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Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

Posted June 25, 2014 2:17 PM by HUSH
Pathfinder Tags: autmotive CAMERA traffic transportation
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Red light cameras tend to create a bit of a controversy whenever they are considered. Here in New York, if you stay out of the Big Apple itself, it's unlikely you'll encounter one since they are prohibited in cities with a population of less than one million. And if you are driving in NYC, you're crazy rich anyway so what's a few red light tickets?

While red light cameras were first enacted in Israel in 1969, New York was actually home to the unfortunate incident which seriously spurned the development and popularity (and subsequent unpopularity) of red light cameras. In 1982 a careless motorist hit a toddler in a stroller and a media firestorm ensued. Politicians advocated that technology could provide an ever-watching eye over busy intersections, and one thing to know about New York City is this: they want to monitor you all the time forever. Just in the past two years they've prohibited large fountain sodas and selling tobacco to anyone under 21.

Anyway, these cameras are typically placed at intersections where there have been pedestrian accidents in the past, or where red light running can be a frequent occurrence. The cameras utilize induction loops embedded in the asphalt to estimate the car's speed. Based on this measurement, if the software believes a car is unlikely to stop for the light, it takes two photos: one right before the car enters the intersection, and one as it crosses. This is forwarded to a police department for review, who issue violations or citations.

But red light cameras have many, many drawbacks. Let's see:

  • Sometimes a bug, a bird, fog, or any other object can obscure the photo, meaning it's impossible to accurately identify a license plate. Some jurisdictions require a photo of the driver as well. When not enough photo evidence exists, some places resort to "snitch tickets." An affidavit, which resembles a ticket but is my no means a citation, is mailed to the presumed vehicle owner. If they're dumb enough, or exceptionally honest, the owner will admit the infraction, and this confession develops into a fine and ticket.
  • Traffic fines are a reliable source of income for small governments. When these governments come to expect revenue from traffic fines, and begin to notice shortfalls, red light cameras are liable for abuse. A town in Italy synchronized light cameras at adjacent intersections to coax drivers into either speeding or running the light.
  • Small towns and cities may choose to have a third party review red light camera reports if the local police do not have the manpower to do so. The legitimacy of infractions issued by these contract-services is often disputed.
  • In California, 7,600 traffic tickets that were issued using intersection cameras were dismissed, rescinded, or refunded because studies showed the duration of the yellow light was not enough warning to brake and stop the vehicle before the light turned red. In this instance, basic physics principles were ignored. As of 2014, a new U.S. national requirement states all yellow lights must have a minimum duration of 3 seconds and a maximum duration of 6 second.
  • Finally, and most importantly, hundreds of studies have been inconclusive about the safety effects of red light cameras. The consensus seems to be that how much they improve safety varies intersection to intersection. Most studies have found a reduction in injury-causing and t-bone car collisions, but an increased in rear-end collisions. While driver safety has improved, sometimes the result is a higher number of vehicle accidents overall.

Some studies and agencies have promoted other mechanisms: improve traffic light visibility and conspicuity; improve signage around intersections; program the light to have a brief all-red cycle; and monitor neighboring traffic lights and traffic frequency to eliminate unnecessary red lights. Ultimately, these concepts require some infrastructure redesign, and don't offer the revenue stream that red light cameras do.

So here we have one instance where a technologically advanced monitoring system hasn't made our processes noticeably safer or more efficient. Is it a problem with how it's been implemented, or have we finally found a task that our systems can't adapt to because there as just too many specifications?

Resources

Wikipedia - Red light camera

Federal Highway Administration - Making Intersections Safer...

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#80
In reply to #76
Find in discussion

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 4:33 PM

I suppose it isn't unreasonable to think that my standards might be lowered slightly in hopes of nurturing some modus vivindi to viability on the rarefied common ground, but your quotes would have passed muster even without special consideration.

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How apropos that your favorite Latin phrase turns out to be a logical fallacy.

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Of all, I appreciated the fact that the last Latin phrase you noted was 'Per Angusta Ad Augusta', because it mirrors the way I feel after exchanges with you: slightly better for having endured.

.

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#82
In reply to #80

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

06/30/2014 5:38 PM

They were all intended for people who cannot drive legally for some reason......think about it!!

I must admit I don't feel better for the exchange......it just seems like a big waste of time and energy.....

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#85
In reply to #82

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 12:40 AM

"...I must admit I don't feel better for the exchange......it just seems like a big waste of time and energy....."

.

That is certainly understandable. Throughout the exchange you consistently were rebutting assertions I did not actually make and positions I do not hold. It would be silly to expect to be introduced to something novel if you commandeer both sides of the discussion. Of course all the other arguments will seem laughable if you decide you know what it is the other side is going to argue...and that it is of course laughable.

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Just to be clear:

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I am not against speeding camera ticket systems.

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I am in favor of using roundabouts both new construction and retrofits where it makes sense.

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I would not be against red light camera ticket systems if an effective way is devised to protect against the enticement to endanger the public for a good revenue stream.

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I haven't been issued a warning or ticket for any moving violation in many years. I am not a tailgater nor a speed demon. I get a kick out of squeezing 50+ mpg in city driving and 60+ mpg on the freeway in my 14 year old VW diesel.... that isn't a hobby that works well with running or racing lights.

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I do not believe the conjecture that sufficiently long yellow duration has a negative impact on the safety of pedestrians, or that it encourages the stupid or inebriated to become more stupid and/or inebriated.

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I do learn things from exchanges with you. I suspect that your failure to do similarly is probably not so much a factor of weak content on my part as it is a refusal to consider or denial of understanding.

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...no surprises here... we've run these multiple times, each to their increasingly predictable end. Sorry you aren't getting much anything out of it. I am.

.

Thanks.

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#87
In reply to #85

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 6:09 AM

You wrote:-

I would not be against red light camera ticket systems if an effective way is devised to protect against the enticement to endanger the public for a good revenue stream.

Sorry, I see that personally as a "Win Win" situation for the general public, more cash in the coffers of police and local government, and hopefully at the end of the day, better drivers or at least fewer of them on the road.

So Totally great, but I will simply do my best to contribute as little as possible myself....It will never be 100%, but I haven't killed or injured anyone (except for a drunk I hit almost 50 years ago that walked into my slow moving car 20MPH aprox...broke his right thigh bone. He admitted liability too while in hospital...) I am proud of that all as anyone would be....though I did my best to avoid him and he lived to tell the tale....

I haven't been issued a warning or ticket for any moving violation in many years. I am not a tailgater nor a speed demon. I get a kick out of squeezing 50+ mpg in city driving and 60+ mpg on the freeway in my 14 year old VW diesel.... that isn't a hobby that works well with running or racing lights.

Well done. You are obeying the laws, as you should.....But you don't get a medal for doing that, you are simply one of the probably 80% odd of mainstram people. (A guess at the percentage, you may have better statistics to hand!)

I do not believe the conjecture that sufficiently long yellow duration has a negative impact on the safety of pedestrians, or that it encourages the stupid or inebriated to become more stupid and/or inebriated.

The longer the phases for stopping, the slower the traffic flow, also the less time for other important phases. Less traffic throughput overall.

You also slightly misunderstood. If you have short (let us say correct) phases, drivers get used to driving AND paying attention. Its a sort of training, so if a pedestrian actually steps out when his light goes on, hopefully the car is already stopped....That MUST also interest you as a driver!

I do learn things from exchanges with you. I suspect that your failure to do similarly is probably not so much a factor of weak content on my part as it is a refusal to consider or denial of understanding.

I start from a completely opposite opinion with regard to obeying lights as they are. I presume they are correct and I am wrong, right up front!!

I have NEVER EVER tried to get one changed, not even DREAMED of it, it has never been needed. I have driven in DOZENS of different countries in over 50 years of driving, soon to be 51 years in October.... NOW WHY IS THAT???????

Am I so brilliant? I think not. I am a simple ordinary Guy who is not clever or interested enough to want to break laws of ANY sort.....a few times I broke them accidentally, unintentionally....but I STILL broke them and paid!! I never whine and wheedle either as many here appear to do...

...no surprises here... we've run these multiple times, each to their increasingly predictable end. Sorry you aren't getting much anything out of it. I am.

I am So happy that finally you are getting something out of my posts, I had all but given you up completely as a completely lost case!!! Thanks for the reassurance!

YIPPPPPEEEEEEE!!!!! It now appears that you need a new name, how about:-

"Truth can be a compromise"

Again you made my day with more of your un-thought out comments!!!

Keep it up!!!

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#89

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/01/2014 12:56 PM

This may not help photo radar "victims", but it's a novel idea. Leave it up to an attorney to find new ways to fleece people out of money. It's probably cheaper to pay the fine.

A South Florida defense attorney launches a free "legal" iOS app, called Ticket Titan to help drivers fight traffic, parking tickets. - 06.30

From: http://www.parknews.biz/

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#104

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/04/2014 11:16 AM

In my reply reply 99 the tables all mention a "green" vehicle.

Could this refer to something as mundane as an EV or hybrid, and why would such need a special light?

Comments?

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#107
In reply to #104

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/08/2014 4:39 PM

The 'Green'entry does not refer to a Green vehicle, that part of the table is actually reversed, they show the color on the left and the vehicle on the right.

Some states use Green for Security vehicles (aka rent-a-thugcop), others for 'Command' vehicles (fire engine uses red, fire chief's car is red and green. Cops use blue and red, Precinct chief used blue, red and green. Or something like that) Green vehicle lights vary by state, with most not assigning any category to that color.

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#108
In reply to #107

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

07/08/2014 5:45 PM

Every state has a green category listed, and I just can't believe that that is the only one that is reversed, IN ALL CASES?

While I don't have a better explanation, I'm skeptical.

But, I guess that's better than EVs.

Thanks.

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#109

Re: Red Light Cameras: Is It Time To Admit Mistakes?

01/06/2015 6:36 AM

A cop in California stops a driver for shooting through a red light.
The driver steps out of his car and comes striding toward the officer, demanding to know why he is being harassed by the Gestapo!
So the officer calmly tells him of the red light violation. The motorist
instantly goes on a tirade, questioning the officer's ancestry, sexual
orientation, etc., in explicit offensive terms.
When the officer finishes writing the ticket he puts an "AH" in the lower
right corner of the narrative portion of the ticket. He then hands it to
The 'violator' for his signature. The guy signs the ticket angrily, and
when presented with his copy points to the "AH" and demands to know
what it stands for.
The officer says, "That's so when we go to court, I'll remember that you're
an asshole!"
Two months later they're in court. The 'violator' has a bad driving record
with a high number of points and is in danger of losing his license, so he hired a lawyer to represent him.
On the stand the officer testifies to seeing the man run through the red light.
Under cross examination the defense attorney asks; "Officer is this a
reasonable facsimile of the ticket that you issued to my client?"
Officer responds, "Yes, sir, that is the defendant's copy, his signature and
mine, same number at the top."
Lawyer: "Officer, is there any particular marking or notation on this ticket
you don't normally make?"
"Yes, sir, in the lower right corner of the narrative there is an "AH,"
underlined."
"What does the "AH" stand for, officer?"
"Aggressive and hostile, Sir."
"Aggressive and hostile?"
"Yes, Sir.
"Officer, are you sure it doesn't stand for asshole?"
Well, sir, you know your client better than I do.
~~~~ How often can one get an attorney to convict his own client.

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