All-Electric, Hybrid, or Hydrogen?

I think the first technology to emerge (full-scale) will be the one that can "bring" as much money as the petroleum does. If we go all-electric at a reasonable price, there will be huge amounts of taxes lost. Raising the price of electricity will only impoverish the mass unless of course, one can separate the electricity provided for the home/industries vs the one for the car (i.e. "electro-station", much like the gas stations of today's reality) but this would mean some serious infrastructure investments. Although Hydrogen is not practical/feasible (cost-wise), it would be much easier to tax which is why, IMHO, the governments are pushing it so much.

Start pouring the same amount of R&D money into the All-electric car as they do into the hydrogen and come up with a DIY kit (or something specialized garages could do) for the common folk at a reasonable price (since car companies are under the "thumb" of the governments/petroleum industries). I have no doubt that a lot of people (myself included) would jump on the occasion to do what's best for mother earth....

enough ranting.

R.

but this would mean some serious infrastructure investments. ?????

Surely the infrastructure for car charging stations would be very cheap?....

Gas stations and just about every establishment ...even most carparks, already have mains electricity. So High current low voltage supplies and appropriate connectors would be all that was required.... much cheaper than digging out a big hole for a gas tank.

Hydrogen is probably more expensive in infrastructure terms as the distribution network doesn't exist in any significant scale.

Hi Del,

What I meant is that it would be more expansive than developing a car that you could just plug in at home using regular voltage but then they (governments) would be losing a lot of taxes. I read somewhere that prepaid cards could be one of the answers where the card would be inserted in a reader in the car in order to activate it. We shall see.

regards,

Rick.

True.... I see what you mean.

Hi, my name is Nmeu. Am I missing a point, most blogs talk about Hybrid, or Hydrogen vehicles still having to use mains electrical supply or a existing fuel stations. Will this not just shift the load of a sinking ship. I am currently working on a self sustainable source of usable energy to replace commercially supplied fuels and electricity, it will not do away with these supplies but it will not ad to the green house problem.

This is just a view from the side line. Regards NMEU

No mains Electricity Used

Cool,

Care to elaborate and/or press "UnHide" ?

k♥rt

I'm with Del on this since from my perspective it is best to build from infrastructures that are already built. Recharging of batteries in cars could be done at any home that has electricity. The hybrid is attractive because of its range that is enabled by the gastank. The hydrogen fuel cell is attractive because of the range it enables that is competitive with the gas tank.

I've driven cars and trucks for long distances in as short a time as possible which was enabled by my ablity to stop and get fuel.

My friend has a battey powered truck that has a range of 40 miles before it needs recharging.

I have to drive only 13 miles a day to get to work, but then I have to drive the truck up to 200 miles in a day to supply the two to three crews I support.

My friends' electric truck simply does not have the range.

Hence the hybrid is recommended, but what form is the best hybrid to take?

What other than petroleum products could be put in the tanks of gas stations as they are that would power hybrids enabling the life we are used to?

If I had contol of the world as we barrel into the bottleneck, and was an empowered dictator, I would chose a number of electric motors, tell my designers to figure out how to power them, and phase out vehicles that don't run on minimums.

In my ideal world geothermal electric power would recharge all motorvehicles regardless of size or carry capacity. In my ideal world every personal vehicle that got less than 20 miles a gallon would be immediately destroyed.

I would mandate that my designers make motors and vehicles that ran from grid recharging off of common outlets, vehicles that could make independent of recharging, 800 miles.

This would be a hell of a challenge and require full integration of all known power generating technologies.

I want to know what the most powerful and lightest electric motor is.

As a move forward, tractor trailers ought really to be mandated to run from electric motors the same way as trains do. The transmissions could then be elimanated. The trailer roofs could be solar paneled to augment the hybrid motors and charge the batterys or run the motor.

The fact of the matter as far as the planet is concerned, is that if you burn everything up, it gets hotter.

Trains are very efficient for moving great weights over long distances and some of the technology of trains is highly recommended.

The most passive place to get heat to make grid electricity is the center of the hot earth and a geothermal powered grid is the safest when you take into account manufacturing factors for solar panels and windmills.

That is where I am at in this discussion now. Your thoughts are of importance and interest.

Time for dinner.

Neither technology has any long term future; lets face reality when oil runs dry the world grinds to a juddering halt. Hydrogen does not have a great enough calorific capacity for the purpose of transport. Hybrids are a dead end technology because they employ two means of propulsion, this means that while using one the other is dead weight being dragged along. Batteries are too heavy, expensive, unreliable and need charging too frequently. Electric is a lost cause. Star breeding horses again they will be our new transport of the future. Discuss.

Dear Brainwave,

What we are looking for is a transformational invention, or system. I do see the Hybrid myself as transitional. There have been some promising advances in battery tech. As well it is not really all that terrible for a machine to have two propulsion systems. Hell when I'm walking I'm standing on one foot and moving the other, works pretty good. Advanced machines like airplanes build in redundancy and are often carrying around two systems. Many submarines are diesel and electric which is what I am positing as an advance if it were applied to trucks.

I think there are some Hybrid buses on the streets around here.

Another factor is the increasingly complete urbanization of the world. I much loved living in Manhattan since I could pick the transportation appropriate to my needs at the time. (I never drove unless it was making me money, since I drove a lighting and grip truck.)

We are sort of stuck now with near maxiums as far as people are concerned. In the seventies it was calculated that the maximum possible population of people on the planet was 13 Billion, and that that was sustainable for about 3 weeks.

Education, population control, urbanization, and technology and systems integration do offer some hope that mankind can get through the bottleneck according to the Political Scientist Jared Diamond.

Don't be so dreary.

What if you get the grid power from geothermal and charge battery powered vehicles that have two sets of batteries so one is always being charged off the other by the motor? Maybe the problem with Electric Vehicles is that they aren't big enough to carry the batteries? Maybe they ought to be the size of an SUV so as to support the technology?

What if you just groove every highway with a powerslot like the old hobby slotcars I used to race and power the line from geothermal and solar and wind and tidewater turbines, not to mention Niagria Falls?

The original question was whether or not Hydrogen Fuel Cells, were better than batteries and hybrids, I think.

The imperatives and problems have to do with infrastructure. Worldwide urbanization has created a massive electric distribution grid that is most suited to expansion if you factor in the shortening time with which to transition and transform transportation energy use and production.

The taxation and power issues were talked of earlier in this discussion.

The issues of vested interests and politics do figure into the equation.

However in the past there have been times when leadership has triumphed over stupidity. Human history is as full of things and times and people to be proud of, as events to lament and avoid.

Of course Ike would now be demanding results and getting them.

To end this post I say that as things are right now, We have the technology! and ought to feel positive about that. What we don't have is a generally understood and accepted system for integrating and using what we do know.

I suggest that since we know that the world is wired, and that elecricity can turn motors and heat and cool and is actually right commonly available from everything from saltwater and metal scraps to solar panels and heat down in the ground, that it would be possible to provide motive power for transportation from those sources to bypass oil, if the system drove the infrastucture design.

I think that what ever it is it has to be a market that can be cornered by an industry like the oil industry. Nothing that is readily available or can easily be produced by an individual will be pushed forward. This is the reason that unless something else comes along it may be hydrogen. It may be easy to produce but the safe containment of large enough quantities is a problem with the fuel cell technology now available, as I understand it.
At one time alcohol was the fuel of the future but anyone could produce it and it is adaptable to most vehicles with no storage problems. This would not be exceptable, hydrogen may end up in the same position if fuel cells become easily marketed and rechargeable.
The corporates of the world may be waiting for another product to use.