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Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

Posted June 25, 2014 2:17 PM by HUSH
Pathfinder Tags: autmotive CAMERA traffic transportation
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Red light cameras tend to create a bit of a controversy whenever they are considered. Here in New York, if you stay out of the Big Apple itself, it's unlikely you'll encounter one since they are prohibited in cities with a population of less than one million. And if you are driving in NYC, you're crazy rich anyway so what's a few red light tickets?

While red light cameras were first enacted in Israel in 1969, New York was actually home to the unfortunate incident which seriously spurned the development and popularity (and subsequent unpopularity) of red light cameras. In 1982 a careless motorist hit a toddler in a stroller and a media firestorm ensued. Politicians advocated that technology could provide an ever-watching eye over busy intersections, and one thing to know about New York City is this: they want to monitor you all the time forever. Just in the past two years they've prohibited large fountain sodas and selling tobacco to anyone under 21.

Anyway, these cameras are typically placed at intersections where there have been pedestrian accidents in the past, or where red light running can be a frequent occurrence. The cameras utilize induction loops embedded in the asphalt to estimate the car's speed. Based on this measurement, if the software believes a car is unlikely to stop for the light, it takes two photos: one right before the car enters the intersection, and one as it crosses. This is forwarded to a police department for review, who issue violations or citations.

But red light cameras have many, many drawbacks. Let's see:

  • Sometimes a bug, a bird, fog, or any other object can obscure the photo, meaning it's impossible to accurately identify a license plate. Some jurisdictions require a photo of the driver as well. When not enough photo evidence exists, some places resort to "snitch tickets." An affidavit, which resembles a ticket but is my no means a citation, is mailed to the presumed vehicle owner. If they're dumb enough, or exceptionally honest, the owner will admit the infraction, and this confession develops into a fine and ticket.
  • Traffic fines are a reliable source of income for small governments. When these governments come to expect revenue from traffic fines, and begin to notice shortfalls, red light cameras are liable for abuse. A town in Italy synchronized light cameras at adjacent intersections to coax drivers into either speeding or running the light.
  • Small towns and cities may choose to have a third party review red light camera reports if the local police do not have the manpower to do so. The legitimacy of infractions issued by these contract-services is often disputed.
  • In California, 7,600 traffic tickets that were issued using intersection cameras were dismissed, rescinded, or refunded because studies showed the duration of the yellow light was not enough warning to brake and stop the vehicle before the light turned red. In this instance, basic physics principles were ignored. As of 2014, a new U.S. national requirement states all yellow lights must have a minimum duration of 3 seconds and a maximum duration of 6 second.
  • Finally, and most importantly, hundreds of studies have been inconclusive about the safety effects of red light cameras. The consensus seems to be that how much they improve safety varies intersection to intersection. Most studies have found a reduction in injury-causing and t-bone car collisions, but an increased in rear-end collisions. While driver safety has improved, sometimes the result is a higher number of vehicle accidents overall.

Some studies and agencies have promoted other mechanisms: improve traffic light visibility and conspicuity; improve signage around intersections; program the light to have a brief all-red cycle; and monitor neighboring traffic lights and traffic frequency to eliminate unnecessary red lights. Ultimately, these concepts require some infrastructure redesign, and don't offer the revenue stream that red light cameras do.

So here we have one instance where a technologically advanced monitoring system hasn't made our processes noticeably safer or more efficient. Is it a problem with how it's been implemented, or have we finally found a task that our systems can't adapt to because there as just too many specifications?

Resources

Wikipedia - Red light camera

Federal Highway Administration - Making Intersections Safer...

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#1

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/25/2014 4:17 PM

NYC needs to install the cameras where people are likely to purchase 16 oz sodas.

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#2

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/25/2014 5:48 PM

You are only against red light cameras if you are an habitual red light runner/speeder or a ultraconservative that dislikes any government interference in their affairs.

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#3
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/25/2014 8:25 PM

Nope. I am neither.

I think it is wrong to put profit over safety, particularly if that agency claims as their motto "To Protect and Serve".

The proof is simple. If you really were concerned about safety you would post a totally conspicuous sign adjacent to the stop lights that clearly stated "Red Light Camera Zone".

If people absolutely knew that they would be cited for running the red light almost no one would do it. And that would be no profits for the red light camera company and the municipality.

That is exactly why they use stealth to hide the fact that there is a camera in effect or inconspicuously place any sign at all; for profit first.

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#4
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/25/2014 9:43 PM

As I said, red light cameras do not make money for the city, at least not here in Mesa, AZ.

Traffic cameras not profitable for cities across Arizona.
There are two of the pictured lights/cameras on 10 foot poles diagonally opposed at all intersections that are monitored here in Mesa. Hardly stealthy.

The monitored intersections are posted on the city web site, are not moved and are well know to commuters.

All radar speed enforcement photo vans display a sign clearly stating "Photo Radar Enforcement Ahead" in an obvious location, giving motorists AMPLE time to slow down, if they are paying attention.

I'm not making any of this up.

I deal in civil parking enforcement every day and I hear all manner of reasons why it's not fair.

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#12
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 6:02 AM

I am aware of the troubles AZ is having and why. Looking at the intent of municipalities, safety takes a back seat to profit.

In the end they got neither.

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#18
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 9:56 AM

Clearly, you do not understand. It was NEVER about money. Not in my city, anyway.

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#25
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 3:07 PM

I can't speak to your city, but the main interest in these cameras is revenue and that is how it is pitched by the companies that sell the lease. The song and dance about safety is just icing on the turd cake so you don't see what's inside.

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#28
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 3:37 PM

Chicago is a prime example...... ROI is tremendous.

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#33
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/27/2014 10:07 AM

Tell me about it.

And I seldom see the cameras flash for someone 'honestly' (if that is the correct term here) running a red light in the unsafe ways, blowing through the intersection, or making a left turn after the left turn arrow had gone red, but those cameras go off like paparazzi on the cars who fail to make a complete 'rock-back' stop when turning right on red.

Statistically speaking, the 'rolling stop on right turn' is the least dangerous of intersection violations, yet it seems to be the most ticketed.

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#30
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 7:50 PM

Could be. I don't doubt it.

They are not popular here with anyone but PD, who claims the help reduce accidents.

I've never bought the "slam on the brakes because it's a red light intersection" argument. No excuse for inattention and tailgating.

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#32
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/27/2014 2:33 AM

Good comment.

You forgot to mention, "going too fast as well!!"

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#35
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/28/2014 10:43 PM

I agree completely with you that there have been problems which might be described as selling off a little bit of public road safety for a stead cash flow.

.

I have to disagree with your contention that clearly posted signs announcing red light cameras are in use at an intersection would eliminate red light runners. Pretty close to your neck of the woods, in Orlando, they have a healthy regular cash flow from red light camera ticket operations, yet every intersection with those cameras is clearly posted.

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#37
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 8:24 AM

Maybe that is true, but I think that people are less perceptive than you might give credit for. So, what passes as conspicuous to some may be lost in the field of clutter to many others.

It just seems counterintuitive that people would willingly violate a law knowing there was a 100% chance of receiving a fine.

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#9
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 3:30 AM

Right!!

Why mark yourself off topic?????

It was ON!!!

....and true!

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#11
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 4:29 AM

So true.

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#5

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/25/2014 10:02 PM

These things are totally useless.....first of all they will ticket you if you are turning left and waiting for traffic, when you have the right to turn to clear the intersection....then they ticket you for turning right, when it's perfectly legal...They are in legal turmoil down here....

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2014/06/12/cities-may-have-to-return-funds-from-red-light-camera-tickets/

It's essentially just a sneaky tax imposed on the citizens....

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/opinion/fl-rrscol-oped0621-20140625-1,0,4798911.story

There are some lights that have such a short yellow warning it's nearly impossible to stop without locking up the brakes, an accident waiting to happen....

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/effectively-beat-red-light-camera-ticket/

http://www.ticketfit.com/blog/red-light-camera-tickets/

http://www.photoenforced.com/florida.html#.U6t-4fldWSo

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#6
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/25/2014 10:09 PM

"first of all they will ticket you if you are turning left and waiting for traffic, when you have the right to turn to clear the intersection....then they ticket you for turning right, when it's perfectly legal."

Quit your whining. They don't ticket when turning right. If they do they should be fixed.

The rest of your citations are from tea party radicals or sour grapes from injured parties or whiners who got caught!

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#17
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 9:19 AM

"Quit your whining. They don't ticket when turning right. If they do they should be fixed."

Oh they *DO* catch 'rolling stops' on right hand turns, in fact the red light cameras in the Chicagoland area were issuing more citations for 'failing to come to a complete stop when turning right on read when there is CLEARLY no oncoming traffic' than they were for 'running the red' through the intersection or 'making a left turn on the red because you were in the intersection when the light changed and traffic cleared for you to clear the intersection.'

Red light cameras are *NOT* safety devices, they are simply a way of setting up 'secret' toll roads. By the way, in Illinois, it is ilegal for any toll road to exist outside of those managed by the Illinois Tollway Authority, that is why we have the Chicago Skyway, the worlds longest toll BRIDGE. (It's illegal for a city to build/own a toll road in Illinois, but toll bridges are allowed at the city level.)

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#23
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 2:05 PM

"Oh they *DO* catch 'rolling stops' on right hand turns, "

stop throwing around your practical experience and quit you whining you sound like a rightist elitist you.......

but, seriously,........

Those camera tolls are nice, went through one in Denver a a couple of times...... it is nice, no wait, cruise through at 80 MPH?? and you get a bill for the tolls from CO a few weeks later......

I have been fortunate not to experience those cameras around Chicago that catch traffic violators...... And these cameras were put in for (2) purposes............. cash flow generator, and cost savings.

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#7

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/25/2014 11:14 PM

" it's unlikely you'll encounter one since they are prohibited in cities with a population of less than one million."

Huh? We have had traffic light cameras all over in North Dakota for years and our whole state doesn't even come close to having a population of one million.

Heck we are starting to even get them along roads out in the middle of nowhere now too! They have a small wind turbine and solar panel for power and run by radio plus most can pan, tilt and presumably zoom via remote control as well.

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#16
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 8:45 AM

That is probably a NY State Law, not a Federal Law.

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#8

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 2:22 AM

Not this old chestnut AGAIN!!

shall we sum it up.....

People run red lights.. it's illegal. Red light cameras catch those that break the law. Those that do break the law and are caught only have themselves to blame. Should the cameras be concealed or out in the open? Wherever they are put, BAD drivers will run a red light, only those that consistently run red lights are the ones that bitch.

As a footnote, in the UK, ALL cameras are clearly on display..... and people STILL get caught.

So how dumb can you get?

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 3:46 AM

GA

Exactly well put.

I have no problems with red light jumpers paying into the state coffers. Done it myself 2 times over the last 35 odd years!!! 1 in the UK, 1 in Germany.

I have also been caught speeding 7 times, all were just over the allowed tolerance and the lowest fine....also correctly so......no grumbles from me. I deserved all the fines I ever got......

Its easy to read down through this blog and see who has been caught out and fined big time........the mankers and the moaners.....AGAIN!!!

Stop driving if you can't handle it in a mature manner!!!

Even if there are a few extra rear end shunts through people following too closely or being inattentive while driving (or both!!), its still better than erasing pedestrians and babies in push chairs I feel. Which appears to be how it all started!!!

To answer the question:-

Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

No its not!! There could be some improvements I am sure, but basically its correct!!!

Keep up the good work Red Light Cameras!!!

If someones (a moaner!) loved ones were killed/injured while crossing on a red light, I am sure all of the moaners here would react differently!!! I know I would.

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#24
In reply to #8

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 2:06 PM

The UK as I understand has a very well camera setup. And running a right light can really not only ruin ones day........ and will definitely ruin someone's that one may hit.

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#29
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 7:36 PM

You just don't want to be in front of a red light runner when the light changes! (Got rear ended once, stopping as the light changed).

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#31
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/27/2014 2:31 AM

You and many other innocent drivers who obey traffic lights correctly.....at least you had a head rest (assuming a modern car), a seat belt on of course, and an air bag. As well as the acceleration came from behind, which is better usually!!!

I once saw a taxi, hit an almost stopped car at a yellow/red light, so hard that the stopped car half looped as it went through the air, landing on its roof 50 meters on after passing over the crossing road in the air.

It landed maybe 20 meters in front of me! Quite a shock I can tell you.

Car Driver was OK. Taxi driver not, he did not even have his seat belt on and the airbag nearly tore his head off. Massive injuries to head, vertebrae and chest!!! He deserved it.

I actually hate most Taxi drivers, too fast and not enough local language, just like NY!!!

After asking twice for them to slow down, I have been known to get out (before the destination in some cases) and pay only the meter, no tip. That gets their attention.....I have done that in Germany, Italy and the USA......

(Also, I can say a colorful "Go forth and multiply" in several languages if needed too!)

Taxi and bus (and even truck I believe) drivers and their passengers are stupidly not required by German law to wear safety belts here. No logic to that!!!

The ADAC (German equivalent to the UK AA and the US AAA), many years ago had a short bit of track, with a car seat mounted on steel wheels, so that the track could be raised at one end to increase the speed of the seat into a set of buffers.

They used it on passersby at big exhibitions, to show how hard it is to hold yourself in your seat in the event of a sudden stop/crash, when the seat belt is not buckled.

Then, when the "passenger" had said that he felt he could no longer hold himself in physically, he/she was asked "what speed was he thinking he was going at...?"

Guesses ranged from 25 to 50 MPH or so.....(If I remember correctly.)

The "record" speed of the strongest person holding on before he gave up was 13 KMH or around 8 MPH!!! I do remember that!!!

In ONLY a 20MPH crash, the deceleration is similar (I am told) to jumping out of a 3rd floor window (through a glass window/windscreen).......now would you do that????

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#34
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/28/2014 7:37 PM

People run red lights.. it's illegal.

...or at least, that's what the equipment says, if the equipment functions flawlessly, 100% of the time.

Red light cameras catch those that break the law.

...and sometimes those that aren't breaking the law.

Those that do break the law and are caught only have themselves to blame.

...or faulty equipment, or a friend who borrowed their car, or mud on another car's license plate, or an overly-zealous bureaucrat, or a company prying dollars off the local municipality.

Wherever they are put, BAD drivers will run a red light, only those that consistently run red lights are the ones that bitch.

...though actually most of the people who bitch are safe drivers who think the whole thing is idiotic and has nothing to do with the safety issue given as the justification for these (attempted) revenue schemes.

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#13

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 7:52 AM

Red light cameras don't stop bad drivers from driving badly....I don't have any red light tickets...innocent people are being ticketed and it's creating problems for them and their families....In some cases people are unaware that they have been ticketed because the notification was sent to a former address, then their license has been suspended for non-payment of the ticket, without their knowledge, leading to embarrassing and expensive fixes....Some of the redlight cameras do not discriminate between legal and illegal presence in the intersection, so it's possible to be ticketed when you have done nothing wrong, have your license suspended leading to a costly legal battle that completely disrupts your life for no good reason.....Bad drivers are a fact of life, tickets won't stop them....

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#26
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 3:10 PM

Or in the case in Arizona guilty people simply ignore the fines and there are just too many of them for the state to do anything. The compliance rate is pretty low.

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#14

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 7:58 AM

They had this where i live, coastal Texas, but was voted out. A study performed showed that accident rates went UP not DOWN. These systems are bankrolled by large banks and little of the money stays in the community.

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#15

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 8:26 AM

I spend a small fraction of my driving life in NY and even a smaller fraction in NYC. Yet this is where all my traffic violations have occurred including those red light camera citations. You are timed to the millisecond, and it makes no difference if you are stuck behind a slower vehicle. I simply try to avoid New York or pay whatever fine they decide to impose.

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#19

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 10:38 AM

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/32/3236.asp

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#21
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 12:32 PM

Exactly. it's all about the money...City governments have found a new source of revenues, and the public safety be damned...

"The Australian firm Redflex issues $479 tickets at five city intersections, but the city failed to produce accident data justifying use of the devices as a legitimate safety measure. The jury noted that red light cameras are the fourth most important municipal revenue source behind car taxes and property taxes."

"After a year of use, red light cameras have failed to deliver the promised safety benefits in Baytown, Texas. The Houston suburb activated the majority of its cameras on July 13, 2008. Since then, the number of accidents at eight camera locations has increased 40 percent, contrary to predictions from city officials. The increase in accidents has not been in minor "fender benders," as is frequently claimed by photo ticketing advocates. Rather, the number of collisions resulting in an injury jumped 75 percent. Rear end collisions increased 39 percent. Results from comprehensive, independent studies elsewhere in the country have yielded similar results."

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/44/4439.asp

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#20

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 11:29 AM

I wonder whether one approach to this problem would be to ONLY ticket those drivers who are multiple offenders.

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#22
In reply to #20

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 12:57 PM

Nope! I was in the parking lot at Walmart (don't ask) and i saw one of the accidents. It was a lady who had received a ticket from that camera previously because the yellow light time was at the minimum. She braked sharply when the yellow light came on and was rear ended. Another happened to a friend of mine when he was behind a tractor trailer and could not see the light due to the truck, the red came on and he was just outside the line.

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#27
In reply to #22

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/26/2014 3:34 PM

If drivers kept a greater distance, instead of tailgating, neither of these would have happened.....its the biggest single failure of drivers all over it would seem. It gets my goat!!

When someone is too close, I add the missing meters behind me to the follow distance between me and the car in front........

So the follower is just at the same point on the road as he would have been if he had kept a correct distance. Maybe even a few feet behind!!

Some get encouraged to overtake as the gap in front of me is just TOO tempting!!

I always say, I like to look at a "pretty rear-end" (I call it something else in reality!!) from behind.......except some of these are guys....UGH!! But I still prefer them in front!!!

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#36

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 7:15 AM

Ye Gods and little fishes people.. What is wrong with you all?

I've read just about every excuse know to man WHY we should NOT have a "Red Light" cameras...

"I got rear ended" seen to be the most common excuse! Is it your fault? No! The ice hole that ran into you is at fault.. and most of the whining is coming from the USA.... Well try this when driving next time... "Pay attention".. Stop texting, talking on the phone, drinking coffee, putting your tie on, getting changed, slapping the kids, changing diapers, am I making a point? The list could go on!

I think y'all ought to look at your method of teaching babies how to drive! Yes babies. At 15 years of age they just about know how to tie shoelaces.. and you give them keys to a killing machine! Get a grip!

Then you give MINIMUM instructions of vehicle operation.

Teach them the basics of driving first! Teach them to drive at the correct speed, observing the speed limits. Teach young drivers stopping distances, teach them how to stop correctly, WITHOUT skidding.. they are not in the movies!

Lastly.. someone hand out the manual to the 'Mark 1 Eyeball'. It's only been around for a few million years, and still many people don't know how to use it.. and that is the problem.... you look, but you do not see!

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 8:28 AM

Yesterday I saw someone not only texting and driving in a state where it is illegal, but they had a Siamese cat in their lap, too.

Unfortunately I did not have the camera read.

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#39
In reply to #38

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 10:31 AM

I rest my case!!

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#41
In reply to #38

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 11:46 AM

Its not often you see a Pussy behind a steering wheel.....

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#40
In reply to #36

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 11:45 AM

I just HAD to give you a GA. You also made me laugh!!

The excuses I have read here are simply ALL totally laughable.....

We have all sorts of cameras here in Europe for speed, traffic light violations and the rest.

According to Tom Tom for their software, there are "camera locations and real-time updates of 175,000 mobile* speed camera locations across Europe."

How many there are in the USA I haven't a clue.....it would be good to be able to compare!!

You really ONLY need to use your eyes, understand the law, keep your distance and above all, keep to the speed limit and most of the problems never ever happen....at least the "self made ones!"

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#42
In reply to #40

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 11:13 PM

"...The excuses I have read here are simply ALL totally laughable........"

.

De gustibus non est disputandum....but people injured in auto accidents is not really that funny to me, especially an increase in accidents related to the government making things more hazardous in order to improve a source of revenue.

.

Sounds preposterous, right? ....Must be the delusions of a paranoid conspiriac, right? Not exactly. Here is an investigation that revealed Florida quietly struck down portions of laws that had previously kept yellow light times longer and then lowered the yellow light duration with emphasis in areas and corridors with red light cameras.

.

Other locations have also been caught doing very similar things....exposing automobile occupants to increased danger to bolster revenue from tickets.

.

It seems fairly clear that shortening yellow duration increases danger. It also isn't difficult to understand why red light cameras motivate officials to shorten yellow duration. The thing I am having trouble with is, why any of that would encourage laughter.

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#43
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/29/2014 11:57 PM

I started to rebut your arguments, but decided that it wasn't worth the effort.
There are ample arguments on both side of every debate these days.

Most not nearly as civil as in years past.

My position is well known. I'm for red light and speeding cameras because attentive drivers who do not speed and cause accidents should not have to pay for the accidents caused by texters, speeders, makeup appliers, etc.

Man arrested in 147 mph Loop 101 violation (IN A HYUNDAI!)

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 12:55 AM

I agree that the innocent should whenever possible not have to pay costs resulting from misconduct of the stupid, evil or negligent.

.

My argument against red light cameras is actually that very same argument. The thing is, with adequate yellow light duration, the revenue from tickets issued is often insufficient to pay for the red light camera system, so the system becomes a burden on the tax payer, most of whom are not runners of red lights...at least when the yellows are of sufficient duration.

.

When yellow light duration is changed from too short to sufficiently long, reductions in ticket have exceeded 90% in many cases, and tickets may not exceed one per day.

.

Perhaps the systems should be less expensive. Perhaps issuing tickets should be more lucrative. It certainly shouldn't remain the choice of endangering people or just adding to already problematic budgets.

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#47
In reply to #44

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 5:01 AM

It was too tempting to ignore, apologies up front if I ruffle your feathers further!!

When yellow light duration is changed from too short to sufficiently long, reductions in ticket have exceeded 90% in many cases, and tickets may not exceed one per day.

So slowing the yellow is a good idea in allowing the brainless speedsters (some of whom may be drunk or on "wakky bakky" or similar/both), time to allow their brains to start functioning???? (The USA has many Police programs on their TV showing footage of such offenders DAILY!!!) Think pedestrians!

Perhaps the systems should be less expensive. Perhaps issuing tickets should be more lucrative. It certainly shouldn't remain the choice of endangering people or just adding to already problematic budgets.

I still maintain, that even if the yellow phase is short, you cannot allow cars to cross when possibly pedestrians could be killed or injured. They are completely unprotected....The drivers must adapt to the situation, maybe also vote new local government, accept more RAs and less lights....which I prefer myself as they work in all weathers, don't need much maintenance (cut the grass occasionally on the big ones, sweep the tarmac on the small ones), and do not need electrical power to still work......

The biggest problem is getting some US citizens to accept RAs.....Germans generally don't like them either, but its getting far better with the younger drivers and the old ones dying off!!!!

Remember, the USA, with its huge population has fewer RAs than almost any European country.....

Here are a few US whitepapers on RAs and their benefit to the general community, one of which is speeding up traffic by the way!!:-

Roundabouts in the USA

Roundabouts in the USA 2

Roundabouts in the USA 3

I searched on Google using "how many roundabouts installed in the USA?" as a search parameter. There are dozens of positive mentions......very few negative....

Maybe that could be an answer to most of the red light camera problems where you live?

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 6:39 AM

while I think roundabout are good, MOST American drivers I know, are totally confused with these little"obstacles".... In the UK, to assist traffic flow we now have .. yep you guess it, Traffic lights on roundabouts. However these only work at peak traffic times, early rush hour and late afternoons! Yes they to have the dreaded cameras, as you STILL have the numpty that wants to "race the lights"

So the only way to effect a change in driving habits as there are some that feel they are ABOVE the law and red lights do not apply to them, is to hit those offending drivers in the pocket.

So there are a few that get caught that did not break the law! so you all say! Well that's what the law is about.. Prove you are innocent... and now you can buy cheap in-car video cameras, and video evidence is now accepted in many courts.

In the UK, drivers are STILL taught that you MUST be prepared to stop at Yellow, and if you are going at the correct speed for the road you are traveling on, then you will have more than enough time to stop.

Learn to drive properly, follow the highway code, stick to the speed limits and you will never get a ticket.

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#53
In reply to #48

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 7:48 AM

I am proud to be one of the first to give you a GA. Good post!

Remember also, that the RAs with lights work even with a power failure, as they do in off peak times.........

But I tend to generally disagree with the lights on RAs as usually all that is really needed is a true UK style "Box-Junction" and a Copper with a video camera......or maybe just a video camera mounted so that it has a 360° view. Easy to do nowadays.....

To people not living in the UK, a Box Junction may be new, here is an explanation, turn on your speakers:-

UK Box Junction

They could be easily used (if not already done) in other towns and cities around the world. See here:-

Box Junctions around the world with video Tutorial

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#56
In reply to #53

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 8:02 AM

Round-abouts were actually developed in the United States. I believe around 1905........

It did take hold because the U.S. had the right of way backwards.....

UK perfected it,..... mostly by giving the people (cars) in the circle the right of way.........

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#79
In reply to #53

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 1:56 PM

Many thanks

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#58
In reply to #48

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 9:31 AM

"Prove you are innocent"

In the US you assumed innocent until proven guilty.

This is probably in contrast to what you are familiar with as many countries are different, but the burden of proof lies with the prosecution. US citizens never have to prove they are innocent to a prosecutor in a US court of law.

Sir William Blackstone wrote, "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer." That has been a cornerstone of our Founding Father's premise for the form of government the US Constitution stands for.

That sentiment seems to have fallen out of vogue of late where it is socially deemed to be better to take the opposite approach in the realm of popular opinion.

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#63
In reply to #58

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 10:17 AM

Unless you're being audited by the IRS

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#65
In reply to #63

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 10:56 AM

....or caught with a large some of cash on an interstate highway.

.

...or you become classified as an enemy of the state, supporter thereof, of other synonym of persona non grata du jour.

.

...or...

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#69
In reply to #65

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 11:12 AM

...or ... try to get a tax exempt status for your organization and your organization sounds conservative........

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#70
In reply to #69

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 11:37 AM

Well, it's rare to find a Liberal group that's working as a front to remove/deny human rights from some other group just because they are 'different.'

Okay, the Liberals have been leaning really hard on 'revoking' Rush Limbaugh's 'freedom of speech,' but Rush seems to be constantly voicing opinions that are the polar opposite of the 'Liberal Agenda,' so of COURSE they're going to try and silence him, just like the Conservatives try to silence the Liberals. That's not 'removing human rights,' that's 'politics.'

On a side-side note, I am SO looking forward to mid-November, when we'll quit getting blasted with all this crap from all the politicians about 'He stinks, vote for me!' At least for a year or so, until the mid-term campaigning begins.

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 11:45 AM

I don't trust any ones stance........ talk come cheap, and the one that gives a 'hope and change' type stance is very uninformed and does not know what they are in for.

And to use the excuse of, because others are doing it to justify ones own stance is nothing to stand on.

I would lean to the one that has no political experience, has no law degree but has a good history of solid administration to replace the old political guard.

It may initially set this country back, but only temporary.

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#77
In reply to #58

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 1:48 PM

When a red light camera takes your photo, you are guilty! So that really blows a hole in that statement "innocent until proven" BUT, you can take your case to court and TRY to prove you're innocent!

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#81
In reply to #77

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 5:37 PM

When a red light camera takes your photo, you usually are guilty. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

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#83
In reply to #81

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 12:05 AM

I'm sorry.. didn't I already say that?

"When a red light camera takes your photo, you are guilty!"

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#84
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 12:11 AM
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#86
In reply to #81

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 5:36 AM

Too true. When you are right, you are right!!

Many somehow cannot believe that....nobody "likes" it, I include myself in that of course!! I HATE IT, but I know who's fault it is, MINE!!

Now if there is some sort technical point or problem, like a yellow set at less than legally required time for that particular junction (easy to check with a watch), then it is up to the person to weigh up the costs involved with fighting the case, seeing if there are many others on the web with the same problem and make a class case (cheaper!) at the same place, or simply pay up......

I still say that its best not to speed, not to follow too close (in 50 years of driving, I still haven't managed to run into the car in front, close a couple of times, but no cigar!!) and never take alcohol or drugs.

If you do that you will get "caught" very few times.....(been there, done that, not ordered the T-Shirt yet!).

I was once on the Autobahn, sudden stop of traffic, I stopped as well with a few feet between me and the car in front, the Guy behind "gutted" his engine on my trailer hitch!!!

I was driving a 4 year old car that could drive away immediately, he was driving a 6 month old "HOT" car with a brand new engine!! Boy was he pissed with himself....but too fast too close....no alcohol, he was breathalyzed on the spot....which he REALLY objected to......

He nearly pushed me into the car ahead, but as usual, I had the brakes full on and watched him approach.....it was still close.....I drove that car for some years more after his insurance payed for a new rear bumper and trailer hitch. His was just scrapped (we were both with the same insurance company!).....

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#88
In reply to #86

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 8:04 AM

I once was very orthodoxed about stopping on the yellow light, if I could without creating screeching tires or other drama.

Then I was severely rear-ended. I do not run red lights, but now I stop with a little more discretion.

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#90
In reply to #88

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 3:28 PM

You must "know" the light sequences and timing of around where you live. I know all of mine.

Some you need to drive at the allowed speed plus tolerance (ours is +5% here), I use my SAT Navigation speed on that as many speedos are too inaccurate....

You must also know the yellow timing too.....

If not learn them.

Doing heavy braking stops at lights is tantamount to asking for a rear ender to my mind....

I have been hit by following cars (and one truck) more than a dozen times....exactly how many I cannot say.....maybe as high as 20......I have always had working brake lights, usually 3 or 4 of them....none of them stopped working even after they were "mashed!"

Its not nice, but here they MUST pay, there is no legal argument as long as you don't be stupid and say, "I stopped for a dog or a cat"......it must be a pedestrian, a light or another car doing the wrong thing.......but not a pet or a wild animal that poses little or no danger to you.

A cow, horse or an elephant WOULD be accepted!!! With or without rider (yes recently two drunks rode a cow home, chased by the police. Last week I think!!)

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#91
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 5:30 PM

I simply stopped without drama when the light turned yellow.

The person behind me thought to try to beat the light and hit the gas, not paying attention to me. I don't think she ever hit the brakes.

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 6:02 PM

Did she try to blame you, because you stopped?

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#93
In reply to #91

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 7:11 PM

Learn to live with it......just make sure you take pictures of everything and call the police even if the driver does not want that!!

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#94
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Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/02/2014 7:39 AM

That was long ago and too serious not to involve the police. Her car was not drivable.

Totaled my BMW 320i, technically. Loved that car. Even the roof had a slight bend in it, but it still ran. Passenger's seat even collapsed with my friend in it due to the impact.

Bought it back from the insurance company and ran it another year before someone else bought it from me. He wanted to fix it, which was fine with me.

My back was really screwed up, too. The whole summer was ruined and it was embarrassing to me to have to wear a brace given that normally I am very healthy and active.

On a different story I once had to stop fast at an intersection in a 911 to avoid another car and the guy that was behind me was right on my @ss when it happened.

That guy didn't hit me, but he was screaming mad at me for stopping fast, claiming I should know better because he didn't have as good breaks as me and I needed to take to take that into consideration.

I really wanted to tell him how wrong he was, but couldn't stop laughing at his absurdity long enough to reply.

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#96
In reply to #58

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/02/2014 1:17 PM

Although the presumption of innocence is not specifically mentioned in the US Constitution, there is ample precedence to rely on.

.

I don't know for certain though if presumption of innocence applies to strict liability cases, i.e. cases that have no requirement for mens rea may not adhere to presumption of innocence. I feel like I have had this discussion with someone who would know, but at the moment, I can't find any source, and my go-to expert is not at my disposal.... i.e., working on something else, and I don't want to provide another excuse for adding to the bill......so it's not much above a guess from me....but I think it is right.

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#68
In reply to #48

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 11:10 AM

"while I think roundabout are good, MOST American drivers I know, are totally confused with these little"obstacles".... "

And there is the heart of the roundabout corn maze. Most roundabouts (or 'traffic circles' as they are called in the US, are retrofitted into an existing 4-way intersection by putting a curcular curbed 'thing' in the middle, like a low planter with a sign sticking up to let you know there is something 'blocking' straight progress through what was a normal intersection.

Roundabouts cannot be 'retrofitted' into an intersection and work, the intersection needs to be redesigned, so the traffic is properly guided into and out of the circle. That, however, would require widening the road as it approaches the intersection, which would take away from the 'street-side' lawns of the properties near the corners.

When Traffic circles are done right, they're actually quite nice in the US. The roundabout in Logan Square in Chicago is a beautiful example. You can see it coming up, you can enter and exit easily, traffic flows smoothly, there's even room for a park with a column in the center. The roundabout takes up the space of about two city blocks (1/8 mile x 1/8 mile for the roundabout) but it makes travel through what would otherwise be a nightmare 6-way intersection a breeze.

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#78
In reply to #68

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 1:53 PM

Actually, mini RAs are easily built into tiny areas. Did you not see the pix I posted? Often they are placed on exactly the same amount of tarmac with no changes, just painting...

And occasional repainting....

Installation of a normal sized one costs similar to a light, but safety as well as traffic throughput are far far better....and they are cheaper in the long run on all counts!!

Read my PDFs that I posted, US whitepapers....they tell the truth....

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#62
In reply to #47

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 10:03 AM

I like round about intersections, mostly because they do a good job of prompting drivers to bring their driving task to the forefront of their mind, intensify awareness of their surroundings and make judgements about the likely intentions of other drivers.

.

Okay, look, I realize that you were not claiming to be laughing at people injured in accidents to which shortened yellow duration probably contributed. My response was intended to show that by lumping in all 'excuses' opposing red light cameras in comments thus far as laughable, you put yourself in the position of laughing at some rather not funny stuff:

.

"...The excuses I have read here are simply ALL totally laughable..."

- was your comment, presumably referencing the comment to which it responded:

.

"...I've read just about every excuse know to man WHY we should NOT have a "Red Light" cameras..."

.

I think that you may not have given serious consideration to simply ALL the arguments/excuses of why we should not have red light cameras. This is not a berating of your judgement, rather, just the opposite.

.

.

About the arguments you made suggesting that it may have been correct to reduce yellow light durations, including modifying legislation in order to undercut the previous minimums, after the installation of red light cameras. You appear to be making two main arguments seemingly in support of the preceding:

.

- Drivers who are drunk, using performance inhibiting mind altering substances, and/or exhibiting symptoms of cerebellar hypoplasia, who are also likely to run the light even with the yellow duration lengthened by one second, should not be given the wrong idea about tolerance choosing to drive in their mental state.

.

- Shorter duration yellow lights will somehow protect pedestrians ... seemingly by stopping cars from crossing against the light.

.

.

I'm certain that you had stronger arguments than those against having minimum safe yellow light durations maintained even on traffic lights with red light cameras, but that is how it reads. Let me know if I understood part wrong, but for now, I'm going to respond to those.

.

As to impaired drivers: we should not tailoring the rules of the road to pamper nor to specifically hinder drivers who chose to illegally drive impaired, other than efforts to deter and detect/punish that specific behavior. The rules of the road should be tailored to safe efficient travel.

Red light cameras do not catch drunk drivers, they do not issue DUI's and to the extent that they replace cops who would have been issuing tickets for running red lights, they probably lessen the chance of being caught driving inebriated.

.

As to pedestrians being vulnerable and needing special consideration, I completely agree. I disagree that there is evidence that shortening yellow light duration can be reasonably inferred to make pedestrians safer. If anything it reduced the time they have to cross before the light lets traffic flow across their path.

.

The main thing here is that yellow light duration should be long enough such that the slower segment of the group of the typical drivers, not the illegal outliers, just the every day glassy-eyed mouth-breathing sound-bite-parroting FLOBs, has time to stop safely before the light turns red. Shortening the yellow too much , causes more sober drivers, to react abruptly and sometimes run the light. While it does drive revenue up, it does so at the cost of peoples, safety, probably including the pedestrians.

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#46
In reply to #43

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 4:28 AM

GA

Also a great link!!! WOW!!!

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#51
In reply to #43

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 7:33 AM

I think that there is no good way to do a wrong thing.

That is, if you find municipalities tuning yellow lights to maximize revenue or other practices that do nothing to improve safety or even degrade safety, then it is wrong.

My problem seems to be that I just don't believe that the ends justify the means, but I guess I must be old fashion because it seems the majority disagree.

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#60
In reply to #51

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 9:51 AM

I agree with you that traffic safety should be the first (and only) consideration.

If municipalities are REALLY tweaking yellow light times to make more money, that's just not right.

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#73
In reply to #60

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 11:59 AM

Here there are legal rules to allow a correct setting of such timing....we still get it wrong occasionally though!!

What does the USA/each State have as rules....?

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#74
In reply to #73

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 12:10 PM

The regulations were actually changed in places to undercut the previous minimum required yellow light delay....at times that coincided with implementation of red light cameras.

.

Recently there has been national legislation to standardize the required yellow light duration calculation.

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#54
In reply to #43

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 7:49 AM

How in the world do you get a stock Hyundai to go 147 mph unless you drive it off a high cliff?

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 7:54 AM

Exactly where it SHOULD be driven.

I tend to dislike all their models I have driven....never ever want to own one, unless free with a years free tax, fuel and insurance!! Then maybe!!

Only French cars are worse....followed by Italian!!

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#57
In reply to #54

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 8:03 AM

ha,.... maybe it was 147 KPH that's still a stretch....

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#59
In reply to #57

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 9:40 AM

Nope. Car & Driver got 144 mph flat out in their test car.

The section where the suspect's car was clocked at 147 is slightly downhill, making 147 mph a possibility.

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#72
In reply to #57

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 11:56 AM

160 KPH = 100 MPH....that could be a possible explanation....

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#61
In reply to #54

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 9:53 AM

I was skeptical, too. But the local news had a "car guy" on who said it was possible.

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#66
In reply to #61

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 10:58 AM

I would never have bet on that. I guess I am living in the past , when i was in HS and an XKE went 150 mph I thought that was something. Now we have a family sedan from Korea going 144 mph?

With modern technology that was only available to previous expensive cars (DOHC, variable valve timing, FI and such I guess its the wave of the present and future.

Bottom line though the guy deserves what he got.

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#45
In reply to #42

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 4:25 AM

With my quoted comment I stay firm with!!! Totally laughable.....

But I was talking about the "reasons" given for not obeying the law, or for driving in such a manner.

In Europe for example (I am sure its no different in any other country!), driving too fast is the single most reason for causing an accident. Driving too close is the next. Its not difficult to see how the two hang together.....

Even drunken driving is not as big a cause of accidents, on its own at least, but driving drunk, while driving too fast and too close are an even worse scenario....that many achieve....

De gustibus non est disputandum....but people injured in auto accidents is not really that funny to me, especially an increase in accidents related to the government making things more hazardous in order to improve a source of revenue.

Simply not true in most cases, but if they are, a local majority voted them in.....e.g. blame the voters....

Sounds preposterous, right? ....Must be the delusions of a paranoid conspiriac, right? Not exactly. Here is an investigation that revealed Florida quietly struck down portions of laws that had previously kept yellow light times longer and then lowered the yellow light duration with emphasis in areas and corridors with red light cameras.

Surely, one just needs to adjust ones driving style? After going though such a light a few times, learn to adapt. Or vote them out of office, or involve the AAA (assuming you are a member of course!). By the way, what does it cost to go through a red light with a camera in Florida? Here it gets more expensive the longer the phase was on red....

We have also had light timings altered, which made the speedsters look bad, but it was in fact done to allow more traffic through the intersection!!

Also, a really good way to fix this and reduce the number and seriousness of any accidents is to change the light to a round about!!!! Again, vote for local government willing to do that.....

Other locations have also been caught doing very similar things....exposing automobile occupants to increased danger to bolster revenue from tickets.

Actually protecting innocent pedestrians......maybe?

It seems fairly clear that shortening yellow duration increases danger. It also isn't difficult to understand why red light cameras motivate officials to shorten yellow duration. The thing I am having trouble with is, why any of that would encourage laughter.

I do believe that people with a few active brain cells left will actually adapt their driving to suit, seems more than logical to me personally.

By the way, if you have ever been driven, or driven yourself in many cities in S.America or Russia today, you would NEVER complain about the USA!!

A question for you:-

"While driving, who demonstrates the better/higher/usage (pick your own definition here please or add a better one!) of their intelligence?

The person who lifts off and keeps to the speed limit (or even less with small children/old people om the sidewalk), or the one always adding a few (or higher) percent more speed?"

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#64
In reply to #45

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 10:53 AM

"....But I was talking about the "reasons" given for not obeying the law, or for driving in such a manner...."

Okay, that makes a lot more sense to me now. When you wrote 'excuses', I referred to the previous comment which used 'excuses' to describe reasons against red light cameras, not reasons to break the law or drive recklessly.

.

"...Simply not true in most cases, but if they are, a local majority voted them in.....e.g. blame the voters...."

.

Actually there have been well documented increases in accident rates with the set up of red light cameras. Red light cameras are not typically voted on by the public. The officials in office might be voted out, but there are a slew of other positions that also must be considered. At any rate, the blame/proposed action of voting is a method of resolving this issue which may or may not be very effective, but it isn't actually central to the issue itself... i.e. 'should we be installing these?'.

.

.

"...Surely, one just needs to adjust ones driving style?..."

.

There are minimum yellow light durations times that depend on things like the speed limit on the road, the distance at which the light may be seen, and the road characteristics, below which no amount of reasonable adjustment to driving style in most vehicles that can prevent running a red light if traveling the speed limit, or up to 10 mph slower, and at certain positions when the light changes to yellow.

.

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"...While driving, who demonstrates the better/higher/usage..."

.

Hmmm, that depends. More information is needed. Please specify, are they driving an ambulance carrying a patient in cardiac arrest to the hospital, or is it a fire truck to a burning orphanage with children trapped inside?

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#75
In reply to #64

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 1:45 PM

Your arguments are exactly the same as the ones that prompted my laughter originally, nothing new.....

Are you in the police or fire department yourself, if not, its always illegal to exceed the posted speed limit. You need a legal blue light to speed legally in any western country.....

Even with a dying person in your car, the police will correctly try and stop you speeding unless they know what you are doing and are DRIVING IN FRONT OF YOU!!!!! There is your legal blue light!!! All the way to the hospital.....

These sort of situations occur once in a lifetime, so you cannot base an argument for everyday usage on such puerile statements!!!

I cannot even be bothered to answer any of your points as none of them are in any way useful to your argument....that yellows should be longer time wise.....

I get the impression that you have given some money by driving through a red light too, just like I have!!! Annoying but totally correct!!

Give it a rest, lets agree to disagree....nothing I can say will change your mind, your "chip" is ingrown on your shoulders I feel....logical argument will never be accepted....it is just boring to read your arguments agai and again.

Simply obey the law, it will prove FAR less costly in the end, or become a decision maker where you live....one or the other.

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#95
In reply to #75

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/02/2014 12:53 PM

I'm ignoring the numerous misrepresentations about my comments. All those aside, there is something remaining in your comment that I am very curious about.

.

"...You need a legal blue light to speed legally in any western country...."

.

This isn't true, I can think of numerous counter-examples, but I'm curious how you came to believe/declare it, as if it were true.

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#97
In reply to #95

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/03/2014 1:55 PM

Actually it is true in all respectable countries....

So where do you live if you can drive around legally using a blue light without being police, ambulance, fire brigade or similar? Just a private person.....

I am fascinated to know more!!!

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#98
In reply to #97

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/03/2014 10:15 PM

I have a hard time believing that you do not see the difference between your previous statement, and the one you claim. It seems pretty obvious the change was necessitated because you found the first one to be unsupportable, but could not bring yourself to admit the mistake.

.

"You need a legal blue light to speed legally in any Western country"

.

....is not the same claim that you infer in your most recent reply....something along the lines of:

.

'~~~....In all respectable countries, legal use of a blue light while driving is restricted to police, fire brigade or similar. Just a private person does not qualify. ...~~~'

.

Since you claim to be fascinated to know more, and since you often claim to already know too much to get anything out of exchanges, I'll take this rare opportunity to expound further, as we shouldn't let this one slip by.

.

There are numerous situations in which it is legal to speed in the United States of America....by the way, we are respectable, even if we lack your specific respect...without operating a blue light. Many of our emergency vehicle which may legally exceed the speed limit, thus 'speed', in certain situations are not equipped with blue lights.

.

The prohibition on using blue lights outside of their designated use is quite different than the requirement to have blue lights to exceed the posted speed limit. Your attempt to confuse the issue has failed to spread to be effective, other that possibly to yourself.

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#100
In reply to #98

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/04/2014 4:55 AM

I have to crown you "King of the stupid Hairsplitter!"

Your post was simply wrong (as usual!!) That is quite an achievement as there are a few others around who hair split, but none so dominant.....I include myself in that too. Anything less would not be truthful.

Did you practice long to achieve it, or was it a birth or a language defect?

I hope for your sake that its just here on CR4 that you do it. That is also my personal "bet"! But only you know for certain!!!

Please try in the future to understand plain English better at least while on CR4! I will do my best to help you in any way I can, but only at your behest!

Let me reiterate, a blue light is only allowed to be used on a vehicle, either steady or flashing, if the vehicle has been licensed to mount & use it in most if not all westernized countries...It can be combined with other colours, Red in some countries. But it cannot be used on its own or with any other colour, by anyone NOT involved in those special job categories already mentioned in some legal manner.

Most countries take a dim view of anyone using such lighting illegally....I cannot say for certain where you are!

Also try and be a touch more friendly as well and do try and remember to re-use any manners your parents may have taught you.... Or learn some!!

Many thanks in advance of your full cooperation and understanding in this matter and do have a great day!

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#102
In reply to #100

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/04/2014 7:08 AM

Let's see... you begin your comment with an ad hominem attack, calling me 'stupid', and close with recommendations of 'try to be a touch more friendly' and an awkward suggestion to 're-use' manners.

.

Yep, no imposter has hacked your password. It is certainly Andy. The callous disregard for internal consistency is a dead give away. Whether it is calling someone 'stupid' and then suggesting they should be more nice and remember manners; or suggesting someone with excellent fluency improve their English and then wording your suggestions absurdly as 're-use any manners'; or waxing philosophically about the dangers of stopping abruptly but refusing to see any problem with making yellow light durations too short... few, other than you Andy, could pull off that level of shameless blatant disregard of the facts at hand, nor would many want to,

.

Though you would obviously like there to be little difference between your first claim, and the one you are now trying to claim, that is simply not the case. It is not hair splitting. The fact that the use of blue lights on public roadways is highly regulate is not very close at all to your original statement that a blue light is necessary to legally speed in any western country. There are many situations in which emergency vehicles are permitted to exceed the posted speed limit without being equipped with a blue light.

.

Now, calm down. Realize that you are only angry because I pointed out something that you wrote that wasn't correct. We all make mistakes. It is absurd to go on the assumption that anyone believes you are incapable of making a mistake. Everyone does. I do it too, but not in this case, so far as I can tell.

.

It is time to reevaluate. Perhaps re-reading the title of this blog wwwill point you in the right direction.

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#103
In reply to #98

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/04/2014 7:23 AM

If memory serves, the blue color for police is a US federal mandate. If a state does not use that color they forfeit some federal funding, so every state uses blue as part of their colors.

Unless it has recently changed in Florida, EMS is bound by the legal speed limits, or so I am told by my girlfriend, who worked as a paramedic. However, I have seen them speed on occasion and no one is going to issue a citation.

Citizens speeding in Florida is very common. Police do not look for speeding as much as they look for unsafe driving practices. 10 mph over the posted limit is not unreasonable if you are driving in a safe way. I have passed a number of police cars doing 9 mph over the limit going the same direction as my car without getting cited or stopped.

I've now put 90,000 miles in a red sports car here in Florida and have never been cited nor stopped for speed violations.

For a citizen there is never a legal reason to speed (in Florida, at least), but police will consider what is prudent for the situation.

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#105
In reply to #103

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/04/2014 3:20 PM

Emergency vehicles, responding to/acting on an emergency, are typically exempt from the posted speed limit just like other posted traffic rules. There are usually requirements for sirens and emergency lights, but most of the lights for fire trucks and ambulances are not blue. Emergency vehicle drivers are also cautioned not to unduly endanger lives while using their exemption from posted traffic laws... speed limits and otherwise.

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#99
In reply to #97

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/03/2014 10:28 PM

Leaving aside respectability, and countries other than the USA:

Guide to State Laws Governing the Use and Color of ...

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#101
In reply to #99

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/04/2014 6:45 AM

Thank you.

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#106
In reply to #99

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/04/2014 3:24 PM

I suspect this is an error in the chart in which the appropriate data in the columns has been inadvertently switched.... or perhaps 'command' and 'security' are actually names for colors of light of which I have not yet been made aware.

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#49
In reply to #42

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 7:14 AM

but people injured in auto accidents is not really that funny to me, especially an increase in accidents related to the government making things more hazardous in order to improve a source of revenue.

I don't believe intention of an accident being laughable..... especially anyone who witness an accident.

I believe the joke is the amount of excuses that is baseless is what was the point.

And I agree on your second point, of government involvement can work detrimentally to safety.

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#50
In reply to #42

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 7:33 AM

Your Latin comment really does not fit in here by the way (here freely translated):-

"In matters of taste, there can be no disputes"

As we seem to have a dispute....! and its tasteless!!!

May I add the following mostly well know Latin phrases that I personally find applicable to bad driving:-

"In Vino Veritas"

"Carpe Diem"

"Utile Dulci"

My favourite:- "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc"

Not forgetting:- "Per Angusta Ad Augusta"

If anyone needs a translation, just ask anyone who took Latin at school, they will recognize most if not all.....if I can be of any help just ask.

In such serious areas where people, some not even in a vehicle and therefore totally unprotected, are open to injury and death, no method to stop the drivers who flaunt driving laws is too harsh....a few fender benders must be allowed for.....if worse, that is their own fault most of the time, with few REAL exceptions.

In my rally days, we always tried to put the back end of the car in first when we could see we had overcooked it.

Why you may ask?

Firstly, it was the cheapest end of the car to repair to repair (except for some rear engined models that were WAY out of our budget!)

Secondly, it gave us more "depth" of vehicle between us and the fixed object we had hit!! (No airbags back then I may add, only seat belts...

Thirdly, we were forced back into our seats and headrests, not just thrown against the webbing with a heavy helmet adding to our possible spine injuries.

So if someone ploughs/rear ender into your car from behind, its probably physically best for you personally, financially (his insurance!) and police/camera wise..

So stopping is best in most situations!

Stopping in front of a runaway 40 ton truck probably not.....stay aware!! But how often has that happened to anyone here. Me once many, many years ago........UGH!!

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 7:41 AM

ostendis 'off'

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#67
In reply to #50

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 11:01 AM

I'm pretty certain you understand I was referring to taste in sense of humor, but you still made me laugh.

Thanks.

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#76
In reply to #67

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 1:46 PM

You liked my other Latin quotes too?

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