Hybrid... or Diesel?

Diesel most definitely, much higher energy to weight ratio and much less complex (less to break). but it does not have to be an either/or. you CAN make a diesel electric hybrid you know....

I agree most definitly diesel electric hybrid if you can find one in anything other than a locomotive.

Both should be prevented by law as wasting energy. Instead we should have transmission free vehicles energized by gun-engine directly clutched to wheels, as the gun-engine has 100 times better torque than diesel consuming the same fuel so it does not require any torque boosting transmissions and that would improve traveling on tank of fuel by 15 times.

Guests are difficult to identify, which is why the proponents of the so called "Gun-Engines" are always posting as Guests (some call them Trolls). Rarely will they put a proper CR4 name to themselves as they don't like being openly laughed at.....

We have grown to accept a certain level of "nuts" appearing from time to time on CR4, here is another one....

The Gun engine has shown itself to be a "fantasy" of ideas, only believed by a few simple folks.....So don't get caught up in something that simply does not exist or even work even in theory.

If it really worked, they would not be posting as guests, nor would they be publishing anything as it would be worth money!!!! Not adhering to that rules demonstrates how worthless the ideas are!!!

I am posting as a guest so that the "Trolls" do not have anyone to latch onto.....

If anything about this engine ever proves viable, or is actually even built, you people on CR4 will be fully and correctly informed by the Admin, till then "keep your powder dry!"

Happy New Year to all, even the Trolls......

Hi Guest; You were doing quite well until you got to "you people on CR4 will be fully and correctly informed by the Admin, till then "keep your powder dry!"

A dichotomy among others is; if Admin says it's now proven to work - we can then 'open fire'?

Hopefully!! LOL!!

It sort of fits in well with a "Gun motor"!!!

And who are you to tell me or anyone else how much energy we can use? we are paying for that energy, we can do whatever we like with it. we own it.

I am waiting for the lithium-ion batteries to start showing up in hybrids and then plan on sitting back and watching the fireworks when the inevitable fiery crash happens and the fire dept. starts spraying water on the flames......

What DOES happen if water is put on a lithium-ion battery to put out an adjacent, perhaps, gasoline fire?

Lithium is extremely reactive, it burns quite vigorously when it gets wet. Metallic lithium is usually stored immersed in oil to prevent any contact with moisture. They also burst into flames when the cells are shorted for any reason. Here is a video of a laptop going up in flames as an example of what could happen but in a much larger scale.

I agree with your analysis of a corrrectly operating diesel engine. Diesels are simply more efficient, Period. There are also vast amounts of benefits to using diesels for electric generation for propulsion too. Diesels typically have longer life associated with them due to the better lubricity of the fuel. they are also able to accept a wide variety of either superchargers and or turbochargers that help them come into tier 4 emissions requirements. There is also an already abundant supply of infrastructure to support wide spead distribution.

Diesel fuel is vastly superior in regards to safety regarding flashpoint temperature. This alone is a direct benefit all can relate to that all but eliminates many of the auto fires due to impact. What about a gasoline spill in the closed compartment of inboard engine boats. Possibly dissasterous. Diesel has to be heated or vaporized to a small particulate size in order to ignite. Diesel does not evaporate as easily or as rapidly as gasoline. Has anyone really considered how much gasoline is lost to the atmosphere simply due to evaporation. It is a staggering amount because there are so many instances and points of evaporation. Every time it is handled some is lost. Whereas if it was diesel fuel the percentage would be much much smaller. this alone would reduce our fuel usage over any given period of time.

Converting the fuel consumption ratio from primary gasoline to diesel would have far reaching benefits also due to not needing to switch between summertime and wintertime blends. There are plenty of cold weather solutions available. It is much cheaper to refine despite the fact that you see higher costs at the pump lately. The higher price only relates to demand and opportunity and having to switch back and forth between fuel grades at the refinery.

Diesels are actually cheaper to manufacture due to the reduction of parts. No spark plugs, no wires, no distributor no electronic spark management system either. they are utterly simple by comparison with their gasoline counterparts. The price that the dealers and manufacturers are getting for the diesel option is lopsided in comparison to the actual cost of production.

This nonesense about a "New Green Economy" is a buch of crapola too. The point of shifting to all electric cars is years away at best and will only be acheived with adding more nuclear powerplants. Going electric is being touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread. It is simply shifting the pollution point to the power plant instead of the tailpipe. Ask the people living near coal fired powerplants if they would like the plant to increase pollution there. As better and more efficient means of pollution scrubbing become available at power plants the all electrics will be more viable. We are simply not there yet and won't be for another 10 - 15 years either.

Diesel engines represent an easy immediate solution to a very present issue. It is immediately available and would be almost painless to implement. Diesel particulate matter is heavy and settles to the ground quickly. The rest can be resolved as technology improves. Real solutions to current problems are available now. If we can only get Washington D.C. out of the way.

Stepping off the soapbox now.

Previously, it was very clear to me that a significant advantage was available in choosing a diesel auto, if one didn't mind the different sound and smell, and if finding fuel was not too hard.

I based my analysis on the significantly cheaper lifetime costs that are available owning certain diesels, due in large part to significantly better economy and reliability than similar size and performance choices with gasoline engines at a similar price; and similar economy, but better reliability and less expensive than hybrids of similar size and performance.

When i do this analysis today, it is easy to see that significant benefits are available with select diesel models, but sadly this method no longer works for me.

I was naive. I am thankful for the recent comments in other posts by cr4 gurus like TCMTECH and SMEATON, that have open my eyes to the unfair ways diesel engines compare themselves.

What has been brought to my attention is that the significant economic advantages of owning a diesel are not fairly obtained, but instead ill gotten gains ot the sneaky cheating diesel engines. Specifically, diesel engines cheat by using higher compression ratios and by framing the comparison in terms of mpg in similar performance and size vehicles, when the more honorable comparison is really torque per displacement.

Things were so good before I was enlightened. I guess what they say is true, 'ignorance of auto superlatives, really IS bliss'. None the less, I am grateful for being brought up to speed, as it were.

BBB

Evil i dwell lewd i livE

"... Specifically, diesel engines cheat by ..... framing the comparison in terms of mpg in similar performance and size vehicles,"

I would have thought that this was what actually mattered to the user.

I would have thougnt that this would be recognized as obvious satire.

Not here, too many REAL cranks!!!

Re-reading it you are probably right, however very similar material has been posted here in the past that appeared to be taking itself seriously.

Start using the pills........quickly!

Unless they are somehow violating the laws of thermodynamics, they cannot cheat. there is no cheating, there cannot be. If ANYONE is cheating, it is the governments of the world penalizing diesel technology by over-regulation.

Why not go for a hybrid electric diesel? Should be better than either alternative.

I am not aware of any actually on the market. Why not? Seems an obvious option. Put a top efficiency small diesel engine into an electric hybrid car.

Rode on one twice yesterday. Both were city buses.

Diesels I have operated did not take kindly to frequent starting and stopping that hybrid autos seem to do. Auto should be an electric car with a diesel engine continuously charging the battery pack.

I AGREE! A hybrid diesil SHOULD be a "no-brainer!" I don't want a Leaf (--I think grid will be crashed, maybe several times), and "un-excited" over the Volt (--too expensive,should be $20K LESS!), and WOULD "line-up" to buy a diesil hybrid (-could, with much trouble, "grow" fuel for it, which governments do NOT desire, because of the difficulty of TAXING bio-fuel!). I bet several inventors have "tried"...and were DISCOURAGED...

I've seen many a Dodge Cummins with well over 300K miles and very common to get 500K miles out of them. Very reliable, and fuel mileage is good too for the size of the truck. I wish they'd stick a 4BT into a Durango or that someone would come back out with the small diesel trucks like we had in the 80's.

There were a few mfr's that had them then....

Not sure who does now.

Most one can get is by using diesel in SOFC (fuel cell) this allow maximum use of all the hydrocarbon to generate power and use that to run car and truck. By product is water and CO2 and bad gas comes out of the tail end. Efficiency goes close to 100 miles per gallon

There are no modern diesel nonsense. Diesel is XIX century technology that we still use. Something so old is outdated and not modern stupid.

First off, if it works better than anything else available, it is not outdated, even if it has been around since the turn of the LAST century. There is a reason why virtually ALL industrial and heavy duty vehicles use diesel engines. Secondly there has been a lot of refinement made on modern supercharged diesel engines, including computerized electronic fuel injection and new filtration/catalyst systems that deal with the soot. Emissions from modern diesels are far cleaner than those of just ten years ago. This is not your grand-dad's diesel by any means. But of course more complexity means more potential failure modes as well. There is a reason why older 2 stroke mechanical injection Detroit Diesels without all of the emission controls are still in high demand for skid mounted power units. They'll buy completely trashed engines and spend a lot of money rebuilding and re-sleeving them so they don't have to put the new emission controls on them. The energy density and reliability is simply unmatched, And they can even be used (with the proper modifications) near oil wells where explosion is a danger. Sure they are filthy to operate, but they are much lighter than an equivalent HP 4 stroke CAT or MAN engine and when you have to cart these things out into a swamp or airlift them into a forest, weight matters A LOT. That is also true in automotive applications because the more weight you have to cart around, the lower the efficiency.

I would suggest before you call people stupid, you educate yourself a bit.

You are the stupid dummyhead.

Just because technology STARTED in some other century does not mean that it can't evolve and/or be improved upon to be applied to CURRENT, MODERN, applications.

Electricity has existed since the dawn of the earth, and yet we continue to find new uses for it by directing in new ways through MODERN technology.

And you all thought that the "Cranks" were all in the engines......! Wong!! ( Yes I did spell it badly intentionally!!)

How in hell can anyone say in 2010 that Diesel is old fashioned and outdated......

Firstly Diesel is a byproduct that we cannot just place in land tips, it HAS to be used up in heating and vehicle engines and similar.

The fuel is probably at least 10% more efficient than petrol and is getting better as the diesel engines get more and more better designed.....

Why are most of the world's lorry/truck fleet using Diesel - because it is less efficient????? I don't think so!!!

Why are most of all modern ships running huge diesel engines for power? Less efficient??? I don't think so!!!

Also high speed petrol engines are actually older........or were you thinking of say an atomic power plant in each and every car?

Do let us know your thoughts please, I am simply fascinated.... Also let us know exactly what you drive.....

No wonder you did not use your proper name, you don't know anything worth knowing.....

By the way, I haven't used my proper name because I know people like you like to bite back....this way you can just bite into thin air.

Diesel is to make electricity using SOFC whcih conventionally run above 700 oC and electricity runs the car. One can also have super capacitor to store extra power generated for time they need

SOFC's however have a lot of problems still to be overcome. Lifespan being chief among them. Also even currently very low levels of sulfur available in diesel fuel tends to poison the catalysts. I would not count on them becoming mainstream for quite some time to come. Then there is still the issue of the availability of Rare Earth Elements Neodymium and Samarium which are essential for extremely efficient electric motors. China currently has a lock on the market. Same is true for LiIon and NiMH batteries. ALL of them come from China.
Also platinum group metals (platinum, palladium, rhodium etc.) which are essential for the catalysts, are heavy, expensive, and in short supply as well.

Sulfur and carbon poisoning is history of past there are few still left and people are working on this. This is now common for high reliable power sources over transmission line drawn power to run critical equipment and perform micro surgery in hospital and emergency room service as back up

Yes I am with you it still needs time to become common and that has to do with the new technology, decay and cost of research

I'd pick a small 4 cyl diesel with a supercharger - efficient for cruising and with the power boost needed to quickly and safely match speeds on the freeway. I think that green is important. So is balance of trade. It seems that in a effort to reduce our dependence on imported fossil fuels we are heading toward dependence on imported batteries and heavy metals. My understanding is that China has pretty much cornered the market on heavy metals. Certainly they are no less market savvy than OPEC, and can be expected to exploit this near monopoly to their own advantage. Since in either case we will still be importing most of what we need, the best answer is to need less. That's the best kind of green. Plus of course we will eventually need another 'Yucca Mountain' to dispose of the battery waste. Having said all that however I have to admit that the smell of diesel exhaust makes me nauseous. I hope there's a 'pill' for that.

Look on the bright side. You have become somewhat less stupid by admitting you learned something from reading CR4. Most of the time when I read things here, I also become less stupid!

Diesels are somewhat "green" technology because the take less dollars to own and operate!

I will not pretend I am something I am not, unlike many energy company supporters, I am a CEO of a green energy firm. However not a greenie a visit to our website will reveal this in our mission statement and our tips page. Common sense is a base line.

Electric Cars like the EV2 do work well, silly stories by energy companies that they are equally bad because of recharging are silly to any 12 year old who knows about solar panels, anyone who could afford an all ev can afford the solar recharge facility at home. Hybrids are a con to keep energy companies in the cash, use less, the price goes up, i need only point to your bills over the last ten years.

However diesel is need for trucks and heavy vehicles anyway because of kilowatt to weight ratio, so the argument is a moot point.

To anyone claiming to know anything about electrical engineering and physics, Perfect EVs have been around 50 years, way more advanced than what is put on the market, 5 hours operation or 500 kilometers carry 2.5 ton. where where?? they scream, never heard of it? electric forklifts have been doing this for 50 years, change the wheel size and downsize to a standard 1200 kg vehicle, and you electric car has been in front of you you whole life, any engineer who understands the power of a forklift carrying a load also knows that the ratio of the wheel change and speed is more than covered. Want to build your own, get an old electric forklift.

Well that sounds like a great idea....

...... except.....

...How are you possibly going to 'downsize to a standard' vehicle weight?!?!?!

The batteries alone on even smaller forklifts are at least 2000 lbs, typically much more. This isn't a problem with forklifts since they require the extra weight for stability, but several thousand pounds is a huge handicap if you are trying to build an efficient commuter.

BBB

God, a red nugget, a fat egg under a doG

Had already discounted that from the 800kgs for vehicle plus 436kgs battery weight only about 1000 pounds actually for a full set of 4 x 6 volt 700 amp, so 1400amp hours about 5000 dollars no matter which way you go be it 6 x 2volt or whatever but the weight is about the same. Modern deep cell are sealed which make its easier. Best vehicle would be an FJ40 lancrusier, tough enough to take the weight of the engine and batteries and not even lower the springs, Comuter, go anywhere is the key start point, why start at the bottom of the tree. The vehicale is sized and rated for the weight, the only real conversion is the drive shaft configuration from the engine, where half the batteries will go as well because of the available space. It is not patentable so there is no viable reason for our company to build it, though will eventually build one for myself, already have the vehicle.

a little self doubt crept in, so i searched battery weights for electric forklifts. Most were around 2000 lbs. I did find one very small forklift with a minimum allowable battery weight of 1250lbs. I'm probably just looking in the wrong place (mostly pictures of the plates on ebay). Do you have any suggestions?

Shouldn't have had the doubt.

Battery mass is part of the critical ballast in these machines. That's why they are configured so.

I use fork-lift electrics and low mass lead acid cells in my electrification of a really small Japanese hatchback. It's used as a local runabout only, and in that function it works well. Recharged only by the sun. (No, it doesn't have PV cells on the roof)

Other 'tack' is to transplant golf-car electrics into small Japanese or European road vehicles, so as to achieve design-rule roadworthiness on the road.

It's not easy but it's relatively cheap, and, used with half a brain of commonsense, very effective.

These vehicles wouldn't be considered for coast-to-coast touring.

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!

This boot strap application has been around since at least the late 70's early 80's. Around that time The Mother Earth News had a couple of articles on a small car that got 80 mpg after a conversion to hybrid electric power. An 8hp B&S gas engine ran constant speed to charge the battery pack, and a saurplus 24V 35 KW aircraft motor generator powered the driveshaft.

I was not aware that fork trucks had regenerative braking. Is this on the whole system, or just the drive motor?

Hi,

If anyone really cares to check out the more recent information, there was a contest held out in the Pacific North West, and it was won by an individual who purchased a "Lotus 7 America kit car" and installed a 4 cyl. diesel automotive engine and 4 speed transmission. The car was not all that aerodynamic in design, but the fuel mileage was quite impressive. I will keep you in suspense about that performance, and encourage you to look it up!

TMF

A link would be very nice of you!

Hi Andy,

I do not remember the link, and I did have the info on file, but my computer got fried and I lost it all. I will tell you that the info was posted on youtube and Mother Earth News. It shouldn't be that difficult to find. It is stuff that was taking place last year. Maybe Moose could help out with this.

TMF

I think it was called 'Max', and is linked to Mother Earth News magazine.

Everybody should build one.

Stu.

Would this be it?

http://www.motherearthnews.com/blogs/blog.aspx?blogid=1500&tag=Auto%20X%20Prize

#1 is at the bottom

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green-Transportation/1979-07-01/Electric-Car-Conversion.aspx

This is the like to the 75 mpg Opel conversion written up in 1979.

It is Diesel for me. I drive mostly highway and would not benefit so much with hybrid. Also there is a variety of fuels that can be used. Bio Diesel, WVO, etc. Since Imake my own Bio the saving would be even greater.

So next vehicle is diesel powered.

MPG will increase to a minimum using hybrid. Is this worth of expense that is the question. If you care for environment it will be good idea but if you look for pocket book then you need to do math.

Eh, not true, highway driving is actually harder on a hybrid than stop/go city driving because highway driving has little regenerative braking to help recapture the energy losses. Plus, for every doubling of the speed, the drag increases by a factor of four. So your energy losses to drag increase exponentially as you reach highway speeds.

Lets get it done sooner than later, with both systems in one car !!!!!!!!

A super efficient turbo EFI diesel with electric lithium battery hybrid assist (ala Prius)

Take a look at the "Opel Eco Speedster" on youtube and tell me what type of mileage you could achieve with a hybrid adapted to that little beauty !!!!!!

Thanks

This is a good topic, check youtube "volvopenta ips the inside story". Better fuel mileage, diesel, i wish this system could be adapted with an outboard diesel version and add an electric pod (power and gen) after the diesel engine but before the transmission. If we can add an HHO booster i'd be in heaven. Expensive for me but well done Volvo !

Such inovations in the marine world can teach a lesson. It could also be carried to the forgotten hovercraft. The "screw" efficiency of the twin props reminds me of russian fortresses. It seems logical, check the flying hovercraft on youtube, this is going to be my dingy for sure, my wife calls me James Bond when i show her these things, but after a while, she now thinks it's a very secure way of transportation for emergencies in difficult remote places in the Bahamas for example.

My friend and i were snowkiting today with 6knts of wind, the others were all siting on their bottox watching us. Check Flysurfer kites for lowend winds performance !

It feels just great to kite at 3 times the speed of wind. Could have done better with "sandpaper-ice" low friction and grip. We had a motorized parasailor following us, quite noisy and certainly not diesel. I wonder what his ratio fuel / distance is. Sounded like a skidoo engine, not hybrid.

Yes we can !