Bend the Gender Curve?

For most of the students who attend high school in the U.S., popularity is more important than learning. Also, the matriarchal school system is a dis-incentive for most young males to desire to succeed. The result of these two effects is that we get a false impression (based on test scores) that girls are doing better in math and science than they really are, and that boy are doing worse in math and science than they really are, in high school. Girls who thus go into engineering find that they will have to solve real problems, not just learn how to score well on an exam, and they are not really prepared for this. So, in general, boys who go into engineering have learned to think for themselves and are mentally prepared to handle real problem solving in an engineering environment. Girls find themselves struggling, and are more inclined to switch majors or change careers once they graduate.

Usbport, what you say is basically true. Also, the fact is that females mature earlier than males, so will be ahead in some ways of males of the same age during early and middle teenage years. Males catch up later. A further factor, as you mention, is that problem solving and the application of logic to solve problems appeal more to the male mind. Apart from this, many females don't like to get their hands dirty.

So, in short, there are real differences in the male and female minds. As long as any career is open to everyone, it is irrelevant whether there are more of one sex then the other in a particular career.

To apply so-called "affirmative action" is a form of discrimination, and is unacceptable in a free democratic society

Then there's the parental expectation. My Dad was happy for me to help him fix the car when I was young, but my Mum was not and I was often called in and told to "stop bothering" my Dad. One didn't (and still doesn't) argue with my Mum

I can the opportunity to learn, very young, from my Dad's friends who owned vintage buses, but a combination of having to look after my little sister and being told "not to bother" (see the theme?) the men, meant we stayed away from where the fun was.

I still think had I been a boy, this wouldn't have happened.

On the plus side, I did get taken down to the trian sheds as a toddler - a Shirley Temple lookalike in denim and a headscarf!!

At uni, when my bf's car had a flat, it was me who changed it (thanks to Dad's lessons); at the shipyard, the fitters were more worried about my fingernails than I was!

Getting my hands dirty was never an issue for me - being appropriately dressed and not ruining nice clothes, however, is an issue for everyone!!

Am I the only girl to receive a set of axle stands for one birthday and a padded boilersuit for the following Christmas?

I've noticed that the girls/women who display the talent and aptitude for engineering in industry, are often poached by other departments.

Whether they have some special skills or whether it's just to "balance" the other departments gender inequality I can't say. Certainly, many go on to be highly successful.

When they realise the long hours, low pay and responsibility a typical engineer puts up with changing over probably seems a smart choice.

Not all boys are interested in engineering, perhaps a lesser percentage of girls have a natural interest, hence the ratio will always be skewed.

This is not a comment on either sexes ability just their interests.

The same thing could work in reverse. Perhaps less boys are interested in hair dressing, so the ratio of sexes will be skewed towards girls.

That's slways been my argument - except I use nurses as my example - fewer men enter the nursing profession than women.

As long as every girl who wnats to study engineering (and every boy who wants to study hairdressing or nursing) is allowed to do so without fear of ridicule or worse, then what's the problem?

There is no problem.

Let everyone pursue what ever it is that makes them happy. They are not limited by their gender only society limits them on that.

No problem at all !

You clearly see reality, you accept that there are preferences by gender; and I'd bet you don't swallow that old rotten lie, that we men are all macho brutes that block women's ambitions.

I'm happy with that, but still wish some woman dared to say:

"Hey ! hold your horses, femino-bitch !! I have a husband, a loving father who cares, hard working brothers and two little gents of mine"

Oh ! that would be great ! I don't know if it would ever happen.

I have witnessed women chats where they're proud of their cassanova boy conquests, but fully ashamed if their girl acts like a lady Godiva. Don't let their girls go to the ball-room unless they go under the surveilance of their brothers (they better don't ask why, 'cus they're told "he is a boy..."). And almost immediatly start complainting about the macho behavior of their husbands !

Oh, well; there is nothing I can do about that; but I can certainly complaint about those hypocrats and disloyal men who say "yes, we are to blame for the gender inequality" as if such (if real) was not started at home by some mothers.

Yahlasit

My daughter is in her second year of a Nursing degree, she did an elective "Introduction to C#" and is now mad keen to drop Nursing and study Computing.

Sadly she's got a few comments from the condescending (male) lecturer "This is a bit harder than nursing", "you'll probably fail", "it's a bit complicated, so don't you worry about it", "This is so simple even a nurse could understand", ".. even the nurse is beating you".

She's currently getting among the top marks in the class.

A good question to pose here is why? As young children there is relatively little distinction between the likes of boys and those of girls. As the girls and boys age their interests diverge. However, when they get to a certain age society then tries to force a situation where their interests will again converge. I think the divergence is a nurture thing of the female parents. They appear to treat the very young girls differently, more along the lines of the classical role of a girl or like a barbie doll for their real life experimentation, and limit their access to other opportunities that they perceive as un-feminine. I believe these young women are raised to think as emotional, nurturers and passive-aggressives, rather than critical thinkers and aggressives, and through at first their mothers and then eventually peers in school. This is the more common role they need to fit into as women and compete with in their gender role. Women enforce this gender role as a group, it sets the structure for female authority amongst each other in a society. Engineering is just one of those roles that is frowned upon for a woman, being a housewife who works part- time in some support role is more acceptable still amongst the majority of women than being a technical professional, and apparently women are more susceptible to peer pressures than men. Plus there is the old fall back position I have heard many times from women i knew in college. They didn't enjoy the work and got married. this is a very acceptable role amongst women peers. However, a man would be a joke (to both men and women) if he got married because he didn't like his career choice and quit to be a hosue husband. The only way to achieve the equality at the college level is to change the opportunities and status structure amongst women, as they drive the peer pressures that effect other women. Men in part choose careers because they have no other option but to work. Their interests are driven by the attentions of others at a young age where it is acceptable for them to take risks and be directly aggressive in their activities, and this is continuously reinforced through out their development. Men are taught they can not quit, women are taught to quit if it gets too tough, no feminine, or amny other acceptable excuses. our expectations and treatment of children, and approved peer behaviors drive the divergence in interests.

There are many good points in your post RCE.

I think you are right on the role mothers play in shaping youngsters' expectations of themselves.

There is obviously a lot of societal pressure on each sex, but there also seems to be a built in personality as well. I reckon it appears soon after birth.

I feel it's my job as a parent to guide my kids into fields that utilise their strengths and cover their weaknesses (of course they'll thwart me and make their own decisions). It's all about giving people choices.

In all the talk of differences between boys and girls we have missed the first statement of the OP. The U.S. lags behind other countries, I think the territorial difference would be just as interesting a topic.

I think the fact that the Us lags behind is a good example of how parental examples and peer pressure influence womens decision, when you consider the conservative movements in the US towards a idealized perception of the 1950s nuclear family values that is more prevalent in the US.

Does it lag behind? I have to confess I don't have figures for college/university proportions of women on engineering courses, but the anecdotal numbers in industry are still ~10%.

Funny (if you're twisted like me) story:

One of the new women MPs was interviewed on the radio:

Int: Well, it's good to see more of you, but 20% is still too low a proportion of women in Parliament, isn't it?

MP: As an engineer, I'm used to working in male dominated environments; there we still run at 10%, so there are more women here than I'm used to!

(I may have paraphrased somewhat)

Individuals, especially your own children, should be encouraged (not pushed) to pursue whatever it is that interests them. Period.

Affirmative action of any kind, affirms nothing. It is ALWAYS exclusionary.

Have you ever been to any pee wee sports game. Push might not be a strong enough word for the expectations many parents load on their children.

If I had a thousand sons (or daughters) to live my life through, I would still never get it right!

Parents should build character in their children, the rest will sort itself out.