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Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

Posted February 05, 2008 12:01 AM by Sharkles

Every day, I am bombarded with subliminal messages from advertisers, lawyers, marketing professionals, etc. I can't watch television, surf the Internet, or even buy a cup of coffee without hearing advertisements that scream for my attention. Why? In American culture (I don't know about everywhere else), consumption is omnipresent. Some of the loudest messages I hear are food advertisements. It's not enough that the United States is known as home to some of the world's biggest people, but Americans are continuously encouraged to eat.

Not only is consumption causing a water shortage in the United States, but our meat consumption is estimated to be about twice the global average. According to a recent New York Times article, the global demand for meat has multiplied in recent years. This growth has made it necessary for the proliferation of massive, confined animal feeding operations. Meat factories leave a large carbon footprint as they consume huge amounts of energy, pollute water supplies, generate greenhouse gases, and require the growing of more grains.

The impact of America's grain dependency has led to the destruction of large amounts of the world's tropical rain forests. Last week, the President of Brazil instituted an emergency halt on cutting and burning in that South American nation's rain forests. According to the Brazilian government, 1,250 square miles of rain forest were destroyed for crop and grazing land in only five months. Brazil is not alone in recognizing the ill effects of our grain dependency. "The environmental impact of growing so much grain for animal feed is profound," warns the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). "Agriculture in the United States — much of which now serves the demand for meat — contributes to nearly three-quarters of all water-quality problems in the nation's rivers and streams."

In 1961, the world's total meat supply was estimated at 71 million tons. In 2007, that same supply was estimated at 284 million tons, and meat consumption is expected to double again by the year 2050. Last year, the National Institute of Livestock and Grassland Science of Japan conducted a study of carbon dioxide emissions from beef. The study concluded that raising about 2.2 pounds of beef is responsible for producing the same amount of carbon dioxide emissions from the average European car every 155 miles, and burns enough energy to light a 100-watt light bulb for about 20 days. These facts don't even address the emissions from transporting livestock and sending packaged beef to market.

But I love Hamburgers! What Can We Do?

As meat consumption increases, so do the prices. Nevertheless, higher prices are not expected to reduce consumption. So what do we do? There are alternatives besides worldwide vegetarianism, of course, but none are an easy fix. One solution is to improve farming practices and waste management. In Israel and Korea, experiments are being conducted to see if animal waste can be converted into electricity. Similarly, in the United States, large hog operations are also aiming and partially succeeding at converting hog manure into fuel.

Another suggestion is that we return to the days of grazing beef; however, this would mean less beef available. Michael Pollan, author of "In Defense of Food", says "In places where you can't grow grain, fattening cows on grass is always going to make more sense". Grazing cows may not produce as much meat, but this approach is something that can be done locally. Before the massive meat factories, meat was (and still is to an extent) raised by local farmers. Returning to this local approach would cut emissions from transportation, and would less energy than running a factory.

What many people don't know is how meat factories run. I've heard and read some horror stories about the real costs of the meat industry. As a result, I even tried vegetarianism for awhile. We've come a long way since Upton Sinclair published The Jungle, but animal welfare and the cleanliness of industrial meat production might still make you cringe.


Resources:
http://environment.newscientist.com/article/mg19526134.500-meat-is-murder-on-the-environment.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?_r=1&em&ex=1201928400&en=ad89b01e3854c802&ei=5087%0A&oref=slogin

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/1670

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#1

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/05/2008 11:51 AM

the companys that produce this crap do not care about what is made, just what is profitable. that is why so much crap is bad for you, and so many people are over weight. besides, meat isnt that good for you anyway, ever since i stopped eating it, i feel much better.

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#2

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/05/2008 1:25 PM

Lordy, what will they think of next...now it's meat that's causing the general decline of western society..jeeze... So it's bad to grow grain for animal food to make hamburgers, but ok to grow grain for ethanol to power your silly little eco-box car? I'm suprised that no one has blamed the sudden increase in CO2 emissions on exhaling. That's the real problem! "... Studies show that the amount of CO2 being exhaled is double now from what it was when there were only 3 billion people on the planet..." If you listen to some of these nitwits, it seems the only way to save ourselves is to starve to death - just don't be cremated, that adds to the carbon particulates in the air. If the rather sizeable portion of humanity that we're always told is starving (e.g., Asia, Africa, etc) could eat a good ol' Big Mac every couple of days, they'd have enough energy to devote their lives to education, science, good works, etc etc etc instead of having to spend 23 hours a day scrabbling for a few bits of rice.

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#18
In reply to #2

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 10:08 PM

Your use of Feynman's quote is ironic, since the force feeding of livestock in factory farms is detrimental to their health--unnatural--and thus requires massive antibiotics to keep them alive long enough to slaughter. And grass fed livestock emit about half as much methane as grain fed, causing far more damage to the atmosphere than CO2. Also "scrabbling for a few bits of rice" will net many more calories than feeding the grain to edible animals. In addition, excessive protein intake interferes with absorption of some minerals and vitamins in humans. If we put aside destructive prejudicial cultural pre-dispositions, the Human species may have a chance of surviving.

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#3

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/05/2008 5:07 PM

"In 1961, the world's total meat supply was estimated at 71 million tons. In 2007, that same supply was estimated at 284 million tons, and meat consumption is expected to double again by the year 2050."

So what's really driving this increased demand? It's trendy to blame the United States for the world's environmental problems, but do these numbers tell the whole story? Let's look at some population data. The 1960 U.S. Census put the nation's population at roughly 179 million. By 2000, the U.S. population had grown to 281 million. Some of the increased demand for meat is due to there being more Americans, and some of the demand is due to increased American consumption per person. But how much is the U.S. really to blame? Any statisticians out there?

Sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Census,_1960

http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-2.pdf

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#24
In reply to #3

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/07/2008 12:33 PM

Moose,

I don't have statistics, but I do know that the US does consume more meat per person than any other country in the world. However, this is changing dramatically as China, Japan, Russia, and Europe are catching up.

I love cheeseburgers and T-bone steaks so much, it's really hard for me to argue against meat, but the truth is there are serious problems. What they do to chicken and cow to get them to grow bigger and produce better tasting meat is horrible and in the long run not healthy for us at all.

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#4

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 5:40 AM
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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 1:17 PM

I just lost my apetite...

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#9
In reply to #4

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 3:12 PM

Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing. Kettle's on

What's in the kettle?

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#16
In reply to #9

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 4:36 PM

It is what he uses to distil his moonshine?

Spencer.

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#6

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 2:24 PM

"The impact of America's grain dependency has led to the destruction of large amounts of the world's tropical rain forests. "

Huh?

I'm mystified as to what you postulate the cause and effect relationship is between "our " grain farming and the cutting down of forests in Brazil. Are you suggesting that our grain farms would otherwise be used for timber? And furthermore, that if we ate less beef, there would be less North America Grain Farming, and thus Less Harvesting of Brazilian forests?

The claim that you make does not follow. Because North Americans grow our grain, we use more tropical wood? No connection between these two assertions can be found in this post. You are presenting a defective strict conditional claim. http://tinyurl.com/2dl86p

Yes we live in an interconnected world. Yes everything in the biosphere affects the biosphere, and thus everything else. But your claim as stated lacks feet; DO you walk to work, or do you carry your lunch? Its a defective question, as one does not logically follow the other.

You have not demonstrated causality, and can at best claim mere simultaneity, perhaps, correlation.

milo

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 2:38 PM

Please note the disclaimer at the top of this blog:

This is a controversial blog where I try to present interesting topics that are controversial. Just because I choose to write about these particular controversies does not always mean that I am taking a side. I just want to let people know what is being said.

Please don't attack me personally for merely presenting information. I have never claimed to be an environmentalist. To answer your questions: no, I do not walk to work; I don't live close enough to my job that this is possible. I do carry my lunch, but I don't know what that has to do with anything.

As for grain and the rain-forests, it is my understanding that the rain-forests are being cut down to make room for farmland for growing grain. To quote the New York Times article that I referenced, "Just this week, the president of Brazil announced emergency measures to halt the burning and cutting of the country's rain forests for crop and grazing land. In the last five months alone, the government says, 1,250 square miles were lost."

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 3:12 PM

Not an attack. Certainly not an ad honinem attack.

I agree with controversial, and your right to be so.

I disagree with presenting unsupported defective conditional arguments as valid assumptions.

I would agree that there is increased demand for grain, and then would also point out that new uses and direct uses including both ethanol for fuel and ethanol for partying are more relevant drivers for new demand, than indirect continent away issues. not to mention improved diet standards in Asia.

Same disclaimer about interconnectedness, yada yadaya.

My comments were respectful and limited topointing out the fallacy of the purported claim.

milo

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#23
In reply to #7

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/07/2008 2:54 AM

Certain people on CR4 react like old Roman senators, if you deliver bad news, they then try and kill the messenger!!! Sadly its fairly common and shows a complete lack of understanding with regard to the problems described, or reality, as usual !!!

I will not be staying around on this blog to see what happens further, it will just get boring as the USA to a man, tries to refute any criticism of its internal policies. Seen it, been there and got the T-Shirt!! Many times!!

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#8

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 2:41 PM

a few questions miss kate

judging from the length of the blog i percieve you are a animal rights, environmental protection activist (beleive it or not i too am a PRACTICING conservationist very concerned with the conditions called global warming by virtue of coastal groundfish stock depletions as were noted in 1939) and vegan lifestyle supporter, is this correct?

if yes and i suspect it is, how have you as person supported the planets occupants wether human or whatever species who by reason of genetic allergic or induced medical condition are prevented from active participation in your and your associates espoused philosophies so that consumption of your or thier choices of nutrients may be done in a manner respective and to their individual (or collective) conditions neuro-bio-immuno-physio-psychological processing abilities at whatever level or intellectual and physical capacity?

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#11
In reply to #8

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 3:12 PM

Alright, I guess I should clarify a few things (although I thought I already had in my previous comment and disclaimer at the top of this blog).

Just because I write about a topic, doesn't mean that I am advocating that position. Rather, I am just passing along information that I find to be useful / thought-provoking.

You ask if I am an animal rights activist, an environmentalist, and a vegan. Although I love animals and care about the state of the environment, I wouldn't consider myself an activist for either. As for being a vegan, no way. I did the vegetarian thing for awhile to test it out, but it was only temporary. I'm sorry if I gave off the "I don't eat meat and that makes me better than you" vibe, because if i did it was unintentional.

As for people with food allergies, what do you want to know? Like I said before, I am not saying that people should stop eating meat. Since I am interested in Global Warming discussions, I thought that I would pass along information that I thought others might also find of interest.

I never claimed to be the perfect person. I do what I can on a daily basis. Do I kill myself in attempts to save the world? No. And I'm not saying that anyone else should either. I think the best thing that people can do is be aware of new information. Even if you believe that the information in this blog entry is a bunch of crap, at least you know what people are saying.

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#20
In reply to #11

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 10:44 PM

Well posted for provoking thought about fuzzy thinking.

Just because I write about a topic, doesn't mean that I am advocating that position. Rather, I am just passing along information that I find to be useful / thought-provoking.

A more logical train of thought (and as inaccurate) would be OPEC selling oil at $90. per barrel is destroying the jungle to plant sugarcane. The reality is we are willing to buy at $90. per barrel and Brazil wants to keep its fuel money in the country instead of running up more debt.

My family prefers to grow our own meat. The cost of grain is high (due to ethanol and fuel prices) so meat costs more. South America can grow meat cheaper.

They choose to profit from this difference.

As for the Advertising: Yes our products will make you as stupid as our adds are. They are trying to get through your auto add wear from add overload. What are they trying to insinuate? That is why the words rarely match the picture. It is a form of seduction. Personally I can't stand them. Knowing how they work is even worse. Take the Super-bowl, great game, terrible adds. The only one I liked was for the opposite gender.

Vegetarian: Ancient word for very poor hunter.

Oh the rhubarb cobbler is ready and the bread should be finished baking soon.

Brad

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#45
In reply to #20

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/13/2008 9:50 PM

Vegetarian: Ancient word for very poor hunter.

I have often wonder how many vegetarians have actually grown their own vegatables!! It is hot, back breaking work.!!

I have grown vegtables and still do. I have also butchered animals for meat. Some of which I fed while they were growning up. Just call me a farmer's kid when I was growing up.

I still hunt, fish and butcher deer.

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#46
In reply to #45

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/13/2008 10:49 PM

It is hot, back breaking work.!!

So true! Last years it was a 1/4 acre. Way to many tomatoes and peppers (gave away flats). Did have a 53lb. watermelon. Canned 24 courts of peaches and 24 more of cherries. Also had about 30 volunteer sunflowers (dove weed) filled a garbage can with the heads to feed the birds in the winter.

Next year the raspberries will produce. The 1 pecan and 2 walnut trees taste great.

Just had deer for supper

Keep up the good work

Brad

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 4:02 PM

Could you translate this sentence for me. It makes no sense as written. Maybe break it up with a few periods and rationale sentences? One should try to write so that the crux of their belief is somewhat comprehensible.

if yes and i suspect it is, how have you as person supported the planets occupants wether human or whatever species who by reason of genetic allergic or induced medical condition are prevented from active participation in your and your associates espoused philosophies so that consumption of your or thier choices of nutrients may be done in a manner respective and to their individual (or collective) conditions

And then let me ask you a question. How does questioning the source of one's food prevent others from eating what they chose?

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#66
In reply to #12

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/16/2008 1:44 AM

translation - the knee bone's not connected to the ankle bone...

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#17
In reply to #8

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 6:02 PM

...'how have you as person supported the planets occupants wether human or whatever species who by reason of genetic allergic or induced medical condition are prevented from active participation in your and your associates espoused philosophies so that consumption of your or thier choices of nutrients may be done in a manner respective and to their individual (or collective) conditions neuro-bio-immuno-physio-psychological processing abilities at whatever level or intellectual and physical capacity?"

Dude.

Punctuation.

Please.

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#13

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 4:08 PM

anti- animal use? i didn't get that from the entry she did. hmmm. besides on the side of her entry, some grazing animals do ruin the environment. Some...not all. Don't rant about it, they will eat all the way to the soil...ruining the soil and taking a long time for anything to grow.

and growing crops constantly on the same soil, depending on the crops, tobacco for instance, sucks all life out of the soil, killing it.

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#14

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 4:12 PM

Hi Kate, your comments start with remarks about how americans are bombarded with advertising exhorting them to eat more whilst obesity is continuing to be a problem. However, after citing various stats about environmental issues you then seem to be concluding that less intensively farmed animals are possibly the way forward – how does this relate to the obesity issue?

Could it be that -

(a) Poor education and low incomes in a marketing intensive society contribute to the obesity problem in an industrialized world.

(b) Shareholders in corporations expect profits which is why intensive factory farming will continue to dominate unless someone comes up with an alternative realistic business model.

As a bonus, if you sort out the issues in (a) and (b), maybe the environment might also improve a little.

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#15

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 4:26 PM

This brings us back to the "cloned cow" entry that was published a few weeks ago.

Maybe cloned beef could be our solution with the cloned cows eating cloned grain grown from cloned soil??

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#19

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 10:21 PM

Here's a link from USDA the US is the largest importer & Brazil the largest exporter of beef. As producers of protein cattle aren't particularily efficent. Cattle out gas copious amounts of methane which is a significent greenhouse gas & smog producing agent. no matter your position on climate change, smog is nasty stuff. Solid & liquid waste only account for around 1/4 of the methane cows produce.

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#21
In reply to #19

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/06/2008 11:34 PM

Cattle out gas copious amounts of methane which is a significent greenhouse gas & smog producing agent.

Is this the reason visibility is so bad out in the country where farms are numerous?

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/07/2008 12:02 AM

I can't decide if you are serious or not?

Here in the central valley of california smog has increased as the dairies moved from the south (LA basin) & the coast in search of cheap land.

Which make more methane a million cows or a million people?

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#25

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/07/2008 6:21 PM

You are right about the advertising. They do scream for your attention. Thats what they get paid for. If you let them. Where is your will power. Do you buy every advertisers product you see?

You have tacked on a lot to the issue that I feel is unrelated.

People are not fat just because they eat meat. It's because they eat too much junk period. Most of it high in carbohydrates. There are people in the far north that their only diet is meat they are not fat. I do not understand how consumption of beef is causing water shortages since the majority of water use is for personal hygiene. People purchase food stuffs on what is available and what they can afford. There are also religious reason. So our meat consumption being twice what the global average is don't tell me much. A lot of the world gets their protein from consumption of insects. Maybe you would like that ground up and on your burger roll. Be better for you not as fating.

Now the reason I replied in talking a about the meat factories you supplied a picture of cows in a barn. Well the cows in the barn are Holsteins they are raise for milk production not beef for human consumption. Though at the end of their lives the meat may be use. Mostly for dog food. The grain in front of them that is taxing our farm land has been spiked with vitamins to improve the quality of our milk. It also has been sweeten to get the cows to come to the milking barn on ther own accord to be milked. Which is where I believe this picture was taken. Not in a massive meat factory. Most of what you see as meat factories is the holding pins for the meat companies. They are fed massive amounts of grain to fatten them up. Why is because of greed because meat is sold buy the pound.

A note that in the 1850 there were an estimated 60 million head of American buffalo roaming freely thru out the prairies of our country. The largest herd of land animals that the worlds ever knew. Their carbon dioxide emission must of been a great detriment to nature. By your way of thinking our land should be in waste.

Oh EAT MORE BEEF!!!

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 10:45 AM

I think you've misconstrued the point of the story.

Is it really such an offensive idea that Americans as a people are consuming too much meat? I don't think its an unreasonable message.

The blog says "Another suggestion is that we return to the days of grazing beef; however, this would mean less beef available."

Is the idea of letting our meat graze on grass rather than force feeding them corn so deplorable?

These objections that I've been reading in these responses to this blog seem more like misguided attempts at machismo than any arguments of real substance. I thought the article was even handed and informative.

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#27
In reply to #26

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 11:14 AM

"I thought the article was even handed and informative."

Well it seems confused, logic strained, and as others pointed out, even mis-illustrated.

Some of its claims add a bit of a luddite flavor to the hauty elitist enviro position "Let them eat grass" (It's local it must be better!)

But that might just be the Roman Senator side of me talking. Any one who questions the GAIA worshippers assumptions is held to be reactionary. That is the polarization (polarisation) that exists in Science today- Litmus test is either you're a true believer that humanity is a pox on the planet, or youre a reactionary. No critical thinking permitted unless it is congruent with the sky is falling crowd. Gaia fellow traveller is orthodox; holding Gaia worshippers claims to the light of reason is questioning legitimacy and therefore heretical.

I think that this was/is a great topic; as it points out possible consequences of our daily actions and decisions; reveals that there are discrepancies between the claims of various parties, and also points out the role of linguistics and its failure in our discourse. that some policy wonk thinks that you fatten cattle on grass is as much a failure of language as it is a failure of their 'understanding' of the agriculture. Grass is subsistence forage not 'fattening.' Grass fed beef is lower fat (that means lower flavor) and lower calorie. I like well marbled beef for grilling, and I can frankly say that my uncle bobs locally pastured cattle were lousy on the grill compared to what I can buy at the store.

My compliments to Kate for the topic.

milo

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 1:51 PM

Don't you think you're being a little dramatic? I mean, all she wrote was that meat all the time is bad for us, there is an environmental impact, and perhaps a solution might be to allow cows to graze naturally again. Are you sure it's her that is the intolerant whack job?

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#29
In reply to #28

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 2:22 PM

Dramatic? ME? or the sky is falling crowd? I don't believe that i was dramatic at all.

As was pointed out, she is the messenger, and did her duty to bring us this controversial topic.. The "whack jobs" are the "intolerant of any opposing thought" folks quoted in the press who manage to jump to brazilian deforestation as a result of US feedlots, with out establishing any kind of causal link.

As I communicated to KATE in a private email, I just try to keep the logic and the math tidy, and there seemed to be plenty of illogic in the materials that she posted.

I' may be a reactionary roman senator, but I try to keep it respectful.

Thanks for the clarifying question.

milo

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 2:49 PM

You Wrote "Dramatic? ME? or the sky is falling crowd? I don't believe that i was dramatic at all."

Aren't you one of "the sky is falling crowd"? I mean, here is a sampling of some of your posts:

"No critical thinking permitted "
"That is the polarization (polarisation) that exists in Science today"
"Any one who questions the GAIA worshippers assumptions is held to be reactionary."
"The "whack jobs" are the "intolerant of any opposing thought" folks quoted in the press "

You seem a bit over the top. What's with the whole "Gaia" worshiper thing? Isn't that just a dramatic way of saying "Earth", or are you suggesting that your opinion is sacrosanct and anyone who disagrees with you must be such an extremist as to worship the subject of their argument (in this case Earth) like a god? Because that seemed to be your implication, and it strikes me as dramatic.

How about your whole "Roman Senator" thing? What's that about? Look if you want to be clever, say Patrician. The Roman Senate was basically a powerless body for half its existence, filled at times with the dregs of society. I'm assuming you don't want to be mistaken for that kind of Roman Senator, so I'm guessing you mean Patrician which was the ruling class of the Roman Republican. Basically the noble families of Rome which populated the Senate (until the Caesars of the world filled it with their goons).

But maybe I'm wrong, you seem pretty fervent in your whole "Roman Senator" approach. Maybe you're a goon.

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 3:21 PM

See post23.

"No critical thinking permitted "
"That is the polarization (polarisation) that exists in Science today"
"Any one who questions the GAIA worshippers assumptions is held to be reactionary."
- nobrag, just observations

I was not the first person to use "whack jobs" I actually try to avoid such ad hominem terms.

Gaia is the Earth Goddess, which seems about right for the way the current fashion is to worship the 'environmental ways.' When its worship, we will use Gaia; when its science, we'll use scientifc terms.

Peace.

milo

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 4:27 PM

You Wrote "I was not the first person to use "whack jobs" I actually try to avoid such ad hominem terms."

Ad Hominem - consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

Selected Milo Quotes (That may be perceived as "ad hominem")

"Huh?" Milo's very first reply to the blog. Reply seeks to discredit the argument of the blog by implying the Author's argument is somehow incomprehensible.

"But your claim as stated lacks feet" Milo is unspecific in the claim to which he is referring. Such generality implies "all claims" which means Milo is telling the author that she in fact has no valid points.

"You have not demonstrated causality" Milo attacks the authors ability to structure an argument rather than the argument of the author itself. An impartial observer, even in disagreement, would be hard pressed to say the author of the blog did not present cause and effect in her argument.

"My comments were respectful and limited topointing[sic] out the fallacy of the purported claim." Again, despite the fact that the article makes many claims, Milo fails to elucidate upon which he considers false, implying that all the claims were in fact false. This is an attack on the credibility of the author implying all statements by this author are false.

"Well it seems confused, logic strained, and as others pointed out, even mis-illustrated." Milo once again demonstrates how he abhors personal attacks with the term "misillustrated" which implies a conscious deception on the part of the author. Milo distances himself from such an obvious direct attack with the excuse that he is merely quoting someone else.

"Some of its claims add a bit of a luddite flavor to the hauty[sic] elitist enviro position" I think this one speaks for itself.

Ad Hominem

Milo, you wrote "I actually try to avoid such ad hominem terms.", yet above you have clearly sought to appeal to a characteristic or belief of the person rather than the argument by using such terms as "elitist enviro position" and "mis-illustrated", which is pretty much the definition of Ad Hominem.

I don't think you did this intentionally. It is my belief that you were unaware of the complete definition of Ad Hominem and thought it only meant "direct personal attacks" whereas your attacks are clearly indirect. Sadly, ad hominem refers to both types, so I must regret to inform you that you do in fact use ad hominem terms.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 4:34 PM

I guess DESCRIBING your points as being "strict constructionist" would also be ad hominem?

I don't agree.

Cheers.

milo

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 4:44 PM

I wasn't aware we were debating law.

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#37
In reply to #27

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/09/2008 9:13 AM

to milo , i am sorry to put it the way i will but i know no other way to ask this question. in the post02/08/2008/011:14 you have put some very class spokin to the page whut zactly do ya mean with them fancy words ya is printed?

In other words I really would like to be able to undesrtand what you are writing but forgive me I do not, would you be kind enough to bring out the idea in different words so that I as a person with limited education may understand that paragraphs' intent?

thanks

'da ber

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#31
In reply to #26

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/08/2008 3:03 PM

I will agree most Americans eat too much processed meat like hamburger. Which I would consider junk food.

A large majority of our cattle is grazed on grass lands. They are then sold to meat packing company's which then take them to holding pens. While there they are fed large amounts of grain to put on fat. The packing company sells the meat by the pound just as you buy from the store. Every pound of fat gained is more profit.

"I thought the article was even handed and informative."

To talk about meat factories and provide a picture of milk cows in a milking barn is a little under handed. Most people do not know one type of cow from another.

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#39
In reply to #31

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/10/2008 10:49 AM

Ozzb wrote:

"A large majority of our cattle is grazed on grass lands. They are then sold to meat packing company's which then take them to holding pens. While there they are fed large amounts of grain to put on fat.",

Not really, ozzb. At least not for the huge majority of commercial beef production in North America. The breeders sell calves to feed lots. Those calves are fed some combination of grain, silage, and hay until they are market size. In many feed lots the cows have access to grass pasture, in some they don't. In some cases they go from feed lot to a finishing / fattening operation which feeds them all grain or adds corn syrup to the feed in order to make the meat even more marbled with fat, but usually not. The meat packing companies buy the fattened cattle at a set price per pound, then slaughter them as quickly as possible thereafter. Meat packing companies don't want to have to feed or maintain cattle any longer than absolutely necessary. Because every day they hold those cattle, they have to feed and water them, or loose margin because the cattle are losing weight which the meat packers already paid for.

By the way, what do you imagine happens to all the male calves born to freshened milk cows each year? They become steers, and are fed out to produce beef. As do the culls or surplus female calves. My father-in-law runs a feedlot farm within what is primarily dairy country, so his calves don't come from far away, but his full-grown beef cattle travel pretty far to market. He used to breed and fatten only ultra-prime beef, that market is now much smaller than it was, according to him.

Anna

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#65
In reply to #39

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 7:32 PM

I know quite well what happens to all the calves not wanted by the dairy farmer. In my youth I have played with those young bulls as you would a pet. I have helped my uncle take them to market and listen while he complained about the price they offered. In this area a lot of them are slaughtered for veal so there is no fatting them.

If you live in an area where there is a lot of large dairy's then I can see that happening. With the over abundance of young calves they would flood the veal market. Ranches I have seen in the west raise the cows full term before shipping to market. There they are fatten in holding pins. The grasses of arid lands of Texas do not put much fat on a cow. Nether does the swamp lands on Florida. I don't think a grass fed cow would ever put on the amount of fat we see on our meat in the market.

I don't think that the market has gotten smaller. Maybe it was economics on your father-in-laws part. Buying calves that are a hard sell, raising them for the beef market. He can take twice as many to market, The land no longer has to support the breeding stock. I probably have made the same decision. I have also been with my uncle when he brought the same calves back from the market because they wouldn't give him anything for them. The local dairy farmer are most likely making out better with him. I wish him the best farming of any type is hard work. Been there.

I know that most of the beef cattle raise here are raised full term before being sent to market. There they are fatten.

I have read all the comments and complaints about these beef factories and no one has said anything about the pork industry. Which has been raising pork like this for a long while. Ever been to a egg laying operation or one raising chickens for meat. The quality of life for these animals suck. The are though being raised for our quality of life not their, in numbers to support their demand. Heck I am use to seeing the chickens run loose on the farm. My uncle hogs ran wild on the mountain side. The goat was chained though he could get a little nasty when he wanted to get into things you didn't want him to. The cows had plenty of pasture to graze on.

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#36
In reply to #25

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/09/2008 9:05 AM

in reply to post # 20 re advertising and seduction of the thinking process to advance sales; if you can get a copy of the book seduction of the innocents, you will find it centers on the evil comic book publishers destroying American hildren's morals but carry its' message beyond the words and ask yourself is this what sales and marketin does then get vance packards' books on marketing you should come to the conclusion the sizzle nor the steak are being sold it is the marketers selling the idea of both.

second item re the holstein barn, i ask you to consider what kind of a mental picture would ms. kate put together if she were to see a picture of a milking parlor filled with either simmentals or highland longhorns at the stanchion?

'da ber

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/09/2008 11:51 AM

Add to that the Art of Seduction by Greene. It has some very informative sections on Political and Marketing seductions. My issues with Marketing is the lack of responsibility to the consumer. Not that the consumer shouldn't be discerning but like tobacco it's the 200 chemical processes that make it a killer. Not that inhaling cooling phosphors into your lungs is smart.

Personally I thing feedlot beef tastes like cardboard and as a friend from New Zealand put it is only suitable for pet food.

To much of anything is bad. Balance is a key factor.

Holsteins taste fine. Taste is in the feed not the cow, but tenderness is age and environment dependant. A little more to it than that but that's the basics. A beef cow is 3 to 5% more meat per cow.

Brad

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#40
In reply to #38

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/11/2008 11:45 PM

I have become a Milo fan for his cogent, calm replies to hysterical elitist enviro"mentals" and capitalism haters (read blame America first crowd) .

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#41
In reply to #40

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/12/2008 10:29 PM

I enjoy Milo's post also, as for capitalism haters they are shallow.

The foreign world banks run the US and are currently getting what they can with out shooting themselves in the foot. Others blame the US but much has to do with polices that are counter productive to the US.

Unless $40,000. plus of debt per US citizen for a Lier's war that made this country broke and back in debt to the world banks after the bankruptcy ended in the 90's is a productive move.

Enviro"mentalist" have the same failing. A lot of emotional rage but not a great deal of long term thinking. Take Dams for instance. Save the salmon remove the Dams. Flood control and irrigation were the reasons Dams were needed. Power production made them feasible. When a hundred year flood takes out a chemical factory and kills the environment for miles then the Dam won't sound so bad. They want their cake and eat it to. I can think of a dozen cities in the North West US that if the Dams are removed will become death traps. Portland for one.

Love the wolf BS, but hope when people start dieing from attacks it is the "mentalist" that go first.

Brad

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#42
In reply to #40

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/12/2008 10:36 PM

I'm curious, is it enviro"mentals" or environ"mentals"? Why drop the n?

Also, do you believe:

1. In Evolution?
2. In Global Warming?
3. That the Earth is approximately 10,000 years old?

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#43

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/13/2008 8:27 AM

"Lier's war" sic

Specifically, U V, what lie are you referring to?

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#44
In reply to #43

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/13/2008 3:57 PM

Oh let see, how about the Chemical Weapons, or Water Boarding is not Torture, Haliburton, Private SOF soldiers, the whole reason for the war.

To depressing to dig to deep.

Brad

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#47
In reply to #44

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 10:43 AM

I repeat, U V, specifically what lie? Don't give me your conclusions - what lie?

Are you trying to give us the ridiculous idea that because there were no WMD that Bush was lying/ - Do you think we are all stupid?

And second, why are you answering off topic when you put your propaganda in the pertinent answers?

I want everyone to see you squirm. You cannot defend the "lie" comment . . .

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#48
In reply to #47

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 10:56 AM

Corneliusvansant,

Why wont you answer my questions?

Do you beleive in Evolution, Global Warming, and that the Earth is 4 billion+ years old?

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#50
In reply to #48

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 9:48 PM

Mr Pink,

I will answer these seemingly irellevant questions if you can tell me why my personal beliefs are pertinent to the discussion . . . CVS

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 10:49 PM

Hi Corneliusvansant,

Your opening statement in this thread was:

"I have become a Milo fan for his cogent, calm replies to hysterical elitist enviro"mentals" and capitalism haters (read blame America first crowd) ."

And now you ask:

"why my personal beliefs are pertinent to the discussion"

Clearly you felt you didn't need to withhold your personal beliefs regarding "hysterical elitist enviro"mentals" and capitalism haters (read blame America first crowd)". So why are you reluctant to answer three simple questions? I'm not asking your race, gender, IQ, or religion, I'm simply asking you your opinion regarding three scientific theories. I would think scientific theories are more relevant to an engineering blog than "blame America first crowd".

I would never ask you something I wouldn't willingly answer myself, so here are my responses.

1. Do you believe in Evolution? Yes
2. Do you believe in Global Warming? Yes
3. Do you believe the Earth is over 4 billion years old? Yes

So how about you Corneliusvansant? How do you answer these questions?

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#49
In reply to #47

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 9:17 PM

Sorry I don't squirm for you. You don't push my buttons. If I get time I may dig up the relevant data. But you get more flys with sugar and your just argumentative.

Try to have a nice day

Brad

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#51

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 10:17 PM

U V

You are just beginning to squirm . . . . I submit that there is no lie.

What you have committed is the real lie. If you have no evidence, have not done the research, why would you pass on such nasty personal attack?

Before one calls another a liar I would think you would have the evidence committed to memory.

This is just one example. And it reveals to all of us just how liberals (or the ignorant who believe them without research) sneak their propaganda into technical discussions.

This propaganda is scurrilous, and it is designed to destroy the credibility of the Commander in Chief for political agenda. If it is simply ignorance . . . fine. But even if there was evidence (there is not) does it belong in an engineering discussion???

If one does not have the 'time" to do the research, then please cease passing on enemy propaganda during time of war.

I submit also that if Bush was really a liar we would have "discovered" WMD a long time ago.

This left-wing propaganda is common in this engineering post and I will no longer stand for it.

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#53
In reply to #51

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 11:05 PM

Corneliusvansant,

You posted earlier to me "I will answer these seemingly irellevant[sic] questions if you can tell me why my personal beliefs are pertinent to the discussion . . . CVS"

Now in this post you wrote "This is just one example. And it reveals to all of us just how liberals (or the ignorant who believe them without research) sneak their propaganda into technical discussions."

and

You wrote "This left-wing propaganda is common in this engineering post and I will no longer stand for it."


Don't you think your being a little melodramatic? I mean are the histrionics really necessary? I agree with you that Bush didn't lie, technically, but can't you say so in a less hysterical manner? Do you have to scream to make your point?

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#55
In reply to #51

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 11:31 PM

Boring you can do better than that. I'm not a liberal, and I don't care for what you will stand for And I submit 400 (was it tons?) of HMX high explosives were WMD which our Army for some unknown reason opened the doors of the bunkers and walked away from and it just got up and walked away. The military is not that stupid. If you don't like my opinion and have not the manners to ask why and what I base my opinion on. Why should I squirm?

As for time, time is life not money. You and I can make more money but not more time.

Do I base my Statement on facts? yes. If you want propaganda read the news paper. If you wish to believe I'm ignorant, go ahead. I don't care to stop you.

I support your freedom of thought. Seems to me some country was based on that. Go ahead bully me into giving you what you want. Oh ya I've studied propaganda and find the left and right full of it.

Bush is not the problem, the trends have been going on for a long time.

Knowledge is power why should I try to empower you?

scoff, curse, what ever,

Brad

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#57
In reply to #51

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 11:59 PM

I submit that the government is not acting in our best interests & that the Commander in Chief is responsible. During the 2000 election the President proclaimed his intention to act in a responsible managerial fashion. Unfortunately Mr. Bush's business skills were lacking in the past & I see no particular improvement, after his move from the private to public service.

The decision to split our forces & weaken our pursuit of the bombers of the world trade centers, seems to indicate an inability to properly execute his [the Presidents] duties.

If you were to oversee a project manager who acted in such a irresponsible manner with the vast resources in his care, you would not hesitate to discharge & probably refer such an employee to the judicial authorities for prosecution.

This propaganda is scurrilous, and it is designed to destroy the credibility of the Commander in Chief for political agenda. If it is simply ignorance . . . fine. But even if there was evidence (there is not) does it belong in an engineering discussion???

The scurrilous propaganda seems to emanate from allegedly conservative politicians [& conservative voters who blindly reelect these people] who have wreaked havoc upon the economy & the good name of the USA.

The failure to pursue a progressive energy policy by the mostly republican administrations since 76" have left us in a hole we will spend decades digging ourselves out of.

Bad management is most certainly an appropriate topic for engineers.

Your views on Evolution, Global Warming, and that the Earth is 4 billion+ years old, are certainly pertinent to a technical discussion. Your acceptance or denial of science, will help determine the credibility of your opinion.

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#54

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 11:09 PM

Mr Pink,

I still don't see how these questions are pertinent? Dig deep . . . try to think why these questions are applicable here. Are you stumped?

The nasty tone of your letter looks like you are spoiling for a fight.

Let me begin with this – At least Milo's entries are cogent; yours are convoluted and replete with "scatter" think. If you are going to compete in the scientific realm I recommend you use spell check. Going back over your entries is made even more difficult with voluminous misspelled words. I know that ad homonym is a big word for your vocabulary but at least try to spell it right.

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#60
In reply to #54

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 1:51 AM

Corneliusvansant,

You wrote "If you are going to compete in the scientific realm I recommend you use spell check. Going back over your entries is made even more difficult with voluminous misspelled words. I know that ad homonym is a big word (actually it's two words-RHP) for your vocabulary but at least try to spell it right."

Um, Corneliusvansant, its ad hominem, not ad homonym, here's some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ad%20hominem

You see, the spell check here makes mistakes, which is why you spelled it incorrectly.

Best of luck Corneliusvansant (I think you're going to need it),

Mr. Pink

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#56

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/14/2008 11:54 PM

So, Mr. U V, you admit Bush did not lie. And additionally, you admit that you are not ignorant of the facts.

Then it must be true that you, cognizant of the facts, lied to slander him. That is my point. That is scurrilous.

Certainly "ignorant" was not meant as a general ad homonym but a specific one. We are all ignorant of many things. The more I learn the more ignorant I realize I am and everyone else is.

What I am concerned with are assumptions being presented here as facts. In your case you admit that it is not an assumption at all but a deliberate slander.

If Bush was not a public servant, you could be sued for libel.

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#58
In reply to #56

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 12:13 AM

Wrest my words if it pleases you, He slandered himself. You are still boring.

Brad

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#61
In reply to #58

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 1:55 AM

Hey Brad,

Check out post #60 for a good laugh.

Roger

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#63
In reply to #61

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 10:50 AM

Interesting, At risk of the same, I hadn't the time to look that up. Love to learn

Thanks

Brad

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#59

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 12:41 AM

"slandered himself" "boring" "Follow the money" . . . Babble and movie dialogue without meaning or substance.

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#62

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 9:31 AM

Is that what we are Mr. Garth – believers? I don't think so.

This is not church where we accept things on faith. That is one of our biggest problems. Marx would have a name for "believers" like you suggest. He called them "useful idiots." People who, in faith, accept the latest trend or group think.

Mr. Gore wants us to "believe" that "global warming" is something new, something man made. What audacity! The internal combustion engine or hair spray did not even exist before the last warming from solar activity. What caused it then?

But, alas, the evidence now shows CO2 follows temperature rise - or will you refuse to believe arctic borings because this is outside your scientific doxology . . . outside what you believe? CO2 following temperature rise is the causality, the smoking gun that proves that the CO2 man made global theory is a hoax.

Any other theories you want us to "believe in Mr. Garth. Or would you have us believe that the shouting is over – just believe.

You go through mental gymnastics, Mr. Garth, to turn this intercourse into a blame Bush for all things bad. But your rant on Bush does not include that we are in historic times – historic low unemployment, historic low interest rates and the economy expanded a record 61 straight months. And all that with tax cuts!

Your "belief" is that President Bush is a "bad manager" who has "left us in a hole." What hole are you referring to – the fact that we do not exploit our natural resources in Anwar, or off shore, or not allow refineries to be built (all things Bush has pushed for) because of the bullying of enviro "mentals? But do you recall that it was the "greens that stopped nuclear energy too, Mr. Garth. Is that the hole to which you are referring?

Or, are you referring to rising inflation because farmers, "believing" and capitalizing on (follow the money) Al Gore, and rather than drill, replace planting wheat and animal feed grain with corn for ethanol. The result is higher beef, pork, and animal husbandry with limited results in getting us out of the hole.

No, you can take your beliefs and shove 'em. I want evidence – just like I want evidence from the liars and slanderers who say Bush lied.

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#64
In reply to #62

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/15/2008 11:56 AM

Corneliusvansant,

You took all that time to ridicule me for spelling ad hominem wrong, when in fact I spelled it correctly and you have nothing to say?

Don't you have the decency to apologize?

Also,

You wrote: "Mr. Gore wants us to "believe" that "global warming" is something new, something man made. What audacity! The internal combustion engine or hair spray did not even exist before the last warming from solar activity. What caused it then?"

Great question. In the past, warming and cooling occurred as a result of precession of: the Earth's Axis, Eccentricity of Orbit, and Aphelion of Orbit. When combined with the orientation of most of Earth's land mass in a particular hemisphere (Northern), these precessions produced a predictable climate cycle. A cycle we have severely deviated from the last 100 years due to a huge increase in greenhouse gases.

Now you may say, but Roger, the Earth is huge, how could we make such a difference?

Well, we are not actually talking about the whole Earth, just the region of it we populate, right at the surface to a few miles up into the atmosphere. This is a much smaller region that can easily be affected by our activities. The reason why greenhouse gases settle in this region is because they are heavy. CO2 is heavier than O2, N2, He, etc. so naturally its found in the lower atmosphere near the surface of the Earth where it can trap heat effectively.

Hope that answers your question,

Feel free to apologize for the whole ad hominem thing anytime now,

Mr. Pink

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#68
In reply to #64

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/16/2008 6:43 AM

Sorry I have been traveling.

Yes, I have been humbled; I was wrong – you were right.

You were particularly gracious in your noting the essence or my error lie in trusting spell check.

I apologize, not only for the ad hominem thing, but for that entire last nasty sentence. It was unnecessary. I have no excuse, Microsoft has failed me and I am devastated.

Thank you - neil

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#67
In reply to #62

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/16/2008 3:22 AM

Actually I never called Bush a liar. I merely expressed my view of the President's skills as an administrator.

You seem to equate an expanding economy with a improvement in the overall well being of the country. What good are low interest rates without fiscal responsibility? My taxes may have been cut on the federal level, which have caused record deficits & increased taxes on the state & local level. Since most of us aren't in the top brackets [tax] the net effect has been negative [feel free to throw out those tired old chestnuts about trickle down]

the tax code & fiscal policy should favor saving not borrowing,

manufacturing, not out sourcing,

building equity, not liquidating assets.

The historic low unemployment is great if you consider the low wage service work employment.

I believe evolution & creation are not mutually exclusive concepts & further that the earth is millions or billions of years old.

I believe Climate change is not a hoax, you can debate the causes, but there will be effects. Increasing energy efficiency & reducing pollution are worthy goals, which will improve everyones quality of life. The oil reserves in ANWR are not big enough to support our rate of consumption.

I believe in POS [Positive incremental change]

It appears that you believe that dissent is treason & that loyalty is more important than competence.

The conservative movement is a failure, ideals have been overtaken by greed, The progressives probably won't do any better.

You should really work on your manners, there's no need to be rude.

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#69

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/16/2008 6:55 AM

Garth wrote:

"The decision to split our forces & weaken our pursuit of the bombers of the world trade centers, seems to indicate an inability to properly execute his [the Presidents] duties."

This is an opinion. I have no problem with an opinion, though I disagree with it.

I do have a problem with calling Bush a liar when there is no evidence.

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#70

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/17/2008 9:29 AM

U V,

I also would ask you to accept my apology for the, uncalled for, mean spirited, replies. I get angry when people slime the president with untruths.

But you are, by far, not the only one who calls this president a liar. It is my opinion that you and many others have been mislead by the political opposition; they have no regard for honesty when it comes to politics. And they insert these lies in these engineering pages often, regardless of its relevance.

Parsing Iraq from the war, in my opinion, is ridiculous and dangerous. Iraq is merely a battle - and one that has moved the front from our homeland. The opposition has forgotten 9/11.

They also, foolishly, think the war ended in Afghanistan and the solution is to catch "the bombers." But that will not end the violence and atrocity; the problem originates in the entire region and from the Islamic revolution that began with the Ayatollah Khomeini.

And, if any of these stateless groups get nukes we are in big trouble, not just from one explosion, but from being coerced like Japan because all nations will deny complicity, and we will not know where the "shooter" is – no way to reply. Mutually Assured Destruction is defunct.

Remember, suicide delivery needs no missile, only small watercraft – very small. And they don't need to import it. Many are in denial. The explosion is so huge, every beach is vulnerable. The only answer to it is this – we fear no democracy – with or without nuclear weapons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUiXiHS5hr0#

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#71
In reply to #70

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/17/2008 10:43 AM

Accepted and I should not have gloated you on. I have been real busy and when you get paid $100.per hour for legal research you give performance.

When I can I will dig up where ever I buried the docs etcetera in my system

Thank you

Brad

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#72
In reply to #70

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/17/2008 10:51 AM

Fair winds and following seas,

'began with Ayatollah Khomeini' ??

Research reveals the same actions and rhetoric from the Muslim leadership towards America 1776-1805. Curious the Muslim leadership at that time professing the exact rhetoric of the 'supposed' radical Muslims of today.

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#73
In reply to #72

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/17/2008 11:02 AM

And much of that can be followed back to the rebound from the crusades.

It amazes me how people can swing the pendulum of extremes and not see that the middle path is enlightenment.

Now if I can just keep to the path

Brad

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#74
In reply to #72

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/17/2008 12:04 PM

I would suggest that the issue is not Muslim vs America as much as it is Islam vs Modernity. Lord knows it took the western civilization a few hundred years to "for the most part" square away to the lessons of science vs the Unchallengable truths (proven wrong) from the Church hierarchy's monopoly on interpretation of the Bronze Age Sky G-d dictums. (I said for the most part because there is clearly a large number of folks even today for whom creationism makes more sense than a thinking creator that could employ a process such as evolution to achieve its ends.) We burned more than a few at the stake, and drowned hundreds as 'witches' for failing to conform to Church Taught Orthodoxy.

America is Proxy for Modern thought as we best exemplify its progress and refutation of bronze age tribalism. Thus, we be the target. It's an honor, but no privelege.

But right thinking, rather than fossilized orthodoxy must prevail. Hence the Battle.

milo

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#75
In reply to #70

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/17/2008 12:57 PM

You are mistaken in thinking that continuing to escalate the violence in the middle east will do anything positive. Past administrations supported the Shah of Iran, instead of supporting democracy. The result was the .Ayatollah Khomeini. In Afghanistan we backed the Taliban just because they opposed the Russians. In Iraq we supported Saddam, because he was happy to fight the Iranians. Our troops in Saudi Arabia & continuing subsidies to Israel...... were major contributors to series of terrorist attacks dating back to the Beirut [Marine barracks].

UV has it right the problem started during the crusades.

We [USA] have no business supporting oppressive regimes, we need to take the high road & only support governments that hold open/honest elections, have reasonably high standards of human rights. We should talk to our enemies & expect more from our allies, especially when we provide substantial sums of money.

You are correct on the Nuke issue. We need to do the best job possible to secure our ports & borders.

Before you accuse me of blaming the US for all that's wrong with the world......

I think we could have made some better choices over the years, but it's never too late to learn from our mistakes & do a better job so the USofA can continue to be the best country in the world!

P.S. the war in Afghanistan will never end.

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#76

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/18/2008 7:48 AM

Bwire writes: "Research reveals the same actions and rhetoric from the Muslim leadership towards America 1776-1805. Curious the Muslim leadership at that time professing the exact rhetoric of the 'supposed' radical Muslims of today."

Yes, thank you for the reply.

It goes much farther back then that, if you study the history of Islam. And it is, unfortunately, the essence of the problem. We all know the history of religious fundamentalism and war. And Islam has a long history of violent bigotry and virulent intolerance. Every few centuries there is born a new caliphate, or Islamic reformation, launching the Muslims into a murderous frenzy, slaughtering infidels.

This latest round began in 1979 with the storming of the American embassy in Tehran and the fall of the Shah of Iran during the Carter era. Iran was transformed into a theocratic dictatorship led by the maniacal Ayatollah Khomeini an imam (Islamic priest). Please google it.

Today the imam dictator Ayatollah Khameni has thousands of centrifuges spinning making fuel for nuclear weapons. What A. k. Khan called the "Islamic bomb." The strategy is to use proxy warfare and asymmetrical cellular combatants so there is doubt where the violence originates – blinding us and canceling or slowing to ineffectiveness our ability to retaliate.

If an explosion went off and bin Laden's face came up on Al Jezeera demanding surrender, where would we retaliate - Pakistan, Afghanistan? – these countries are now helping us.

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#77

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/18/2008 8:05 AM

Garth writes: "You are mistaken in thinking that continuing to escalate the violence in the middle east will do anything positive."

No Garth, I do not suggest escalating violence. The "surge" is doing the opposite. Violence is way down.

What I do suggest is that isolationism in the atomic age is insane. The only solution is what you say – free elections and democracy where the people have control over their leaders, where mothers teach tolerance not violence, to build careers rather than bombs, and where men do not make it to leadership by the gun. Give women the vote and there will be peace.

That is the Bush strategy and it is the right one. Millions are free now in Afghanistan and Iraq and we have nothing to fear from their leadership.

If we leave too soon, before the job is done no matter how long it takes, we are doomed to wait and watch for suicidal maniacs in small lead lined watercraft – do you think we can guard the entire coast without error when several presidents have not been able to secure the southern border?

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#78

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/18/2008 2:51 PM

This string has interesting twists that seem to digress into divergent rationale. But as Garth points out, it is about project management. In that regard, American government is a "project" in engineer terms. And so, the "hamburger" question, (my compliments to Kate for the provocative title), which is ultimately about CO2, has been made relevant to politics. And thus some may feel blaming the US first for all the troubles we face, and issuing a nasty (ad hominem) Bush bashing is prudent.

I say this with respect, since my anger has been cooled by the humility of making a fool of myself once already. Nevertheless, one will only find my beliefs in the ethereal and I make them with the same frailty as any one of us – I may be wrong! Faith (belief) is indefensible in dialectical materialism. And so I am ready to be convinced otherwise and – I hope (with some cynicism) you are as well. Will the informed depend on personal attacks? That is the question.

With that in mind let us begin a thorough examination over whether America is to blame for Islamic atrocity and the man we elected president is an idiot –or worse.

I pose here that intolerance for other's beliefs, be it God, global warming, evolution or religion, is the greatest reason for strife within our country, indeed the world. It is the reason for the war we find ourselves fighting. Would I ask you if you believe we are at war?

No, it is obvious you do not, or you would see the battlefront clearly. You may think the front is in Afghanistan because you assume the enemy is there – you see crime, not acts of war. And further, you parse Iraq from the region even though our enemy claims it is the front. It is denial in its purist terms.

When we elect a Democrat for president, democracy has spoken. When we elect a Republican, then that is, also, the will of the majority. We fear no democracy; that is a fact. With nuclear proliferation unavoidable how can we protect ourselves? It seems clear.

With this in mind, I implore my fellow citizens to have respect for democracy and tolerance of other ideas, especially in war. For you may be wrong. Of course we always have voice to dissent in democracy; many have died for the privilege to call a president any name we want. But let us contemplate with sincerity if is it prudent; is it truth or hyperbole; is it fair or hypocritical? When you slime a man often enough, those ignorant (just do not know) the truth will (unfortunately) repeat the slander.

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#79

Re: Are Hamburgers Ruining The Environment?

02/18/2008 3:26 PM

Milo #74 writes: "I would suggest that the issue is not Muslim vs America as much as it is Islam vs Modernity."

I request that you make your posts on the open board. This line of thought has been made relevant by Garth, as on topic – because it is about "project management."

You are right, in my view, Milo – and that is the real essence of the problem – it is why we were labeled by Imam Khomeini – "The Great Satan."

The Information Age has brought modern liberal thought – which includes liberal morality –into the living rooms of conservative religious Islamic families. Satellites, TV and computers have put our x-rated material and "freedoms" right in their face and the face of their children.

To a conservative Muslim, we are obsessed with sex, we give women power forbidden by the Koran, and openly defy Allah and his prophet Mohammed. Can we blame them for their anger? They are ready to slit our throat.

Democracy, Milo – We fear no democracy, with or without nuclear weapons. Islam must accept modernity be tolerant and, just like the rest of us who do not like the smut, turn the channel. It is not allowed to cut off heads because one disagrees.

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