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Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

Posted July 04, 2014 4:12 AM by user-deleted-1105

I wanted to see how my arrows were flying from my bow, specifically flight arrows.
A flight arrow presents a conundrum, you'd think you would want a nice stiff arrow to get maximum energy into the arrow, but you want a light point and small flights for minimum wind resistance.

This would mean the arrow kicks hard left as the string drives down the centre line of the bow and the arrow has to pass around the grip.

Of course this isn't an issue with a modern bow with a big cut out for the arrow to fly down as it is centre shot.
With a traditional wooden bow the arrow has to flex round the bow so you need a flexible arrow. The shot below is one of my regular arrows from "Twister" a Yew Primitive/neolithic style bow 45 pounds draw weight at 28" which shoots those arrows at about 165 feet per second.

I had been testing by seeing if the arrow struck the target square on at 10 yards. I found that I needed a much more flexible arrow than anticipated. For a 100pound draw weight I needed an arrow rated at 35-40 pound spine (spine is what the flexibility is called and for a traditional style bow the rule of thumb is to go ten less than the draw weight of the bow) For a 70 pound bow I had to go down to 30-35 spine.

To see better what was happening I bought a camera from a well know auction site for a mere £69. A Canon Powershot SX230HS It's not one of the very fast camera but it will take 240 frames per second at low resolution (320x240) or 120fps at (640x480).

I mounted the camera on an old hard hat to give an approximation to my eye view of an actual shot.

Unfortunately I can't post video on here, but if you want to see if I hit that small white spot, you can see a V short video on my blog. It is compressed so the quality isn't that great.

You will also see that from the archer's perspective, at short range the point of the arrow is lined up well below the target. To allow for this target archers would place a white aiming disc (or "point blanc" in French) on the floor. (The effect is somewhat exaggerated as the camera is above my eye line)

'Point blank' range is the distance at which that aiming spot coincides with the actual target, which for the bow shown is about 40yards. People always incorrectly assume that point black range means zero. It does for a weapon which you aim by looking down the barrel, but there are fewer than you might think, as even with a rifle, your eye and the sights are slightly elevated especially if a scope is fitted.

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#1

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 5:00 AM

Nice one, Del.

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#2

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 6:58 AM

I am amazed at how steady you can hold that camera.

There is much more to archery than I would have ever thought. What you are talking about is called Archer's Paradox?

So, upon release your fingers cause the rear of the arrow to pitch slightly left as well as some inertial bend to the arrow. Is that what we are seeing?

Again, those pesky French have embedded another term (point blanc) into our language. Thanks for the lesson.

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#3
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 8:05 AM

Here's a blog entry that explains the archer's paradox with some good pics.
The Wikipedia entry is good too (mainly 'cos I re-wrote it! )

You can really feel the difference between a correctly matched arrow and an unmatched arrow, which can kick left or clatter on the bow.

The slight pitch left off the fingers is more relevant on a modern centre shot bow.

On a traditional bow, the arrow starts off straight and the inertia of the arrow head keeps that going straight... the string drives the back of the arrow towards the centre of the bow and the shaft of the arrow flexes to accommodate this. A lot of people confuse the flexing with the paradox.
The paradox is that an arrow points hard left when it is first put on the string, yet flies to the point of aim with out kicking left! As a kid I wondered why this was and no one could tell me! Of course now I know that it's because the arrow bends round the bow, and this flexing is the answer to the paradox.

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#5
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 9:34 AM

Very interesting !

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#6
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 9:37 AM

Thanks for the link. That explains things much better.

I used to shoot bow & arrow as a kid, but never progressed to a serious hobby, so my detailed knowledge on the subject is now just a little bit better.

I remember doing exercises where I would draw the bow, aim, then turn my head and close my eyes, then release. I was amazed at how well you could still hit the target. Used to do a similar thing for rifle practice to help control site picture and stance, except we would not actually fire.

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#7
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 12:16 PM

Ah, yes exactly. Balance, feel, spacial awareness. When I used to play golf, I'd practice getting set up and then shutting my eyes on the top of the backswing... there's no time to actually adjust your swing once it's started. It's easy to overthink these things.

One time my son was spraying arrows all round the target (he often tests my bows) I turned off some of the lights so he could only just see the white target, but couldn't see where the arrow were striking. I fed him the arrows saying "shoot as fast as you can, but without rushing". The last arrow made a clattering sound and he thought he'd missed the target... he hadn't! They were in a group you could put finger and thumb around. The clattering arrow had just struck one of the others.
His previous bad shooting was due to trying to compensate and adjust each shot... or "overthink"

Del

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#13
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 10:20 AM

Like AH, I haven't shot an arrow since I was a pre-teen, but I do enjoy your posts. This one was especially interesting, together with the links.

Thanks.

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#31
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/06/2014 12:52 PM

"I am amazed at how steady you can hold that camera."

Just look at his head, in the second pic. You think that happened overnight?

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#33
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/06/2014 1:10 PM

Rock solid!

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#4

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 8:47 AM

Interesting video. I have a Canon with 240 fps video and have had fun finding things to shoot in slow motion.

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#8

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 2:09 PM

Very cool stuff, Monsieur le Chat !

One bit puzzle me - I had in my head the notion that the arrow rested on the thumb before firing () it ?

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#9
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 2:22 PM

H, you silly squirrrrrel...
Actually it can be shot off the thumb with some styles of loose like the pinch grip that kids use. Some Native Americans used a sort of pinch where the arrow was held between finger and thumb and the finger also pulled on the string. A thumb ring (used on Asiatic style composite bows) also allows the arrow to be shot from the thumb side of the bow.

It's all to do with how the string slips off the fingers. The arrow has to go on the appropriate side else it flicks off sideways as the string deflects... as happened when I was instructing a left hander on day, but didn't realise. The fact that she was pretty wasn't distracting me at all.

I know you only said "firing" to irritate me, (I'll set ER on you)

For those who haven't realized... "Fire" is used on cannon and fire arms... an arrow is loosed or shot.

Del

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#10
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/04/2014 5:00 PM

hehe . Ta for the reply, tho' it raises even more questions in my mind.

Only noticed because I'm a right-hander, but almost zero vision in the right eye. I'm not big on guns, but if using a shotgun I have to hold it on the left. Yah, you can get a left-handed stock, but as my dad once said, " You can never find yer shotgun with a left handed stock when ya need it". If memory serves, it was during some family meet in the lesser known parts of Leicestershire. There's a similar custom down in Kent, but don't tell anyone I was being a bit creative in saying that .

Flippin' Americans will be all away enjoying the 4th - Happy 4th y'all, or whatever or whatever is apt . Even over in Etherville, I've heard some (presumably) Americans, relocated in Blighty, having a good time with fireworks. Cool .

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#21
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 12:50 PM

My Mother had the same problem, she looked hilarious when aiming a rifle right handed.....

I agree with you about the 4th of July, so best wishes today to one of our old "revolting" colonies!!!

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#22
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 1:01 PM

Used to be you could buy some really badass fireworks here, but not anymore (at least not legally). To protect us from ourselves you see. M80s and *real* silver salutes.

Fireworks stands here (at least in Texas and Colorado. I don't know about elsewhere) are open only for a few weeks before the 4th and New Years. Where would one buy fireworks in Blighty, much less get permission to set them off? I'm sure they didn't smuggle them in (btw, next time you're in Heathrow's duty-free shop, mind grabbing a few REAL Cuban cigars and shipping them to a secure, undisclosed location here? I can't believe there's still that stupid embargo against Cuba. Jack Kennedy bought up all the Cuban cigars in DC before he signed it, bless his privileged heart. :))

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#39
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 12:20 PM

You can get Fireworks fairly easy over here, but Nigh is probably the one who can tell you how the law stands. Etherville did have a dedicated fireworks shop (for all I know they are still trading). There are restrictions, but I don't know how biog a bang you can legally buy. It's certainly a lot harder to buy the raw ingredients if you want to go DIY.

Cripes, I thought the cigar embargo was long gone ! JFK's quick purchase before the embargo is the stuff of legend, even over here. I smoke the occassional one, but have never paid much attention to the brand etc. There is a brand called 'Ethervilles', and they look astonishingly like Cuban ones. Very much like them. Might be possible to ship some, but Etherville Cigar Co can't exactly help much if FDA pounce on your ass late on a night. I can think of some possible excuses, but far too rude to post .

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#11

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 8:53 AM

Excellent post, Del. Wish more of CR4's blog entries were of this quality.

How did you get started in archery? Have you been doing this since you were a small kitten?

ps: if you want to post short, low-rez videos here, on Soon-To-Be-State-of-the-Art CR4, convert them to gifs, upload to imgur and post the link. For longer and/or full-rez videos, upload your video to The Cloud - Google Drive, Dropbox, etc - and post a public link. (I personally avoid YouTube because they often tell me I'm violating copyright on my OWN music videos. Morons.)

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#12
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 9:35 AM

Cheers, yeah, made bows as a kid like we all do, just never really stopped for too long. Got better at it over the years.

I'll have to try Google drive sometime, the prob is they all compress the files, even when you keep 'em short... birty dastards

Del

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#14
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 10:52 AM

Their streaming-video companders trade speed for resolution. If the video has lots of detail and/or motion, it ends up looking like crap. Sometimes it's just best to make the video file available for download rather than stream it. For example, this one is a streaming-compander's nightmare. It has never looked good on YouTube.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BypP4J_X-xbZN2RFT1BYeVp6aFk/edit?usp=docslist_api

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#15
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 10:59 AM

Their streaming-video companders trade speed for resolution. If the video has lots of detail and/or motion, it ends up looking like crap. Sometimes it's just best to make the video file available for download rather than stream it. For example, this one is a streaming-compander's nightmare. It has never looked good on YouTube.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BypP4J_X-xbZN2RFT1BYeVp6aFk/edit?usp=docslist_api

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#19
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 11:17 AM

CR4 has lately been issuing those old "Sorry, can't process form" messages but with a twist: it still complains *but processes 'the form' anyway.* Now when you copy your material and repost - the recommended workaround - you find it's already been posted. Result? Duplicate entries.

Sure would save a lot of hassle if they'd just get rid of those damn timeouts. That 15-minute one, too. If I spot a typo 16 minutes after posting why shouldn't I be allowed to fix it? Grrrr

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#30
In reply to #19

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/06/2014 8:28 AM

Glad it is not just me!

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#16
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 11:03 AM

Dropbox doesn't appear to do anything to the files - I uploaded a .MOV file, 277MB, of some kit at work, and it downloaded at home (and in Germany, FWIW) still 277MB. It's just treated as a file full of 1s and 0s. Imagine Google Drive is the same.

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#17
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 11:06 AM

Only when you stream do they apply compression. Downloads are treated like any other data.

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#18
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 11:10 AM

Sorry 'bout my edit

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#20

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 12:44 PM

Interesting post (as ever from you!!)

By the way, I find that hot melt glue from a glue gun, sticks quite well to plastic, but allows removal with strong fingers. The drill when everything is correctly lined up.....and make it permanent.....it should also work on a hard hat, but I have not actually tried a hard hat and hot glue.....it could melt it maybe......

I mount all my electronic project PCBs in usually small to medium plastic boxes with a hot glue gun, they stay put forever, but one good tug and its free again....again, what plastic is used in such boxes? - no idea!!

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#25
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 3:00 PM

Usually, ABS plastic is what they use.

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#26
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 3:12 PM

Has anyone tried hot glue on ABS? Does it stick?

I Always say that life begins with a Hot Glue Gun.......

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#27
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 3:38 PM

Yes, as well as hot glue sticks to anything.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 3:44 PM

Teflon?

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#29
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 5:40 PM

It will if you chemically etch the PTFE. I have a sheet of etched PTFE that can be glued to anything while the other etched-free side is nice and slippery.

I will say that hot melt glue has a ridiculously hard time sticking to ice cream.

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#23

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 2:20 PM

Dear Mr. Cat,

I represent the American patent trolls company LynDoor™Industries, Innovative Products Div.

The "Helmet Cam" product you show in your blog is an infringement of intellectual properties owned by the aforementioned upstanding company which patented the same product yesterday recently, before you introduced your inferior copy.

The benevolent owners have instructed my firm to collect a fee of one tin of tuna and a cold beer in exchange for continued use of the likeness of our product.

YVT,

H. Elliot DeweyIII Esq, Principal

Dewey, Cheatem and Howe.

PS Nice Job!

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#24
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/05/2014 2:42 PM

Dear sir, the catcam hatcam is a totally authentic copy of those worn by The French at Agincourt and thus is covered by prior art.

Del

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#32

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/06/2014 12:55 PM

Del, make a slo-mo video of you loosing those arrows., together with slo-mo's from the target's POV. That'd be cool.

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#34
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 2:45 AM

I could have multiple cameras, a smoke filled shooting range a 3D grid of lasers.... if only I had the resources, time and glamorous assistant.

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#35
In reply to #32

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 6:11 AM

Target-cam may only survive one shot (loosage? loosening? ). Remember the CD drive and the crossbow bolt?

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#36

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 9:35 AM

You wanna see me shooting at the camera?
The video shows me getting off 5 arrows in 25 second (from the first arrow being ready to draw.
At the weekend we were at a roving marks shoot (flags at unknown distances usually about 160 yards). On shot was 120 yards, as many shots as you could loose in 30 seconds. I got off 6 shots, two of which were within about 3' of the target, no time to watch the arrow land before you are nocking the next, pure instinct/experience. The scenario was shooting at a charging mounted adversary.

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#37
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 10:17 AM

Was brave, brave Sir Robbin there? He would have been the one running away.

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 11:42 AM

"Plugin not supported" it said. Guess I'll have to watch your video on a real computer.

Del, you've seen those little spycams the size of a fountain pen? Here's an engineering challenge for you: fit one into a custom arrow shaft/arrowhead. Pot everything for shock resistance and recess the camera (about the size of a pencil eraser) behind the tip using a short, polished, replaceable Lexan rod for the window.

Has anyone ever done this? It'd be a fat, funky-looking arrowhead to be sure but, if anyone could pull it off, you could, yes?

Video footage from a flying arrow? Hell, that might even go viral.

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#40
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 12:36 PM

It's been done. The spinning of the arrow makes it rather nauseating to watch.
funny that they had arrows spinning long before they thought of rifling to make bullets spin.
The natural asymmetry of feather fletchings makes an arrow spin. And that's why you don't mix left wing and right wing feathers! (seriously!)

Del

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#41
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 2:25 PM

No gyro-stablised camera platforms for The Archer Who Has Everything? Funny, I'd have thought they'd have long been in the shops by now...

Left and right feathers? You fletch your arrows with real feathers? Who's the lucky bird?

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#42
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 4:50 PM

Suspect (just a guess) that if they didn't spin, they'd be all over the place.

[Edit - oh, wait a minute - maybe I'd better find out how a gyro-stabilized missile works ]

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#43
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 5:35 PM

The irony is that target archers use plastic vanes which are either designed to induce spin or are glued on at a slight angle.
Traditional archers still use feather, usually Goose or Turkey

Del

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#44
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 7:50 PM

Laser guided arrows are next.

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#48
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/08/2014 7:27 AM

If you mount the laser on the arrow they will never miss.

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#47
In reply to #43

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/08/2014 3:14 AM

There has to be a joke or two in there somewhere!

Del, speaking to some poor Guy with an arrow (from Del!) sticking out of his butt, "you've just been goosed!"

Or similar. Surely there is also one for the other feather type:-

Del, speaking to some poor Guy with an arrow (from Del!) sticking out of his butt, "stop complaining! In the USA today is Thanksgiving Day!"

Come on Guys, put your thinking caps on!!

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#46
In reply to #40

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 9:25 PM

Rig it so that the shaft and arrowhead rotate independently and equip the arrowhead with small, adjustable trimtabs to give it a slight counterspin if it tends to rotate with the shaft. You could have a lot of fun with this.

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#49
In reply to #46

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/08/2014 4:08 PM

Aw, c'mon, let's go the whole hog

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#50
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/08/2014 7:27 PM

Where did Del get that cheesy turista headress? Knoxville?

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#53
In reply to #50

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/08/2014 11:34 PM

As robots go, that is a bit crappy, but a squib only has so many hours per day. Hours per night is much different .

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#54
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/09/2014 11:15 AM

At the speed that thing runs, I can easily imagine committing unnatural acts with it might take all night. Have you considered stepping up the voltage?

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#55
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/09/2014 11:22 AM

What's the hurry?

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#56
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/09/2014 11:54 AM

My webcam has only six hours of battery left?

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#58
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/09/2014 7:07 PM

Just chill and enjoy. Thing about robots - you don't need to rely on webcam recordings, you can start all over again next night. They don't mind (or go off in a hissy fit if it doesn't all go their way). And they're very patient. .

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#51
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/08/2014 7:37 PM

We developed a prototype that provides reasonably stable video enroute, but the overall form factor is still a bit pudgy (and pricey). Hope to skinny it down in time for Christmas.

Oh yes, almost forgot: in the interests of good public relations it announces its impending arrival:

"Good morning, Taliban! Time for your zero-five-thirty reveille."

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#45

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/07/2014 7:54 PM

I'm waiting for a view from the arrow cam.

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#52
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/08/2014 8:00 PM

That depends where it is headed and ends up.

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#57

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/09/2014 12:25 PM

Very interesting..... nice article and info you have.

I had just watch a slo-mo on a atlatl use to throw a spear or a dart. And it (Spear) it bend actual absorbs energy when you throw it, and then releases the energy in the air.

It pretty accurate as well as deadly.

When I can see the video, I look forward to it.

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#59

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/14/2014 7:34 PM

I used the 240 fps slow motion function on my Canon camera to balance a ceiling fan. I'm not sure whether the blades vary in mass or amount of thrust, but a lot of ceiling fans wobble on high speed. There is a kit you can buy with a little weight to be placed on one of the blades, at some distance from the center. The directions say to try different blades and distances (trial and error) until the best results are obtained. Due to the starting and stopping times and difficulty remembering the amount of wobble, it is very difficult to achieve good results.

The ceiling fan is supported by a ball joint at the top. There is a certain amount of static friction in the ball joint, so the wobble often doesn't start unless the fan is at high speed, where it is impossible to identify the individual blades.

I taped a brightly colored bit of paper to the outside of one of the blades, so that the blades could be identified in sequence. I sighted the video so that the blade tips passed directly in front of the ball joint supporting the fan. The blade that is lowest is the one that needs the weight. (Centrifugal force from the weight pulls that blade outward).

Once the blade is identified, it is a simple matter of moving the weight in and out, comparing the target blade with the others. Starting at the center of the blade, a few iterations gives you a good feel for which direction and how much to move it, realizing that moving the weight outward raises the blade tip.

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#60
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/14/2014 8:50 PM

I need some help understanding why the lowest blade needs the weight, and also why moving the weight out raises the blade tip!

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#61
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/14/2014 11:10 PM

Now that you question it, I went back and looked at it again, and I am thinking that my explanation is in error. I moved the weight toward the center, and the blade is higher, the opposite of what I was remembering. (It was some time ago that I originally balanced it.)

My initial idea was that the extra weight on a blade would tend to swing the fan out in that direction, raising that blade. That is too simplistic.

What's really going on, I believe, is that the center of gravity of the fan is slightly shifted by moving the weight. Any object that is rotating has two stable axes of rotation, corresponding to the maximum and minimum moments of inertia. If the fan is unbalanced, its stable axis of rotation is not concentric with the motor shaft, and hence the wobble.

Adding weight to one side shifts the stable axis in that direction, so the heavier side will be lower, not because of the extra weight, but because it is dynamically balanced on that axis (which doesn't align with the motor axis).

Here's an example. Imagine an ice skater spinning on the ice. She is spinning about her stable axis (minimum moment of inertia). If she were holding a weight in her hand, she would be leaning away from the weight to spin stably, just as the fan leans away from the extra weight to wobble slightly.

Thank you for questioning my theory. I should have thought it through a little more thoroughly.

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#62
In reply to #61

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/15/2014 12:07 AM

Thanks! That sounds much better. I like your skater example.

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#63

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/15/2014 2:10 AM

Good slo mo usage

I had a bow explode in my hand yesterday... unfortunately I wasn't filming. It was a very fast bow and went with one heck of a bang

Del

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/15/2014 3:39 AM

By the way, do you have good eye protection when drawing a Bow? It sounds like a good idea if not!

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#65
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Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/15/2014 6:47 AM

Nope The bits blow outwards. Occasionally they can pivot round on the point where the string is attached... they may then whack on the top of your head... well my head really.

Del

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/15/2014 12:49 PM

You make it sound funny, but what if the parts remained partially connected..... or they shot out splinters?

But I suspect that normal safety glass would put your aim off slightly, optically?

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#67
In reply to #65

Re: Slo' Mo' Hat Cam

07/15/2014 12:49 PM

Hence the hard-hat? You could've put that cam on a beanie.

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