220 VAC Electric Baseboard Heater Without A Ground

Good catch.

As I said, its whatever you want!! Try connecting blocks for example....I would have modified it if I had noticed that before....

I personally do not see them as fuses and although neutral fusing does take place in certain "backward" countries, its not anything that I would wish to see where I live.....because in most counties, neutral and ground are usually linked at some point!! e.g. a safety concern.

I simply took the diagram off the internet (little choice) to demonstrate how the US managed domestic supplies, in comparison to most other countries.

The US system when used properly and kept up to date is fine (my personal opinion not fact), especially if RCDs are used in each and every install (sadly far from true!).

But if used incorrectly or latest E.code simply ignored (the laws appear to need to be changed for older properties), appears to become possibly quite dangerous to users.

This blog being a perfect example of that!!

Many are simply blind to the bad possibilities of an out of date system, or incorrect connection, or even simply ignoring previous local E.Codes that still might have prevented certain accidents.....some people appear to need to lose a loved one, to make them change.....I am at a loss to understand their attitude in such matters....

Whatever you want them to be!

The only limit is your imagination!!

"Question is about safety"!

I can think of an option to make your un-grounded installation safer..

By adding an Isolation transformer in-between the circuit breaker supplying the 220 volts and the (heater + thermostat) heating system..

A 1 KVA, (220 volts) 1:1 isolation transformer with grounded case can be placed next to the water heater. Connecting the ground wire to the transformer instead of the heater!

It's not a water heater.

I dunno. Maybe the roof leaks.

Sure sounds like a very expensive alternative to replacing a short section of 12 AWG Romex...

By the way... even when the transformer is not supplying any current to the heater, a 1 KVA isolation transformer will pull a good bit of energy just keeping the core magnetized, so there would be a on-going monthly charge for this approach as well.

Not if the thermostat switched the transformer on an off!

True... but...

The intensity of the magnetizing current inrush (the transformer winding being a dead short until the back emf increase the impedance of the winding) would destroy the thermostat in real short order.

Probably, but there are devices to place across the contacts to handle that inrush, also, there are solid state relays that can handle that really well too.....

IF key issue is life safety due to electrical shock hazards, etc......

The 1 KVA isolation transformer suggested was really an overkill, and may be a bit expensive, in my opinion without a doubt it will make the OP project safe for everyone concerned..

Agreed...

GA. Very true.

Great idea, but a couple problems:

1. Where would the isolation transformer be placed? This is a baseboard heater in the master bedroom.

2. Where would I get the ground for the isolation transformer? If there were a ground nearby, I would've ran it to the heater. There isn't a ground close by.

The needed isolation transformer can be installed /wall mounted right next to the breaker box with its case grounded if or as needed.. With CB power Off, remove and transfer existing connections to the transformer. Run two new short wires from the breaker to power the isolation transformer...

Existing wiring for the baseboard heater can remain as-is, yet making it electrically safe..

GA

_{It is similar in the UK, with Part P of the Building Regulations being applicable, and guidance on best practice given by the aforementioned BS7671. Documentation indicating compliance with the above is a formidable shield in law and will maintain popularity with the building's fire insurer.}

As there are no obvious grounds nearby, possibly a double pole GFI circuit breaker would be in order. This won't prevent the case from going live, but if a short to ground occurred, either through personal, pet or some other type of path to ground, the breaker would trip before death or fire could occur.

I'm working on a 120 V heating system for a greenhouse. The problem I encountered is the thermostat was not rated for 120 V for heat. It IS rated for 120 V to control a cooling fan. The current rating isn't adequate to operate the heater (about 10 amps). I'm re-wiring it to include a 24 V transformer and a contactor.

I looked at the Cadet baseboard heater's website and see that they offer thermostats. My question is if that thermostat can handle the required amperage, or if it requires a contactor, too.

They probably have some models that will handle the current and voltage. Look at their website.

I didn't use the Cadet thermostat, but looking at the specs, I'd say there is no problem using it without a contactor.

Dibs on the first 'shiney'

Thank you. This is very pertinent information and helps me understand the vast differences in opinions here.

I should've included in my post that the condo is in the Western US.

GA to you!

Since you get 110v on one side when the thermostat breaks and 220v when it makes, it sounds like your heater is "single phasing" 220 with 2 phases and your hot leg upon breaking is using the ground wire as your neutral.

If so, I believe your hookup is illegal and unsafe without a 4th conductor to act as a dedicated wire for fault currents.

I recommend looking up some you tube videos on the difference between neutral and ground to get a better picture. After looking up this topic, you may understand the importance of bonding.

I have negated the OT someone gave you, as you are correct with regard to safety.

One could say, the single most important part of this whole blog!!!

You wrote:-

If so, I believe your hookup is illegal and unsafe without a 4th conductor to act as a dedicated wire for fault currents.

Might have been clearer if you had written:-

If so, I believe your hookup is illegal and unsafe without a 4th conductor to act as a dedicated wire for earth fault currents.

Though you were correct enough for me personally I would like to add....but not for some others here apparently.

Have a great day.

Thanks for sharing the feedback! I do appreciate the details.

GA

But:-

"Understatement of the Year 2017?"

My only other concern is that the single leg thermostat leaves one leg hot at 110V in the unit even with the thermostat switched off, which is less than ideal.

That is one of the major drawbacks of the US 110VAC system, when using it for a 220VAC device.......not disconnecting both legs in the event of a malfunction, or even a thermostat switching, because the dummies only buy one that is single pole!!

I really don't know just how often I have mentioned RCDs that remove BOTH legs at the same time, on this blog!! First time Post #53 I believe. I cannot be bothered to count back,but many, many times.....

Its also appalling just how many here offered (poor quality) advice, most not even once mentioning RCDs/GFCIs and the like!!!

Not forgetting the OP who not only does not (want to) understand how an RCD/GFCI functions.....but argues about it needing a ground connection!!!! Which he believes that he does not have at all in Condo!

Let alone the room with the heater installed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

I wonder if he will ever come back and let us know if it shocks or even kills someone, (maybe because it will be himself?) assuming no extra safety devices or ground as he wants to(has) install(ed) it?

From that link I posted:-

A residual-current device (RCD), or residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB), is a device that instantly breaks an electric circuit to prevent serious harm from an ongoing electric shock. Injury may still occur in some cases, for example if a human falls after receiving a shock. In the United States and Canada, the device is more commonly known as a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI), ground fault interrupter (GFI) or an appliance leakage current interrupter (ALCI).

I just looked at a 110vac installation on a single line thermostat that used the old style mercury bulb switch on a bimetal spiral coil and no GFCI. Lots and lots of these around and most people don't want to get involved in disposing of the mercury.

It must be said, though, that it takes more effort and determination to kill yourself with 110 than it does with 220, or at least a more highly refined level of stupidity.

There are arguments for and against each voltage, but I find this link to be as good as any, it maintains that "complacency" kills.....at 110VAC!!

Which-one-has-more-fatality-110-volts-or-220

You have forgotten that, although voltage may burn, it's current that kills!!! Also, it's a relatively tiny amount of current!!

Here:

Electric_shock

You can read this that demonstrates that 110VAC kills more people "per capita" than 220VAC does:

There were 550 reported electrocutions in the US in 1993, 2.1 deaths per million inhabitants.

In Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Norway the number of electric deaths per million inhabitants was 0.6, 0.3, 0.3 and 0.2, respectively, in years 2007-2011.

I was surprised, as I expected 110VAC to be less dangerous (PROVIDED IT WAS INSTALLED CORRECTLY)!!!! But apparently, it's not!!

Sorry that the figures I found were not world-wide complete.

I found this discussion to be very illuminating (pun intended!):

Differences between the UK & USA Electrical systems

Which demonstrates that the UK system, as a whole, is far more orientated to safety than the US systems are.

I found the whole discussion online to be very informative.

Sorry, you cannot make any comparisons about which voltage is more lethal because stupidity plays a big role in the stats. All you can say is "...at 110VAC and above..." A 12VDC car battery can kill you if the circumstances are just right.

The "let go" threshold is about 10mA; 30mA can cause tissue damage, fibrillation, and/or cardiac arrest (depending upon the path through the body, its weight, and condition). 10υA (microshock) can kill if the electrodes are inserted under the skin and the pathway passes through the heart. DC through skin contact requires 300-500mA to cause fibrillation.

Voltage is deliberately left out of the discussion because perspiration, area/point of contact, age, physical/skin condition, etc. all affect the impedance the body presents to the source and, therefore, its reaction to the stimulus.

I was not making wrong comparisons as you imply with your post. Why didn't you mention the safety factor helped by a correctly installed RCD for example......

In fact, you should have answered Post #216 as I was, not simply jumped in the middle...

As you are going off at a tangent with regard to that post that I had answered, a post that maintained (wrongly) that 220VAC kills more often than 110VAC, which is simply wishful thinking!!!

Only theoretically does it kill more, (under identical conditions maybe) but not in practice, as my first link maintained, complacency is the biggest problem with 110VAC, and I also maintain that poor design, poor electrical codes, poor laws not enforcing the newest codes and and and and......are the basic causes....

I know how electricity kills, also I know how to make it safer by installing it correctly.......

Also how it should be installed to give the user the best chance not to get a shock!

I also know that its the current that kills, not the voltage, many here obviously don't, if throwing around comments that accuse a (higher) voltage of killing more people!!!

It appears that you only read part of my post!!! Try reading it and the links it contains fully, it was Post #217!

The Poster of #216 obviously does not have a clue.....as many people don't have a clue, who have not had the necessary training......so you cannot blame him really.....

I also have met (sadly, far too) many electricians who do not have a clue what they are REALLY doing and why. They learned a method, but not why and how......even on this blog there is at least one that stands out in that way!!! He is NOT alone!! Sadly!!!

Even some UK electricians simply cannot understand just how good the code is British Standard BS 7671!

Thought that would get a response.

I'm noticing a lot of "double insulated" appliances with no ground protection and a lot higher level of use of GFCI.

I was also surprised by the latest wave of 53V lithium ion battery powered landscaping tools. You can actually get quite a jolt from them under the right circumstances.

Double insulated appliances/tools have no direct path from the energized parts to any openings or exposed conductive parts of the device, hence no ground pin or polarized plug is required.

Increased use of GFCIs and AFCIs is a result of continuous changes (aka Code Creep) in the NEC and/or local codes, which keep requiring these devices in more and more locations.

I was looking at the published stats and there is a really good correlation between number of installed GFCIs and reduced number of deaths by electrocution.

Have you a link for us all?

GA

To my mind, for this particular blog, that was the perfect post!! which gets a GA of course....

With any luck, a few others here will be of the same opinion!!!.

It was sad that I had to ask for it though!!

But really great that you posted it!!! Many thanks.

Good chart! There are still many homes that don't have gfci's in the bathroom/kitchen. When I bought my properties, most didn't have them in the bathroom or kitchen. In one house, there was one installed in each bathroom, but it was installed wrong.

I think pre-gfci in the US, a large percentage of electrocutions come from dropping electrical devices in kitchen sinks and bathroom tubs/sinks. Common sense tells us that gfci's will reduce the number of electrocutions, but your chart gives us the actual data.

GA to you!

If you've never been in a pre mid 60's era home in the US, how can you comment on where a ground exists? Do you even know? And if so, please tell me where the ground is in the bedroom in question. I'm speaking of the ground that will magically appear when the heater decides to have an electrical fault. And where has this mysterious ground been over the last 50 years in the hundreds (maybe even a thousand) of condos in the complex. Why hasn't the associate upgraded the so called "dangerous" heater. Yes, my home owners association does upgrades to our units - it's built into our association dues. You would think their multi million dollar liability policy would cost them a fortune if things were as dangerous as you claim them to be. Either that, or the insurance company is just plain stupid, which I don't think is the case.

Using practical business sense, one could assume that there are nearly zero (I can't say there are zero, because I don't know) claims of people getting electrocuted by their ungrounded heater systems, which is the liability of the association. If there were a lot of claims, the insurance premium would be very high and our association dues would've gone up considerably, right? Or is the entire system defective?

You tell me.

You posted:-

You tell me.

I have done, several times, So have several other people here, time after time, but apparently you don't understand electrics.

Will telling you again help you to understand? How many more times must you be told?

You tell me!

Wow, you just don't get it, do you?

I'll spell it out in a little clearer way.

1. These heaters have been in about 10,000 condos in my area for 50+ years.

2. Our association insures these homes.

3. The insurance company charges a set rate based on risk factors.

4. The risk factors are based on things like safety and historical data such as the number of claims.

5. Our association dues have not gone up considerably, nor has our Board of Directors sent us notice that we would have an increase due to the cost of insurance.

6. Insurance companies have some of the brightest minds working for them - they're the ones who come up with complex algorithms to determine premium cost. If you look at the profitability of insurance companies, you'll see they make a lot of money, hence it can be concluded that the people who determine premiums truly know what they're doing.

7. The logical conclusion is that these heaters must not pose a big risk, because if they did, there would be numerous claims and our insurance premiums would've gone up.

8. Or use the null hypothesis. Because of our heaters not being grounded, they are dangerous; many people are electrocuted and their homes catch fire.

9. To disprove #8 is easy. If #8 is true, then our insurance premium would be high.

10. If there were a reasonable risk, say 0.25% failure rate per year per heater, then we'd have over 100 insurance claims.

11. But we didn't have 100 claims, so drop it to 0.025% failure rate per year per heater and we'd have 10 insurance claims.

12. But we didn't have 10 claims, so drop it to 0.0025% failure rate per year per heater and we'd have 1 insurance claim.

13. But in the 50 years the condos have been there, I know we haven't had 50 claims. My guess would be 10, if even that many. So on the high side, 0.0005%.

You claim that I don't understand electrics. Well, I guess those dangerous heaters don't also, because over 50 years of service, they've proven you wrong.

And by the way, you never did tell me why I can hold a hot in one hand and not get shocked - you know, there are all these magical grounds all over the place, so shouldn't I get shocked? What am I missing? Or are you wrong?

You said:-

Wow, you just don't get it, do you?

I would have thought that only one person here "didn't get it" and we (except him!) all got "it", days ago!!

Also, many thought my blonde joke very fitting too!!! But do remember:-

Sayōnara = Japanese for Goodbye!

Not to be confused with Cyanide, which is Goodbye in any language......

Your response to my last post lets me know that you don't have a response to business and risk. My only recommendation is to stop exaggerating things to try to prove your point. You are not smarter or have better data than insurance companies and if you think you do, then why don't you open your own insurance company and prove them wrong?

You prove, yet again, with your post(s) to be even mote stubborn and ill informed than anyone here ever dreamed or thought you might be.

YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT, NO MATTER HOW LIMITED YOUR KNOWLEDGE IS, NO MATTER HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE POST, DETAILING THE REAL REASONS WHY ITS DANGEROUS, YOU HAVE TO BE RIGHT!

The people here are generally intelligent, with good knowledge, understanding and background on this and many other subjects.....it beats me why you came here at all!!!

On a personal level, sadly you come over as a possibly previously spoilt child, maybe an only child, maybe the "Baby" of the family, possibly.....

You also apparently fit the profile of a sociopath, online at least.......possibly not in real life.

Stay well, stay fit and I hope you manage to grow up before something serious happens!!! But that might be the only possible way for you to finally learn something useful!!!

I hope for you and your family, that this stubborn "streak" ONLY extends onto the IoT and not out into your "real" life.....that would be dreadful for them!!!

I'm off now, no point in flogging a dead horse!!

Re your #6:

Insurance companies do not pay claims resulting from negligence.

All one of the lawyers representing the insurer has to do is present a copy of the instructions provided by the seller for PROPER installation of the product.

GA

Fully correct.

To put it bluntly, in a worse case scenario:-

No payout with regard to any damage done to the building concerned, possible damage done to other nearby buildings, parked cars, people injured, people killed or the costs of the fire department and police!!!

Did I miss something?

Everywhere in your home is ground, whether it is enough to kill you on a given day is a crap shoot. A little moisture, a few trace minerals, even capacitive coupling of your ac house wiring is enough to make any perceived insulator a conductor. Just touching the live side of any circuit, either side of your heater, is all it takes.

GA

Well put, but I believe he will not understand you, or he is simply not "holding" enough brain cells to understand....One or the other.....

Either you, someone else and/or I have said this several times....already, I forget which....but its hardly important as he does not believe anyone at all, anyway!!!

Its a bit like the awful sexist blonde joke:-

Q."When has a Blonde a full set of brain cells, in good working order?"

A."When pregnant!"

Sadly, he cannot get pregnant!!

I appreciate your input. As someone who designs electric heating products, you have experience in the field.

You are correct that one of the 110V legs runs straight to the heater and a fault in the heater could make the entire unit hot. I thought about running a double pole thermostat, but I chose not to. Maybe a bad move - I'm not sure.

When you install the heated floors, where do you install the gfci? At the circuit breaker or do you install a gfci outlet ahead of the heater thermostat?

I want to thank everyone for their advice. Some is very theoretical, which may not be applicable to me, but it's nice to see how people here think. Some answers cited code and what should be done based on the code. Good information. Still other advice was based on a potential risk, something I wanted to know, but unfortunately, much didn't make sense, since there was some incorrect assumptions made. Still others felt the need to chastise me for doing something that they felt was unsafe, however I never understood the practical side of doing a fairly major modification when the risk is extremely low. I did try to explain that there have been very few, if any failures in 50+ years of these ungrounded heaters installed in the large number of condos in our complex. My condo has three of these heaters and not one has failed in 50 + years. I don't want to hear fear mongering; I want to hear good advice and facts.

I do want to thank everyone for their advice and if there is anything else you can add to help the situation, please do so.

GA

You make a very valid point for ANY normal person..........

I looked around a bit using similar search arguments to yours and I found a problem with them that I do believe nobody here has taken into account and did not result because of a bad or missing ground, but killed anyway:-

Baseboard-heater-blamed-for-fatal-Md-fire

Smoke alarms might have prevented the tragedies.....

Here also:-

http://www.summitdaily.com/news/baseboard-heaters-cause-recent-fire/

Back to electrocution:-

Milwaukee-infant-electrocuted-after-sleeping-in-bed-with-mom-another-child-due to Baseboard heater

Here is interesting, and I believe applicable to this blog:-

5-reasons-to-replace-your-wall-outlets/

Go down to the paragraph labelled:-

Stuck with 1980s Technology?
(that's like the Middle Ages in today-speak)

Also:-

Woman Killed in old Condo with no proper ground wiring

Here is some good and sensible information with regard to Thermostats, where it states clearly that two pole are needed for 220-240VAC installs of heaters:-

http://www.king-electric.com/pdfs/TSTAT_ES_instructions.pdf

Oh my goodness! I quit! If it makes you feel better; You win. I'm done.