To Certify or Not?

Its as valuble as the company that requires them.

You see more and more company's wanting certifications, just due to some engineers that barely made it though college (though they did get a degree) and the wannabe engineers who happened to be in the right place and the right time, (and knows the right people)

Certification helps, but its still up to the individual to make it work.

I've held all kinds of certifications and let most of them expire, not that the knowledge used expired with the certification. Nothing but expensive bragging rights. I've also known some people who were certified up the wazoo and wouldn't be able to pass the certification test the week after they took it. I've also seen certifications that were not worth moon paper.

Depending on what the job requires, certification may be useful. I do know that the educrats both online and at brick and mortar facilities do not view certifications as proof of knowledge. But other agencies insist that people doing or reviewing various processes be certified.

In my own career, I've found that some of the certifications I tested for were exercises in self aggrandizement and justification for existence for the certifying agency. Others, where you had to document a certain level of experience and familiarity just to be allowed to take the test, were true indicators of ability.

Becoming certified in anything should be a requirement of a position, and not an exercise to increase one's collection of wall art.

I believe we walked similar paths.

Some of the certifications I believe would help me with what I was working on at the time.......atleast I thought they would.

But do not mistake certifications with safety issues. An example, when I had a fabrication and design company we did allot of field installations and repair. I had all (we were a small company) the shop and field employees take courses to work in confined spaces, I hired the local technical college to come to my facility to teach this training.

This was a requirement that I thought was important, as it turned out it was also a good business decision, when my customers knew I had people that were certified, and procedures in place, it matched the customers requirements also.

As my post earlier, its only as valuble as the company that requires it.

This was important. The other certs, that I myself had, the only value I saw was maybe picking up a contact.

phoenix911

I was 'certified', but am out of hospital now. ;=)

To broaden career Opportunites= increase competence

Certifications = Style

Experiential Knowledge = Substance.

Only when a certification is correlated with Experiential knowledge is it worthy of respect.

But knowledge is only part of the competence equation. Critical thinking is another.

I have yet to see the certification for that...

Competence = Experiential Knowledge + Critical Thinking + Ability To Do.

Mere knowledge is never enough, and credentials are even less useful.

I have a couple of binders holding my 'certificates and credentials and college degrees.' They help during an interview. But in reality they are essentially redundant, as an astute interviewer would figure out my ability after an answer or two...

milo

excellent analogy

However the vast majority of interviewers are not astute and could not figure out your ability to save their lives.

The lazy way out of that problem is to rely on certifications.

I have a few myself, and I am proud of them. I worked hard to achieve them and only a small part of the engineering population has bothered to atempt being certified at anything. If the companies I have worked for brought me on because of my credentials, so be it, they made a good investment because I also have proven my competency.

There are too many Institutions, guilds, approved bodies, self appointed authorities, charging regular subscriptions for worthless paper.
For £35 a year I could become a member of the 'guild of Bowyers and Arrowsmiths' but why on earth would I pay for the privelige of someone else telling me what I already know...EG that I am a decent bowyer?
It's all a way of getting money for nothin' much of it going to government quangos.
Paperwork never proved anything...what is writen on paper doesn't necessarilly effect reality.
Del

PS. I can see that in some safety critical industries is is a good thing, if sensibly administered

I like many of you went through the getting certified to do everything I could phase. Wasted time and money is all it amounted to. Not one certification I had is likely still in effect since apparently getting certified wasn't enough. You have to continue to pay for renewals and loads of other crap that has nothing to to do with your skill or abilities after wards.

If you want to know if I am certified to drive a pay loader, bull dozer or excavator just put me in the driver seat and I will show you everything I know and likely even tell you what issues I have with your machine! (and then hand you my business card and ask you if you want the glitches fixed and the cracks welded correctly too!)

I have seen certified welders weld for half a day with out their shielding gas turned on while doing production work and when it was pointed out to them all they said was if quality control lets it through it good enough.

Now a days the only certified piece of paper I care to deal with is the one I take to the bank. And even that seems to be worth even less every year.

Hello tcmtech,

I like you post.

GA to you Sir

I am an engineer, I am proud of my degree and my certs and my PE license, my background and training has everything to do with my skill and abilities. And while I agree there are plenty of sharp folks that do not have the degree who accomplish a lot, when it comes down to assuring that the bulldozer is safe to operate, I want someone who can do the calcs and has the certs to back it up. I have seen too many disasters as a result of some cowboy trying to fix something that was over their head (especially in the oil field). Disasters that could easily have been avoided with a simple calc.

I think the idea that certifications are worthless is balderdash.

Some are better than others, but when I needed nuclear power plant recirc piping welded we put the applicants through a certification process and most failed. I would much prefer hiring a welder who cared enough about his craft that he was willing to prove his ability by passing a certification test.

Hi Steve, good post as always, interesting thought when you say...

when I needed nuclear power plant recirc piping welded we put the applicants through a certification process and most failed

This shows that you didn't rely on certificates or certification...but the actual 'process' which presumably meant actually testing their work? So you tested 'em regardless of wether they were previously certified or not?
You see where I'm going here?

Anyhow, I don't want to seem argumentative, we are in different fields, I'm damn sure if I were in your business I'd want to see certification too, but I'd also want to see 'em actually do the job.

This raises a good question, how many people have been recruited with bogus degrees or certificates?
I've never gone that far, but I've sort of lied by ommission.
Like leaving the word 'test' out of my job title and letting people assume the word was 'design', e.g. Senior Development Test Engineer (but I had my fingers crossed so it's ok) That's the worst I've done.

Do you actually check up on certification or just believe the CV?
There must be plenty of people who add a degree to their CV or massage it up to a grade or 2...
Del

The general certification process tested their general knowledge, but yes we set them up with sections of pipe and tested their ability to do a quality weld. Then certified that ability.

A good certification process has both a practical aspect as well as a test of general knowledge. Even if the practical aspect is only proof of a certain number of years experience, along with references for your work.

I agree that certs are a necessary evil, but I think you miss the point. There are those out there who both advocate and do themselves the act of getting certified in everything they can.

I know I'm not alone when I say that I have seen certified individuals who were incompetents at their "certified" craft. And as you have said, there are plenty of competent, well accomplished individuals who hold certs in nothing.

The balance is in between where you are collecting paper for the sake of it and being a savant with no documentation to bear witness of it. Test-for-Purpose may be the answer.

I did not miss the point, I just think the point is irrelevant. There are incompetent doctors with licenses to practice, there are incompetent lawyers who have passed the bar.

My point is that this thread makes it sound like that is the rule and not the exception.

I would suggest that in any pool of technically certified individuals the vast majority, more than 95% are highly competent.

I would further suggest that the vast majority of incompetent people never bother with certification because they know they can't pass.

If this were not the case, the value of these programs would have been proven long ago to be nil, and no one would bother with it. The typical pass rate for the PE license exam in the US is less than 50%. I am a certified Vibration analyst, and the highest level, the Category 4 test, the pass rate was 20%. At least in these two areas my experience has been that the vast majority of certified individuals are highly competent.

Question what do you call the last ranked/ last place graduate in the class at medical school?

Answer Doctor

Steve, We can agree that there are certifications that are worthy because they do correlate to demonstrable knowlwdge and skills, as your experience attests.

However, There are also Bogus certificates that mislead by implying a competence or capability where none exists. When i was in china, I saw graffiti in the industrial parks, along with phone numbers.

I asked our translator what the graffiti said, and he told me it is for "certificates. If you need a diploma to get a job, or a iso certificate to get an order these phone numbers tell you where to get them." He said a Harvard diploma was especially valuable over there..." I have posted one of the photos above, note the stenciled posts that have been painted over...

I keep getting nominated for a bunch of WHO's WHO Books, Strathmores whose who, Presidential whos;'s who, etc etc,.

Who cares? WHat does it really mean?

Great discussion.

milo

I want someone who can do the calcs and has the certs to back it up. I have seen too many disasters as a result of some cowboy trying to fix something that was over their head (especially in the oil field).

Its not only in the oilfields.

Not only being certified but being a degreed is not the end, its the beginning....because being certified is only as useful as the people who uses and apply's it consistently. Even if its bad news.

I did a blog with this comes to mind.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/34629

Disasters that could easily have been avoided with a simple calc.

I see that its the most simplest mistakes that trip up the biggest.

this example is severe.

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/space/9909/30/mars.metric/

phoenix911

tcmtech:

I have seen certified welders weld for half a day with out their shielding gas turned on while doing production work

These are no welders and should not be welding, anyone that has a skill like welding knows when the shielding gas is not on........and for a half a day???

phoenix911