions before repeating the same mistake. As an adult, humiliation of that sort usually comes via verbal reprimand, but this is a different matter and I am deviating from my argument or main point.

If a parent is easily angered when a kid laughs in response to spanking and responds by spanking harder, then they are a problem area. They need to recheck their emotions and try another approach with regards to discipline.

I also don't agree with spanking in public. Discipline should be applied once the child is removed from the situation. There are many different ways to spank your children. Just like there are many variables that alter your IQ, there are many different variables that determine how your child grows up as a result of spanking. Variables like, how hard was the child spanked? to how often? are questions that need to be answered before you can correlate spanking to rude, loud, and obnoxious kids. I don't need examples of how one spanking made a kid grow up bitter. There are outliers and exceptions to every rule.

I am uncreative because I believe that spanking is a valid use of punishment for a child for some situations? No. I believe that spanking is a valid use of punishment because of my own personal experiences with my parents spanking me and watching children grow up without a good structure of punishment. I am not saying that my beliefs will never change, but for now, I believe that spanking is valid as a form of punishment when used mindfully.

Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#81
In reply to #79

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 12:52 AM

I do not believe that spanking is hitting a child.

I'd suggest taking a physics course. Belief does not enter into it.

Others, unlike you, "believe" that using belts, spoons, canes, and whips are all just fine. There are several in this discussion who take that position -- one law violator, in particular, thinks a belt is just peachy. Presumably, because you do not want to be judged you will not judge those others. Nor will you judge the societies that carry the punishment idea further and cut off hands for theft. Cultural relativism and "it's just a matter of degree" would suggest that this practice is OK too, I suppose.

One of our kids was in the Cornell University Early Childhood Development program. Ithaca is a place where one rarely sees kids getting spanked, (because all Ithacans are Marxist, I have learned) but certainly in the ECD program kids were never spanked, and the level of discipline was far better than in the southern public school where my children eventually went, in a town in which kids were routinely spanked in public (and if others are like you, one could assume that kids there were spanked more frequently in private.) The ECD people knew how to control and nurture kids because they were exceptionally well-trained and educated in the subject matter (imagine that!) If parents read the child development literature, and are willing to learn rather than simply carry "beliefs" from generation to generation (as we carried the belief that slavery was OK, and that women should not be allowed to vote, from generation to generation) most will find that few respected programs such as that at Cornell recommend spanking.

I am uncreative because I believe that spanking is a valid use of punishment for a child for some situations?

Not necessarily. You are uncreative temporarily, I'd say, if you can't think of a better and more effective way of disciplining a child than a swift slap. But that is only my opinion, and I imagine that you are creative in many aspects of your life and also imagine that you are genuinely well-intentioned. I only offer the dissenting view here for balance. It seems that the good answer votes are strongly in favor of the violent approach.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sebring, Florida
Posts: 923
Good Answers: 25
#91
In reply to #81

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 10:46 AM

Hello Blink,

This is my good answer for you, and those who believe that mouthing off at little children is sufficient to get children to stop doing something that annoys those you may be visiting, or those you may be sharing space with such as in a Dr. office, etc.

By your shouting at your misbehaving children you are annoying others who must share the same area with you, even more than your child. Parents who discipline there children are rarely told not to come back with their children. However: I have personally witnessed parents of unruly children being told not to return with their children, to find someone else to watch said children. I have dated women with children, who I was truly fond of, considering even settling down with, (marriage) only to find that their children were out of control, "hopelessly" because mom didn't discipline them when they needed it. I have ended these relationships quickly. I have had to ask friends to leave my home, when I was married, and raising my own children. because they didn't discipline their children and said children were absolute "BRATS". My children would ask why they couldn't do as the other children were doing and not getting punished for said conduct.

By not doing that which is necessary to educate you children as to what is acceptable behavior when in the presence of others, you hurt your child. I am not talking about striking a child with a fist, wooden spoon or any other hard object. I frown on striking any child with a hard object or even the broad side of my hand. A wide strap looks menacing and if there is a double layer of said strap, it is even better, as it will make a loud cracking sound when the punishment is administered, but it actually is less painful than a switch, and unlikely to leave any evidence of punishment. We are not talking about just beating up on a child every time they get it wrong. After all we learn by our mistakes, even as children, but children will naturally test parental authority. However when a child decides to challenge parental authority, swift a decisive punishment is in order, not for the satisfaction of the parent, but for the benefit of the child.

Frankly, I have friends who raised their children your way. The wife is a school teacher, and a very religious lady. They have four children, three of them are now adults. One is incarcerated, and another has ruined his brain, all doing drugs. The younger son got the discipline that the older two did not and stayed away from the drug scene. The youngest child, a daughter, has seen what has happened to her older brothers and has learned by watching what is acceptable conduct and what is not. She can well be described as a perfect little lady. She has had to receive very little discipline through out her life, she is now 18 yrs. old.

Your obligation as a parent is to provide your children with an ample opportunity to succeed in life after they leave the nest. My children avoided the drug scene, and are now all raising their own families. In this world of excessive temptation, I believe that the record shows that, my method of rearing my children worked and yours may not.

TMF

__________________
The only problem with common sense, is that not very many people have it, or know how or when to use it.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 4485
Good Answers: 245
#111
In reply to #91

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 3:12 PM

Frankly, I have friends who raised their children your way.

You don't have a clue how I raised my children.

By your shouting at your misbehaving children you are annoying others who must share the same area with you,

I have never had to shout at my kids to get them to be quiet in restaurants or elsewhere. If there has ever been any criticism of my son, it is that he doesn't speak up. In my experience at least, it is the spankers who shout and scream -- it is all a continuum of failed discipline and inappropriate methods to gain control. If you have to hit a kid to gain control, you are probably doing something very wrong, or simply taking the lazy way out for short term gain without thought given to the consequences. It is little different than a bar fight -- if you have to throw punches to "prove your point" you've already lost -- you're a redneck nitwit. Sure, you can beat the crap out of the other guy, and perceive yourself to have gained the upper hand -- but a guy with intact confidence and self-esteem would have long since left the scene.

You seem to have surrounded yourself with poorly-disciplined kids. Most of my friends have charming, polite, quiet kids. You need to increase your sample size, by a factor of 1000.

Amazing as this may seem to you, I am not a drug addict or criminal, and did not raise my kids as your friends did. It would be safe to assume that they did many things wrong in raising their kids (as everyone does, including me), and that adding beating to the mix may not have changed things, but probably would have made things much worse. Serious abuse is common in families where drug addiction is a factor. If they spent their time shouting at their kids, then something was probably very wrong with their discipline approach -- or to be fair, perhaps their kids were sociopaths, and they did as well as can be expected. Some kids are wired for addiction, and become addicted under the same conditions as other kids who are experimenting. 50% of highschoolers have done drugs, but a relatively small (but still too large) percentage get addicted. It is easy for you or I to say that they are bad parents, but they may have done the best they could.

Shouting is not discipline, spanking is not discipline, caning is not discipline, mouth burning is not discipline, cutting off fingers is not discipline. In virtually all industrialized, civilized countries, spanking is illegal, and crime rates are lower in those countries than here.

There are very large differences between discipline and violence. Violence toward children includes verbal violence. My kids have never been loud in restaurants, unless the setting encourages loudness (as in Chucky Cheese). I have never had to shout at them, or "mouth off" as you say, to get them to behave well.

Well-disciplined kids are not too unlike well-disciplined dogs -- practically thrilled to behave well and get praise for it. My daughter gets a kick out of teaching our old dog new tricks and she is expert at it. Not once has she had to raise her voice. And the dog wags his tail like crazy when he gets it right.

I believe that the record shows that, my method of rearing my children worked and yours may not.

The only "record" of any merit here is the behavioral research. Obviously, you think you did well, and I think I did well -- but that is true of virtually all parents, no matter how abusive they are. The anectdotal evidence is just stories -- essentially BS. Real research supports the contention that spanking is counter-productive, and many well-respected organizations, such as the American Pediatric Asociation, support this contention, based upon the research findings. Laws around the world support this contention.

The only way of knowing if one method works better than another is to do the science. People always "believe" that their parenting method is best. But the people who know what the heck they are talking about, the behavioral scientists, say spanking is not a good practice.

My personal experience says that refraining from spanking produces kids that win competitions on the national level, that are 99 percentile accedamically, are consistently praised by teachers and volunteer organisations as being unusully polite, well-behaved, and genuinley engaged in doing the right thing. I know other parents who have used the same disciplinary techniques with simiar results. I likewise know a few parents who will spank under some condtions, and their kids turned out OK, too. But this is all annecdotal. The research is all we can use to make rational decisions.

There is a profound difference between letting kids run amuk, and appropriately disciplining kids. But don't take my word for it -- read the literature.

In this world of excessive temptation...

There has always been "excessive temptation." When I was a kid, alcohol was available, hookers were available, drugs were available. This was true centuries ago, too. Most well-socialized people do not find those things "tempting".

Sorry for the long post... I don't have time to edit it.

__________________
There is more to life than just eating mice.
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#114
In reply to #111

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 4:27 PM

Shouting is not discipline, spanking is not discipline, caning is not discipline, mouth burning is not discipline, cutting off fingers is not discipline. In virtually all industrialized, civilized countries, spanking is illegal, and crime rates are lower in those countries than here.

Thank you for pointing out that discipline is recognizing an order or code of conduct. Though lower crimes rates in other countries maybe correctly attributable to differences in what constitutes a crime than whether they spank or not.

Other than situations where safety is an issue I believe attempts by many parents at correcting a child's conduct in public is an indication of their incompetence, however as noted strong willed children will test your mettle and public venues are not off-limits to them. I would no sooner pull a child's pants down an swat their behind in the public eye than I would berate a subordinate in view or hearing of others especially his contemporaries.

Shouting has a very unsettling effect on all sensible individuals except those whom only get negative attention and they respond in more aggressive or confrontational ways, go figure.

In the toddler stages children and puppies have much in common, both good and bad.

Everyone should realize that any method a parent chooses to employ for behavior modification can be used improperly as can any other tool. Possibly in low income domestic situations parents may become overwhelmed as can occur in any situation especially when resources are limited and immediate social interaction is seen as burdensome. In perspective many have no concept of the pressures experienced by low income parents in much of the world.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sebring, Florida
Posts: 923
Good Answers: 25
#124
In reply to #111

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 5:43 PM

Sorry about that "Blinky", didn't mean to push your hot button with so much force that it would cause you to "Explode"

Allow me though to make this point with out you coming to a complete melt down. Clearly you and your family live on the right side of the "Tracks". You may or may not be wealthy, but you and yours are certainly living a bit higher up the hill than most of the American public. I know this just from analyzing you remarks and reading your posts. Likely, you have had lots of time to spend with your babies as they have grown up. More likely than not you didn't permit your children ("kids are the off spring of goats") to hang out on the "corner" as is often the case in city centers. And just as likely, you were a careful parent who didn't permit your children to associate with other children whom you may have determined to be trouble makers or excessively mischievous. Likely you are the model mom as were those actresses who played on the Donna Reed Show and Father Knows Best, the Brady Bunch, etc.

However , life stiles of those who live down the line, where both parents worked hard for just enough money to feed and clothe their children, are much more stressful than yours seems to be. I grew up knowing that there were families only a few miles from where I lived, who lived in homes that were less crowded than mine, where each of the two or three at the most children had their own bed rooms, and their moms shopped in the finer stores for their clothes and never wore "hand me downs" to school or even play. These parents and children knew that a college education was in their future because these parents were much better paid. The environment that children grow up in is far different for families such as I have just defined. My father got no pleasure out of punishing me or my siblings. I really didn't get many spankings in my life and neither did the others. However; we all knew that discipline is a part of growing up, spankings were the punishment of last resort, and if you got one you did something to deserve it.

What we did not learn was to hate our parents. What we did learn was that our parents cared enough about us to resort to spanking us if it clearly was appropriate. The last child I spanked was my son Jimmy, he had just turned 12 yrs. old. Jimmy was a good child but just enjoyed antagonizing his sisters and mother to no end. His mom had been telling him that if he didn't stop, the result would be a spanking.

I came home form work one late afternoon, and his mom met me at the door, gave me a kiss and a hug as was customary with us. Then she said" Jimmy is in hes room, and needs to be spanked. I said "OK" what has he done to deserve a spanking. His mom stated that he was just getting totally out of hand, challenging her when she would tell him to stop annoying his sisters, and just doing everything he could to annoy her also when she was trying to get her work done. (My wife worked at home). She said that this had been going on for some time and now it was time to put this conduct to a stop.

After I had consumed an iced tea, I went to Jimmy's room and closed the door. I was not angry. I would never spank a child when I might be angry. I asked him if he knew what he was being punished for and he said "yes" and related that he had been turning the light on and off in the room where his mom was working. I said, that doesn't seem to be enough for your mom to request that I spank you, what else have you done to deserve to be spanked? He then really poured it all out. He mentioned things that he had done for which I had advised him that he was going to get spanked if he didn't straighten up, the many times he had annoyed his mom and sisters. and just generally disobeyed his mom, the dumping went on for about what seemed 10 minutes at the time. Then I told him that this would be the last time he would be spanked, that in the future punishments would be much longer lasting. Things like he would not be permitted to use my boat to go fishing when ever he wanted to, or maybe not be permitted to ride his motorcycle for a week or maybe even a month, etc. "Jimmy said", "well", "I'm glad that I am old enough that this will be my last spanking", and I understand that I must be punished when I do things that I shouldn't, and I understand that punishments will not be quick, that they will be lasting, long enough for me to really get the message, but I know that I deserve to be punished when I do wrong. With that he turned his butt to me and bent over. He got whacked only once. Then he asked is that all, and I said yes. I do not enjoy having to punish my children, especially when I have worked hard all day. You got the message today, don't forget it. I do not enjoy disciplining my children at all, but I would not be a good father if I didn't live up to my responsibility. "Jimmy, Donna and Elizabeth, were my step children, but I was really the only father they had ever known"

TMF

__________________
The only problem with common sense, is that not very many people have it, or know how or when to use it.
Reply
2
Anonymous Poster
#131
In reply to #81

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/17/2009 8:42 PM

If you touch someone with your pinkie, you have committed assault according to the letter of the law. A number of years ago, this lead the federal government to publish some agenda-driven reports claiming that 98% of women were victims of domestic violence.

All this accomplished was to give the screeching radical feminists some semblance of support for their outrageous claims, and trivialize the plight of the relatively fewer women who really were being abused.

By conflating spanking with violence, you are blurring the boundaries in an equally egregious manner. How does this help anyone? Or rather, we should ask, whom does this help?

Your penchant for name calling is an equally blatant example of the sort of low-down tricks one can expect from cultural Marxists. You use the epithet "law violator" to describe some poor guy whose entire family was victimized and torn apart by a government sticking its nose where it doesn't belong and persecuting the man using a law the shouldn't exist. Once again, we have to ask, whom does this help?

It certainly doesn't help ordinary people trying to make their families work. On the contrary, it adds yet another layer of difficulty on top of all the other aspects of modern Western culture that make raising a family more difficult than ever before in human history. And most of these aspects were deliberately introduced into Western culture, in order to weaken its foundations and ultimately destroy it, by cultural Marxists following the lead of the infamous Frankfurt school.

It is not surprising then, that it is only the cultural Marxist agenda which is advanced by such tactics. Everyone else is hurt.

And since you don't seem to know what cultural Marxism is, even though your attitudes and beliefs were obviously shaped by it, let me clear that up for you with a few paragraphs snipped from another post:

Cultural Marxism is not Marxism-Leninism (which we usually just call Communism).

Marxism-Leninism is a system of political economics, which results from applying the so-called Marxist dialectic, developed by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, in a process called critical analysis, which uses it to deconstruct Western democracy and capitalism, and to rewrite history in terms of economic class struggle (and we all saw how that turned out).

In the 1920's, Antonio Gramsci and György Lukács adapted the methods of the Marxist dialectic and critical analysis to the cultural sphere and applied it to the task of undermining Western science, philosophy, religion, art, education, and, well, everything that made Western civilization stable and powerful and difficult to defeat by other means. The result is called the quiet revolution, the revolution from within, the revolution that cannot be resisted by force. This is cultural Marxism.

Now, that was quite bad enough, but then along came a group of sociologists and psychologists -- chief among whom being Max Horkheimer, Theodor Adorno, Herbert Marcuse, Erich Fromm, and Jürgen Habermas -- and they combined the Marxist dialectic with Freudian psychology to produce an exceptionally corrosive concoction called Critical Theory, which they use to deconstruct Western culture and values, and to rewrite history in terms of sexual and racial power struggles (and we can all see how that is turning out).

A deeper look at cultural Marxism and its evil offspring, political correctness, along with links to detailed source material, can be found in the rest of that post.

So, Blink, is this starting so sound more like your buddies in Ithaca? Yeah, I thought so. The mind-numbing chill of politically correct dogma has descended like an intellectual ice age on every campus from Palo Alto to New Haven, and Ithaca is no exception.

And you want parents to read and try to learn from child development literature written by people who got their degrees under these circumstances? That would be like consulting the women's studies literature for advice on how to make a family work!

Yeah. Right. I'm, sure the cultural Marxists would love that.

Let's all throw away the tried and true ways of running a family and raising children that have been shown to work, generation after generation, for ten thousand years or more, and replace them with the deeply flawed results of politically-motivated pseudo-science like the study this thread is about.

I mean, really, Blink, how stupid do you take us for?

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#80
In reply to #76

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 11:54 PM

I think that perhaps the use of the word violence may be too broadly applied with regards to discipline by spanking.

Violence:noun

1. swift and intense force: the violence of a storm.
2. rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment: to die by violence.
3. an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws: to take over a government by violence.
4. a violent act or proceeding.
5. rough or immoderate vehemence, as of feeling or language: the violence of his hatred.
6. damage through distortion or unwarranted alteration: to do editorial violence to a text.

I do not think those of us that are in favor of spanking are in anyway advocating the use of intense force, rough or injurious physical force, unjust or unwarranted exertion of force. The spankings that were administered to me hurt. But so did a significant amount of horse play with my friends. So did stepping on sand-spurs or walking on a hot road barefoot which I did voluntarily as a kid, although not for the purpose of inflicting pain on myself, but because I did not want to wear shoes when I played outside. I learned that my actions had consequences.

I am not opposed to, nor think it's a bad idea to use other forms of discipline.

Another issue that really hasn't been mentioned is that when children are really too young to understand logic and have a limited vocabulary(under 3 years old) they should obey their parents without question. That doesn't mean children should not ask why, but they should do so after they have done what is requested of them. It's not a matter of parental power over the child it's about safety. If I see my 2 year old reaching for something that will injure him (pot of boiling water) I want him to instinctively stop when I say stop...ask me afterwards why. Not ignore me and get hurt. He will learn either way. I am not saying to spank a child for doing something harmful...but for disobeying. A spanking (not violent whipping) is a lot easier to get over emotionally and physically than 3rd degree burns or being hit by a car.

You say "If a kid truly knows that you love him and knows that he can talk with you, then all you need to do is say that you're disappointed, hurt, angered, or embarrassed by a particular behavior."

How can a 2 year old truly know what love even is? How can a 2 year old know he can talk to you...he can barely talk in the first place?

__________________
J B
Reply
Power-User
Canada - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Chemical Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Saskatchewan, Canada
Posts: 103
Good Answers: 2
#92
In reply to #76

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 12:19 PM

I need to post replies to just a couple of the comments / arguments in the post above:

"Why do you believe it is OK to hit a kid, but not an adult" - Although I don't have a source to directly quote, I do recall reading about scientific studies that showed that the reasoning ability in the human brain is not fully developed until well into the teen years. This is one of the key reasons why (at least in North America) the legal system deals with children who commit crimes entirely differently than adults. For the same reason, it is inappropriate to expect that discipline of adults and children should be the same.

"I have seen hundreds of poorly-disciplined, rude, loud, obnoxious kids getting spanked in restaurants, stores, etc. I have seen very few appropriately disciplined kids behaving this way." - How would you know how the children who are not being spanked in the restaurant are disciplined when they do misbehave? If they are behaving well when you see them, then no discipline is required. Perhaps they are behaving because they know what will happen if they don't!

I agree with many of the posts in this thread that the study is so flawed that no conclusion can be reached from it. It does not show causality, since there is no reason to believe that the children who were spanked would have had the same IQ as those that weren't in any case.

Thanks for the great discussion. It's good to see that the majority are on the side of being reasonable rather than the side of political correctness.

__________________
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka" but rather "Hmmmm... that's funny". - Isaac Asimov
Reply
2
Guru

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Sebring, Florida
Posts: 923
Good Answers: 25
#62
In reply to #50

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 2:23 PM

You want to live in peace and harmony, you want that for your children and grand children too. Great for you!

My children's, children will go out and beat the pure living hell out of those who would interfere with the pleasure of your children living in peace and harmony. They have grown up understand that asking for peace from those who are not intending to let you have it, just won't get it! Some one simply has to be strong enough to protect the weak, and those who have not experienced the pain of the results of others ignoring the rights of those who will not defend said rights will never understand the value of life or peace.

For Thousands of years mothers have had to send their children off to war to protect their homelands and elders, and the right to continue to live with out being enslaved by those who would do you and yours wrong. Wishing won't make it happen. You seem to have lived in a very protective surrounding.

TMF

__________________
The only problem with common sense, is that not very many people have it, or know how or when to use it.
Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Power-User
Canada - Member - BC Born, Alberta Raised, Quebec (poutine) crazed... Engineering Fields - Aerospace Engineering - An airplane is just a bunch of beams... Hobbies - Model Rocketry - Had fun as a kid...fun stuff Hobbies - CNC - dreaming of cutting Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - PID ME!

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal, CANADA
Posts: 368
Good Answers: 10
#63
In reply to #50

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 2:31 PM

btw: Leonard Nimoy is not the Dr Spock being referred to. James T Kirk's friend was "Mr Spock"

Dr Spock did a lot of good and was firmly against many 'modern medicine' paradigms of his day. There was a period in 'modern' medicine when the doctors were telling mothers what to do and how to do it...becoming quite ludicrous:

  • Tie an in-labor mother to a table and push on her stomach to get the baby to come out...??? (This was still the practice when my sister was born some 40 yrs ago)
  • Bottle feeding is best (so why do mom's make milk then?)
  • ...go read some of his stuff if you want to find out for yourself instead of passing along hearsay.

Dr Spock said to mom's "you know more than you think" and did a good job promoting the development of relationships between mother and baby...more intimate contact with kids as respected individuals instead of little crying annoyances that should be sent to daycares or put in playpens in another room where they can't be heard.

He also said: Ultimately, parenting is not all that difficult if you use your sixth sense and discrimination power. To prevent confusion, ignore what neighbors and other busybodies say. And don't be overawed by expert opinions, including that of Dr Spock who himself admitted: " Every child is different, every parent is different, every illness or behavior problem is somewhat different from every other. All I can do is prescribe the most common developments and problems in the most general terms."

and, no (directed to everyone referring to his son), neither of his sons committed suicide ...his grandson did but he had schizophrenia.

The anti-spank position of Dr Spock is from his opinion that children should be treated with respect. I think that loving, controlled discipline helps everyone (regardless of age) grow and learn to take responsibility for their actions and behavior, whether this be a pop on the butt as a kid, grounding as an adolescent or a speeding ticket or jail time for adults. Personally I'd rather my kids figure out the relationship between actions and consequences earlier rather than later.

I think the 'right way' of parenting children has evolved a lot and will continue. In retrospect it's easy to see some ideas as silly, if not disturbing, but only time will tell for now.

__________________
kkjensen
Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
2
Anonymous Poster
#65
In reply to #50

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 3:57 PM

Well, well... here is another who has drunk deeply of the politically correct kool-aid.

I must remind you again: we are not discussing violence here; we are discussing spanking.

Your holier-than-thou posturing about "breaking the cycle of violence" is nothing but an attempt to change the subject in a sneaky way, to subtly blur the boundaries between two concepts so you can argue against one and make it appear as though you are arguing against the other. This is one of the standard mealy-mouthed tricks of cultural Marxist "critical theory."

And your disingenuous attempt to distinguish between political and ideological issues and issues relating to the family rings pretty hollow in light of the fact that the destruction of the family is one of the primary goals of the cultural Marxism, as set out by the evil geniuses of the Frankfurt school.

Look around you. It's working.

Regarding your son, you write, "yes, he took beatings in the school playground from children who had violence in there lives, but at least he knew they were the fools, the predatory and the unkind, not him."

The mind boggles.

How badly do you have to break a boy's self esteem, to make him feel good about responding to aggression with masochism? How thoroughly do you have to destroy his sense of self worth, to make him unwilling to raise a finger in self defence?

And how can he be trusted to protect his family, if he lacks the spirit even to defend himself?

Nothing could more eloquently reveal the true purpose of political correctness:

Political correctness creates slaves who are proud of their own slavishness.

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Anonymous Poster
#110
In reply to #65

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 2:43 PM

This is not about political correctness, it's about right and wrong. I disagree with spanking because I see it differently, not because I read it somewhere in a pc manual. I suppose if I object to the description, "dumber", to mean "stupid", on the grounds that it is an insult to all the very clever deaf and dumb people in the world, then that makes me a marxist. No it makes me a thoughtful individual who cares about words and communication and how they can be used to hurt people. Foster prejudice and bigotry. You are the one suffering from a form of brainwashing. Every time you see someone with another opinion you jump to a daft conclusion. I think the red scare has infected your mind and you see it everywhere. That's like me saying you are a fascist because you approve of spanking. Did I say anything about the break up of the family? No. I have a loving and extended family, thanks very much, who mean every bit as much to me, as yours do to you. "I must remind you again: we are not discussing violence here; we are discussing spanking" If striking a child with your hand is not violence against a person, then my granny was a virgin. Open your eyes! Call a spade a spade. You think i am blurring the boundaries? That's rich. It's like a mirror world sometimes. You'll be telling us next that beating your wife with a rod less wide than your thumb, is not domestic violence either. I am sneakily trying to change the subject? The subject is spanking, which IS violence against a child. You are in denial. You are trying to make this an issue of indoctrination and political correctness and divert us from realising that violence against a child is wrong, brutal and unnecessary. As for my son he was taught that if someone perpetrated violence against him, he should report it. Which he did. There is more than one way to defend yourself in a situation like that. That is the way to do handle it not lash out mindlessly. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Reply
3
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#127
In reply to #110

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 11:33 PM

Guest,

You say "If striking a child with your hand is not violence against a person .... "

According to Random House dictionary the definitions I find of spank and violence, no striking a child is not violence. Violence is intense , injurious, unjust or unwarranted force, I do not think anyone here is advocating that. Spanking is controlled and does should not have an extreme measure to it.

spank

–verb (used with object)

1.to strike (a person, usually a child) with the open hand, a slipper, etc., esp. on the buttocks, as in punishment.

violence–noun

1.swift and intense force:

the violence of a storm.

2.rough or injurious physical force, action, or treatment:

to die by violence.

3.an unjust or unwarranted exertion of force or power, as against rights or laws:

to take over a government by violence.

intense–adjective

1.existing or occurring in a high or extreme degree:

intense heat.

__________________
J B
Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
4
Anonymous Poster
#128
In reply to #110

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/17/2009 9:11 AM

Once again, we see the methodology of critical theory at work: first you blur the definitions to suit your purposes, then you use the blurred definitions to demonize those who don't agree with you.

You claim that it's "not about political correctness, it's about right and wrong." But that's what the apparatchiks of political correctness always claim: the dogma is right and good, and anyone who disagrees is not only wrong, but morally contemptible. It's not surprising that you would use this approach, but first you had to deny the distinction between spanking and violence.

So thanks to JBTardis for posting the proof that spanking is not violence. With a few simple references to the dictionary, he shows quite clearly what a grotesque caricature you make of the word, violence. You write, "violence against a child is wrong, brutal and unnecessary." Sounds so obviously true -- until one remembers that you are using those highly charged words to refer to a swat on the bum! Then it just sounds ridiculous.

You've distorted the meaning of the word, violence, to the point where it becomes useless to anyone who wants to discuss violence for real. I mean, once you start calling a swat on the bum brutal, what do you call a punch in the nose? A kick in the teeth? A wallop with a two-by-four? I could go on escalating for some time, but you get the point: we already ran out of words at the swat on the bum. This too serves the ends of cultural Marxism, by taking away the words people need to think straight and speak truth.

And your preoccupation with how someone, somewhere, might be offended by some word is another example of how cultural Marxism impairs people's ability to communicate: by constantly redefining which words are taboo. It keeps people off balance and walking on eggshells. The more people feel compelled to edit everything that comes out of their mouths, the less open, honest and effective their communication will be. Which is just what the cultural Marxists want.

Finally, you write that you taught your son "that if someone perpetrated violence against him, he should report it." Once again, the mind boggles. You taught him not to defend himself? You taught him to lie down and take it like a whipped dog, and then go rat the guy out?

By that logic, if someone breaks into his house, he should just hide under the bed and watch the perpetrator rape his wife, and then call 911 when it's all over? Is that how you think a man should conduct himself? How would you expect his wife to feel about that?

Reply Good Answer (Score 4)
Guru
Popular Science - Weaponology - bwire Hobbies - Car Customizing - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upper Mid-west USA
Posts: 7503
Good Answers: 96
#129
In reply to #110

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/17/2009 4:59 PM

Hello Guest,

I've taken the liberty to copy your previous post; the one in which you claim you're not duscussing violence. I've underlined the word spank and in bold the word violence or words to that effect and corrected your spelling errors.

Thanks to Bliss for one sane voice in this madness. Here is one simple line for the, I-got-spanked-and-it-didn't-do-me-any-harm, brigade. Violence is no solution to our problems. To the guest on about the holy book, spare the rod etc, what about a quote from another holy man, "Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love.. Dr Martin Luther King The only time Jesus raised a stick was to beat the money changers out from the temple. Maybe we should try that instead of letting cops beat motorists. Then the money men may have thought twice about filling their pockets, whilst at the same time, bankrupting the western economy. (OK, lets settle for impounding their yachts and get something back from the money grabbing asses.) Children deserve better treatment than pain, and humiliation; which is how a beating feels, in case you smackers have all forgotten. Try a cuddle when they are out of line. Try and sing an old song, your mother sang to you, to make then feel valued, instead of abused. Use you petrified imaginations to divert them, because as a father of three, I can tell you, it works better than a slap. Trying to instill obedience, through inflicting pain, is folly. Better still, teach them that it is reasonable to challenge and question authority. Not follow orders, like a sheep or a peasant bowing to the Lord of the Manor. The cycle of violence must be broken. Children need protection. Gone are the days when a teacher at your local school could pick up a belt and beat your child; and a very good riddance to those days, and their kind, Yet, some still feel justified in beating and inflicting pain on their own children at home. Shame on you. Hold your heads and weep, like your children did. You don't like the survey? Tough. I'm buying it. Suck it up and reconsider you own moral ineptitude. Your inability to show love to you kids when they need you most. As for Dr Spock. To bring up this tragic event in order to back up a feeble argument that tries to legitimise violence is indefensible. You owe Leonard Nimoy an apology. My siblings were smacked, so was I, but I never had to smack my kids. I broke the cycle of violence. My son is the only one of numerous grandchildren who visits, telephones and shows any respects to his grand parents. He is kind and gentle, and yes, he took beatings in the school playground from children who had violence in there lives, but at least he knew they were the fools, the predatory and the unkind, not him. I am proud of him. To the guest who is bleating on about cultural Marxism. This is not a political or idealogical issue. It is an issue relating to the family. Leave the social scientist alone, who are trying to discover why there is so much violence around. 2500 is not a small sample group. It takes a lot of work to analyse this kind of data. It's not like measuring the tensile strength of steel. It is much more complex, with many variations. You need to narrow the research to a manageable control group. Here is my hunch, maybe it was the fact that you beat your child that led to my child being a target for violence in the school playground. So stop it. We want our children live in peace and harmony, without the threat of violence. If anyone is taking the easy way out on this debate, it is you who preach that violence is justifiable. It is you who won't listen and try to make change. Where has your tradition of violence within the family led us to?

And now the rest of your rant...

This is not about political correctness, it's about right and wrong. I disagree with spanking because I see it differently, not because I read it somewhere in a PC manual. I suppose if I object to the description, "dumber", to mean "stupid", on the grounds that it is an insult to all the very clever deaf and dumb people in the world, then that makes me a Marxist. No it makes me a thoughtful individual who cares about words and communication and how they can be used to hurt people. Foster prejudice and bigotry. You are the one suffering from a form of brainwashing. Every time you see someone with another opinion you jump to a daft conclusion. I think the red scare has infected your mind and you see it everywhere. That's like me saying you are a fascist because you approve of spanking. Did I say anything about the break up of the family? No. I have a loving and extended family, thanks very much, who mean every bit as much to me, as yours do to you. "I must remind you again: we are not discussing violence here; we are discussing spanking" If striking a child with your hand is not violence against a person, then my granny was a virgin. Open your eyes! Call a spade a spade. You think i am blurring the boundaries? That's rich. It's like a mirror world sometimes. You'll be telling us next that beating your wife with a rod less wide than your thumb, is not domestic violence either. I am sneakily trying to change the subject? The subject is spanking, which IS violence against a child. You are in denial. You are trying to make this an issue of indoctrination and political correctness and divert us from realizing that violence against a child is wrong, brutal and unnecessary. As for my son he was taught that if someone perpetrated violence against him, he should report it. Which he did. There is more than one way to defend yourself in a situation like that. That is the way to do handle it not lash out mindlessly. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Astonishing how often we read of the topic you've claimed you're not concerned with. I can none other than agree you've blurred the subject with impudence.

__________________
If death came with a warning there would be a whole lot less of it.
Reply Score 1 for Off Topic
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#130
In reply to #129

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/17/2009 7:19 PM

I like the presentation.

__________________
J B
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#108
In reply to #50

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 2:24 PM

With respect, Other Guest, it's possible that the study is flawed but still drew conclusions that are not incorrect. I think those that are saying the study was flawed are citing the fact that the sample of 2500 was drawn from a focused demographic, ie, lower-income families. If that was intentional, the conclusion should state that there's a correlation between corporal punishment and poor scholastic performance, or IQ, or whatever, among low-income families. Not that spanking leads to low IQ among all humans. It was pointed out several times that confusing correlation with causation is a rookie mistake unworthy of anyone who purports to publish a "scientific" study. So yes, the study was unquestionably flawed. But assuming it's conclusion must therefore be wrong makes the same rookie mistake, doesn't it?

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#109
In reply to #108

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 2:39 PM

But assuming it's conclusion must therefore be wrong makes the same rookie mistake, doesn't it?

Even a blind chicken occasionally gets a kernel of corn...

Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - Time to take control United States - Member - New Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Mechanical Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa, Florida, USA
Posts: 2105
Good Answers: 87
#126
In reply to #108

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 11:04 PM

You are right in saying that just because the study is flawed does not mean the conclusion is incorrect. But for me the conclusion is invalid (even if it's correct). Because the study was flawed makes it much more difficult to accept the conclusion.

__________________
J B
Reply
3
Anonymous Poster
#132
In reply to #108

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/17/2009 9:55 PM

rocketsurgeon:

Not at all. We aren't assuming anything. We strongly doubt the study's conclusion because it contradicts well established practices in child rearing that have been shown to work well consistently, generation after generation, for thousands of years.

Common sense provides us with a very plausible explanation for the correlations observed in the data. Namely, that children of lower intelligence present parents with greater discipline problems. But no matter how sensible and obvious this explanation may be, the author of the study doesn't seriously consider the possibility at all. And this is such a glaring oversight that one really has to wonder why the author chose instead to reverse cause and effect in such a contrived and unlikely way, if it wasn't because it was the only way to reconcile the data with the politically correct conclusion.

But even if we had no reason to suspect that the conclusion was predetermined and politically motivated, rational thinking would still require us to give due consideration to the mountain of evidence accumulated over the millennia. And that evidence contradicts the study thoroughly.

So reason and practical experience lead us to conclude that the study is wrong.

The issue of methodology tells us how it went wrong.

And the political perspective tells us why it went wrong.

Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#137
In reply to #132

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/19/2009 10:46 AM

Well, two outta three ain't bad. However, I think you veer off into the weeds when you make assumptions about one's political motivations.

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply
2
Commentator
Engineering Fields - Manufacturing Engineering - Look for solutions before the problem occurs

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Missouri
Posts: 68
Good Answers: 5
#143
In reply to #50

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/21/2009 8:28 AM

Love Begets Love. Dicipline should never be done with hate, or madness but in love. Love for the child.

Pro 22:15

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Pro 13:24

He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Pro 29:15

The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.

As is highlighted in above verse, there has to be instruction administered as well as "the rod" to give wisdom. Nowhere in any of these post has anyone sugested that spanking alone is the answer. When we look at society in the U.S. alone, there are more violent crimes per capita now than there were 40 years ago when Dr Spock released his book. Does that mean that Dr. Spock is responsible for the violent crimes today. NO, absolutely not. Each person is responsible for thier own actions. The real reason for the crime rate to be elevated is that people ARE NOT HELD responsible for thier actions. They are NOT diciplined. Dicipline starts in the home. We can not expect the school systems to suceed if they do not have the ability to dicipline the children. The government has regulated dicipline out of the schools an is hard pressed to remove it from the home. This has ALL come about from the decline of religion and the constant move away from God. This WILL BE the failure of this our ONE GREAT NATION under God. Please note that all dicipline refered to in this blog is to be done with love, not hate or in anger.

Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#229
In reply to #143

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

11/13/2009 1:23 PM

I think it's arrogant and narrow-minded to think that belief in magic is the only thing that can persuade people to behave themselves.

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 203
Good Answers: 6
#230
In reply to #229

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

11/13/2009 1:36 PM

Now the wisdom of spanking is equated with belief in magic because spanking is presented within the context of a Christian worldview. I think your shovel must have broke because you sure didn't dig very deep with that response since this IS a thread about spanking.

__________________
Faith is not blind, it is supremely reasonable.
Reply
Commentator

Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 79
Good Answers: 2
#105
In reply to #31

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/16/2009 2:12 PM

Actually, I think it's one-TENTH of that: 0.000004%.

__________________
These little sayings down here are irritating. -- Me.
Reply
Anonymous Poster
#33

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:34 AM

Children, dogs, cats, other animals. We are all the same. For the little ones to grow up to be "good" big ones the little ones need to learn the meaning of "no" and "yes". Spanking is one component of the discipline that is used by parents. If parents use spanking (no) along with homework help, little league, "family time", etc. (yes) then properly used spanking should help with development and therefore help with the score on the IQ test.

If the parent ignores the child until the child has done something wrong then this "spanking parent" is really a parent that is not providing the balanced environment the child needs.

I suspect the bias in this story is that the group of parents included an above average number of "don't bother me" parents that spank and ignore their children.

Reply
Anonymous Poster
#35

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:41 AM

Well I would have to disagree with the study. As stated in the original post not enough varibles were stated or evaluated. I was spanked as a child and I was 6th in my high school graduating class. I have since then completed 4 college degrees, all with a 3.0 or higher (and I am still in my 20s), with one of those degree disciplines to be Electrical Engineering. To further add I have an 8 year old who I use spanking as a disciplinary measure with and just last year he skipped 2nd grade and has not brung home a grade lower then a B.

I think the study is a bit biased. For starters they only used low income families for research, they did not mention the frequency of the spankings, nor the intensity or if other disciplinary measures were involved. When judging a childs intelligence and performance several factors have to be taking into consideration, like their environment, available resources, morals, standards and values parents instill in them, etc.

Reply
Commentator
United States - Member - "Proud to be an American"

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bryan/College Station, TEXAS; in the good ol' US of A
Posts: 73
Good Answers: 3
#37

Re: Does Getting Spanked Make You Dumber?

10/15/2009 8:59 AM

I spanked all three of my kids (the youngest is 31). They always ranked very high in their classes, and are very successful in life... and have never been aggressive...although on of my sons was in Special Ops and went to Iraq thre times. He is his children's favorite toy! All of my children are "kid magnets". Children seem to just know they are good people. My brother and I were both spanked, and I think we turned out OK. In fact, I teach one of the Nursery classes at church (ages 18 months to 3 years old). Noone has ever accused either of us as aggressive or of below average intelligence.

__________________
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong - A Lincoln
Reply
Reply to Blog Entry Page 1 of 3: « First 1 2 3 Next > Last »
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Comments rated to be Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive ratings to make them "good answers".

Comments rated to be "almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, rate them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

Anonymous Poster (52); Barnie (9); Blink (12); bloodandiron (1); bwire (18); cingold (2); cwarner7_11 (1); Data (1); DaveB (1); DCaD (1); Del the cat (2); Dr Tom (1); drobertson (1); Duckinthepond (7); garth (3); GKC (4); glrusl (6); Jaen (1); Jaxy (5); JBTardis (13); Jim_Wright (1); jmart23 (2); kkjensen (6); langyaw (2); lodhi m f k (1); Manufacturing Jedi (1); rocketsurgeon (9); rommine (1); ronseto (2); ShakespeareTheEngineer (1); shriketexas (26); szwasta (2); TeslaFan (5); texlex (25); TheProblemSolver (6); titi-the-rabbit (1); Toomuchfun (9); TRex (1); user-deleted-13 (15)

Previous in Blog: Dungeons & Dragons: Geeky Fun or Gateway to Hell? (Part 2)   Next in Blog: Dungeons & Dragons: Geeky Fun or Gateway to Hell? (Part 3)

Advertisement